Palestinian Missile Hits Jerusalem's Outskirts

[Chicog]

But why Hamas send homemade rocket to Israel, what is the reason?

From their point of view, they're resisting an occupation, a land grab and a war of attrition.

Whether that is an effective response is another matter.

In my view, it isn't, neither is Israel's response to it.

I believe it simply very much improves the chances of a nuclear or dirty bomb being detonated in Tel Aviv down the line.

[Jingthing]

But why Hamas send homemade rocket to Israel, what is the reason?

From their point of view, they're resisting an occupation, a land grab and a war of attrition.

Whether that is an effective response is another matter.

In my view, it isn't, neither is Israel's response to it.

I believe it simply very much improves the chances of a nuclear or dirty bomb being detonated in Tel Aviv down the line.

Hamas leadership is on record as opposing the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. They are not seeking a two state solution. They are seeking the overthrow (kill / throw out / what have you) of the Jews of Israel and a takeover of all Israeli land from Israeli control. Also, they have Iranian made missiles now which can reach well into Israel so it is a very good thing that Israel now has a mostly effective American sourced missile defense system. Edited November 18, 2012 by Jingthing

[lemoncake]

Someone said that the ratio of Palestinians killed compared to Israeli's, doesn't seem right.

If Hamas demands 250 prisoners for 1 Israeli prisoner, then they have set the ratio of worth...they should remember that.

An absolutely nonsense post. How many Israeli prisoners are held by Hamas? And how many Palestinian prisoners,( including children, some kept in chains with no access to lawyers), are held by Israel? You make an absolutely ridiculous analogy, which illustrates the depth of ignorance and bigotry held by the cheerleaders of Israel.

YOu right, Hamas does not hold prisoners, they just kill

Edited November 18, 2012 by lemoncake

[Chicog]

But why Hamas send homemade rocket to Israel, what is the reason?

From their point of view, they're resisting an occupation, a land grab and a war of attrition.

Whether that is an effective response is another matter.

In my view, it isn't, neither is Israel's response to it.

I believe it simply very much improves the chances of a nuclear or dirty bomb being detonated in Tel Aviv down the line.

Hamas leadership is on record as opposing the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. They are not seeking a two state solution. They are seeking the overthrow (kill / throw out / what have you) of the Jews of Israel and a takeover of all Israeli land from Jewish control. Also, they have Iranian made missiles now which can reach well into Israel so it is a very good thing that Israel now has a mostly effective American sourced missile defense system.

Forget the rhetoric, there is a peaceful solution here if the Israelis want it, most Palestinians are like you or I, they want a roof over their head and food for their families. If Israeli tried the olive branch instead of the oppression, things could change very quickly, we saw how it worked in Northern Ireland. Most of the dinosaurs are gone.

As for the defense system, is it American sourced? They might have paid for it, but their Patriot system is ineffective against small rockets. (In fact it wasn't that effective against big ones).

Edited November 18, 2012 by Chicog

[Jingthing]

But why Hamas send homemade rocket to Israel, what is the reason?

From their point of view, they're resisting an occupation, a land grab and a war of attrition.

Whether that is an effective response is another matter.

In my view, it isn't, neither is Israel's response to it.

I believe it simply very much improves the chances of a nuclear or dirty bomb being detonated in Tel Aviv down the line.

Hamas leadership is on record as opposing the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. They are not seeking a two state solution. They are seeking the overthrow (kill / throw out / what have you) of the Jews of Israel and a takeover of all Israeli land from Jewish control. Also, they have Iranian made missiles now which can reach well into Israel so it is a very good thing that Israel now has a mostly effective American sourced missile defense system.

Forget the rhetoric, there is a peaceful solution here if the Israelis want it, most Palestinians are like you or I, they want a roof over their head and food for their families. If Israeli tried the olive branch instead of the oppression, things could change very quickly, we saw how it worked in Northern Ireland. Most of the dinosaurs are gone.

