The Realities Of War

[the gentleman]

Marine Lance Corporal William S. Roy, testified that he and two other Marines once beat a sheik that had resisted being taken into US custody. The man had a bag over his head and his hands were tied behind his back. A trial is going on at Camp Pendleton, a Marine base in California, to see if a Court-martial should be set up for the killing of an Iraqi prisoner in Marine custody.

Roy, a Marine Guard at an American military prison in Iraq testified that it was common practice in Iraq to kick and punch prisoners who didn't cooperate—and even some who did.

In an article in the San Diego Union Tribune, written by Rick Rogers it is said that an Iraqi named Nagem Sadoon Hatab died from injuries after Lance Corporal Christian Hernandez dragged him by the neck from one holding area to another on the orders of Major Clarke Paulus. Corporal Roy has been given immunity for his testimony.

The trial of these Marines goes on and a recommendation will be made to Major General James N. Mattis, the commander of the 1st Marine Division, who will decide how the cases will be handled,

On the face of it, it sounds just horrible that Marines would be kicking and punching men with bags over their head and hands tied behind their backs. This sounds more like what would happen in one of Saddam Hussein Prisons.

Well America, welcome to the real world of Warfare. American Soldiers and Marines can and do get every bit as vicious as any Iraqi that ever lived. Maybe it hasn't reached the point of total insanity in Iraq yet, but it will.

Sad to say, I saw us torture and kill women and children and a memory like that sticks with you. There are many reasons that former Marines do not want to see another war, mine is because it destroys so many of our troops lives. It isn't just the dying or the losing of limbs; it is the horror that is stuck in your mind...every day, for the rest of your life.

Here is a real easy research project for you. Go to GOOGLE and type in "Winter Soldier Investigation." The first page that comes up is about this same 1st Marine Division and the first man to testify, talks about the mistreatment of prisoners. These testimonies were taken in Detroit, in 1971, by the Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

The second man, a Marine Captain tells about throwing suspected Viet Cong prisoners our of aircraft after they had been bound and gagged. The third Marine talks about killing wounded prisoners, raping women, cutting off heads and ears, and leveling villages for no reason. One Marine talks about the crucifixion of suspects. The testimony goes on and on. The 1st Marines are not the only unit to testify and the horrors of war touched every unit. in every branch of the service to some degree

Now I am not saying all of these things are going on in Iraq, but I will tell you that none of them would surprise me. Also, I have no doubt that many of them have happened. The American public has no idea of what war is and we can be thankful for that, but on the down side, our people have no idea of what our troops do when we do attack another country or the hate that our troops garner for our country by their actions.

When President Bush talks about the horror of Saddam's prisons, he doesn't realize that America has had prisons every bit as horrible as Saddam's, many times and in many countries.

I don't care what anyone says, the American fighting man will turn into a vicious animal when he has to. If you are in a war zone, you can turn into an animal, even if you don't want to. That is why I want to get our troops home now. The longer they are in Iraq, the closer to ###### they will get. George Bush and those that wave the flag and cheer on the troops here at home, have no idea of what they are asking of our troops, because they were never in a war zone.

The reality of war is that anything goes and officers as well as enlisted men will fall into the insanity of the moment. American women are now reporting that they are getting raped by our fine young soldiers in Iraq, Marine Guards at our Iraqi prisons are reporting that it is common practice to beat prisoners that are bound, with bags over their heads, and innocent civilians are getting killed in cross fires. No one knows how many Iraqi women are getting raped or how many Iraqis are getting shot by our troops for no reason, but there is no doubt that it is happening.

These are the first reports of crimes in Iraq by our troops. Let me tell you it is very hard to come out in the open and talk about crimes while in the service. First off, your career is over and you just might go to prison. Those "Winter Soldiers" that testified about crimes in Vietnam had seen too much and had to tell some one or blow their brains out and some of them did that later on. It is horrible that we are still sending people off to war.

[Guest chingy]

In the United State we have law and order, these Marines will go on trial they will get prosecuted, sent to jail and serve their time if found guilty.

Saddam is a leader of his people, he kill for his own surposes, and order his men to kill as please, there are no law and order in Iraq, the only order they have is what Saddam tell them what to do.

War is awful it turn men to be animal, anger, and revenge, there will be no peace with war,

war is every where, even in your own back yard, police chasing robbery isn't that consider act of war.

good verses evil, you have to balance it out.

[Membrane]

Yeah chingy, exactly right. They will be brought to justice. And that's the big difference between the U.S. and other countries, especially Saddam's regime. The U.S. OPENLY admits to problems (that's why this stuff can be found on the web) and brings their own renegades to justice (but people HERE don't like to talk about that part).

