Am I A Cheap Charlie If I Don't Tip?

[Naam]

Agreed. The CCs have kept this thread alive coming up with all sorts of nonsense excuses for not tipping. The list is quite staggering. I think they feel the need to justify themselves and their niggardly behaviour however they are not fooling anybody but themselves. Deep down they know they are CCs and we do too.

[transam]

Agreed. The CCs have kept this thread alive coming up with all sorts of nonsense excuses for not tipping. The list is quite staggering. I think they feel the need to justify themselves and their niggardly behaviour however they are not fooling anybody but themselves. Deep down they know they are CCs and we do too.

Hmmmmmmm, suppose l must not agree. I said before that l always tip BUT, my mrs at times says DO NOT TIP HERE, they have not looked after us, they have NOT shown US a good service.

[Jayman]

Agreed. The CCs have kept this thread alive coming up with all sorts of nonsense excuses for not tipping. The list is quite staggering. I think they feel the need to justify themselves and their niggardly behaviour however they are not fooling anybody but themselves. Deep down they know they are CCs and we do too.

Hmmmmmmm, suppose l must not agree. I said before that l always tip BUT, my mrs at times says DO NOT TIP HERE, they have not looked after us, they have NOT shown US a good service.

If the service was undeserving of a tip then that is a statement you are making to the massage girl by not giving her one. That is certainly not the "norm" but the exception. If the norm was to not give tips at the local massage parlors then the prices would all go up accordingly as those girls would not work for such small change to rub on your feet for an hour.

To be clear, tipping at the massage parlor is expected but it is NOT mandatory. Just as getting a good massage is expected but not mandatory.

Edited November 26, 2012 by Jayman

[poanoi]

Agreed. The CCs have kept this thread alive coming up with all sorts of nonsense excuses for not tipping. The list is quite staggering. I think they feel the need to justify themselves and their niggardly behaviour however they are not fooling anybody but themselves. Deep down they know they are CCs and we do too.

Hmmmmmmm, suppose l must not agree. I said before that l always tip BUT, my mrs at times says DO NOT TIP HERE, they have not looked after us, they have NOT shown US a good service.

If the service was undeserving of a tip then that is a statement you are making to the massage girl by not giving her one. That is certainly not the "norm" but the exception. If the norm was to not give tips at the local massage parlors then the prices would all go up accordingly as those girls would not work for such small change to rub on your feet for an hour.

To be clear, tipping at the massage parlor is expected but it is NOT mandatory. Just as getting a good massage is expected but not mandatory.

Thanks, i finally got the rationale why americans are tipping,

and why they think its impolite not to tip, even if i think the whole theory is warped.

In thailand, and where i come from, there is no statement in paying the bill, (without tip)

it is just doing your part of the deal.

And tipping is also not expected outside tourist tracks & at cheaper places,

but are expected from tourists, and are expected at expensive places

[transam]

Agreed. The CCs have kept this thread alive coming up with all sorts of nonsense excuses for not tipping. The list is quite staggering. I think they feel the need to justify themselves and their niggardly behaviour however they are not fooling anybody but themselves. Deep down they know they are CCs and we do too.

Hmmmmmmm, suppose l must not agree. I said before that l always tip BUT, my mrs at times says DO NOT TIP HERE, they have not looked after us, they have NOT shown US a good service.

If the service was undeserving of a tip then that is a statement you are making to the massage girl by not giving her one. That is certainly not the "norm" but the exception. If the norm was to not give tips at the local massage parlors then the prices would all go up accordingly as those girls would not work for such small change to rub on your feet for an hour.

To be clear, tipping at the massage parlor is expected but it is NOT mandatory. Just as getting a good massage is expected but not mandatory.

I was talking about grub.

[Jayman]

[Hmmmmmmm, suppose l must not agree. I said before that l always tip BUT, my mrs at times says DO NOT TIP HERE, they have not looked after us, they have NOT shown US a good service.

If the service was undeserving of a tip then that is a statement you are making to the massage girl by not giving her one. That is certainly not the "norm" but the exception. If the norm was to not give tips at the local massage parlors then the prices would all go up accordingly as those girls would not work for such small change to rub on your feet for an hour.

To be clear, tipping at the massage parlor is expected but it is NOT mandatory. Just as getting a good massage is expected but not mandatory.

