Latest Developments on the Election Front

[hammered]

Sometimes I get a little confused when reading through these comments. It sounds like Thailand has a presidential system when constantly reading how most people will vote for Thaksin. I thought Thailand had a party system parliamentary democracy where people voted for a local representative who was a member of a politicl party. Surely if the people of the North and Isaan want TRT can they can vote them back in with or without Thaksin. Surely a party as large as TRT still has the same policies. Nobody is going to lose 30 baht health care or village funds just because one man is gone. In fact it is very likely we would have the samer government with the same policies and agendas but with a different leader.

[ColPyat]

Surely if the people of the North and Isaan want TRT can they can vote them back in with or without Thaksin. Surely a party as large as TRT still has the same policies.

Thai Rak Thai is Thaksin's creation. He is the party. Without Thaksin TRT will disintegrate, as the party is made up of a conglomerate of different former parties, feuding fractions and differing vested interests from all political and economical spectrums. The whole thing is kept together by Thaksin's personality, his money and his very clever maneuvering.

[boppia]

The people protesting want censorship stopped, accountable leadership, responsible government, and originally Thaksin to answer their questions. Thaksin refuses to be accountable to the people and his cronies won't make him be accountable. Thailand is very close to a dictatorship in my opinion. Everyone outside of TRT should just shut up it seems. TRT is defining freedom and democracy now.

I surfed through both protests last night. The anti-Thaksin protest had much more diversity that the pro-thaksin 'rally.'

The Pro-Thaksin assembly was pathetic. It was run only by men as far as I could see. Half of the people there were motorcycle Taxi and van drivers. The people on stage looked like hoodlums. I didn't see one woman on stage in the two hours I watched the event. The speakers repeated how wonderful the 30-baht health care was a hundred times, to the point that the audience looked bored. One woman in the audience even looked like she disagreed with what they we saying about the 30 baht medical system. Another thing that the speakers brought up was how most of the audience had only primary school education. The speakers demonized the anti-Thaksin people as being all Doctors. They said you don't need and education to know. Anyways, Thaksin has a doctorate! Why didn't they bring that up? Another strange thing was one person came out to speak and I believe he said I something like I am not going to say vote for Thaksin but just vote. He seemed to keep away from promoting Thaksin. I got the feeling he wasn't wholly with the Thaksin side. His time on stage seemed strange as so many of the others, henchmen-like guys, were out angrily promoting Thaksin and trying to get the audience to think that Sondi is corrupt, Santi Asoke is evil, Chamlong is crazy, and the people downtown were nuts. A side note, I think one person on the sidelines shouted something after the speaker mentioned a name like 'kill him' but I am not exactly sure. The speaker looked his way with a surprising smile like Wow!

Anyways generally what I saw was a pathetic rally lead by thug-looking men and audience that didn't really seem to know what was going on and sat passively compared to the protesters downtown.

On another note...

What amazes me is how posters I guess who are westerners can accept a leader who refuses to allow them information.

I can understand 1st generation westerners whose parents come from countries like Thailand or China accepting dictators but I just can't understand how someone whose family has roots in a western country which values freedom and access to information can accept less than that.

Edited March 19, 2006 by boppia

[lukamar]

Nobody is going to lose 30 baht health care or village funds just because one man is gone.

Agree with ColPyat and none of the other parties have any platform at all. If Thaksin was to leave things like health care and village funds would leave soon after as well. After all a lot of the protesters already have company provided health care or health care provided by the government and don't use the 30 Bt system anyway. It's the very poor that would end up without health care not the middle class or the rich.

[ColPyat]

The people protesting want censorship stopped, accountable leadership, responsible government,

That is very nice that people want all that. But if you think that anyone here in politics is giving that to them than you are dreaming. We never had that in Thailand under no government, ever.

Why is it that the PAD, if it wants all those nice things, welcomes politicians such as Sanoh Tienthong?

The speakers demonized the anti-Thaksin people as being all Doctors. They said you don't need and education to know.

And the Anti Thaksin speakers at Government House demonise Thaksin, belittle the village folks who support him in a very arrogant way. What's the difference?

The Pro-Thaksin assembly was pathetic. It was run only by men as far as I could see. Half of the people there were motorcycle Taxi and van drivers. The people on stage looked like hoodlums.

Well, i had a diferent impression. The majority of the people at the pro Thaksin rally were made up of the poorer sectors of society. Physically hardworking people generally do look rougher, all around the world. The speakers adapted their language to those villagers who often do have difficulties understanding central Thai, especially "pasa rajadgan". It is only natural that they have to respond to the educational background of their audience.

What you describe as 'bored' i would rather describe as far less emotionally volatile.

I, for example, spend some time at one of the campsites of the Caravan of the Poor, chatting with some of the villagers. I was welcomed friendly, i had no aggression whatsoever directed at me when i told them my position, that i neither like Thaksin nor Sondhi/Chamlong.