As for the defense system, is it American sourced? They might have paid for it, but their Patriot system is ineffective against small rockets. (In fact it wasn't that effective against big ones).

Wasn't kicking out the Jewish settlers in Gaza with massive force by the IDF an olive branch to the Palestinians?

I appreciate your idealism but I ain't buying it. I think the situation is much more hopeless than you do. I've been wanting a two state solution there since I was a young boy. It seems much more remote than ever now. Yes, more hopeless from BOTH sides (both sides have hardened). I follow more progressive Israeli public opinion closely but the reality is in Israel they have almost no power.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Jingthing

[chuckd]

And the merry-go-round continues.

[Samuimike1]

But the settler from Gaza bild new illegal settlements on Palestine land.

[Jingthing]

But the settler from Gaza bild new illegal settlements on Palestine land.

They're not building anything in Gaza. The topic is about the current military conflict between Israel and Hamas ruled Gaza. Edited November 18, 2012 by Jingthing

[Steely Dan]

Take the following as you will. It's from a stock market commentator so much of what he writes is not directly relevant here. He also comes from the opposite side of the political divide to me so he puts the blame for the current violence on Israel assassinating a Hamas leader whilst conveniently forgetting to mention the 300 or so rockets fired into Israel prior to this. He does however give some predictions with dates and percentage probabilities with which I'm broadly in agreement. This is all within a 3 months time scale so lets start at the top with a ground invasion of Gaza. There is of course the possibility that rocket fire from Gaza had no external trigger, or indeed may have been at Egypt's bidding not Iran's, we shall see.

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article37585.html

The probability of an Israeli ground invasion of Gaza - 90%.

An invasion of Lebanon - 70%

An conventional attack on Iran's nuclear infrastructure before the end of January 2013 - 65%.

Use of tactical nuclear weapons on Iran's deep under ground nuclear infrastructure - 40%.

Probability that Iran will do a deal with the US / UN and disarm before being attacked - 20%.

[simple1]

Use of tactical nuclear weapons on Iran's deep under ground nuclear infrastructure - 40%.

I have to admit that would look very hypocritical.

As in We ( Israel) who have how many nukes none know, as we allow no inspections,

nor do we sign any nuclear non proliferation treaties.

We shall use a nuke on your country based on our demands that you not have a nuke

& based on our suspicions that you may be trying to have what we have many times over.

Yes somehow it just comes across badly.

Firstly i do not believe Israel would use a first strike tactical nuclear weapon on Iran, the US would never permit such an action.

I do not recall Israeli leaders saying they wish to wipe Iran off the map, as have Iranian leaders said about Israel. If you are in Israeli shoes you would not permit Iran to possess nuclear war heads. It would be straight forward for Iran to allow IAEA inspections to reduce tensions and to allay Israeli and the international community concerns

EDIT: A very interesting review of rational versus irrational States with nuclear capability in the context of Israel & Iran at:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/159599#.UKig2Gdacgo

Edited November 18, 2012 by simple1

[Morch]

Take the following as you will. It's from a stock market commentator so much of what he writes is not directly relevant here. He also comes from the opposite side of the political divide to me so he puts the blame for the current violence on Israel assassinating a Hamas leader whilst conveniently forgetting to mention the 300 or so rockets fired into Israel prior to this. He does however give some predictions with dates and percentage probabilities with which I'm broadly in agreement. This is all within a 3 months time scale so lets start at the top with a ground invasion of Gaza. There is of course the possibility that rocket fire from Gaza had no external trigger, or indeed may have been at Egypt's bidding not Iran's, we shall see.

http://www.marketora...ticle37585.html

The probability of an Israeli ground invasion of Gaza - 90%.

An invasion of Lebanon - 70%

An conventional attack on Iran's nuclear infrastructure before the end of January 2013 - 65%.

Use of tactical nuclear weapons on Iran's deep under ground nuclear infrastructure - 40%.

Probability that Iran will do a deal with the US / UN and disarm before being attacked - 20%.