I was talking about grub.

ohh.. then you're in the wrong thread

[rgs2001uk]

I was going to pass on this thread as I figured it would simply degenerate into another tipping vs non-tipping debate and it could easily get off track in that regard. The OP's question was about a specific situation and has nothing to do about tipping gas station attendants, tipping the postman or Santa Claus, tipping in Issarn or what Thais tip. We are in the tourist town of Pattaya whether some poor retiree likes it or not. The check bin was for 99 baht (< 2 GBP or 3 USD), the worker was likely to get a fraction of that and yet some people can not feel it in their heart to leave a tip. I do not understand why some people seem to get satisfaction is exploiting the situation of others. So yes, Dear OP, you are a Cheap Charlie (but you knew that) and that is being overly polite.

Agreed. The CCs have kept this thread alive coming up with all sorts of nonsense excuses for not tipping. The list is quite staggering. I think they feel the need to justify themselves and their niggardly behaviour however they are not fooling anybody but themselves. Deep down they know they are CCs and we do too.

Up to you as they say.

Am I a CC if I go to 7 and buy a bottle of JWB for 1,000 baht and not give a 100 baht tip?

If I build a house for 5 million baht and not give a tip of say 5% or 250k baht to the builder, am I a CC?

When my mrs bought her 1 million baht car I didnt see her give a tip, is she a CC?

A couple of months ago I was on the piss with with my friend, the bill came to 4,000 baht, accordining to farang protocol I should have given anywhere from 400 to 800 baht as a tip, the fact that I didnt does it make me a CC?

You are godammed right I am a CC, if the service sucks so can the dek serf, I tip when and according to good service, not as a rule and not because some upcountry dek serf dicatates I should, neither because some CC farang employs staff and doesnt pay them a decent wage.

Best you get out into the real thailand, or are you only a 2 week millionaire?

I dont see the Thais in Surin or Buriram throwing their money around on tips, YMMV.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

We are in the tourist town of Pattaya whether some poor retiree likes it or not. The check bin was for 99 baht (< 2 GBP or 3 USD), the worker was likely to get a fraction of that and yet some people can not feel it in their heart to leave a tip.

I dont quite see what the geographical location has to do with anything. Should I tip heavily here but give nothing in Sattahip, because the latter isn't a tourist town? Indeed one would expect the staff in Pattaya to be earning more than those elsewhere (and hence having less need of a tip), simply because there are more well-off clients around here buying more expensive drinks or meals or whatever.

At the same time I dont see why I should feel obliged to leave huge tips here just because some Americans think it's "normal" to do so. By my European standards tipping is not normal at all, it is exceptional.

[Jayman]

In order to get a better understand of how different ppl of the world view tipping I went to wiki

http://en.wikipedia....i/Tip_(gratuity)

The one thing that really surprised me is

Tipping is not the norm in Australia. The minimum wage in Australia is generally $15.96 per hour ($19 for casual employees)[35] and this is fairly standard across all types of venues.

I had no idea the min wage in Australia was so high. No wonder they don't tip and have the attitude of "I pay for a service what I'm asked".

But in the US for example the minimum wage (varies by state) goes from $4-$8 an hour and sometimes jobs that get regular tips are able to pay less than minimum wage based on the fact that tips will be added into the wage. A very unfair practice indeed.

I think the point still needs to come down to how much the person performing the work is being paid for the work performed. If you are the customer want to bury your head in the sand and say "I'm not responsible for paying the wages of the person performing the services on me, the boss is." Then I think this is a cop-out. If you know that the person whom is performing a service on/for you is being paid substandard wages for said service and you don't feel the need to tip them for their service then I think that says something about your character. No one is forcing you to exploit that person. You make the choices. If you can live with it then fine. It does seem like some have a conscience and that is why they come here looking for acceptance for not tipping.

Also found this article on the origins of tipping interesting

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/301/what-is-the-origin-of-tipping

Tipping spread from England to colonial America, but after the revolution it was frowned upon (temporarily) as a hangover from the British class system. One only tipped one's social inferiors, which, lest we forget, did not exist in the brave new world. Unfortunately, the working class eventually got around to swallowing its pride, and tipping returned with all the fervor it possesses today.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Jayman

[gmac]

In order to get a better understand of how different ppl of the world view tipping I went to wiki

http://en.wikipedia....i/Tip_(gratuity)

The one thing that really surprised me is

Tipping is not the norm in Australia. The minimum wage in Australia is generally $15.96 per hour ($19 for casual employees)[35] and this is fairly standard across all types of venues.

I had no idea the min wage in Australia was so high. No wonder they don't tip and have the attitude of "I pay for a service what I'm asked".