On the other hand, may i remind you at the incidents at the Royal Plaza rallies where lone Thaksin supporters appeared, and were physically attacked by the crowd? Fortunately though they were protected by policemen and organising staff against kicks and fists of enraged members of the anti Thaksin crowd.

What amazes me is that westerners are so blinded in their hate against Thaksin that they accept the worst sort of xenophobia, often crossing the line of fascism, in the speaches of the Anti Thaksin activists at government house.

Just because one may not like Thaksin does not mean that the other side is one bit better. May i remind you that the key people of the Anti Thaksin demonstration, Chamlong and Sondhi, have fully supported Thaksin during the drugwar killings and the Tak Bai massacre, and therefore have not shown much understanding of what i call "democracy" or "human rights".

[baht&sold]

My extended family in Chiang Rai, Chiang Mai and Phayao can't be bought and all will vote TRT. They are not uneducated, uninformed or farmers - just normal northerners who think Thaksin has done a good job.

I should also add that they would be very upset if he was driven out of office by what they see as a mob.

No offense but it appears from your posts both you and your extended family want to keep the status quo. That's fine. However, some in Thailand appear to have much higher aspirations for the country (beyond today) and that's a good thing imho

[Siripon]

Here's an example of the type of story of Thaksin mixing state affairs with his private business that will appear more and more as Thaksin weakens.

This story appeared in The Thai Rath, the most popular newspaper in Thailand last Wednesday and Thursday. In the past The Thai Rath was always pro-government, the article is by Nittipoon Nawarat, a regular and popular columnist on page 2.

Before the Apec meeting in Losca Bote in Mexico Thaksin sent the Thai ambassador to ask President Fox if Thaksin could sit with the president on the flight from Mexico City to Losca Bote; at first Fox refused because he had to welcome the Apec leaders one by one at Losca Bote with a guard of honour but Thaksin persisted and eventually he relented.

During the entire two and a half hour flight Thaksin talked about the possibilities of him entering the Mexican telecommunications sector. Exasperated, Fox cut him off by asking if Thaksin knew who had been his backer in the presidential election. When Fox replied, 'Mr Carlos Slim Helu,' Thaksin fell silent knowing Mr Helu was listed as the third richest man in the world in Forbes.

Mr Fox later said the flight was'not fun'.

When the plane landed, Fox naturally had to get off alone as he had to welcome every Apec leader present one by one,(except Thaksin of course). Thaksin remained on the plane and when it eventually parked he emerged the worse for wear due to alcohol much to the embarrassment of the officials sent to meet him who turned away in shame.

Regarding policies for the poor, it's unfair to say no parties have policies, The Democrats made 12 years free education a main policy along with decentralisation as prescribed by the constitution. They also had proposed a 500 baht year health care policy covering all the family.

It's plain to anyone that long term real improvements in the educational system, for example the abolition of multiple choice, is a key factor for Thailand's development but these long term goals don't sound catchy, unlike slogans such as One Scholarship, One District which do little to help the majority of children. Thaksin has never placed any emphasis on education.

Another development, which again is a chronic problem, is the uneven distribution of economic developments where all roads lead to Bangkok,resulting in millions of poor families being split up with the parents working in Bangkok and the grandparents taking care of the children in the villages,heartbreaking.

[ColPyat]

Regarding policies for the poor, it's unfair to say no parties have policies, The Democrats made 12 years free education a main policy along with decentralisation as prescribed by the constitution. They also had proposed a 500 baht year health care policy covering all the family.

12 years mandatory education may be free, but in reality it is to the disadvantage of the rural poor. Even now they struggle with the 9 year mandatory education due to far too many drop outs already. 12 years will only worsen this. The most important things, such as a proper landreform, and the promotion of sustainable agricultural scemes are neither attempted by Thaksin nor by the Democrats as the all powerful chemical industries and the exporters would lose some of their profits. Nor have i seen that any government starts taking away land held illegally by the rich and powerful.

And without laying that sort of groundwork nothing will happen regarding fighting poverty in Thailand.

And as to their other proposals, nice, but when are they gonna go and promote them in Isaarn and the North? Because those are the people who will decide the elections, and so far the Democrats have given Thaksin a free reign in those vital areas of Thailand.

[cclub75]

Nobody is going to lose 30 baht health care or village funds just because one man is gone. In fact it is very likely we would have the samer government with the same policies and agendas but with a different leader.

Oh you're wrong. They are going indeed to loose the 30 THB scheme. And you know why ? Because it's just a plain stupid policy, that the State can not afford very long.

Unless you increase taxes on a massive scale... Thailand becoming an european country for instance.

So stop dreaming, stop dreaming about thoses kind of policies : they are populists. And very easy to create. For some times. But after, it's always "check bin" time.

[seonai]

What is actually happening right now. Has the election been postponed?

[boppia]

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/9b39ee9c-b62b-11d...00779e2340.html

"For all his professed enthusiasm for modern management tools, Mr Thaksin in power has displayed many traits of the traditional Thai-Chinese tao kae, or business owner, ruling his dominion with an iron fist, making most key decisions himself, installing loyal relatives as subordinates and tolerating little dissent. Many in Bangkok have just had enough."

