Building A New Desktop System

[Firefoxx]

I've never actually used RAID 0, and I base my comments from tests run by hardware sites. The general idea I got was that RAID 0 did indeed give a speed increase, but the increase was not consistent (across all applications), with some getting significant boosts and others insignificant, and sometimes there was even speed *decrease*. Of course, there might be a optimal RAID 0 configuration out there, but I really can't recommend making your system more vulnerable than it already is.

Of course, opinions differ.

[JackA]

I believe that the information here is worth looking at...

http://faq.storagereview.com/SingleDriveVsRaid0

I've been working with striped sets, mirrored sets and combined - but the solution for ME was to use the WD Raptor (74Gb) as my main drive for OS+Applications and then a mirrored pair 2x320Gb for data. And reserved a 1Gb partition on the raptor for the pagefile exclusively.

This gave ME a better overall workstation performance than any of the tested RAID setups that I've been through. All the RAID controllers that are available onboard can be considered SOFT - just try to run a RAID 5 and watch your CPU utilization peak and your HD performance drop drastically.

Once you try the Raptor - there's no going back.

[MikeWill]

WD Raptor is probably the best HDD on the market today, but it comes at a price of around THB 8,000 for 74Gb.

I would be satisfied with one HDD (for the moment) and it would be:

Seagate 250GB Barracuda 7200.9, 8MB Cache, S-ATA II NCQ

Specifications:

Capacity: 250GB

Average Seek Time: 11ms

Buffer: 8MB

Rotational Speed: 7200 RPM

Interface: Serial ATA II 3.0Gb/s

Features: SATA 3Gb/s with NCQ, 3-D Defense System, 63 Gs operating shock, 350 Gs non-operating shock, RoHS Compliant, 2.5 bels idle, 2.8 bels seek acoustics

Warranty: 5 Years

OEM - THB 4,760

NO RAID.

[MikeWill]

I would get the Coolermaster Stacker casing, which can be had for around 6000, and while it's a tad bigger than the normal midi tower, but it provides ample expansion possibilities, and keeps your components cool.

Read here:

http://www.anandtech.com/casecooling/showdoc.aspx?i=2702&p=1

This one can be had @ Com7.

...

Happy hunting....

I am not sure what's the "Com7", but have found CoolerMaster CM-Stacker at: http://www.jedicool.com/list.php?cate=1&productid=197

The price tag: THB 5,900.

hunting continues...

[JackA]

Seagate have middle of the road performance, and I would look deeper into the Hitachi (IBM) 250Gb offering, which is easily the fastest hard drive in its class. Even though seagate backs their drives with 5 years warranty.

Com7 is found here: www.comseven.com

[autonomous_unit]

Not sure why the topic of RAID performance came up, or if the people here are interested in Linux or Windows PCs, but I just wanted to add some practical experience with Linux. I have a little remote server with an Athlon 64 2800+ processor, a mishmash of three Seagate drives (two PATA and one SATA), and software RAID.

I cannot tell you the native performance right now, but the software RAID volumes mounted through to a Xen virtual machine are still pretty good:

RAID5 (on three disks): 78 MiB/s (80 MB/s)

RAID0 (on three disks): 135 MiB/s (142 MB/s)

where MiB are 1024 * 1024 bytes and MB are 1,000,000 bytes. I vaguely recall that the Xen stuff is adding about a 10% slowdown, but I didn't keep notes from when I did native vs. Xen comparisons.

Last year I used the system for some audio recording and editing and was very satisfied with the performance balance of this RAID setup and the CPU for doing some faster than realtime filtering and editing while also recording in the background. It is complete overkill for its current use, which is acting as an email server, web proxy, and remote backup host (where its speeds are limited by the WAN connection).

If you know what you are doing, multiple disks can be very useful even in small computers, and you don't necessarily need to use any "motherboard" RAID features. I have that stuff turned off in BIOS and am just using the drive controllers as dumb controllers for three individual drives.

