Thais Score Lowest In T O E F L

[unanimosity]

Sorry but I just don't believe the numbers quoted:

- Thai students - 450 - believable.

- Singapore students - 550 - not believable because teachers actually teach 99%

of all classes in English in singapore, students totally immersed in English from

day 1 at Kindergarten. The averageTOEFL score for Singapore students must be

a lot higher than 550 / the gap cannot be just 100, impossible.

Another case of Thai media whitewashing. It happens every minute, or every day here in the LOS. In a nationwide study done some time ago, Thai math teachers were given the same exam they give their students, and there was an 84% failure rate. How are the students expected to learn, when the teachers know so little about what they are supposedly teaching? What is going on in the schools here? Why are they so poor? Why doesn't anyone care? Why does the government not get involved? Why can't they appoint just one minister (education) not based on cronyism, but rather based on qualifications, and talent? If Thailand does not start catching up, they will literally be left in the dust by their neighbors.

It has been rather dusty lately. And, do you think the numbers provided in the OP were compiled by tourism calculators at TAT?

[farangme]

I am from Singapore and have lived and operated businesses here for the last 7 years. English language is a first language for all students in Singapore, with our mother tongue being the 2nd language. In the early years since independence, we depended on native speaking (predominantly British) teachers. The conscious effort back then to groom local English teachers by setting up a structured teaching college made the big difference. Over a short period of time since then, English could be taught cheaply to the masses at a fairly high standard.

My generation of cohort (born in early sixties) onwards all think in English, and most of our children spoke English even before Mandarin, Malay, Tamil or dialects.

For Thailand to catch up, it has to adopt a concerted effort to bring in English educationists ( different from teachers) to set up a solid development program over the next 10-20 years. A large part of that program has to be the training of local English teachers, by qualified, native speaking trainers. That pool of local teachers will also have to undertake the role of trainers, for other local teachers. These qualified trainers must develop a curriculum suitable for Thailand. Over time, that curriculum has to be made more rigorous, raising the standards to be on par with Philippines, Malaysia, and eventually Singapore.

It's a long road but it can be done if the government is serious about survival in the AEC era.

I had the pleasure to spend the last couple of days with a friend's family, who has a son who graduated from Chula. Whilst we managed to communicate fairly well, his standard of English is probably close to a 1st year Secondary School mediocre student in Singapore. It's a combination of weak foundation in the language and lack of practise. That says a lot for the standards here for someone from the top university in Thailand.

"It's a long road but it can be done if the government is serious about survival in the AEC era."

The obstacle of course is the proclivity of locals, through institutionalized culture, to buy their degrees and certifications instead of fully earning them. That is what happens when nobody fails in school, and when teachers take money after school for "tutoring" instead of teaching during classroom hours. .

As long as the cheating/corrupt practices are ingrained in the education culture, Thais will always face an uphill battle to progress on this matter.

[NoshowJones]

When those teaching english can barely speak the language then it doesn't look bright. Those with kids being taught english by thais at school will know what I mean.

The results do not surprise me one iota. Of all 58 countries in Asia,Thailand is 56th in English proficiency.

And when you have the entire population with an average IQ level 10% below the likes of Singapore, Hong Kong and markedly below other ASEAN countries what hope have you got.

It is a simple fact that to teach English effectively the teach should be a native English speaker.

My personal belief (shared by the majority of Caucasians who have been here for any length of time) is that Thais and Thailand are so xenophobic that there is almost a an unwritten policy not to encourage the children to learn English.

The average hooker has a better level of English proficiency than the majority of Thai teachers.

I see where you are coming from, but not quite true, I have worked as an English teacher, never been involved with prostitutes although I have walked down Beach Road in Pattaya and Soi Cowboy. I treat prostitutes as human beings earning a living, and will talk to them as I will talk to anyone who approaches me as long as they are clean and not drunk, but Thai English teachers although not perfect, can certainly speak much better English than the average prostitute.

[NoshowJones]

As an approved TOEFL testing center i am confused i thought the test was out of 120 a score of 30 can be achieved on all 4 elements , I believe TOEIC scores like this but i could be wrong

You seem to be saying you are testing English proficiency. Oh my god!