Take the following as you will. It's from a stock market commentator so much of what he writes is not directly relevant here. He also comes from the opposite side of the political divide to me so he puts the blame for the current violence on Israel assassinating a Hamas leader whilst conveniently forgetting to mention the 300 or so rockets fired into Israel prior to this. He does however give some predictions with dates and percentage probabilities with which I'm broadly in agreement. This is all within a 3 months time scale so lets start at the top with a ground invasion of Gaza. There is of course the possibility that rocket fire from Gaza had no external trigger, or indeed may have been at Egypt's bidding not Iran's, we shall see.

http://www.marketora...ticle37585.html

The probability of an Israeli ground invasion of Gaza - 90%.

An invasion of Lebanon - 70%

An conventional attack on Iran's nuclear infrastructure before the end of January 2013 - 65%.

Use of tactical nuclear weapons on Iran's deep under ground nuclear infrastructure - 40%.

Probability that Iran will do a deal with the US / UN and disarm before being attacked - 20%.

Yet to see ANY long term complex plan fall into place in the Middle East.

Even smaller scale stuff doesn't seem to go as intended.

I wouldn't put money in the bank the IDF will not go marching on Gaza, but the rumors about ceasefire talks are here much earlier than on previous times. Using the military operation as an election tool? Maybe, but then again - it's effective as such only if it appears successful, and even then not always works in the government's favor.

[Jingthing]

But the settler from Gaza bild new illegal settlements on Palestine land.

They're not building anything in Gaza. The topic is about the current military conflict between Israel and Hamas ruled Gaza.

He means that the settlers that were forced to leave Gaza went and built illegal settlements in the West Bank. And that IS part of what the conflict is all about.

If Israel wants to resolve the conflict, they can withdraw to the '67 border, move the wall to that line and allow Palestinians to have their own nation.

If they don't, we'll be reading about the conflict for ?infinity. The Anglo Irish conflict lasted over 600 years, and only ended when the occupiers ( Britain ) negotiated in good faith with the IRA.

What will the Palestinians offer in return? Acceptance of Israel's right to exist as Jewish state? Dropping the demand of right of return of Palestinians into Israel? Please let us all know when the Palestinians have a coherent unified government and are ready to make that kind of credible offer.

[Scott]

For those of you who have ignored previous warnings to stay on-topic, you will find your post has disappeared. For those of you that quoted those posts, they too have disappeared.

This is a developing situation. I think we can dispense with ancient historical lectures and speculation on Iran.

The next few days may shed more light on the topic, until then confine your posts to the immediate situation ONLY.

[asiawatcher]

Wow, some of the statements offered are a crazen attempt to deceive. Let's have a look shall we?

1. The simply fact of the matter is that nobody is supply arms to the Palistinians.

Really? Then you need to get Hamas, Iran and the PLA to fall in line with your statement. All have made public statements that there is indeed support, both in money and arms. The Israelis have intercepted naval shipments of arms going from Iran to to Hamas.

If no one is supplying arms to Hamas, how then does Hamas have Iranian, North Korean and Chinese sourced weapons? Are they manna from the sky?

2. Same evidence the US put forward for WMD - all bullshit.

Nope. Vey different. Why would Hamas have been in such a tizzy when its arms supplier in the Sudan was eliminated?

Why would Mr. Abbas the Fatah dictator make claims about Iran's support of Hamas?

Do you remember the 2009 arms seizure in Thailand? Thai authorities confiscated 35 tons of weapons, including missiles and explosives .A Russian plane was seized during a refueling stop in Bangkok on is way from North Korea to Iran. The arms were consistent with those used by Hamas and Hizbollah.

3. I am sure there are quite a few members here who know Iranians and I am one of them. They are some of the most polite fun loving people

I have ever met and a generally high standard of living and education.

You are referring to the Iranians that have fled or emigrated from Iran. If they were having a grand time in Iran, they would have stayed where they were. Do you honestly expect people to believe that Iran, a country without an open educational system, where the Immans control social policy and education, where Sharia law prevails and where most people do not get past secondary education is this utopia you proclaim? Poverty and unemployment is the norm, not a high standard of living. It is why the Iranian people are restless.