Sounds about right to me.

"'He claims to be a CEO running the country like a corporation, but it is an archaic corporation, not a modern corporation," says Somkiat Tangkitvanich, a policy researcher at the Thailand Development Research Institute. "Participation is not allowed and secrecy is normal. He micro-manages everything, makes all the decisions and has centralised power. He has brought in and promoted many of his relatives and classmates to high positions. This is certainly not modern - it is a kind of nepotism, cronyism.'"

Very good observation.

""He doesn't like being contradicted and he doesn't like to be disagreed with," said one Thai business executive. Once when a cabinet meeting was broadcast live on television, many Thais were aghast to see the premier lecturing his ministers, who were submissively taking notes. Civil servants complain he interfered with the bureaucracy and the army, polarising the institutions.

Mr Thaksin has also sought to control the airwaves as no elected Thai leader has done before. Until recent weeks, most dissenting voices were purged from television and radio, while the premier's pronouncements were slavishly aired."

Have I heard this before. This Thaksin is a take charge kinda guy.

The TRT, I mean, 'Democracy' Rally is on now. I like the funny guys who keep punching, kicking, and hitting the signs with Sondhi and Chamlong's names on them. I'm sure Thaksin approves of this. He's building his army like Pol Pot.

I like the guy who says that people upcountry know about politics. They've got TV and newspapers!

As for ColPyat, I won't deny that Thaksin has done some good. Even the people protesting him know that he has done some good. As for Chamlong cheering on the killing of people, I doubt that. Chamlong supported Thaksin before he got in. i don't recall him ever cheering Thaksin on since.

As for corrupt politicans sure there are some on both sides that doesn't mean the people have to accept them. The people want change. Trust me Sanoh isn't going to be the PM.

As for what is going on, Thailand wouldn't be in this situation if Thaksin had answered to the people on his actions. He isn't an average citizen, he has to be more accountable, don't you agree?

[ColPyat]

As for Chamlong cheering on the killing of people, I doubt that. Chamlong supported Thaksin before he got in. i don't recall him ever cheering Thaksin on since.

Chamlong has not only brought Thaksin into politics, he has taken his money gladly as well, for example Thaksin has helped funding Chamlong's manager school.

The first slight friction between Thaksin and Chamlong was the Liverpool Football Club thing, where Chamlong has asked Thaksin not to buy a foreign football club. That was after the drugwar killings. During the killings Chamlong has not distances himself from Thaksin - he was still a leading senior Thai Rak Thai member.

[boppia]

Who cares if Thaksin helped his school? It's good for developing the country. If its the place in Kanchanburi, I've been there.It is really very basic, they also help animals there.

As for the football club fiasco, well I agree with Chamlong on that.

Has Chamlong really beeen an active member of the TRT since Thaksin got in? I'll have to do a search for info on that. As for the killings, Chamlong is in Santi Asoke. Santi Asoke isn't about violence. Just because someone is or was a member or TRT that doesn't mean they approve of violence.

By the way a lot of the protesters voted for Thaksin in the past or are former TRT members.

Watching the rally at Chatuchak on TV, I had a flash in my mind that it was a lot like an Amway convention. On the other hand the audience seemed to be boxed in by thugs, which reminded me of the story of the Jim Jones 'Christian' Cult which forced 400 followers to drink poison KoolAid in a 'mass suicide' in French Guiana in the 70s.

I don't understand what TRT is doing. Like another poster said I think this is going ot have to be resolved by a higher power or this is going bad.

The only good thing I heard is that the anti-protesters are going to focus on education the countryside on what's going on with TRT. The truth may crash down on the TRT in near future.

[Siripon]

The Jamlong\Thaksin relationship puzzled me from the beginning. There was Jamlong, the so-called austere leader of Palang Tham, a 3 bowls of water a day for every bodily necessity vegetarian, handing over the party he founded to the ultra capitalist, Thaksin.

Talk about complete opposites.

[hammered]

Nobody is going to lose 30 baht health care or village funds just because one man is gone. In fact it is very likely we would have the samer government with the same policies and agendas but with a different leader.

Oh you're wrong. They are going indeed to loose the 30 THB scheme. And you know why ? Because it's just a plain stupid policy, that the State can not afford very long.

Unless you increase taxes on a massive scale... Thailand becoming an european country for instance.

So stop dreaming, stop dreaming about thoses kind of policies : they are populists. And very easy to create. For some times. But after, it's always "check bin" time.

I actually agree that these policies in the long term will either fall or involve increased tax collection or tax rates. However, my point is if Thaksin goes then after the next election whoever is in power will keep those policies. it will just be plain imposible not to, so the scare tactics of trying to convince the northern and north eastern people who support TRT that they will lose their health care remain only scare tactics. How much coverage they get under the scheme remains a moot point and seems to vary by location. Many of the "poor" I have met and discused this with in a northern province dont seem to like taking their chances on the 30 baht scheme, but that is another matter.