Exactly, the English is dreadful.

[youngXpat]

Is this story/are these results really that surprising?

I think most ' amazingly' The Ministry of Education are keeping English as a Foreign Language, not a Second Language. They put the emphasise on written skills throughout a child's school life. This means that the kids that major in English at uni, often can read and write quite well but can't speak a word. A good percentage of these students then return to schools as teachers and the problem continues almost accepted as TIT.

Old story coming to light again.

[Tatsujin]

Thais score lowest in TOEFL

No surprises there then . . . next!

[bonobo]

There's NO WAY in Hades Singapore and Malaysia are tied.

I think they're not even close to being in the same ballpark. And the numbers in Myanmar, Laos and Cambodia are probably skewed a bit because there are so few students from those countries actually taking the TOEFL on a yearly basis, especially Laos and Myanmar.

Most of the Myanmar students taking it are probably international school students planning to study abroad, coming from fairly wealthy backgrounds.

Whereas a lot of Thai students have the vague idea of studying abroad, in the US, England/UK, Australia, NZ, Canada (especially for Thais), but there are more students around the world choosing to take the IELTS exam than TOEFL.

For a number of reasons, IELTS is becoming more of the standard and more and more commonly is being accepted in the US in lieu of a qualifying TOEFL score.

Another reason for the low Thai scores (besides digressing into a pointed attack on the Thai education system, the lack of English used outside of the touristy areas, disdain for foreign influence coming from the government) is simply that MOST Thai students don't choose America for studies because of the ease of studying in another countries like Canada or Australia that are more aggressive in pursuing Thai students.

Whereas the US is presently consumed with swallowing up as many Chinese and Indian students as possible because of the rapidly increasing GDP and disposable incomes in the elite class...with those monies now being allocated to international schools, tutors, study abroad/student exchange programs and the hiring of placement agents, etc.

Finally, Thailand and much of Asia doesn't tend to be centered on a reading/literature culture. This is going to be hard to overcome, and it's an issue all across Asia, not just Thailand.

Canada and Australia speak English, last I heard. Even if some Thai students take the IELTS now, how does that lower others in taking the TOEFL? If you can speak and write English, either exam should reflect that.

[Tywais]

Post removed quoting the Bangkok Post.

31) Bangkok Post do not allow quotes from their news articles or other material to appear on Thaivisa.com. Neither do they allow links to their publications. Posts from members containing quotes from or links to Bangkok Post publications will be deleted from the forum. Please note that this is a decision by the Bangkok Post, not by Thaivisa.com and any complaints or other issues concerning this rule should be directed to them. Quotes from and links to Phuketwan are also not allowed and will also be removed. In special cases forum Administrators or the news team may use these sources.

[caulfield2]

There's NO WAY in Hades Singapore and Malaysia are tied.

I think they're not even close to being in the same ballpark. And the numbers in Myanmar, Laos and Cambodia are probably skewed a bit because there are so few students from those countries actually taking the TOEFL on a yearly basis, especially Laos and Myanmar.

Most of the Myanmar students taking it are probably international school students planning to study abroad, coming from fairly wealthy backgrounds.

Whereas a lot of Thai students have the vague idea of studying abroad, in the US, England/UK, Australia, NZ, Canada (especially for Thais), but there are more students around the world choosing to take the IELTS exam than TOEFL.

For a number of reasons, IELTS is becoming more of the standard and more and more commonly is being accepted in the US in lieu of a qualifying TOEFL score.

Another reason for the low Thai scores (besides digressing into a pointed attack on the Thai education system, the lack of English used outside of the touristy areas, disdain for foreign influence coming from the government) is simply that MOST Thai students don't choose America for studies because of the ease of studying in another countries like Canada or Australia that are more aggressive in pursuing Thai students.

Whereas the US is presently consumed with swallowing up as many Chinese and Indian students as possible because of the rapidly increasing GDP and disposable incomes in the elite class...with those monies now being allocated to international schools, tutors, study abroad/student exchange programs and the hiring of placement agents, etc.

Finally, Thailand and much of Asia doesn't tend to be centered on a reading/literature culture. This is going to be hard to overcome, and it's an issue all across Asia, not just Thailand.