3. Iran right now is accepting any currency for oil and are not worried about having to accept USD. Good on them.

The problem that the Iranians have is that the Indian clients are not paying their bills in a timely manner. The North and South Koreans and the Chinese have really forced down the price and Iran is barely covering its production costs. In plain language, it's supposed friends are taking advantage of Iran. The Iranian people do however resent the large flow of money from Iran to various groups including Hamas. This is money that should be invested in the Iranian nation.

4. In my opinion, they would not supply arms or rockets to Palestine, Hamas or any other close ally and they are not Arabs.

Brilliant logc. Laughable too. The statement speaks for itself and need not be countered because it is assinine.

Oh dear geriatrickid? Are you getting over a hangover? On your first point I make no comment on supply of arms to the Palestinians as I also believe that is incorrect but have no proof.

On your point 2 - weapons of mass destruction in Iraq - none were found. Thailand is not Iraq. The declaration of war was bogus reasoning and proven.

On your point 3 - the only Iranians I know are the ones who live there - where are you coming from???? Wrong...

On your second point 3 - price of oil, - the only reason prices are up is the actual overinflated cost of oil due to the real value of the USD continuing to decline - the more they print the higher the cost in USD. Other countries are paying the real value - about $60 per barrel not $85 I believe, in their own currencies at present - get your facts right. And by not having to purchase USD to pay with, US is in shit because the less the demand the more they will fall.

On your last point - Iran has not invaded anyone for millenniums. As an empire (Persia) they were the centre of the earths intelligence for nearly two thousand years, the first in 558BC and officially out in 1979. The US came in as a 'self declared' reserve currency and the world police force after they were 'forced' into the war in 1941. They will not even last 75 years.

Logic and laughable? Yes your answers were - fabulous, I still have tears - or is it the hangover?

[thaibeachlovers]

But the settler from Gaza bild new illegal settlements on Palestine land.

They're not building anything in Gaza. The topic is about the current military conflict between Israel and Hamas ruled Gaza.

He means that the settlers that were forced to leave Gaza went and built illegal settlements in the West Bank. And that IS part of what the conflict is all about.

If Israel wants to resolve the conflict, they can withdraw to the '67 border, move the wall to that line and allow Palestinians to have their own nation.

If they don't, we'll be reading about the conflict for ?infinity. The Anglo Irish conflict lasted over 600 years, and only ended when the occupiers ( Britain ) negotiated in good faith with the IRA.

What will the Palestinians offer in return? Acceptance of Israel's right to exist as Jewish state? Dropping the demand of right of return of Palestinians into Israel? Please let us all know when the Palestinians have a coherent unified government and are ready to make that kind of credible offer.

Withdraw to the '67 border, move the wall to that line, allow Palestinians to have their own nation and I think we can be confident that all but the most hard line fanatic will accept Israel's right to exist.

I thought that the demand was for exiled Palestinians to be allowed to return to the West Bank, not the state of Israel, and that should be accepted.

The Palestinians will never be allowed to have a decent government as long as Israel wants to keep occupying Palestinian land and the US supports them without question.

For goodness sake, would any of us accept living under occupation? Let's not forget why the US declared independence; are the Palestinians less deserving of their own state?

[thaibeachlovers]

Israel is responsible for this latest round of violence having broke the 2 week old cease fire on 8 Nov by killing a 12 year old child on a soccer field, again on the 10 Nov killing 2 more children, and on the 14 assassinating Ahmed Jaabari and others, following these attacks Hamas responded with rocket fire into Israel.

Are you going to deny that hundreds of missiles and mortars have been launched from Gaza since January 1, 2012? The Hamas administration was warned repeatedly to cease and desist. It did not. The result was the targeting of missile storage and launching sites along with those people responsible for the attacks.

The November 8 death that you cite was the end result of an attempt to stop hostile fire coming from Gaza.