But in the US for example the minimum wage (varies by state) goes from $4-$8 an hour and sometimes jobs that get regular tips are able to pay less than minimum wage based on the fact that tips will be added into the wage. A very unfair practice indeed.

I think the point still needs to come down to how much the person performing the work is being paid for the work performed. If you are the customer want to bury your head in the sand and say "I'm not responsible for paying the wages of the person performing the services on me, the boss is." Then I think this is a cop-out. If you know that the person whom is performing a service on/for you is being paid substandard wages for said service and you don't feel the need to tip them for their service then I think that says something about your character. No one is forcing you to exploit that person. You make the choices. If you can live with it then fine. It does seem like some have a conscience and that is why they come here looking for acceptance for not tipping.

Also found this article on the origins of tipping interesting

http://www.straightd...igin-of-tipping

Tipping spread from England to colonial America, but after the revolution it was frowned upon (temporarily) as a hangover from the British class system. One only tipped one's social inferiors, which, lest we forget, did not exist in the brave new world. Unfortunately, the working class eventually got around to swallowing its pride, and tipping returned with all the fervor it possesses today.

Try this one then Jayman, if I don't have enough money to afford a massage at a high price but see one advertised at a low rate which I can just about manage should I say no I won't have that massage because the workers are being exploited. For the poorer people of this world not tipping excessively is not a cop-out it is survival.

[poanoi]

I think what you should say is, supply met demand.

[foxboy]

As an Englishman I am embarrassed by some of my countrymen's comments on here. Suggesting that tipping is not our custom, so should not be observed here either. What nonsense!

In my country I cannot get a full body massage for £2. In fact I think I'd struggle to get one in most of Thailand at that price!

You KNOW these girls rely on tips, so if you can't afford to tip, don't go. After all, a massage is a luxury, not a necessity.

[poanoi]

What a moronic logic,

if we dont go, they get no income.

and btw, for many it isnt luxury either, it is a necessity if we want to be able to walk

Edited November 27, 2012 by poanoi

[Woody1]

What a moronic logic,

if we dont go, they get no income.

and btw, for many it isnt luxury either, it is a necessity if we want to be able to walk

So you begrudge tipping someone that enables you to keep walking??

Just taken being a CC to a whole new level Mate

Keep your 50 Baht hum bug!

[rgs2001uk]

As an Englishman I am embarrassed by some of my countrymen's comments on here. Suggesting that tipping is not our custom, so should not be observed here either. What nonsense!

In my country I cannot get a full body massage for £2. In fact I think I'd struggle to get one in most of Thailand at that price!

You KNOW these girls rely on tips, so if you can't afford to tip, don't go. After all, a massage is a luxury, not a necessity.

Well we aint in Kansas anymore, we are here.

I live here and and think in baht terms, I stopped thinking in farang terms years ago.

As for struggling to get 100 baht massages in the rest of Thailand, you should get out more.

Here goes, try On Nut in Bkk just behind Big C, try Bang Kapi market again in Bkk, try Chatuchak 2 in Min Buri, try Wat Sri Beun Ruang temple right beside the pier,again in Bkk.

I know a husband and wife team who do 100 baht masages, they do no more than 6 each per day, they tell me its too tiring if they do more.

They take at least 36k per month between them, the rent and electric bill is 6k per month, leaving a profit of 30k per month, add on extra profits from selling, gells, creams and balms.

These people are not reliant on tips (although they are tipped), however I dare say if another 6 shops opened up beside them as is the usual Thai copycat business model then yes they may have problems

[Jayman]

As an Englishman I am embarrassed by some of my countrymen's comments on here. Suggesting that tipping is not our custom, so should not be observed here either. What nonsense!

In my country I cannot get a full body massage for £2. In fact I think I'd struggle to get one in most of Thailand at that price!

You KNOW these girls rely on tips, so if you can't afford to tip, don't go. After all, a massage is a luxury, not a necessity.

Well we aint in Kansas anymore, we are here.

I live here and and think in baht terms, I stopped thinking in farang terms years ago.

As for struggling to get 100 baht massages in the rest of Thailand, you should get out more.

Here goes, try On Nut in Bkk just behind Big C, try Bang Kapi market again in Bkk, try Chatuchak 2 in Min Buri, try Wat Sri Beun Ruang temple right beside the pier,again in Bkk.

I know a husband and wife team who do 100 baht masages, they do no more than 6 each per day, they tell me its too tiring if they do more.

They take at least 36k per month between them, the rent and electric bill is 6k per month, leaving a profit of 30k per month, add on extra profits from selling, gells, creams and balms.