Canada and Australia speak English, last I heard. Even if some Thai students take the IELTS now, how does that lower others in taking the TOEFL? If you can speak and write English, either exam should reflect that.

Because over the last 2-3 years, there's been a huge shift, with more and more students concentrating on IELTS and fewer taking the TOEFL exam. And I'm pretty sure the US isn't the #1 destination for Thai high school students, whereas it assuredly is for Chinese/Indian.

The tests are quite different....as someone noted, particularly the American cultural and sports references/phrases/idioms, etc. Plus, you have to make a choice between listening to British English and American style English in your test prep.

One would think of the students that are taking the TOEFL, many of them are very serious about studying specifically in America. From reading those tables, the Thai scores aren't miserable and are actually pretty much in the middle of ASEAN countries.

[KuhnPaen]

Isn't it just because most Thai students are lazy? From what I've seen, they would rather text each other, pose for Instagram pictures in class, and otherwise just goof off on their parents money. If they have enough money to get an education, then they are usually spoiled to begin with. There is absolutely no comparisson between a Japanese or Korean student and a Thai. The Japanese or Korean student will try very hard to impress their parents and work hard to get good grades (not all of course, but most). The Thais just tend to dick around in class. I think the Thais have kind of a "French attitude" about their language and culture, and don't feel the need to learn English. Just sayin.

[bonobo]

The tests are quite different....as someone noted, particularly the American cultural and sports references/phrases/idioms, etc. Plus, you have to make a choice between listening to British English and American style English in your test prep.

One would think of the students that are taking the TOEFL, many of them are very serious about studying specifically in America. From reading those tables, the Thai scores aren't miserable and are actually pretty much in the middle of ASEAN countries.

Not to be argumentative, but I still don't buy it. While there certainly can be "teaching to the test," I think the overall competency of English skills is a factor of the entire body of that student's education. If a student can speak and write English to the X level, then either test should reflect about the same level vis-a-vis students taking the tests in other countries in the region. A test is merely a reflection of a level of skill. And if one test is flawed, with too much representation of cultural idiosyncracies, for example, then that bias should be reflected equally in all countries of a region. Laotians and Cambodians would logically have the same problems with references to American-specific aspects of a test.

Unless the increased popularity of the IELTS somehow eliminates or lessens a students ability to take preparation courses for the TOEFL when compared to other countries, then the IELTS in and of itself should have no impact on Thai students' TOEFL scores when compared to students of neighboring countries. There has to be another reason for the disparity.

[Fookhaht]

When you graduate with your bachelor's degree in Thailand, teaching is what you do when you can't get any other kind of work. No wonder the standards remain so low. Curiously, teachers have a high social status in Thailand with the level of honor just below the monarchy and parents. One of many enigmas in LOS.

[SchuetzRob]

I agree with some of the comments made in regards to the quality of teachers. I know of so many non native speakers that are teaching English its worrying.

I think the core of all this and it also relates to other parts of their culture is like many things they don't take the issue seriously and don't want to invest in the future of English proficiency. Hence you end up with a system where you either have Thai teachers trying to teach English or non native people accepting lower wages to do it instead of setting up a system of high quality qualified native speakers.

being a native english speaker alone does not automatically qualify anybody as an english language teacher. backpackers teaching for a short period - without having any qualification except being native english speakers - is worrying as well. as to the problem of lower wages, i agree that in europe you can earn more than in thailand. but compared to the wages of thai teachers of english these wages seem to be quite higher. nevertheless, having a look at the job board on(link edited out), it seems obvious that quite a few qualified native english speakers are willing to accept these wages. as long as qualified teachers of english - native speakers or not - accept these wages for whatever reason, there is really no need for the schools to change anything.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Scott
Link edited out

[MisterE]

Sorry but I just don't believe the numbers quoted:

- Thai students - 450 - believable.

- Singapore students - 550 - not believable because teachers actually teach 99%

of all classes in English in singapore, students totally immersed in English from

day 1 at Kindergarten. The averageTOEFL score for Singapore students must be

a lot higher than 550 / the gap cannot be just 100, impossible.