The boy, 13, was hit by machine-gun fire from Israeli helicopters or tanks that targeted houses and farms near Khan Yunis, the Palestinian Maan news agency reported. And then there is this;

Arab Version: The Popular Resistance Committees said its gunmen had confronted an Israeli force of four tanks and a bulldozer involved in a short-range incursion beyond Israel's border fence with the Gaza Strip.

Israeli version: "Terrorists opened fire at IDF (Israeli army) soldiers while they were performing routine activity adjacent to the security fence,"

It is a fact that the arabs routinely target Israeli patrols that are within Israeli territory. In this case, gunfire had been directed at an Israeli border patrol and the Israelis responded. Perhaps, if Hamas militants didn't intentionally engage in hostile actions while hiding behind children, the youth would not have been fatally injured.

If Hamas was not deploying its missiles in civilian neighborhoods, near playgrounds, hospitals, schools etc., the IDF would not be targeting those locations.

It is really quite simple. Iran and its Hamas allies need to stop attempting to provoke a confrontation. It is no mystery to me why the attacks are underway. Iran thinks it can build support in the region and capitalize on the Muslim Brotherhood gaining power in Egypt. The end result will be another demonstratiion of arab miscalculation with the Palestinian arabs losing once again. If Gaza is subject to such a strict blockade, how are hundreds of missiles from Libya and Iran getting in to Gaza?

Are you aware of how densly built up Gaza is? It's impossible to have a rocket site that isn't near civilian buildings of some kind.

The missiles are undoubtedly being taken through the tunnels, and with the new president in Egypt, I fully expect that in the event of an Israeli ground invasion of Gaza, the supply will be going through the gates.

[khunken]

But the settler from Gaza bild new illegal settlements on Palestine land.

They're not building anything in Gaza. The topic is about the current military conflict between Israel and Hamas ruled Gaza.

He means that the settlers that were forced to leave Gaza went and built illegal settlements in the West Bank. And that IS part of what the conflict is all about.

If Israel wants to resolve the conflict, they can withdraw to the '67 border, move the wall to that line and allow Palestinians to have their own nation.

If they don't, we'll be reading about the conflict for ?infinity. The Anglo Irish conflict lasted over 600 years, and only ended when the occupiers ( Britain ) negotiated in good faith with the IRA.

What will the Palestinians offer in return? Acceptance of Israel's right to exist as Jewish state? Dropping the demand of right of return of Palestinians into Israel? Please let us all know when the Palestinians have a coherent unified government and are ready to make that kind of credible offer.

In the last 60-odd years of Israeli occupation there have been credible (e.g. Yasser Arafat) Palestinian governments but Israel never made a offer of a viable Palestinian state. That the current Palestinian leadership is divided is true but Hamas has supported Abbas as a representative of the people in international negotiations. Netanyahu has never had any interest in peace & his lies about 'surgical strikes' demonstrate that Israel is just targeting Gaza civilians just as Hamas does to Israelis.

It's a chicken & egg problem. One side assassinates & the other fires rockets in frustration or vice-versa. That it has exploded now is electioneering by Likud. The previous invasion of Gaza achieved nothing except satisfying Israeli blood-lust.

hamas has repeatedly said that it will recognise Israel when Israel recognises a Palestinian state as per the pre-invasion borders. Ever since the Israeli pull-out from Gaza it has imposed an internment-camp llike blockade & bombs Gaza at will, not always needing a justification. If I lived in Gaza I would support Hamas & have a profound detestation of the Israelis.

[thaibeachlovers]

They're not building anything in Gaza. The topic is about the current military conflict between Israel and Hamas ruled Gaza.

He means that the settlers that were forced to leave Gaza went and built illegal settlements in the West Bank. And that IS part of what the conflict is all about.

If Israel wants to resolve the conflict, they can withdraw to the '67 border, move the wall to that line and allow Palestinians to have their own nation.

If they don't, we'll be reading about the conflict for ?infinity. The Anglo Irish conflict lasted over 600 years, and only ended when the occupiers ( Britain ) negotiated in good faith with the IRA.