These people are not reliant on tips (although they are tipped), however I dare say if another 6 shops opened up beside them as is the usual Thai copycat business model then yes they may have problems

Yes I agree that those that get the entire fee are in a different category than the girls working for a partial portion of the fee. I bet those girls don't get 30k a month.

I also agree that more than 6 a day for them would be exhausting This goes to show how much energy is needed for a massage.

[Jayman]

Try this one then Jayman, if I don't have enough money to afford a massage at a high price but see one advertised at a low rate which I can just about manage should I say no I won't have that massage because the workers are being exploited. For the poorer people of this world not tipping excessively is not a cop-out it is survival.

Certainly you will have to make that decision if you are ok with being part of the exploitation of others for your own needs. If you are asking for my approval, you won't get it. I'm sure there are many posters here that would say it's just fine to exploit others for our own needs though.

[gmac]

Try this one then Jayman, if I don't have enough money to afford a massage at a high price but see one advertised at a low rate which I can just about manage should I say no I won't have that massage because the workers are being exploited. For the poorer people of this world not tipping excessively is not a cop-out it is survival.

Certainly you will have to make that decision if you are ok with being part of the exploitation of others for your own needs. If you are asking for my approval, you won't get it. I'm sure there are many posters here that would say it's just fine to exploit others for our own needs though.

Fortunately I am not looking for anyones approval merely find this thread fascinating as the opposing camps lay out their arguments. Personally I have only once had a Thai massage, it hurt like hell, and I have no wish to repeat the experience!

[transam]

I think the Thai massage at girlie places is rubbish. I know a couple of girls who had a few hours tuition and away they went to earn a few bht.

We go to a Temple now and again where the job is done by mainly blind folk . 80 bht an hour, l think, so they are happy with 100 bht.

[poanoi]

Yes, that is probably true, my gf became better after a week of instructions & practice,

and i save myself 200 baht + tip.

I would probably still go once in a while if the price was cheaper,

but if the cost is >100 baht, i rather spend my hard earned money on beer & cigars

[tropo]

Thanks, i finally got the rationale why americans are tipping,

and why they think its impolite not to tip, even if i think the whole theory is warped.

I think the reason why Americans are obliged to tip is because there, in restaurants and other service industries the wage is low and staff rely on tips to make up their wages. It's the system, for better or worse. At least it encourages staff to really put out because if they don't get a tip they don't make a living wage.

In Australia restaurant staff are paid a full wage (by law) and tipping is not necessary. The government Tourism Authority campaigns against tipping in Australia because they don't want to follow America's system.

The problem for businesses in Pattaya is that tourists are from all over the world. Many tourists here come from countries which don't have a tipping culture. I'm sure the massage ladies don't get tips from Middle Eastern tourists or Indians (to site a few examples).

If they want to open a business which cannot profit without tips, that's their problem, not yours. Tip if you want, don't tip if you want. Up to you.There's no reason to feel bad if you don't.

Edited November 27, 2012 by tropo

[poanoi]

I was told by american friends that resturant staff are taxed on their perceived tip,

making tipping a voluntary tax

[ThaiBob]

Thanks, i finally got the rationale why americans are tipping,

and why they think its impolite not to tip, even if i think the whole theory is warped.

I think the reason why Americans are obliged to tip is because there, in restaurants and other service industries the wage is low and staff rely on tips to make up their wages. It's the system, for better or worse. At least it encourages staff to really put out because if they don't get a tip they don't make a living wage.

In Australia restaurant staff are paid a full wage (by law) and tipping is not necessary. The government Tourism Authority campaigns against tipping in Australia because they don't want to follow America's system.

The problem for businesses in Pattaya is that tourists are from all over the world. Many tourists here come from countries which don't have a tipping culture. I'm sure the massage ladies don't get tips from Middle Eastern tourists or Indians (to site a few examples).

If they want to open a business which cannot profit without tips, that's their problem, not yours. Tip if you want, don't tip if you want. Up to you.There's no reason to feel bad if you don't.

The plight of the American food and restaurant worker (etc) is the same as that of the poor Thai worker we have been talking about. Minimum wage (if lucky), no medical, no pension, just like their Thai counterpart (who must work 6 days a week). In USA, employers like Walmart deliberately reduce hours so the employee is not considered full-time and then becomes a burden on the taxpayer (food-stamps, etc.) to make ends meet. Compare that to the GB and European worker who live in socialized countries with living wages and benefits protected by law. A recent Rick Stebes tour the instruction to the tourist while traveling in Europe was not to tip in restaurants because workers had a good wage and benefits. I can understand the resistance of some Europeans not to tip because I do not think they truly understand the situation. If they did, I hope they would have change of heart because it is exploitation no matter how one tries to spin it. Yes you Americans, you should feel bad and shame on you if you do not tip.

