I agree with you if I was missing a member of the hunting party - common sense would tell me I should verify his location before I take a shot. I guess by yelling out perhaps the bird would have gotten away?

I've been doing a little google-research on this, shotgun spread patterns, birdshot pellts and so on.

Things seems to be a little confused. Some are reporting that the lawyer was hit with up to 200 pellets, and that the story was later changed to 100 or less.

Many (many) people that are experienced hunters agree, the lawyer had to be much closer than 30 yards to be hit with that many pellets. In fact, some estimates have the distance at 15-20 feet. Not yards, FEET !

Surprisingly (or is it), many people think that alcohol must have been involved (hence the delay in reporting the story and the delay before being interviewed by the police. Apparently Dick is known to like the sauce, and has reportedly gone hunting before while intoxicated.

The evidence does seem to suggest that it is possible to hit someone with 100-200 pellets from a 28 guage shotgun, using 7/12 birdshot, at 30 yards, but you would have to have a certain choke in the shotgun, be aiming directly at the target and hit it dead center (not likely if you were in motion, swinging around to shoot a bird).

They claim that it was the lawyers fault because he walked up from behind without announcing himself. That would mean that the VP had to swing around almost 180 degrees to shoot at a bird that had flown directly behind him.

To hit a man around 6' tall in the face, chest and shoulder at 30 yards would require you to be aiming along a horizontal (level to the ground) angle. Apparently, quail are usually shot while aiming along a more vertical angle (i.e. aiming at the sky).

Supposedly, the doctors didn't remove the pellets as they were "superficial", yet at least one of them penetrated deep enough into the chest cavity to enter an artery that feeds blood to the heart muscle. Hardly a "superficial" wound.

For birdshot that small to penetrate the orange hunting vest (usually made of a nylon or polyester material), penetrate whatever Williamson was wearing under the vest, and then penetrate the chest cavity deep enough to enter an artery that feeds the heart, indicates that he was shot at a lot closer than 30 yards, according to some that ought to know.

Williamson is being kept in the Intensive Care Unit at the hospital. Not because of his condition, but for "privacy" reasons. Surely a rich fellow like this could afford his own private room ?

Sure would like to see a picture of the injuries, before they are all healed up. Wonder how long he'll be kept in the hospital, considering that the doctors have stated that people with these kind of "superficial" injuries usually only stay 2-3 days in the hospital (it's been how many days now ?).

So, was this "just an accident", or is there more to it than meets the eye ?

Interesting. Fox announced the results of a poll that shows the majority of Republicans and Independants surveyed think the Cheney affair was a simple hunting accident.

Fox won't say who commissioned the poll though (yes, it does make a difference. Pollsters wouldn't get a lot of business if they keep returning results that aren't favourable to the people paying for the poll).

One commentator was talking to Bill O'Reilly on the phone. O'Reilly noted that some of the other major news networks were questioning if Cheney was drunk when the accident happened.

What was O'Reilly's reaction ? He told viewers they should turn off those networks and never watch them again. Rather than step back and take a non-objective, "No Spin" view of the event, he instead chose to swallow the administration's story (their "Spin") without hesitation.

So much for journalistic integrity.

Here are a couple of jokes from Bungs post...classic!

"A mere five days after shooting a man in the face, Vice President Dick Cheney broke his silence about the incident by submitting to a no-holds-barred grilling at a public press conference. I'm just kidding. ... Actually, he sat down with Brit Hume on Fox News for not some much a grilling -- more of a teat suckle." --Jon Stewart

"He sat down for a one-on-one with Fox News. Very bold choice. Dick Cheney sitting down with Fox News is like Mrs. Butterworth sitting down with the Pancake Channel." --Jimmy Kimmel

"If this story gets any bigger, pretty soon they're going to have to tell the president." --David Letterman

"I'm surprised Dick Cheney loves to hunt so much. The five times the government tried to give him a gun, he got a deferment." --Jay Leno

""Apparently the reason they didn't release the information right away is they said we had to get the facts right. That's never stopped them in the past." --Craig Ferguson

Maybe its a good thing he got those deferrments. The casualty rate in Vietnam was high enough without more friendly fire.

cv

Maybe its a good thing he got those deferrments. The casualty rate in Vietnam was high enough without more friendly fire.

cv

Imagine if Dick had of gone to Vietnam. He may have taken his R&R's here in Pattaya (gasp) ! There might have been all sorts of little Dicks (and Dickettes) running around right now !

News Flash !

The owner of the ranch (Mrs Armstrong) told the press that alcohol was not served at the ranch, but Cheney admits to drinking "a" beer at lunch !!