[Tywais]

Seagate have middle of the road performance, and I would look deeper into the Hitachi (IBM) 250Gb offering, which is easily the fastest hard drive in its class. Even though seagate backs their drives with 5 years warranty.

Com7 is found here: www.comseven.com

Some benchmarks on various drives/manufacturers.

http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/09/27/round/page36.html

[MikeWill]

Thanks guys.

Yes, I've seen those benchmarks some time ago. Unfortunately, Seagate series 7200.9 HDDs are not included there.

The disadvantage of the Hitachi (IBM) 250Gb is that it's PATA. Hitachi DeskStar T7K250 the SATA model is not very popular in Thailand (don't know why). The same as Western Digital 3200JD Caviar. That's why I looked at attractively priced Seagate with 5 years warranty and a low noise level.

I just hope that HDD will not be a bottleneck of the system. Any of the above mentioned harddrives will do. The cheaper is the better. So buying advices are welcome.

P.S.

I'm going to check the http://www.comseven.com/

[Firefoxx]

Hitachi (ie IBM) harddrives have had a very bad reputation... their "deskstar" harddisks were often referred to the "deathstar" harddisks, since they would suffer from the "click of death" within a year or so. This didn't help their sales very much.

I personally don't pick harddrives based on benchmarks anymore... for a particular form factor and RPM, they're basically close enough as to not be a big factor. I usually think more about the warranty and support, such as duration, ease, etc.

I went to Pantip today and looked at Jedicool's offerings... I actually saw similar things at IT Mall, so you don't really need to go to Pantip, and suffer all the grief. Anyways, they had a nice selection, but again I was amazed by the amount of cases which had covers on their front panels... covers which would always get in the way when accessing optical drives. Only a few didn't have the covers, which was a pity. There was a coolermaster case with no front cover, and black perforated drive plates. The sides were aluminum, but the body was steel... and it was very heavy. It was fairly cheap, 5400 baht. They had another coolermaster made entirely of aluminum, but had small front covers, which annoyed me. It was much lighter, but the price was also steeper, 7700 baht. Both had generous expansion ability, and the first even had room for two PSUs.

[Ajarn_Jonesy]

Cooling being an issue. one thing you might want to look at is liquid cooled. Personally I use a Vantec Sting Ray ... It is a little more costly but works with the hiend AMDs...

Other than cooling the system will be noticabley quieter.

For Drives I run 4 Sg Barracuda's 7200rpm 300GB Sata in Raid 5. Cost for the drives really isn't that bad..

[astral]

harddisk: WD and Maxtor (not sure maybe also seagate).

I would never buy another WD disk.

I had one fail, it was replaced, then that failed as well.

Both under warranty, but I do not feel safe to keep any real data on that disk.

I wrote to WD, but they ignored my letter.

[MikeWill]

Thinking over the whole system, I am asking for your opinion on the following configuration:

1. AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ Dual-Core CPU - THB 14,520 < http://www.thanni.com/index.php?main_page=...96401c0ddbcfafa >

2. ASUS A8N-SLi Premium/Socket 939/nForce4 SLI x 8/Dual DDR400/8-SATA/Dual PCI-Ex8/1394a/Silicon Image 3114R RAID Controller/AI CoolPipe MAINBOARD - THB 7,440 < http://www.thanni.com/index.php?main_page=...aca9372d2fc9e9d >

3. Dual DDR400 RAM < not found yet > - please advise!

4. Seagate 250GB Barracuda 7200.9 8MB Cache S-ATA II NCQ HDD Model "ST3250824AS" - THB 4,650 (5 years warranty)

or

Western Digital 250GB 7200RPM 8MB Cache S-ATA II HDD Model "WD2500JS" - THB 4,320 (3 years warranty)

No RAID

5. Case + PSU Compass "F228" Duke Series Black ATX Mid Tower Case 450w (20+4P) Power Supply Retail - THB 1,360 < http://www.thanni.com/index.php?main_page=...aca9372d2fc9e9d >

It's came to ~ 28K THB (without RAM, VGA, etc.)