What will the Palestinians offer in return? Acceptance of Israel's right to exist as Jewish state? Dropping the demand of right of return of Palestinians into Israel? Please let us all know when the Palestinians have a coherent unified government and are ready to make that kind of credible offer.

In the last 60-odd years of Israeli occupation there have been credible (e.g. Yasser Arafat) Palestinian governments but Israel never made a offer of a viable Palestinian state. That the current Palestinian leadership is divided is true but Hamas has supported Abbas as a representative of the people in international negotiations. Netanyahu has never had any interest in peace & his lies about 'surgical strikes' demonstrate that Israel is just targeting Gaza civilians just as Hamas does to Israelis.

It's a chicken & egg problem. One side assassinates & the other fires rockets in frustration or vice-versa. That it has exploded now is electioneering by Likud. The previous invasion of Gaza achieved nothing except satisfying Israeli blood-lust.

hamas has repeatedly said that it will recognise Israel when Israel recognises a Palestinian state as per the pre-invasion borders. Ever since the Israeli pull-out from Gaza it has imposed an internment-camp llike blockade & bombs Gaza at will, not always needing a justification. If I lived in Gaza I would support Hamas & have a profound detestation of the Israelis.

Well put. How many of us would accept the Israeli control of Gaza without resistance if we lived there?

[fasteddie]

It's all very simple really.

You fire rockets indiscriminately into Israel and suffer the consequences.

Simple choice.

Even more simple than that!

The murdering zionist thugs stop breaking every ceasefire, killing women and children with indiscriminate air attacks, and pull back to their internationally recognised borders, then, and only then, will there be any chance of peace.

[Jingthing]

...

If I lived in Gaza I would support Hamas & have a profound detestation of the Israelis.

And if I was Chinese, I would eat more noodles.

Hamas is a fundamentalist Islamist government. It's not for everyone, including many Muslims. Moderate internal dissent against Hamas in Gaza wouldn't be a healthy choice. Don't even ask about the situation for gay Gazans.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

...

I thought that the demand was for exiled Palestinians to be allowed to return to the West Bank, not the state of Israel, and that should be accepted.

...

I would like to challenge your clearly incorrect interpretation of the well known concept of the Palestinian demand for right of return, which they have NEVER abandoned.

Israel can't accept that demand and still be Israel. If there is ever to be peace, and two states, that long standing Palestinian demand will need to be dropped. Obviously, limited rights for a limited number of returnees and limited compensation would be a possibility upon negotiation.

wiki

The Palestinian right of return (Arabic: حق العودة‎, Ḥaqq al-ʿawda; Hebrew: זכות השיבה‎, zkhut hashivah) is a political position or principle asserting that Palestinian refugees, both first-generation refugees and their descendants, have a right to return, and a right to the property they or their forebears left or which they were forced to leave in what is now Israel and the Palestinian territories (formerly part of the British Mandate of Palestine), as part of the 1948 Palestinian exodus, a result of the 1948 Palestine war and due to the 1967 Six-Day War.

Bottom line: there are TWO (or more) sides in this conflict and all the sides have legitimate interests and grievances. It would be very nice if that could be solved with peaceful negotiations but why would that happen anytime soon when it hasn't worked for decades?

Edited November 18, 2012 by Jingthing

[Morch]

I thought that the demand was for exiled Palestinians to be allowed to return to the West Bank, not the state of Israel

Nope. The Palestinians are pretty much entrenched in thee position that the Right of Return refers to original places where refugees came from. The West Bank and Gaza would not be able to deal with such an influx of people anyway (nor will Israel, for that matter). There very little realistic or pragmatic discussion on how any of it could take place.

There are some differences between factions and organizations, but this is one of those things that are hard to back down from, it seems.

[Samuimike1]

Withdraw to the '67 border, move the wall to that line is not possible, 6 million Jews need land and house in Israel and Palestine.

[thaibeachlovers]

...