Sean Hannity (Fox commentator) is making the absurd claim that the VP isn't known to be a drinker !!!!

Everyone KNOWS Cheney likes the sauce.

Interesting. Fox announced the results of a poll that shows the majority of Republicans and Independants surveyed think the Cheney affair was a simple hunting accident.

Fox won't say who commissioned the poll though (yes, it does make a difference. Pollsters wouldn't get a lot of business if they keep returning results that aren't favourable to the people paying for the poll).

One commentator was talking to Bill O'Reilly on the phone. O'Reilly noted that some of the other major news networks were questioning if Cheney was drunk when the accident happened.

What was O'Reilly's reaction ? He told viewers they should turn off those networks and never watch them again. Rather than step back and take a non-objective, "No Spin" view of the event, he instead chose to swallow the administration's story (their "Spin") without hesitation.

So much for journalistic integrity.

O'Reilly is a fraud. He is not a journalist. He is an entertainer.

As for the VP being a drunk, he is not alone in the WH. Bush is back on the bottle for quite a while now. Must be a real party there. They started drinking after Iraq "Victory" when they realized that they will never win the war.

Som na na

This is the funniest part of the Fox news interview..

With Whittington on the ground bleeding, Cheney said he approached his friend and found him conscious. "I said, 'Harry, I had no idea you were there,'" Cheney said. He said Whittington did not respond.

No chit dick.

As a matter of trivia I remember reading that the cartridge for the gun in question has 260 pellets.

I like the thread title- it reminds me of "Man Bites Dog..." Man Bites Dog... Cheney Shoots Man...

What was O'Reilly's reaction ? He told viewers they should turn off those networks and never watch them again. Rather than step back and take a non-objective, "No Spin" view of the event, he instead chose to swallow the administration's story (their "Spin") without hesitation.

Time to get your foot out of your mouth.

What part of anything that the administration has said about this incident has been "spin?"

I don't recall any coverup, any lies, any deception, or anything else other than the facts as they occurred.

The only "spinning" being done is the left and the anti-Bush/Cheney media trying to spin this story into something more than it is, a relatively minor hunting accident.

a relatively minor hunting accident.

Where someone got shot in the head.

cv

a relatively minor hunting accident.

Where someone got shot in the head.

cv

Imagine if he died.....just a minor death...

a relatively minor hunting accident.

Where someone got shot in the head.

cv

Anytime a hospital is involved I doubt one can call it minor... However the story has been blown out of proportion - the only person this affects is Cheney and poor lad who was shot and his family.

Interesting. Fox announced the results of a poll that shows the majority of Republicans and Independants surveyed think the Cheney affair was a simple hunting accident.

Well, 'Faux' would, wouldn't they?

Interesting. Fox announced the results of a poll that shows the majority of Republicans and Independants surveyed think the Cheney affair was a simple hunting accident.

Well, 'Faux' would, wouldn't they?

Pretty much anyone with any common sense would.

I don't recall any coverup, any lies, any deception, or anything else other than the facts as they occurred.

The only "spinning" being done is the left and the anti-Bush/Cheney media trying to spin this story into something more than it is, a relatively minor hunting accident.

Well, as you should know from my previous posts, I am definitely not on "the left". Being a Canuck, I would be considered a Conservative, which would place me on "the right". As you may have noticed in other threads, I am usually taking up the same side as you and Boon Mee.

As a Canuck, I really don't care about Bush/Cheney/Kerry/Gore/Clinton/Kennedy ect, ect.

What does concern me is when a significant event occurs, and there appears to be an obvious cover-up. Lets change "cover-up" for "facts that don't match the official explanation"

Or, change "cover-up" for "hastily constructed cover story that risks being shredded as more facts are revealed"

Ranch owner claims that alcohol isn't served at the ranch (must be the only ranch in Texas that doesn't have booze on hand for it's super rich and powerful guests)

Cheney admitted to "having a beer at lunch", he didn't say if it had been smuggled in for him by the Secret Service or someone else (see note above about no booze on the ranch)(Cheney is a known drinker, everyone has picked up on that. Everyone it seems except for Sean Hannity (Fox commentator) who claimed today that Cheney isn't known to be a drinker. There was even a clip on TV today about a shop selling "Dick Cheney hunting costumes, complete with drinking flask !

The local police were notified about an hour and 20 minutes after the shooting. Apparently (as the story unfolds) the police showed up at the ranch and were turned away by the Secret Service ! The sheriff agreed to return the next morning for an interview (over 14 hours later, far too late to determine if Cheney's condition might have been a factor)

The president is informed about the same time by presidential aide Karl Rove, who got the information not from Cheney himself, but from the ranch owner. Was Cheney so drunk he couldn't risk talking to the president personally ?