Your comments please.

[Wallalai]

Bought "Kingston DDR400 512MB RAM x2" for my PC here and I'm satisfied.

Life warranty and 2000 baht each.

[Tywais]

I'm currently building a new system also very similar to the one the OP is building. These are the main components of the system. I did not include prices to prevent being jumped on by someone thinking I spent too much (I did shop around first though and bought for convenience and not to save a couple of hundred baht for a medium to high end system). Left is the item, right column is where purchased. S4T is shop4thai.com

ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe Diy (local)

ASUS Extreme EN6600GT/Silentcer/HTD/256MB Video card Diy (local)

HDD MAXTOR 250GB/SATA 2/CNQ/16Mb Buffer x2 7daysit.com

IDE Cooler Cable (round) x2 7daysit.com

Floppy Cooler Cable (round) 7daysit.com

Corsair RAM DDR400 1GB XMS 7daysit.com

This is high performance (low latency) memory and overclockable and includes it's own heatsink

AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ (Dual-Core) S4T

Coolmaster Real Power 450W power supply S4T

Fully supports the newest Intel standard ATX 12V Version 2.0

Super silent operation with intelligent fan speed control (< 20dBA)

Power consumption management by human computer interface

Support dual +12V1 and +12V2 outputs for higher power usage

Green power design to meet energy star and blue angle requirement

More then 75% efficiency at typical load operation

Higher reliability (MTBF > 400,000 hours)

Active power factor correction (PF > 0.99)

Cable Length 24 pin Motherboard Connector 600 mm

ATX 12V Connector 600 mm

4 pin Peripheral Connector 600mm

SATA Connector 600mm + 200 mm

Display Interface Connector 800 mm

4 pin Floppy Connector 150mm

Zalman CPU cooler CNPS7700 Jedicool.com

Zalman chipset cooler NB47J Jedicool.com

Cooler Master Centurion 532 Computer Case Jedicool.com

Thermaltake Silent Cat fan 12 CM Jedicool.com

LED Fan 80mm Blue Jedicool.com

200GB IDE drive (external USB) for backup

The twin drives will be operating in RAID 0 or 0+1 (haven't decided yet)

Reason for upgrade is due to doing a lot of multimedia work, CAD work, and physics simulation calculations and my current system, though good, just not up to the task.

As for memory, as Wallalai said Kingston is excellent memory and is usually what I always buy. In this case I decided to get premium memory for performance reasons.

[Firefoxx]

Condo, the internal specs sound OK, but why are you skimping and getting a cheap case? At the very least, get a proper power supply... for high-power systems, many many problems can be attributed to a lousy power supply (which are of course included with the lousy case).

God, the case comes with an "air duct". Dear god, not one of those!!! After all this discussion on cases... it comes to this.

For the RAM, you just buy 2 identical sticks of DDR 400. You don't need to buy anything fancy if you're not overclocking the memory... RAMBO or Apacer or the like are totally fine.

[The Coder]

For the RAM, you just buy 2 identical sticks of DDR 400. You don't need to buy anything fancy if you're not overclocking the memory... RAMBO or Apacer or the like are totally fine.

I got burned buying two identical sticks of the cheapest DDR400 RAM (Hynix) recently. It has cas=2 latency (the very worst allowed) which hurts performance. You really need to look at the cas value when buying ram if you care about performance. The bigger problem is the mobo auto detects it as DDR333 dual channel. Most joe blow pc users would never go into the bios and notice it like I did. I overrode it to DDR400 dual channel, but it results in the system being unstable (crashes every hour or so). So now I feel stupid, I tried to save a few baht buying a generic brand instead of something nice like some Corsair cas=0 RAM.

[Tywais]

Condo, the internal specs sound OK, but why are you skimping and getting a cheap case? At the very least, get a proper power supply... for high-power systems, many many problems can be attributed to a lousy power supply (which are of course included with the lousy case).

Firefoxx is right on about that. Also from the basic spec you showed I don't think it will work with the ASUS AMD board. This requires a 24pin not 20pin power connector plus an additional 4pin 12Volt connector.