[Jayman]

Thanks, i finally got the rationale why americans are tipping,

and why they think its impolite not to tip, even if i think the whole theory is warped.

I think the reason why Americans are obliged to tip is because there, in restaurants and other service industries the wage is low and staff rely on tips to make up their wages. It's the system, for better or worse. At least it encourages staff to really put out because if they don't get a tip they don't make a living wage.

In Australia restaurant staff are paid a full wage (by law) and tipping is not necessary. The government Tourism Authority campaigns against tipping in Australia because they don't want to follow America's system.

The problem for businesses in Pattaya is that tourists are from all over the world. Many tourists here come from countries which don't have a tipping culture. I'm sure the massage ladies don't get tips from Middle Eastern tourists or Indians (to site a few examples).

If they want to open a business which cannot profit without tips, that's their problem, not yours. Tip if you want, don't tip if you want. Up to you.There's no reason to feel bad if you don't.

The plight of the American food and restaurant worker (etc) is the same as that of the poor Thai worker we have been talking about. Minimum wage (if lucky), no medical, no pension, just like their Thai counterpart (who must work 6 days a week). In USA, employers like Walmart deliberately reduce hours so the employee is not considered full-time and then becomes a burden on the taxpayer (food-stamps, etc.) to make ends meet. Compare that to the GB and European worker who live in socialized countries with living wages and benefits protected by law. A recent Rick Stebes tour the instruction to the tourist while traveling in Europe was not to tip in restaurants because workers had a good wage and benefits. I can understand the resistance of some Europeans not to tip because I do not think they truly understand the situation. If they did, I hope they would have change of heart because it is exploitation no matter how one tries to spin it. Yes you Americans, you should feel bad and shame on you if you do not tip.

So only Americans should feel bad about not tipping in a Thai massage parlor? Maybe I misunderstood your logic on this. It's because non Americans are too ignorant to realize the exploitation of the workers that is going on? Is that what you are trying to say?

[ThaiBob]

Thanks, i finally got the rationale why americans are tipping,

and why they think its impolite not to tip, even if i think the whole theory is warped.

I think the reason why Americans are obliged to tip is because there, in restaurants and other service industries the wage is low and staff rely on tips to make up their wages. It's the system, for better or worse. At least it encourages staff to really put out because if they don't get a tip they don't make a living wage.

In Australia restaurant staff are paid a full wage (by law) and tipping is not necessary. The government Tourism Authority campaigns against tipping in Australia because they don't want to follow America's system.

The problem for businesses in Pattaya is that tourists are from all over the world. Many tourists here come from countries which don't have a tipping culture. I'm sure the massage ladies don't get tips from Middle Eastern tourists or Indians (to site a few examples).

If they want to open a business which cannot profit without tips, that's their problem, not yours. Tip if you want, don't tip if you want. Up to you.There's no reason to feel bad if you don't.

The plight of the American food and restaurant worker (etc) is the same as that of the poor Thai worker we have been talking about. Minimum wage (if lucky), no medical, no pension, just like their Thai counterpart (who must work 6 days a week). In USA, employers like Walmart deliberately reduce hours so the employee is not considered full-time and then becomes a burden on the taxpayer (food-stamps, etc.) to make ends meet. Compare that to the GB and European worker who live in socialized countries with living wages and benefits protected by law. A recent Rick Stebes tour the instruction to the tourist while traveling in Europe was not to tip in restaurants because workers had a good wage and benefits. I can understand the resistance of some Europeans not to tip because I do not think they truly understand the situation. If they did, I hope they would have change of heart because it is exploitation no matter how one tries to spin it. Yes you Americans, you should feel bad and shame on you if you do not tip.

So only Americans should feel bad about not tipping in a Thai massage parlor? Maybe I misunderstood your logic on this. It's because non Americans are too ignorant to realize the exploitation of the workers that is going on? Is that what you are trying to say?

No, that was not my intent. The original massage tip message kind of got lost as the tipping discussion expanded (my fear). Both Americans and many non Americans are in fact ignorant of the exploitation of workers and I, as an American, was hoping better from my countrymen. I do understand the diverse makeup of the Pattaya tourist population and why some nationalities (Japanese, Indian, etc.) do not tip because it it not part of their culture. Those nationalities need to be educated when in a tourist town like Pattaya. By the way, I have been told the Russians do give nice tips.