Apparently, Cheney did have his (personal) press people with him, but he admits it was his decision to not inform anybody (publically) until the next day. It was also his decision to let the ranch owner break the story to a friendly, local paper, instead of the national media (who he felt might not accept his story at face value ! That is also why he chose to appear on Fox in a personal interview, instead of appearing before reporters from the national media, whom the administration considers to be the enemy).

The information I've been able to glean from searching the net seems to indicate that Cheney had to be aiming directly at the lawyer when he shot him. The lawyer appears to have been hit by far to many pellets for it to have been anything but a dead-on shot.

To be hit with that many pellets in that small of area means the guy had to hit with the brunt of the burst. Unless he was using a full-choke in the shotgun (unlikely for a quail hunter), that would also mean that Cheney had to be a lot closer than 30 yards when he fired.

Even Cheney said that his friend came up from behind him. That means Cheney had to turn 180 degrees to shoot a target behind him (very unsafe at any time, especially in a multi-hunter scenario)

The wounds were described as "superficial" by the doctors. Yet at least one of the pellets penetrated the lawyers clothing and chest cavity and ended up next to his heart. Superficial ? Not too mention that again, it seems to indicate Cheney was a lot closer than 30 yards for 7 1/2 guage birdshot to penetrate that deeply.

The doctors said that people with these kinds of injuries usually stay 2-3 days in the hospital. He's been there for a week now, and today they said he could be released "in a few days". That's quite a awhile for a guy with "superficial" injuries.

The lawyer is being kept in the Intensive Care Unit, not a private room. The hospital staff say it's for his privacy. What is more private, an ICU full of doctors and nurses or a private room ?

In the meantime, what is the "offical" explanation ? Basically, it was the lawyers fault for coming up behind Cheney without properly announcing himself. Cheney turned to fire at a bird and hit his friend. Simple accident.

I wouldn't care if this had been Gore, or Clinton, Blair or the Pope. There is too much about this story that just doesn't add up.

So Spee, what would your reaction be if you found out that Cheney actually was drunk, and was a lot closer than 30 yards when he shot his friend ? Would you still consider the "official" explanation to be "the facts as they occurred" ?

I still say, if the situation had of been reversed and Cheney was the one shot, we would have known about it within a couple of hours. We would also know if the lawyer had been drinking, (the police would have been there immediately and tested the lawyer, instead of being turned away). If it turned out he had been drinking, he would be hit with some pretty serious charges.

The media would have been notified by Cheney's press staff, not by the ranch owner. The President would have been informed immediately (not an hour and a half later, and again, not by the ranch owner).

I highly doubt that the "official" explanation would have been "simple hunting accident".

I wouldn't care if this had been Gore, or Clinton, Blair or the Pope.

I still say, if the situation had of been reversed and Cheney was the one shot, we would have known about it within a couple of hours. We would also know if the lawyer had been drinking, (the police would have been there immediately and tested the lawyer, instead of being turned away). If it turned out he had been drinking, he would be hit with some pretty serious charges.

I highly doubt that the "official" explanation would have been "simple hunting accident".

Although I suport the current administration, I voted for Clinton and I still have a lot of respect for the guy and if it had been him in this situation, I would have said, "simple hunting accident", and if Cheney had been shot by the lawyer, instead of the other way around, I think that the conclusion would be the same.

An accident.

a relatively minor hunting accident.

Where someone got shot in the head.

cv

Imagine if he died.....just a minor death...

Relatively minor .... as in ....

- "largely superficial wounds" as stated by the attending physician

Relatively minor ... as compared to ....

- the 100 or so deaths that annually occur during hunting seasons in the US

Oh ... .and one more thing for all the Bush/Cheney haters who want Cheney to be drawn and quartered for breaking the law. He has been issued a citation for hunting without the proper license, which is a class C misdemeanor with a fine of between $25-$500. Anyone want to bet that it won't be paid?

Want the same odds that Fat Teddy will come forward and 'fess up for killing that girl? Or that the Clintons will come forward and 'fess up for any one of their illegal deeds? I doubt it.

So Spee, what would your reaction be if you found out that Cheney actually was drunk, and was a lot closer than 30 yards when he shot his friend ? Would you still consider the "official" explanation to be "the facts as they occurred" ?

This is right out of the Bush-hating media guide to spin-reporting. Don't discuss what actually happened. Discuss the what-ifs and all the possible spins associated with the what-ifs. What a <deleted>' joke!