[Firefoxx]

I haven't had any bad experiences with cheap memory so far... I've used RAMBO, PQI, and Apacer, which are pretty much the cheapest out there. You can pay a bit more for kingston value ram, but there's a reason it's called value ram. As for corsair stuff, it's a bit pricey, and again, I have no idea why you would buy it if not overclocking.

I know that for notebooks, most shops sell only Kingston, which is a pity. Apacer ram works just as well, and is around 20-40% cheaper.

[MikeWill]

Thanks Firefoxx, as tywais mentioned you are right - it's difficult to argue with logic.

And thanks to the tywais specs, I'll probably follow with the same case and PSU:

- Case - Cooler Master Centurion 532 - THB 2,250 < http://www.jedicool.com/list.php?cate=1&productid=235 >

- PSU - CoolerMaster Real Power 450 - THB 3,103 < http://shop4thai.com/en/product/?pid=13429 >

There is another PSU (not sure if it's OK tho') - Enermax EG465P 460W. - THB 2,790 < http://www.jedicool.com/list.php?cate=6&productid=268 >

BTW tywais, I am a bit confused, almost all PSU are 20+4Pins, refer to < http://www.thanni.com/index.php?main_page=...aca9372d2fc9e9d >

That's why, better I'll follow your steps with the PSU.

This change will add to the total price, which now will be ~32K THB and ~ 36-37K THB with 1GB RAM.

Thanks again to all.

[Tywais]

BTW tywais, I am a bit confused, almost all PSU are 20+4Pins, refer to < http://www.thanni.com/index.php?main_page=...aca9372d2fc9e9d >

That's why, better I'll follow your steps with the PSU.

All standard ATX power supplies are/were 20 pin but new boards require higher currents and thus more connections to supply them to the mainboard, thus the 24 pin connectors. I installed a new MB for my office computer some time ago only to find out I had to replace the power supply (20 pin + 4pin) with a 24 pin + 4pin. The majority of MBs are still 20 or 20 + 4 so most power supplies being sold are that also.

From ASUS website:

24-pin ATX Power connector

4-pin ATX 12V Power connector

Regarding the Enermax power supply the only red flag I see is MTBF Greater than 100K hours while the CoolerMaster PS shows 400K hours.

Edited March 2, 2006 by tywais

[MikeWill]

Thanks a lot for clarifications tywais. they are very helpful indeed.

So, it will be CoolerMaster Real Power 450 PSU - THB 3,103 < http://shop4thai.com/en/product/?pid=13429 >

[MikeWill]

Bought "Kingston DDR400 512MB RAM x2" for my PC here and I'm satisfied.

Life warranty and 2000 baht each.

Where did you bought them?

[The Coder]

Intel will ship quad core processors at the end of the this year! 2006 seems to be the year everything drifts to dual core. It looks as if 2007 will be the quad core year for both AMD and Intel.

http://www.earthwebhardware.com/chips/article.php/3586171

[Tywais]

Intel will ship quad core processors at the end of the this year! 2006 seems to be the year everything drifts to dual core. It looks as if 2007 will be the quad core year for both AMD and Intel.

http://www.earthwebhardware.com/chips/article.php/3586171

I liked this comment.

"With each additional core, the demand for multithreaded software becomes greater. Otherwise, you've got not just one core spinning its wheels, but three."

I suspect software developers will start the move to multi-threading apps in the not too distant future since it appears multi-core will become more the standard in the next 2-3 years.

[h90]

think what nice games we'll get in the future...

Intel will ship quad core processors at the end of the this year! 2006 seems to be the year everything drifts to dual core. It looks as if 2007 will be the quad core year for both AMD and Intel.

http://www.earthwebhardware.com/chips/article.php/3586171

I liked this comment.

"With each additional core, the demand for multithreaded software becomes greater. Otherwise, you've got not just one core spinning its wheels, but three."