Well I think it is the other way round. Singaporeans might have averaged 550 - but Thais averaging 450 ? Well unbelievable. There cannot be just a 100 points gap. I think the Average Thai score might be around 250-300.

^ This is the more likely scenario, I agree completely. Typical face saving tactics by Thais to just plain LIE about the scores to mitigate the damage this causes to their precious "national face."

The problem is 2-fold and it is not the fault of foreign, native speaking, English teachers. Even if some or many of them are not terribly competent teachers (by Western standards) for a variety of reasons. It's very true that Thai English teachers are nearly 100% incompetent dinosaurs who have been at it for 20+ years and have a sense of entitlement. They get by hiding their low proficiency behind grammar books and lecturing to the students, in Thai, about English grammar. Yet, they can't have a 3 sentence conversation in the hallway with their foreign colleagues about how their weekend was. Thai students hate English class because of this and by the time they ever make it in front of a foreign teacher they are so turned off to learning English that the first job of the foreign teacher is to try to undo all the mistakes they have been taught by their Thai English grammar lecturers. I won't even dignify them with the title of "teacher."

The first problem is right in the text of the press release.

Sriwika advised lecturers |to make English the first language in campuses and start using technical terms more often while lecturing.

Hello dumbass Sriwika, lecturing is the absolute worst teaching methodology for language acquisition. Immersion is the only way to make real progress and that means student centered learning with activities that force the students to communicate with each other in English. The teacher should be talking for only long enough to describe what the activity is the students will be doing. Teacher talk time should be 15% of class time, the rest of the time students should be speaking, in English. Of course, this type of teaching is impossible in ill equipped classrooms with class sizes that regularly approach 60 students. These communicative, student centered, classes need to be followed up with homework assignments where students are forced to use the language outside of the classroom. They should have to go do research and be given individual assignments so they can't all just copy the paper of the student with the best proficiency in class.

The second problem is simply Thai laziness and I do not mean that in a derogatory way. Most Thai students see very little use for English in their lives and are only interested in learning the bare minimum possible to get by. Even Thais who work in industries where a higher English proficiency would benefit their jobs / careers have zero interest in improving their English beyond the bare minimum necessary to do their job.

Combine these 2 factors and you have an impossible situation / system to fix. There is no band-aid fix for this. All the incompetent Thai teachers should be fired and others retrained to use communicative, student centered methodologies. English class sizes should be reduced drastically (20 per class maximum) and they need more contact hours with competent foreign teachers who understand how to teach Thai students. Also, teachers' workloads should be decreased to teaching a maximum of 16 hours per week, instead of the current 20-24 per week, so they have time to prepare good lessons and give students quality feedback on assignments.

Teaching Thai students is very different from teaching students from anywhere else in the Asia and possibly the whole world. It's an acquired skill that can only be learned on the job. I have seen plenty of great teachers come from a Western education system to teach in Thailand and within a year they are pulling their hair out due to the backwards way Thai admin want them to do their jobs so, they move on. This is why teacher turnover is so high even in the "better" schools and it is the good ones that move on leaving Thailand to scrape the bottom of the barrel to fill the positions.

The system needs to be completely reprogramed and rebooted but we all know that will never happen in this country.

Edited February 28, 2013 by MisterE

[chaihot]

Most Pinoys I know, even with Master's degrees or PHD's in language/linguistics, still have a terrible time with grammar and never lose their pronunciation/inflection/intonation unless they move abroad for a long period of time.

It is because of WHO taught them to speak English. More than 90% of English language teaching in the Philippines was *NOT* by native speakers. They learn English the "Philippine" way using Phillippine pronunciation.

EXAMPLE: The Tagalog A, for example, always produces the AH sound, as in BAKIT. It never sounds like BAKE-IT or BACK-IT. There is only one A sound in Tagalog. Therefore "Bang-Kawk" is what is said -- rather than the usual pronunciation of BANG-Kock. Tagalog words are pronounced exactly as they are spelled, English doesn't work that way. In English, spelling and pronunciation are only loosely related. Until Philippino speakers are taught by a native English speaker, they won't get over this method of speaking the words incorrectly.