I thought that the demand was for exiled Palestinians to be allowed to return to the West Bank, not the state of Israel, and that should be accepted.

...

I would like to challenge your clearly incorrect interpretation of the well known concept of the Palestinian demand for right of return, which they have NEVER abandoned.

Israel can't accept that demand and still be Israel. If there is ever to be peace, and two states, that long standing Palestinian demand will need to be dropped. Obviously, limited rights for a limited number of returnees and limited compensation would be a possibility upon negotiation.

wiki

The Palestinian right of return (Arabic: حق العودة‎, Ḥaqq al-ʿawda; Hebrew: זכות השיבה‎, zkhut hashivah) is a political position or principle asserting that Palestinian refugees, both first-generation refugees and their descendants, have a right to return, and a right to the property they or their forebears left or which they were forced to leave in what is now Israel and the Palestinian territories (formerly part of the British Mandate of Palestine), as part of the 1948 Palestinian exodus, a result of the 1948 Palestine war and due to the 1967 Six-Day War.

Bottom line: there are TWO (or more) sides in this conflict and all the sides have legitimate interests and grievances. It would be very nice if that could be solved with peaceful negotiations but why would that happen anytime soon when it hasn't worked for decades?

Well, even I can see that Israel will not allow returning Palestinians in Israel, but what happens to all those living in refugee camps then? I doubt that they can be allowed to continue living in them forever. That would be a shame and a disgrace on the UN and the world.

[Jingthing]

Withdraw to the '67 border, move the wall to that line is not possible, 6 million Jews need land and house in Israel and Palestine.

To most Palestinians, Israel IS Palestine. The hardening of positions is on BOTH sides.

[thaibeachlovers]

Withdraw to the '67 border, move the wall to that line is not possible, 6 million Jews need land and house in Israel and Palestine.

It has to be possible or there will never be peace.

Do the Israelis WANT to live under threat for eternity? The Arabs aren't going to go away quietly.

[mania]

It has to be possible or there will never be peace.

Do the Israelis WANT to live under threat for eternity? The Arabs aren't going to go away quietly.

I may be wrong & it could be just talk but,

It seems this time as you say the Arab League is stepping up.

Israel may find this time their over reaction may not be tolerated by not only

the Arabs but the world. Which could explain them targeting the journalists building.

As someone else mentioned Egypt has a new President & Turkey has not been

amused by Israel in recent times. Iran would obviously lend their voice or more?

So it could end up as more than just Arabs

If push comes to shove & the US are duped into this in support of Israel it could be a real mess.

Timing coinciding with the bid to upgrade Palestine's status to a non-member state

which will also allow Palestinians to file complaints at the International Criminal Court is all too

convenient. Considering this would halt Israels ability to annex more lands.

In any case this mess looks to get bigger before ending.

Edited November 18, 2012 by mania

[Morch]

Israel is responsible for this latest round of violence having broke the 2 week old cease fire on 8 Nov by killing a 12 year old child on a soccer field, again on the 10 Nov killing 2 more children, and on the 14 assassinating Ahmed Jaabari and others, following these attacks Hamas responded with rocket fire into Israel.

Are you going to deny that hundreds of missiles and mortars have been launched from Gaza since January 1, 2012? The Hamas administration was warned repeatedly to cease and desist. It did not. The result was the targeting of missile storage and launching sites along with those people responsible for the attacks.

The November 8 death that you cite was the end result of an attempt to stop hostile fire coming from Gaza.

The boy, 13, was hit by machine-gun fire from Israeli helicopters or tanks that targeted houses and farms near Khan Yunis, the Palestinian Maan news agency reported. And then there is this;

Arab Version: The Popular Resistance Committees said its gunmen had confronted an Israeli force of four tanks and a bulldozer involved in a short-range incursion beyond Israel's border fence with the Gaza Strip.