[DaveD]

Hi,

I hear a lot about the 30 baht health care system but i think i am right in thinking that people posting here dont actually use the system.

Do you know what you get for 30 baht?

Very little ,usually 10 paracetamol tablets ,whatever your ailment.

The system is so bad that most poor thais will scrape together 100-200 baht and go to a clinic(usually the private business of a govenment doctor) and get real treatment.

It seems that like a lot of things in Thailand,30 baht health care is another illusion,but looks good as an election topic.

My info comes from my wifes sister who lives up country and has no faith in the 30 baht system.

[ColPyat]

Hi,

I hear a lot about the 30 baht health care system but i think i am right in thinking that people posting here dont actually use the system.

Do you know what you get for 30 baht?

Very little ,usually 10 paracetamol tablets ,whatever your ailment.

The system is so bad that most poor thais will scrape together 100-200 baht and go to a clinic(usually the private business of a govenment doctor) and get real treatment.

It seems that like a lot of things in Thailand,30 baht health care is another illusion,but looks good as an election topic.

My info comes from my wifes sister who lives up country and has no faith in the 30 baht system.

Your information of your wife's sister is completely wrong.

I don't have to use the 30 Baht systhem, but lots of relatives of my wife and many friends do depend on it.

What they have got other than 10 paracetamol tablets:

-One friend had a fractured spine. She had a free operation placing metal at the spine, and had it taken out when healed. Without that she would have been paralised.

-Several relatives get free antiretroviral medicine for their HIV infection. Without that they would be dead already.

No doubt that the sceme is far from perfect, and seriously underfunded, but it still is the first national health sythem Thailand ever had.

[ColPyat]

Has Chamlong really beeen an active member of the TRT since Thaksin got in? I'll have to do a search for info on that. As for the killings, Chamlong is in Santi Asoke. Santi Asoke isn't about violence. Just because someone is or was a member or TRT that doesn't mean they approve of violence.

Yes, he has been.

And yes, Santi Asoke seems not to be about violence, but Chamlong has not distanced himself from Thaksin when the Drugwar killings went on 3 years ago. Why is that so?

Watching the rally at Chatuchak on TV, I had a flash in my mind that it was a lot like an Amway convention. On the other hand the audience seemed to be boxed in by thugs, which reminded me of the story of the Jim Jones 'Christian' Cult which forced 400 followers to drink poison KoolAid in a 'mass suicide' in French Guiana in the 70s.

Maybe you should have a look yourself at the Chatuchak rally, and talk with the people yourself.

The only good thing I heard is that the anti-protesters are going to focus on education the countryside on what's going on with TRT. The truth may crash down on the TRT in near future.

Do they really?

Then they should stop going on with the constant babble of the "sale of the country" as this is completely irrelevant to most people upcountry. They also should start presenting ideas how they would solve the problems of the rural poor. Just being against TRT is not enough.

[cclub75]

-One friend had a fractured spine. She had a free operation placing metal at the spine, and had it taken out when healed. Without that she would have been paralised.

-Several relatives get free antiretroviral medicine for their HIV infection. Without that they would be dead already.

No doubt that the sceme is far from perfect, and seriously underfunded, but it still is the first national health sythem Thailand ever had.

That's my point : how you can finance such operation under a "30 THB scheme" ?

No need to go to Harward business school to understand that there is a catch.

The catch is : debt.

I don't say that Thailand must not go on that path... I just say that it will require more than little Thaksin's brain to create a reliable and effective system.

Again that's the main problem with the so called Thaksinomics : it's just illusion.

[ColPyat]

I don't say that Thailand must not go on that path... I just say that it will require more than little Thaksin's brain to create a reliable and effective system.

Again that's the main problem with the so called Thaksinomics : it's just illusion.

Absolutely true.

And it will need more than a bit of brain to repair the long term damage that Thaksin has done to Thailand. And far more brain than the people of the PAD have.

[sriracha john]

Hi,

I hear a lot about the 30 baht health care system but i think i am right in thinking that people posting here dont actually use the system.

Do you know what you get for 30 baht?

Very little ,usually 10 paracetamol tablets ,whatever your ailment.

The system is so bad that most poor thais will scrape together 100-200 baht and go to a clinic(usually the private business of a govenment doctor) and get real treatment.

It seems that like a lot of things in Thailand,30 baht health care is another illusion,but looks good as an election topic.

My info comes from my wifes sister who lives up country and has no faith in the 30 baht system.

Your information of your wife's sister is completely wrong.

I don't have to use the 30 Baht systhem, but lots of relatives of my wife and many friends do depend on it.

What they have got other than 10 paracetamol tablets:

-One friend had a fractured spine. She had a free operation placing metal at the spine, and had it taken out when healed. Without that she would have been paralised.

-Several relatives get free antiretroviral medicine for their HIV infection. Without that they would be dead already.