But you are correct - they are world's ahead of the Thais when it comes to English. Besides the Catholic Church as you mentioned, the Philippines declared English as the official language of contracts and signs. That has had a major effect. English as the offical contract language of Thailand will not happen in my lifetime.

And although the Thailand government says that English needs to be taught, the populice isn't as willing to embrace this change.

Thailand's Education Ministry has decreed 2012 as English Speaking Year in all schools. The project requires students to speak the language at least one day a week, to prepare the kingdom for ASEAN integration in 2015.

The government also created free English lessons for government workers. And a majority of those workers refused to attend the classes because they believe English will eradicate their culture and language.

Thailand will lose out if they stay on their current path.

[Tatsujin]

First things first, remove the "no fail" policy that pervades academia here.

[fxe1200]

"....The average hooker has a better level of English proficiency than the majority of Thai teachers..."

Please excuse the selective very pertinent quote: but how can it be that a Thai student can go all the way through school and university never have spoken directly too a native speaker? Just ridiculous.

It does not have to be a native speaker, but it should be somebody with a profound knowledge of the language and has travelled or worked in an English speaking country, not Wales though.

[SchuetzRob]

"....The average hooker has a better level of English proficiency than the majority of Thai teachers..."

Please excuse the selective very pertinent quote: but how can it be that a Thai student can go all the way through school and university never have spoken directly too a native speaker? Just ridiculous.

the answer to your question unfortunately has nothing to do with native speakers or not. every student will pass english exams regardless of the acquired level. as to exposure to native english speakers, the chances of any learner to interact with a native english speaker in normal life in thailand seems to be limited. it might also be a good thing to reflect that out of all the speakers of english in the world, the group of the native english speakers is not the largest. speakers of english as a second language and english as a foreign language these days outnumber the native speakers.

[SICHONSTEVE]

When you graduate with your bachelor's degree in Thailand, teaching is what you do when you can't get any other kind of work. No wonder the standards remain so low. Curiously, teachers have a high social status in Thailand with the level of honor just below the monarchy and parents. One of many enigmas in LOS.

Surely not higher than the fine, upstanding and honourable politicians that serve this country!!!!.

[Fookhaht]

I am a trained teacher with a B.S. and M.Ed, teaching at a Thai university (OK, please don't look up all my past posts and jump on typos or grammar errors!)

Unfortunately, I have lost count of the backpackers among whom I've had to teach alongside--most of whom had no inkling of how to teach a class, but were hired simply because they were white and a native speaker. Often a recent graduate (college OR high school grad) is hired simply on the basis of attractiveness (young and handsome/beautiful) so to act as a trophy-magnet for an English department's student-recruiting purposes. Several "teachers" sported fake credentials and were only found out because of gross incompetence or negligence a year or so later after the damage had been done.

The educational institutions here have a long way to go in learning how to screen teaching staff, and holding to a reasonable academic standard.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Fookhaht

[MisterE]

as to the problem of lower wages, i agree that in europe you can earn more than in thailand. but compared to the wages of thai teachers of english these wages seem to be quite higher.

So what if foreigners are paid considerably more than Thai teachers, it's still not enough. Any idea how much Thais with graduate levels of education spend for their education? You can earn a PhD in this country for under a million Baht. I spent that much on the first 2-years of my tertiary education. Foreigners come from a better education system and should be compensated as such.

Edited February 28, 2013 by MisterE

[MisterE]

First things first, remove the "no fail" policy that pervades academia here.

Hear hear!!!!

[laocowboy2]

Sorry but I just don't believe the numbers quoted:

- Thai students - 450 - believable.

- Singapore students - 550 - not believable because teachers actually teach 99%

of all classes in English in singapore, students totally immersed in English from

day 1 at Kindergarten. The averageTOEFL score for Singapore students must be

a lot higher than 550 / the gap cannot be just 100, impossible.

Exactly what I thought while reading the report ...

I may have a solution/explanation. Presumably TOEFL scores are only recorded for those who take a TOEFL test. As most Singaporeans speak fluent English (or at least, 'Singlish') they are unlikely to be taking the test at all. Those taking it are likely to be Singapore residents from non-English speaking countries such as Indonesia and Bangladesh. Hence 550 as thy will have ben taught by native English languag spekers from Singapore or elsewhere.