I wonder what one could Google if they started looking around for "prison guard rapes in Australia" or something like that. Wonder what would come up?

[Georgie-Porgie]

This is a little off the subject, "gentleman", but who wrote this? You didn't. When you copy something written by someone else, you need to indicate that somehow.

Other than that, it certainly proves that war is he11, for everyone, but it doesn't say anything about the American Military that couldn't be said about any other Army.

As far as stopping war goes. I agree. Almost everyone agrees, but when it really comes down to it, no one seems to know any other way to settle disputes.

Look at you "gentleman", no one threatened you with physical violence on this forum, but despite all your holier-than-thou, anti-American, anti-war speeches on here, despite the fact that you claim to have seen war, and to despise it, the first thing you started doing, is threatening other members. That is the same thing as declaring war.

If one can't control these impulses on here - no one even knows who you are - then how are real countries and societies supposed to get out of the war habit ?

[the gentleman]

Firstly Georgie, re read the posts - he said, he would fly to my destination and sought me out, then he said I would run and hide, like bin laden - thats where it started - it can be proven - read it and re post it, if you want!

Back to the topic - war turns people into animals as this post testifys - thats why we all dont want war - women and children, being killed and raped - that is what you dont see on television.

Also you say your military will be punished - I actually dont think that will be the case in most cases - in war, "turn the other cheek" is usually the norm and the highest ranking officer on the front line is not going to give up his mates.

I posted this as I though it to be enlightning as to effects to soldiers and victims - it is a lot of pressure for a young guy to handle and makes people very racist/hatefull in all of their actions. The "innocent" bystanders get caught up in the rage and prejudice.

[Membrane]

You know "gentleman", it does seem you are going out of your way to constantly post ONLY stuff that makes Americans look bad. I realize you and G-P have a feud going on, but come on--don't take it out on all Americans. Do you want me to start looking stuff up on Australia and posting it here (that's where you're from right)?

I just took a quick look at the titles of every single post you've made here--and they are 100% anti-U.S. So what's going on here?? You're obviously on the offensive here, trying to keep us Americans on the defensive with a constant barage of anti-U.S. threads. I'm sure your country has a few skeletons in the closet. You want to see how much I can dig up and start posting here?

[Membrane]

Back to the topic - war turns people into animals as this post testifys - thats why we all dont want war - women and children, being killed and raped - that is what you dont see on television.

And you are a professional soldier right? How many times have you raped and killed women and children? Why not post some of your personal experiences, as a soldier. But no, you have to find an article that's derogatory about the U.S.

Also you say your military will be punished - I actually dont think that will be the case in most cases - in war, "turn the other cheek" is usually the norm and the highest ranking officer on the front line is not going to give up his mates.

Well, you're not an American, so you don't know what you're talking about.

I posted this as I though it to be enlightning as to effects to soldiers and victims - it is a lot of pressure for a young guy to handle and makes people very racist/hatefull in all of their actions. The "innocent" bystanders get caught up in the rage and prejudice.

Oh yeah RIGHT! Please--give me a break.

Taking a look at your most recent threads you started...

"Halliburton Gets Iraq Oil Contract (is this a surprise?)"

"Bush Support Slumps (A Liar and cant manage finances)"

"Did The USA Invade Iraq For Oil? lets show who the minority is!"

Sure seems like a common thread to me...

And by the way Gentleman, if you are so opposed to war, why did you choose that as a profession??? (and still brag about it)??

[Georgie-Porgie]

I really would like to see him answer those questions!

[Guest chingy]

thats why we all dont want war - women and children, being killed and  raped

north korea, people are starving no food to eat, while the military feed well and the high rank leader go to strip bar. do we need to get rid of this leader or not? i would say yes, when you live in a free world that have everything, im feed well, live well, and have freedom to do what ever i like. i also want other to have what i have as well, every humman being deserve a healthy life. if we don't go to war to help these people who will, you say why not talk thing out? you can't talk to a person that doesn't want to listen, the only way is force. war is un-avoidable, most people think United State is ignorance, and bad. but have you ever thought how many good thing the United State did. Go up to a cop(police) and tell him that he is a bully and ignorance, but one of these day he might save your life.

I have no idea which country you serve in, The Unites State we don't do those kind of thing (women and children, being killed and rape) if they do get caught for that, the punishment is very harsh, you will get punish to the fullest of the law.

Once again its all about law and order.

oh! and one thing, the human civilization will always have war until the end of civilization, for a million year into the past ands it will continue million year into the future, we cannot help ourself and there is no other life form higher than us to teach us what to do.