No doubt that the sceme is far from perfect, and seriously underfunded, but it still is the first national health sythem Thailand ever had.

sort of... the Social Security Fund has been providing health care to workers since 1990; currently providing coverage to approximately 10 million Thais across the nation.

I agree the 30 baht health scheme is seriously flawed, grossly underfunded, and provides extremely low level of health care because most hospitals and doctors don't want to have anything to do with it. I'm glad to hear of your friend's success with it, but there are horror stories aplenty surrounding it. Certainly granted, it has provided some degree of medical care... but the tricky thing about medical care is that bad treatment is often worse than no care.

*edit*.... might we inquire as to your HIV+ relatives take on the pending Thaksin-initiated FTA with the USA? Do they believe their antivirals will continue to be affordable?

Edited March 19, 2006 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

Has Chamlong really beeen an active member of the TRT since Thaksin got in? I'll have to do a search for info on that.

Yes, he has been.

Certainly hasn't been the most cordial of relationships... going back to 2004 and many TRT bigwigs disgruntled by Chamlong's recommendation for BKK governor... and getting even worse later in the year when Chamlong's foundation was accused, by Newin no less, of land encroachment.

It's not like it's been a great love affair for quite some time.

[lukamar]

Hi,

I hear a lot about the 30 baht health care system but i think i am right in thinking that people posting here dont actually use the system.

Do you know what you get for 30 baht?

Very little ,usually 10 paracetamol tablets ,whatever your ailment.

The system is so bad that most poor thais will scrape together 100-200 baht and go to a clinic(usually the private business of a govenment doctor) and get real treatment.

My wife used to work directly with the 30 Baht system every day at Chiang Mai University Hospital (Suan Dok). There are definite problems with the system but one has to remember that it's just been started. Developed countries have had problems implementing universal health care so it's no surprise that the Thai system has problems. Yes it's expensive to operate and it needs a lot of tweaking but for some families that live on 4-6000Baht a month, or less, it's a glimmer of hope if something serious happens medically. There has to be some regard and responsibility by the well off to help the poor regardless of monetary cost if society is to function.

If DaveD's family found out that they needed a Heart Bypass who would pay for it, my guess is they would be knocking on Dave's door asking for help. The question is should the government provide health care for the poor or just let the poor die as in the past? That's a moral question that only you can answer but for me the poor are not necessarily poor from ignorance or lack of education but from circumstance and should be helped.

No offense but it appears from your posts both you and your extended family want to keep the status quo. That's fine. However, some in Thailand appear to have much higher aspirations for the country (beyond today) and that's a good thing imho

No offense taken. I don't just want to keep the status quo there are many changes that Thailand needs in the future for it and it's peoples and growth; but I'm slow to jump on the "All the problems in Thailand will go away if we get Thaksin Awk Pai" bandwagon, because Thailand's problems most obviously will not go away with his ouster, they may well get worse in the ensuing power vacuum.

While I agree that groups have the right to protest, I don't see them at present with a viable workable plan for Thailand in the long term and I see it as loosing ground if they have Thaksin removed. Not withstanding that Thaksin sold Shin and probably did a lot of other things, you cannot have a group threaten the structure or the country and run to the monarchy asking for help every time a group does not like the way something goes or they do not like the person in power. There is a process in the constitution and if Thaksin is charged and convicted then he should loose his rights under the constitution be fined or go to jail, but he should not be tried on a street corner by a rally, no matter what he may or may not have done.

[sriracha john]

Hi,

I hear a lot about the 30 baht health care system but i think i am right in thinking that people posting here dont actually use the system.

Do you know what you get for 30 baht?

Very little ,usually 10 paracetamol tablets ,whatever your ailment.

The system is so bad that most poor thais will scrape together 100-200 baht and go to a clinic(usually the private business of a govenment doctor) and get real treatment.

My wife used to work directly with the 30 Baht system every day at Chiang Mai University Hospital (Suan Dok). There are definite problems with the system but one has to remember that it's just been started. Developed countries have had problems implementing universal health care so it's no surprise that the Thai system has problems. Yes it's expensive to operate and it needs a lot of tweaking but for some families that live on 4-6000Baht a month, or less, it's a glimmer of hope if something serious happens medically. There has to be some regard and responsibility by the well off to help the poor regardless of monetary cost if society is to function.

If DaveD's family found out that they needed a Heart Bypass who would pay for it, my guess is they would be knocking on Dave's door asking for help. The question is should the government provide health care for the poor or just let the poor die as in the past? That's a moral question that only you can answer but for me the poor are not necessarily poor from ignorance or lack of education but from circumstance and should be helped.

Quite coincidentally.... but perhaps not surprisingly... two articles regarding the 30 baht scheme appear today, one involving university hospitals specifically:

BT30 SCHEME

Debt woes piling up for Siriraj

Hospital blames under-funded plan

Siriraj Hospital, the country's oldest medical school, is struggling with the spiralling number of high-cost patients who are entitled to treatment under the government's healthcare plan and are blamed for the hospital's Bt500 million debts.