Israeli version: "Terrorists opened fire at IDF (Israeli army) soldiers while they were performing routine activity adjacent to the security fence,"

It is a fact that the arabs routinely target Israeli patrols that are within Israeli territory. In this case, gunfire had been directed at an Israeli border patrol and the Israelis responded. Perhaps, if Hamas militants didn't intentionally engage in hostile actions while hiding behind children, the youth would not have been fatally injured.

If Hamas was not deploying its missiles in civilian neighborhoods, near playgrounds, hospitals, schools etc., the IDF would not be targeting those locations.

It is really quite simple. Iran and its Hamas allies need to stop attempting to provoke a confrontation. It is no mystery to me why the attacks are underway. Iran thinks it can build support in the region and capitalize on the Muslim Brotherhood gaining power in Egypt. The end result will be another demonstratiion of arab miscalculation with the Palestinian arabs losing once again. If Gaza is subject to such a strict blockade, how are hundreds of missiles from Libya and Iran getting in to Gaza?

Are you aware of how densly built up Gaza is? It's impossible to have a rocket site that isn't near civilian buildings of some kind.

The missiles are undoubtedly being taken through the tunnels, and with the new president in Egypt, I fully expect that in the event of an Israeli ground invasion of Gaza, the supply will be going through the gates.

Egypt re-opened the border pass a few days ago, mostly to let through humanitarian aid (same on the Israeli side, today). As for letting arms shipments pour in, doubtful, at least not out in the open. There are three reasons for this: Risking relationship with USA and the substantial aid it carries. a risk that weapons will and up with other outfits (who do not always do Egypt's bidding), and a risk of a direct confrontation with Israel (not really in Egypt's best interests right now).

[simple1]

Currently it looks doubtful that Israel will launch a ground attack on Gaza as Israel is claiming significant degradation of Hamas weapons systems and infrastructure. Also a lot of international pressure not to attack. I guess this would change if Hamas had a "lucky" hit that kills more Israeli citizens.

[Morch]

In the last 60-odd years of Israeli occupation there have been credible (e.g. Yasser Arafat) Palestinian governments but Israel never made a offer of a viable Palestinian state. That the current Palestinian leadership is divided is true but Hamas has supported Abbas as a representative of the people in international negotiations. Netanyahu has never had any interest in peace & his lies about 'surgical strikes' demonstrate that Israel is just targeting Gaza civilians just as Hamas does to Israelis.

It's a chicken & egg problem. One side assassinates & the other fires rockets in frustration or vice-versa. That it has exploded now is electioneering by Likud. The previous invasion of Gaza achieved nothing except satisfying Israeli blood-lust.

hamas has repeatedly said that it will recognise Israel when Israel recognises a Palestinian state as per the pre-invasion borders. Ever since the Israeli pull-out from Gaza it has imposed an internment-camp llike blockade & bombs Gaza at will, not always needing a justification. If I lived in Gaza I would support Hamas & have a profound detestation of the Israelis.

Well, that's one way of looking at it - another would be 60 years back the Palestinians weren't in a negotiating mode as well.

Contrary to what you claim there were a few valid offers from both sides laid out - it always fails as the level of mistrust on both sides is high, public opinion (on both sides) not ready for many of the inevitable compromises. On to another point - the Hamas does not always support Abbas and the PA as the representatives of the Palestinian people.

Civilians are getting hurt on both sides. Alongside the usual rhetoric, however, even Hamas conceded that about half of the casualties on their side were combatants. Doesn't help the rest or their families, but not quite indiscriminate shooting at civilians.

The previous invasion did nothing much for Israel from a strategic point of view, true. On the other hand, it did effect, at least short term, the capability and effectiveness of Hamas attacks. In Addition, that invasion was called to a halt a bit earlier than planned - which might, or might not, had a more lasting outcome had it been completed (just to be clear, not my view).

Hamas, to this day, refuses to recognizes or deal directly with Israel. Some of the Hamas leaders (not all, disunity also there) said that they will consider recognizing Israel after a complete withdrawal AND reinstatement of Palestinian refugees (as per their interpretation of the Right of Return). Not exactly a pragmatic position.