[Jayman]

I think the reason why Americans are obliged to tip is because there, in restaurants and other service industries the wage is low and staff rely on tips to make up their wages. It's the system, for better or worse. At least it encourages staff to really put out because if they don't get a tip they don't make a living wage.

In Australia restaurant staff are paid a full wage (by law) and tipping is not necessary. The government Tourism Authority campaigns against tipping in Australia because they don't want to follow America's system.

The problem for businesses in Pattaya is that tourists are from all over the world. Many tourists here come from countries which don't have a tipping culture. I'm sure the massage ladies don't get tips from Middle Eastern tourists or Indians (to site a few examples).

If they want to open a business which cannot profit without tips, that's their problem, not yours. Tip if you want, don't tip if you want. Up to you.There's no reason to feel bad if you don't.

The plight of the American food and restaurant worker (etc) is the same as that of the poor Thai worker we have been talking about. Minimum wage (if lucky), no medical, no pension, just like their Thai counterpart (who must work 6 days a week). In USA, employers like Walmart deliberately reduce hours so the employee is not considered full-time and then becomes a burden on the taxpayer (food-stamps, etc.) to make ends meet. Compare that to the GB and European worker who live in socialized countries with living wages and benefits protected by law. A recent Rick Stebes tour the instruction to the tourist while traveling in Europe was not to tip in restaurants because workers had a good wage and benefits. I can understand the resistance of some Europeans not to tip because I do not think they truly understand the situation. If they did, I hope they would have change of heart because it is exploitation no matter how one tries to spin it. Yes you Americans, you should feel bad and shame on you if you do not tip.

So only Americans should feel bad about not tipping in a Thai massage parlor? Maybe I misunderstood your logic on this. It's because non Americans are too ignorant to realize the exploitation of the workers that is going on? Is that what you are trying to say?

No, that was not my intent. The original massage tip message kind of got lost as the tipping discussion expanded (my fear). Both Americans and many non Americans are in fact ignorant of the exploitation of workers and I, as an American, was hoping better from my countrymen. I do understand the diverse makeup of the Pattaya tourist population and why some nationalities (Japanese, Indian, etc.) do not tip because it it not part of their culture. Those nationalities need to be educated when in a tourist town like Pattaya. By the way, I have been told the Russians do give nice tips.

Ok.. sounds like we are on the same page and in agreement on this.

[Ulysses G.]

I can understand the resistance of some Europeans not to tip because I do not think they truly understand the situation.

Maybe, but some are just skinflints.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[Trevor25222]

What about tipping reception staff in cheap hotels or guest houses who leave a tip-box on the desk? Such semi-skilled staff should be getting more like a living wage compared to masseuses or waitresses.

I do tip mae baan (chambermaids) in the hope I get a cleaner room and my belongings remain unmolested. Also the reception staff if they are genuine and helpful.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

You should ask for permission before using my photo.

[tropo]

No, that was not my intent. The original massage tip message kind of got lost as the tipping discussion expanded (my fear). Both Americans and many non Americans are in fact ignorant of the exploitation of workers and I, as an American, was hoping better from my countrymen. I do understand the diverse makeup of the Pattaya tourist population and why some nationalities (Japanese, Indian, etc.) do not tip because it it not part of their culture. Those nationalities need to be educated when in a tourist town like Pattaya. By the way, I have been told the Russians do give nice tips.

This is an interesting side to the discussion - "exploitation".

I think most tourists come to Pattaya because it is cheaper than back at home, and the main difference is due to labour being cheaper. Are we "exploiting" people by coming here?

Even if you leave a decent tip (say 100%. for example) you could still be guilty of "exploiting" if you compare the price to the price of a massage back at home.

Perhaps we need a calculator which takes into consideration the cost of living and an estimate of a Thai worker's average daily income to aid in the decision of how much to tip lest we become guilty of "exploitation".

Perhaps some people leave relatively big tips to appease their guilt. I think it is probably safer for people who suffer from this type of guilt to stay at home.

The truth be known, 99% of these massage ladies are looking for some foreigner to exploit and the job is merely a front. They don't really care about the tips or salary because they're really just waiting for Mr. Right to come inside. Sure, they'll appreciate some beer money from generous foreigners who feel guilty, but they have their sights set on greater goals.