"The situation in other university hospitals is no different," said Prof Piyasakol Sakolsataya-dorn, dean of the faculty of medicine.

"At every monthly meeting the financial impact [of the Bt30 scheme] is the main topic."

Over the past few years the number of patients referred to Siriraj under the Bt30 scheme has risen from less than 30 per cent to more than half this year, said the dean.

He said the hospital is being paid far below the cost of treatment due to the "impractical" regulations of payment imposed by the scheme.

Caesarean sections, carried out to the hospital's standards, require a team of gynaecologists, nurses and an anaesthetist, however, Piyasakol said Siriraj was paid at the same rate as a community hospital that did not even have a gynaecologist.

Siriraj's debts have risen from about Bt300 million three years ago to Bt500 million, in correlation with the rise in Bt30 patients, he said.

"We all know the scheme has insufficient investment," said Piyasakol. "And the government and the National Health Security Office need to face the reality."

University hospitals have to find extra income to fill the hole caused by the healthcare scheme and Siriraj relies largely on donations and payments for superior treatment by wealthier patients.

Piyasakol said the government's payment to the hospital was about 20 per cent of overall expenditure.

Due to its limited beds, Ramathibodi Hospital, in collaboration with Phyathai, a nearby private hospital, offers well-heeled patients beds at Phyathai while receiving care from Ramathibodi's medics.

"What can we do? We cannot reject patients. The patients sent to us all have serious and complicated conditions and are expensive to treat," said Piyasakol.

Despite saying the universities can still handle the situation, he conceded he did not know how long these hospitals could stay afloat.

University hospitals were geese that lay golden eggs, he said and were expected to produce the finest medical results, but this was being thrown into peril.

Last month, Thammasat University medical school said it would leave the Bt30 scheme and only receive cases referred from other hospitals. The hospital was running a deficit of about Bt105 million accumulated through providing treatment to patients under the Bt30 scheme.

- TN

----------------

and in the other article, it's a shame the Ministry doesn't devote more resources for better doctors instead of for better lawyers to fight lawsuits after the fact...

Bangkok Post:

Specialist lawyers hired to stem losses

Ministry wants to boost chances in court

After finding itself on the losing side in court battles, the Public Health Ministry has stepped up efforts to curb complaints from patients unhappy with medical treatment from doctors.

The ministry will recruit lawyers with expertise in medical science to give the government agency a better chance of winning in court.

The move to bring in specialised lawyers came after the ministry lost several legal battles over medical malpractice.

The most two prominent cases involved patients Dorak Pethpraset and Chanayuth Pathangtanay.

A court in Nonthaburi ordered the ministry last August to pay Mrs Dorak 800,000 baht for making her blind after giving her the wrong treatment. The ministry also gave her a free eye operation.

In February this year, the ministry was forced to pay the parents of six-year-old Chanayuth 4.5 million baht after he died undergoing dental treatment at a hospital in Nakhon Sawan.

Records on how many court cases involving patients and the ministry awaiting a verdict could not be obtained. But the data on the number of cases filed with the Medical Council of Thailand shows patient complaints are growing.

Most concern poor treatment in surgery, appendix and birth procedures.

The ministry and the National Health Security Office have also agreed to increase financial compensation to victims from 80,000 baht to a maximum of 200,000 baht in cases of death or severe disability.

For less severe cases, the compensation increased from 50,000 baht to up to 120,000 baht.

The right to compensation is available only for patients under the 30-baht healthcare scheme.

Dolaporn Lorsermwattana, chairwoman of the Thai Latrogenic Network, said increasing compensation was not the right way to tackle the problem of poor medical treatment.

''The ministry should focus on why the problem happens in the first place,'' Ms Dolaporn said.

Somsak Charoenchaipiyakul, the council deputy secretary-general, said patients tend to go to hospitals and clinics with high expectations.

''Most people believe all diseases can be cured. That is not true,'' Dr Somsak said.

particularly when the wrong treatment is given, right Doc?...

''People expect high medical standards but ignore the fact that doctors cannot cure all diseases,'' he said.

Doctors did not want to take risks, for fear of being sued.

''Community hospitals often refer operations to the provincial hospital because they are afraid of complaints. A small operation like an appendix operation is no longer undertaken in a community hospital,'' he said.

The universal healthcare scheme had also increased doctors' workload. Most doctors spent less than three minutes checking each patient, so they can see all patients in one day.

most likely not long enough to even detect the need for a heart bypass in the first place (as per your example)

[sriracha john]

TRT's tribute to the wonderful novel, Fahrenheit 451?:

Return of seized books sought

Bangkok senator Kaewsan Atipho has branded the seizure by police of 20,000 copies of a book entitled ''Stop the Thaksin Regime'' to be handed out to rally-goers as violating his right to disseminate information to the public. The book, written by Mr Kaewsan and his twin brother Kwansuang, is critical of caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra's work.

Dusit police seized the books during delivery yesterday and sent them to the Special Branch Bureau for ''examination.''