[SICHONSTEVE]

First things first, remove the "no fail" policy that pervades academia here.

Hear hear!!!!

Never going to happen!!

[harber8]

The message is getting through.

A lot of schools in BKK, including my own, have opened Intensive English Programmes in the past year. This means the students get an English lesson or two everyday instead of the old one a week

All a bit late for ASEAN though. The results of this will take 10+ years to be seen.

[SchuetzRob]

as to the problem of lower wages, i agree that in europe you can earn more than in thailand. but compared to the wages of thai teachers of english these wages seem to be quite higher.

So what if foreigners are paid considerably more than Thai teachers, it's still not enough. Any idea how much Thais with graduate levels of education spend for their education? You can earn a PhD in this country for under a million Baht. I spent that much on the first 2-years of my tertiary education. Foreigners come from a better education system and should be compensated as such.

i see your point. however, why do you think the schools should pay higher salaries if there are qualified teachers of english who are willing to accept the offered salaries....

[Fookhaht]

The message is getting through.

A lot of schools in BKK, including my own, have opened Intensive English Programmes in the past year. This means the students get an English lesson or two everyday instead of the old one a week

All a bit late for ASEAN though. The results of this will take 10+ years to be seen.

I've seen these encouraging moves too. I guest-taught in a local high school EP for just an afternoon. i was flabbergasted (that's "gobsmacked" for my Brit friends). The 12 year old students were better than university freshmen English majors.

[MisterE]

I am a trained teacher with a B.S. and M.Ed, teaching at a Thai university (OK, please don't look up all my past posts and jump on typos or grammar errors!)

Unfortunately, I have lost count of the backpackers among whom I've had to teach alongside--most of whom had no inkling of how to teach a class, but were hired simply because they were white and a native speaker. Often a recent graduate (college OR high school grad) is hired simply on the basis of attractiveness (young and handsome/beautiful) so to act as a trophy-magnet for an English department's student-recruiting purposes. Several "teachers" sported fake credentials and were only found out because of gross incompetence or negligence a year or so later after the damage had been done.

I hope you read my post here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/622394-thais-score-lowest-in-t-o-e-f-l/page-4#entry6157749 for some contrast to the experiences you describe.

The educational institutions here have a long way to go in learning how to screen teaching staff, and holding to a reasonable academic standard.

Well, I certainly agree with you on this.

[MisterE]

The message is getting through.

A lot of schools in BKK, including my own, have opened Intensive English Programmes in the past year. This means the students get an English lesson or two everyday instead of the old one a week

All a bit late for ASEAN though. The results of this will take 10+ years to be seen.

IEPs, EPs and MEPs are cash cows for schools, literally gold mines. You think they are opening everywhere for the benefit of the students? If so you're sadly mistaken.

Education is a business everywhere in the world but only in Thailand, that I know of, would profit, e.g. making payments on the school director's new Benz, be put so far ahead of the welfare of students. Most schools won't even spring for books and resources for the students and even when teachers who care pony up and buy their own they are confronted with draconian copy policies at the school to save a few Baht.

Edited February 28, 2013 by MisterE

[caulfield2]

Sorry but I just don't believe the numbers quoted:

- Thai students - 450 - believable.

- Singapore students - 550 - not believable because teachers actually teach 99%

of all classes in English in singapore, students totally immersed in English from

day 1 at Kindergarten. The averageTOEFL score for Singapore students must be

a lot higher than 550 / the gap cannot be just 100, impossible.

Exactly what I thought while reading the report ...

I may have a solution/explanation. Presumably TOEFL scores are only recorded for those who take a TOEFL test. As most Singaporeans speak fluent English (or at least, 'Singlish') they are unlikely to be taking the test at all. Those taking it are likely to be Singapore residents from non-English speaking countries such as Indonesia and Bangladesh. Hence 550 as thy will have ben taught by native English languag spekers from Singapore or elsewhere.

This makes a lot of sense as a possible reason/rationale for the seemingly low number.