[Membrane]

the human civilization will always have war until the end of civilization, for a million year into the past ands it will continue million year into the future, we cannot help ourself and there is no other life form higher than us to teach us what to do.

Right again Chingy. Stephen Hawking, the famous physicist, scientist and theoretician, once said that the only way he could see mankind ridding itself of it's aggressive tendencies would be through genetically altering our species, weeding out the fight or flight response and other aggressive traits. Unfortunately, our aggression is part of us--witness it here on this forum, where so many bash the U.S. for being militaristic--but use aggression and intimidation in expressing their dissatisfaction!

By the way Chingy, I like your crazy little avatar!

[Guest IT Manager]

Yes I agree.

Good avatar..

[the gentleman]

thats why we all dont want war - women and children, being killed and  raped

north korea, people are starving no food to eat, while the military feed well and the high rank leader go to strip bar. do we need to get rid of this leader or not? i would say yes, when you live in a free world that have everything, im feed well, live well, and have freedom to do what ever i like. i also want other to have what i have as well, every humman being deserve a healthy life. if we don't go to war to help these people who will, you say why not talk thing out? you can't talk to a person that doesn't want to listen, the only way is force. war is un-avoidable, most people think United State is ignorance, and bad. but have you ever thought how many good thing the United State did. Go up to a cop(police) and tell him that he is a bully and ignorance, but one of these day he might save your life.

I have no idea which country you serve in, The Unites State we don't do those kind of thing (women and children, being killed and rape) if they do get caught for that, the punishment is very harsh, you will get punish to the fullest of the law.

Once again its all about law and order.

oh! and one thing, the human civilization will always have war until the end of civilization, for a million year into the past ands it will continue million year into the future, we cannot help ourself and there is no other life form higher than us to teach us what to do.

ok Chingy I agree in some respects and thanks for the post without attacks!

I think a lot of people get sick and tired of the way the USA puts across, that they go into war to help the people - war is about gaining something - thats it!

All of the wars you guys were in, in the past have been to gain something, but your governments try tell us, that "we did it to help the people of the country", that is not factual.

You said in the United States, we dont rape and kill people, but the opposite is said in the post that is posted - war is war and morals and ideals get ousted in conflict - mistakes are made, it brings the worst out in a person and a lot of innocent suffer for the "greater cause".

If you really are going to countries to "free the people', why noy go to a few closer to home - you didnt aid Timor, you have done next to nothing in Africa and South America - those countries needed help to. They have limited resources, which equals no major gains. You would be foolish to think war is about helping the masses - look at history as you have rightly written, there always were wars and there always will be - but it is also only to gain. That is why I post things about the USA regarding war - war is for gain, whether it be resouces, land or the like.

I think saddam is and was a tyrant, but that is not why you went in there!

[Bluecat]

The atom bomb has changed everything except our thinking-thus we are drifting towards catastrophe. Albert Einstein

Vanity made the revolution - liberty was only the pretext. Napoleon

[the gentleman]

Membrane, yes you are right that I post about American behaviors in war and what you guys are actually doing, but they are also facts and I quote people with knowledge of the actual events - the majority being Americans in the loop.

Please post some things about my country (yes it is Australia), we are unfortunately Allies in the USA's race to rule the world - we are also to blame

At the end of the day Membrane, we are only Allies, because we have something to gain and our history with Americans goes way back. The point with a small sized population as ours is we dont have military might and we have to be very diplomatic in our approach to our Allies - when Bush says "your either with us or against us" - my government says we are with you, but the majority of our people are not. I am also not in the Forces now as I was not happy with my situation at the time - now I am out and have been for a few years, I still have mates serving in many countries and still am in contact with them - unfortunately I have also lost a lot as well, even this time in Iraq as the unit I was in are usually first on the ground in any war zone and then we "aid" our "friends" who are in our alliance.

I think if you ask any guy who has been to war, they will tell you that they have regrets -I am one of them!

[davidm]

War is a terrible thing, perhaps the worst misery man can inflict. There are times when it is thought to be the only solution to a crisis. 1939 is a classic example of that scenario.

The US and British governments decided Iraq presented a threat which could only be removed by war. At this moment in time, the "legality" of that war is not the most pressing concern. The Americans must finish what they started or else Iraq will be engulfed in a civil war which will be won by radical shi ite muslims. The Kurds would probably break away and form an independent state. The Turks would then invade and possibly annexe the territory, setting off another guerilla war. The whole region would be destabilised. That would be the price of a hasty withdrawal by the US and Britain.