Pol Col Pansak Satsana-anand, a printing officer of the bureau, said the book might be deemed illegal for disrupting public peace and order.

The writers, along with Thammasat University law expert Somyos Chuethai, went to Dusit police station yesterday to demand that the books be returned for distribution to rally-goers by the People's Alliance for Democracy.

Mr Somyos said seizure of all the books was unreasonable as 10 or even 100 copies should be enough for an examination.

''Police are acting at someone's behest as many copies (of the total of 70,000) have already been distributed in Silom and Sanam Luang since March 13,'' Mr Kaewsan said. As of yesterday, no charges had been pressed against the writers.

The police printing committee will today decide whether the book had violated any laws. The decision to release the books rests with the Metropolitan Police Bureau.

Mr Kaewsan will petition the Administrative Court if the copies are not returned.

- BP

[lukamar]

Over the past few years the number of patients referred to Siriraj under the Bt30 scheme has risen from less than 30 per cent to more than half this year, said the dean.

For those that don't know how the system works, I'll try and explain it as best I can from what my wife just explained to me. I'll use her as an example, although she had Government health care as part of her job, consider she had none for this.

She is registered in our house book in Phayao. To be eligible for 30Bt health care she would have to go to the Government hospital in Phayao. Say we were in Chiang Rai and she fell down and broke her arm and we went to the Government hospital in Chiang Rai she would not be eligible for 30Bt. If she broke her arm in Phayao and went to the government hospital there and they determined that the injury was beyond their scope (say some kind of complication) they would refer her to a hospital with facilities to handle her case.

Herein lies a lot of the problem with 30Bt. Regional hospitals are usually, but not always, staffed with Doctors that handle general cases, some emergencies but with very few specialists. University hospitals, on the otherhand, are on the cutting edge in most cases and in most fields. University hospitals, from what I have been in, are as good as major teaching hospitals in Canada with very well trained specialists and modern equipment.. The Phayao hospital would refer her to Suan Dok rather than Chiang Rai, the next obvious choice, knowing that Suan Dok would defiantly be able to give specialized treatment. This puts an unfair load on the specialty hospitals from the referring hospitals. Both hospitals would submit their paperwork to the Government for payment.

Now this part my wife is not clear on, and it's got me totally baffled. Somewhere along the line 30Bt went from the concept of inexpensive treatment for the poor and underprivileged to universal coverage that is now costing a fortune. As I said previously there are definite problems with the system and possibly some type of cap or a means test should be implemented but the system is new and as such will take some time to even out. Scrapping the 30Bt system and not putting in something similar would really be a step backward for the poor's health standards. Putting in some sort of checks to insure those that needed but could not afford health care received treatment is logical and probably needed.

[girlx]

when i was last in NY i met a thai doctor who had come to study and work in the US because he couldn't handle working in thailand any longer. the reason? the 30 baht healthcare scheme was not run by doctors first.... and the cost of the medical work performed under the scheme ultimately has become a huge burden placed on the hospitals since the government does not cover the costs as promised. this affects doctors' pay and leads to cuts in staff, and many doctors simply gave up, until he was one of two working in a busy emergency room near victory monument. he said he thought the scheme was a good idea, but as usual in thailand the implementation was half assed.

[lukamar]

when i was last in NY i met a thai doctor who had come to study and work in the US because he couldn't handle working in thailand any longer. the reason? the 30 baht healthcare scheme was not run by doctors first.... and the cost of the medical work performed under the scheme ultimately has become a huge burden placed on the hospitals since the government does not cover the costs as promised. this affects doctors' pay and leads to cuts in staff, and many doctors simply gave up, until he was one of two working in a busy emergency room near victory monument. he said he thought the scheme was a good idea, but as usual in thailand the implementation was half assed.

There is defiantly are advantages to working in the US for foreign doctors especially monetarily. I know a couple Thai Doctors that have given up very lucrative US cardiac surgical practices and moved back to Thailand, once they made a nest egg, so they could pass on their knowledge back to improve Thailand's medical training.

At one point there was an exodus of Canadian Doctors to the US but their positions filled with Doctors from India, Britain, South Africa and elsewhere. Canadian medical is not administered by doctors either and I don't think it should be.

The 30 BT could do with a good tweak but as your friend said it's a good idea the implementation is what needs repair.

[sriracha john]

More charges and counter-charges:

TRT given ultimatum

The Democrat party yesterday set a 24-hour deadline for caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra to take action regarding alleged electoral fraud by three Thai Rak Thai executives as the Democrats continue to add weight to their accusations. ''The prime minister has 24 hours to do something [about the wrongdoing]. Otherwise, I will expose other deputy [Thai Rak Thai] party leaders who have committed similar misdeeds,'' said Democrat secretary-general Suthep Thaugsuban.

Mr Suthep disclosed on Thursday that three TRT executives were behind the ruling party's meddling with the Election Commission's database to allow disqualified candidates from smaller parties to run in the April 2 election.