I still say, if the situation had of been reversed and Cheney was the one shot, we would have known about it within a couple of hours.

Geee, ya think??????????????????????????????

I would certainly hope so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're comparing a local politician with the second most powerful person in the world.

Jeez!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Someone without a licence shooting someone in the head on a hunt.

Yeah, just some minor thing...

Talk about "spin"...

He'd be jailed for years in most civilised countries.

Someone without a licence shooting someone in the head on a hunt.

Yeah, just some minor thing...

Talk about "spin"...

He'd be jailed for years in most civilised countries.

Someone without a licence shooting someone in the head on a hunt.

Yeah, just some minor thing...

Talk about "spin"...

He'd be jailed for years in most civilised countries.

Seconded.

This guy zzap is competing with B'fly for head troll and US-hater.

Seconded.

This guy zzap is competing with B'fly for head troll and US-hater.

Well, the guy is out of the hospital suddenly, and doesn't blame Cheney for the incident.

Case solved.

He looks pretty good for a guy that took half a load of birdshot in the neck/face/shoulder.

I guess that's it for now. As long as Cheney is still in office (or as long as he is alive), no one will come forward with a conflicting story (if there truly is a conflicting story) that might damage the administration.

Summary: As long as you are the President or Vice-President, you are above the law regardless of which party you belong to (just make sure you do a good job hiding the bodies). Not to worry, even if you do get impeached, the next President will pardon you any ways.

It is possible to disagree with, or have a differing opinion from someone without hating them. I disagree with many policies of the current US administration, but I don't hate any of them. I've been involved in politics long enough to know better than to take it so personally. I'll leave they hyperbole and hatred to the impotent wannabes that infest talk radio for the amusement of the rest of us.

I think I actually like Bush, and would enjoy spending a day out at the ranch riding around and swapping stories. Sometime during that I'd probably tell him that invading Iraq (at least before Afghanistan was properly dealt with) was a very bad idea.

cv

This guy zzap is competing with B'fly for head troll and US-hater.

Someone without a licence shooting someone in the head on a hunt.

Yeah, just some minor thing...

Talk about "spin"...

He'd be jailed for years in most civilised countries.

Seconded.

This guy zzap is competing with B'fly for head troll and US-hater.

Being jailed for years is probably going over the top, but in my country you would most likley be charged with reckless discharge of a firearm.

You don't get it do you! If it was the 2IC from my country seemingly getting an easy way out,I would be "up them" too. Do you understand this concept? I would be right up Tony Blair/John Howard/Helen Clarke (Time for some googling??) or any other leader if this happened....I mean he did shoot somebody?..or did I miss something.

By all the pissing around Cheney did, it looked like something was up.Infact, you can almost smell it. He must think that the people from his country are thick.Why he couldn't have stood up like a man straight after the event and told "the world". What he did after was spin.Here you have a seasoned politition pissing aroud like an old chook.

Now, before you blindly defend him, ask yourself this..why did Brother Dick wait so long to tell the media through a member of the public. Did he have a few brews? Is he legally blind? Has anybody told hime about gun safety?Why did the SS turn back the police? How can you shoot somebody that is only 20 odd meters away.

Someone without a licence shooting someone in the head on a hunt.

Yeah, just some minor thing...

Talk about "spin"...

He'd be jailed for years in most civilised countries.

Seconded.

This guy zzap is competing with B'fly for head troll and US-hater.

I am simply exposing the one-sidedness and huge flaws in your arguments.

Topic titles such as "Eff Kofi" aren't exactly inviting elaborate, reasoned responses, are they? Perhaps the term "trolling" would fit such comments?

DICK CHENEY has inspired a new video game

And on a related subject; GUN REGISTRATION: Such a bad idea that even the Canadians are scrapping it. "One former Mountie called the registry 'totally useless' because criminals don't register their guns." Too bad they didn't figure that out a few billion dollars ago...

I disagree.

Registered guns are used for crimes, too.

And of course, the police could arrest anyone found with an unregistered gun since it would be illegal to own such.

For what was spent on that stupid gun registry we could have had 5000 more police officers. A much better investment IMO.

We already had in place a sensible system where the user had to register and be checked out before they could obtain or possess guns. Makes more sense making sure that violent people are prevented from legally owning any firearm, than having violent people individually register each of their weapons. A seperate, and more restrictive permit is required for handguns.

cv

I didn't know how it's been handled in Canada, in some European countries both the gun and the user need to be registered.

... makes sense to me, maximum possible measures against any going astray.