I expect a retort along the lines of sending in the UN. Wrong. The UN does a passable job of keeping the peace where all parties have agreed a ceasefire. It is hopeless in the face of aggression. Do you really think Bangladeshi and Malaysian soldiers could do a better job than those in place right now?

[Guest chingy]

You said in the United States, we dont rape and kill people, but the opposite is said in the post that is posted - war is war and morals and ideals get ousted in conflict - mistakes are made, it brings the worst out in a person and a lot of innocent suffer for the "greater cause".

you are wrong about soldier killing woman children and rape, the United State military serve the people of United State, we will never allow that to happen , if a soldier get out of hand, he will get punish i assure you, one bad soldier doesn't mean the rest are the same

If you really are going to countries to "free the people', why noy go to a few closer to home - you didnt aid Timor, you have done next to nothing in Africa and South America - those countries needed help to. They have limited resources, which equals no major gains. You would be foolish to think war is about helping the masses - look at history as you have rightly written, there always were wars and there always will be - but it is also only to gain. That is why I post things about the USA regarding war - war is for gain, whether it be resouces, land or the like.
I think saddam is and was a tyrant, but that is not why you went in there!

i agree with you about war is gain, but do you understand what is being gain, in this time and age you don't invade for land anymore, it all about Democracy and communism:dictador, the United State wanted to show people of the world that freedoom is the way of life, the more people that want Democracy the better it is don't you agree? please give me one war that is to gain? as you put it land and resources. many people say that United State want to steal oil, i don't see how oil can be steal, in which way if any body know please fill me in.

thank-you for the compliment, ###### and Membrane

[the gentleman]

You said in the United States, we dont rape and kill people, but the opposite is said in the post that is posted - war is war and morals and ideals get ousted in conflict - mistakes are made, it brings the worst out in a person and a lot of innocent suffer for the "greater cause".

you are wrong about soldier killing woman children and rape, the United State military serve the people of United State, we will never allow that to happen , if a soldier get out of hand, he will get punish i assure you, one bad soldier doesn't mean the rest are the same

If you really are going to countries to "free the people', why noy go to a few closer to home - you didnt aid Timor, you have done next to nothing in Africa and South America - those countries needed help to. They have limited resources, which equals no major gains. You would be foolish to think war is about helping the masses - look at history as you have rightly written, there always were wars and there always will be - but it is also only to gain. That is why I post things about the USA regarding war - war is for gain, whether it be resouces, land or the like.
I think saddam is and was a tyrant, but that is not why you went in there!

i agree with you about war is gain, but do you understand what is being gain, in this time and age you don't invade for land anymore, it all about Democracy and communism:dictador, the United State wanted to show people of the world that freedoom is the way of life, the more people that want Democracy the better it is don't you agree? please give me one war that is to gain? as you put it land and resources. many people say that United State want to steal oil, i don't see how oil can be steal, in which way if any body know please fill me in.

thank-you for the compliment, ###### and Membrane

Well sorry to inform you Chingy that US soldiers have raped and killed children - fact. Even when on R&R in Phuket last year a Navy serviceman raped a fellow sailor in Patong and was sentenced to 25 years I think. Also the eyar before 5 or 6 soldiers gang raped a Bar girl in Patong and she had heart failure and died - so I know of two case whilst on R&R... Those two cases can also be varified in Phuket and National press.

Stealing oil and the rest of what you wrote, I have said many times before, I dont want to bore Georgie boy - what was the first city in Iraq to be secured?

[Guest chingy]

oh that kind of rape those are not consider combat rape, it call off duty rape, or maybe to much to drink rape

you are right lets not bore Georgie, im stoping here

[the gentleman]

oh that kind of rape those are not consider combat rape, it call off duty rape, or maybe to much to drink rape

you are right lets not bore Georgie, im stoping here

[Georgie-Porgie]

I don't consider myself to be a prude, but I see nothing funny about rape, under any circumstances.

[Guest chingy]

well Georgie-Porgie, let me explain ok, the post suppose to be something serious and than it suddenly went off topic, and now it become a joke, get it

[Georgie-Porgie]

I kind of get your point, but I really find the concept of raping women to be totally abhorrent, although I must admit, the thought of raping dogs or other (Navy) guys, did kind of raise a snicker.

[Guest chingy]

what you been somking Georgie-Porgie , are you on somekind of medication

[Georgie-Porgie]

Yeah, ulcer medication, but just to explain, the dog raping thing is on another thread, and "the gentleman" mentions a Navy guy raping his shipmate. They didn't come from my fevered imagination!