He said the three TRT executives involved were caretaker Defence Minister and deputy party leader Thammarak Issarangkura na Ayudhaya, caretaker Transport Minister and deputy secretary-general of TRT Pongsak Raktapongpaisal, and Mr Thaksin's deputy secretary-general Prommin Lertsuridej.

Mr Suthep challenged the ruling party to take him to court so he would have a suitable venue in which to present all the incriminating evidence against TRT.

Mr Prommin said yesterday TRT lawyers would file a lawsuit against Mr Suthep today. He said Mr Suthep's actions aimed to discredit and derail the upcoming polls.

At a press conference at the Democrat party's headquarters yesterday, Mr Suthep introduced three people who were said to have witnessed the alleged fraud.

One of the witnesses, Chawakan Tosawat, was described as being the leader of a group of entrepreneurs and had been a member of the Pattana Chart Thai party since its foundation in 2003.

He told reporters he had met Gen Thammarak earlier this month at TRT headquarters where Gen Thammarak requested Pattana Chart Thai to field candidates in the April 2 general election. He said he received 50,000 baht in cash at the Defence Ministry to cover the application for candidates for the party list.

Gen Thammarak allegedly suggested Pattana Chart Thai compete in constituencies in Suphan Buri province, the stronghold of former prime minister Banharn Silpa-archa's Chart Thai party, in Sa Kaeo province, the stronghold of Sanoh Thienthong, who was leader of the Wang Nam Yen faction within TRT, as well as in the provinces of Ang Thong and Prachin Buri.

Mr Chawakan said a man claiming to represent Gen Thammarak gave him bundles of cash amounting to 900,000 baht to cover the cost of fielding 86 candidates under Pattana Chart Thai.

''We were told not to conduct campaigning until the final 10 days before April 2. Senior people would get things done and ensure some of us became MPs,'' he said. ''Personally, I was offered the chair of a House committee,'' he said.

Suksan Chayathet, another witness, said he had told the individuals hired to contest the election to fax their ID cards, house registration papers and education certificates to a city hotel where he had been staying. A number of Election Commission officials, whose identities were not revealed, then entered their names on the Pattana Chart Thai party membership database retroactively to meet the legal requirement of 90-days membership, Mr Suksan said. The change to the party's database on a computer disk supplied by an election official was done at the hotel in early March, he said.

''We checked on the internet the next morning and found 86 of them were legal members of the party.''

Both men said they asked the Democrats to help as they feared legal consequences from their unlawful acts and for their safety now they had made the disclosure involving powerful TRT figures.

Monthiraporn Phimchan, said she had prepared documents and filled in applications for those involved in the fraud.

Mr Suthep yesterday forwarded to Election Commission chairman Wassana Permlap material evidence of the alleged scam. He demanded Pol Gen Wassana urgently investigate to find out who in his agency may have been involved in the legal breach.

Pol Gen Wassana said in a separate interview that he had ordered his staff to gather evidence and facts concerning Mr Suthep's allegations and the matter would be presented for consideration at a meeting today. He would not comment on allegations that some EC staff had been involved.

Pattana Chart Thai party leader Boonthaweesak Amornsin yesterday filed a complaint with Nakhon Ratchasima police, accusing Mr Suthep of defamation.

Mr Boonthaweesak denied having any acquaintance with Gen Thammarak, saying his party has self-financed candidacy applications and canvasses without the help of other politicians for funding or in the forgery of documents as alleged. He demanded Mr Suthep withdraw allegations or he would reveal how he had been approached to abort the election, he said. ''The offer was five million baht, then rose to 15 million baht, which I rejected.'

- BP

[Bryan in Isaan]

Errr... has anyone heard the opposition calling names and throwing insults at Taksin? Can you give an example please? It appears that your statement is not based on any facts.

Yes, the speaches of the Sondhi/Chamlong crowd are extraordinary insulting, and full of expletitives. You can hear that for yourself if you go and have a look at the demonstrations, or go to the ASTV website.

http://broadcast.manager.co.th/11news1

No,No,no! The Opposition here means the Parliamentary Opposition, ie the Democrats, Chart Thai and Mahachon; they have been very restrained, indeed ever since Apisit became leader he has insisted only himself and Ong-art, The Party Spokesman, speak for the party.

They know they cannot join PAD on stage having boycotted the election.

Only a few of the speakers on the PAD site are using profane language, most are just expressing their views passionately; don't forget in the course of 24 hours the number of speakers, contributors, musicians must be well over 50.

Plus - you caught me flat footed. I have gotten much of my info from my wife who watches the television coverage and translates it to me, so I have not been able to document it. I might go through back issues of thenation and gather some material.

To clarify my original statement, I do mean the PAD, not the politicians. I don't have a case-by- case of each insult, asinine statement or name-calling incident, but what I do see is things like the big posters of Thaksin eating the flag, comparisons to Hitler and the like. I see the foreigners picking it up here on the forum too. Everyone has the right to express their views passionately, but much of this is not constructive and will not lead to reconcilliation.

Edited March 20, 2006 by Bryan in Isaan