I suspect software developers will start the move to multi-threading apps in the not too distant future since it appears multi-core will become more the standard in the next 2-3 years.

[MikeWill]

After an interval of a year or so, yesterday I went to Pantip Plaza. It was crowded as always and confusing beyond belief. I wanted to see some parts for the new system I'm planning for, but... unfortunately was not able to find almost anything.

The CoolerMaster Centurion 532 (and also 530) cases are out of stock. The same for the PSU CoolerMaster Real Power 450, tho' the P/N: RS-450-ACLX (not: RS-450-ACLY) was available. As well as the 550W RS-550-ACLY, which is much more expensive.

Most shops do not have neither the MB (A8N-SLi Premium) nor the CPU (Athlon X2 3800+). All in all it was rather disappointed visit.

On the positive side (for Firefoxx refer to: http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=155&type=expert&pid=6), I saw the "4-in-3 Device Module" that can be mounted in three of the 5.25” drive bays in the CoolerMaster Centurion 530/532.

tywais,

We are looking forward for your photos and comments on the case and MB installation.

Edited March 11, 2006 by Condo_bk

[Tywais]

After an interval of a year or so, yesterday I went to Pantip Plaza. It was crowded as always and confusing beyond belief. I wanted to see some parts for the new system I'm planning for, but... unfortunately was not able to find almost anything.

The CoolerMaster Centurion 532 (and also 530) cases are out of stock. The same for the PSU CoolerMaster Real Power 450, tho' the P/N: RS-450-ACLX (not: RS-450-ACLY) was available. As well as the 550W RS-550-ACLY, which is much more expensive.

Most shops do not have neither the MB (A8N-SLi Premium) nor the CPU (Athlon X2 3800+). All in all it was rather disappointed visit.

On the positive side (for Firefoxx refer to: http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=155&type=expert&pid=6), I saw the "4-in-3 Device Module" that can be mounted in three of the 5.25” drive bays in the CoolerMaster Centurion 530/532.

tywais,

We are looking forward for your photos and comments on the case and MB installation.

I gave up on the Cooler Master 534, couldn't find any stock. However I did order the 530 and it arrived in two days. Very nice case indeed. Well built, lot's of room, two 12cm fan positions, hard disk fits in sideways making it really easy to install, all grilled front, and two CD hideaway trays keeping the front of the case clean.

The Athlon X2 3800+ and the Real Power 450 arrived within 3 days of ordering and the power supply fit like a glove. When I ordered the 3800+ they called me and said it would be a two week wait due to stock. However, 1 day later the stock came in (early). You're right about the 550W PS, big bump in price.

However am still waiting for my ASUS A8N32-SLI-Deluxe mainboard which is due to arrive on Tuesday (local order). My ASUS 6600GTX/silencer video card has arrived. Also my 2 SATAII 250GB drives are here so I'm all ready to get it put together hopefully by next week end.

[MikeWill]

tywais

"I gave up on the Cooler Master 534 ..."

It's probably a typo, you meant Cooler Master 532 - I'm still checking on it. Listed price is THB 1,990.

What is the part number of your Real Power 450? Is it: RS-450-ACLY ? How much is it?

Athlon X2 3800+ is now quoted at THB 13,900.

A8N-SLi Premium - THB 7,150.

[poorfarang]

where can I buy at that price?

[Tywais]

tywais

"I gave up on the Cooler Master 534 ..."

It's probably a typo, you meant Cooler Master 532 - I'm still checking on it. Listed price is THB 1,990.

What is the part number of your Real Power 450? Is it: RS-450-ACLY ? How much is it?

Athlon X2 3800+ is now quoted at THB 13,900.

A8N-SLi Premium - THB 7,150.

You're right it is the Centurion 532, had been looking at the 534 recently but didn't fancy it at all.

The power supply I ordered here RS-450-ACLY at 3103.00B. If you can find it locally it will probably be a little cheaper then that.

I am also going to upgrade my office computer with nearly the same specs. But standard DDR400 memory rather then premium and an A8N-SLI mainboard (budget limits at the lab).