Udon Immigration - A Convenient Excuse Or A Worrying New Trend?

[SweatySock]

Just returned from Udon Thani Immigration and wondered was I given a convenient excuse or is there a new trend towards foreign nationals residing in Thailand?

Breif bit of history, been here almost 11 years, on non-O extensions based on marriage for the whole time. I did work in Bangkok, with a work permit, from 2003 - 04 since then been in semi-retirement. Married to a Thai lady and we have 2 children.

Previously I applied for the extension based on income however since the demise of the GBP, I changed to based on bank balance last year.

Last year was "relatively" smooth and we even ended up with a visit from the Immigration officers at our home a few weeks later where photographs were taken and a few beers were consumed and everyone left very happy.

My extension is due to expire on March 20th so we duly set off yesterday bright and early with the usual rain-forest of paperwork, photographs and a 'witness" in this case the "poo ya ban" from our village.

On arrival, the office looked quite normal, fairly busy but with plenty of staff and not packed with applicants. Having waited until our number was called, my wife and I approached the desk in a friendly manner and both sat down and proceeded to provide the relevant paperwork when requested. On either side of me were foreigners of various countries requesting extensions based on marriage and retirement. As we progressed with the young lady on the other side of the desk and she created her 2 identical piles of paperwork I noticed that both gents on either side had their requests for extension declined. One because his bank letter was deemed incorrect and the other because his photographs were deemed unacceptable

The young lady then declared she was satisfied with the contents of my application and approached the officer in charge for permission to proceed. She returned a few minutes later to say the officer had decided that my photographs were unacceptable. I reached into my bag and produced a total of 24 additional photographs for her to decide which ones were acceptable. She selected another 5 and once again approached the officer. This time she returned and said we did not have our "kor sor song" document.

OK, never heard of it before, so we returned home and obtained the document and heading back to Udon this morning.

Once again, took a number and waited until we were called and presented all the documents from yesterday to a different young lady. She duly placed them once again into the 2 piles and approached the officer for permission to proceed. This time, my bank document was declared unacceptable and a replacement was produced.

Back once again and now my wife and I were being ignored by the office staff. No-one seemed to want to deal with my application until eventually a gentleman had a look at our request. He then approached the officer, had a few words and returned, placed our docs on the desk and promptly disappeared.

After around 40 minutes had expired, the original girl from yesterday once again had a check through and once again everything appeared in order. She approached the officer (who resides in a separate office preventing direct dialogue)and returned with the astounding news that as my visa is due to expire on March 20th, I was to cross the border into Laos on Monday, obtain a 3 month non-Imm O and present myself back to the Udon office on Monday 25th March.

When I enquired as to why, she took us to an unused desk in the office and said very quietly that the Udon Thani Immigration office has a new boss who has directed, or been directed, to reduce the number of foreigners residing in the region.

Now I know that when put into an uncomfortable situation, Thais in general do not like to issue the phrase "I don't know". So was this a convenient excuse or has anyone else been through the loop at Udon Immigration?

[Lite Beer]

Most of the issues above I can understand but can see no reason to have to get a Non Imm O Visa.

[mancub]

Do not be surprised if this is the new boss establishing some basis for future "gratuity"payments .

[bangkokburning]

If you don't live and work on a farm, leave. Im sure wife can find work in Bangkok.

Never understood why you guys put up with this.

Maybe you should just make notes of all bs, keep going back - then when thete is no more time, demand 60days based on marriage. Then just keep going back. Wear them out.

Make a checklist of what you have and what is acceptable. Better yet get a bunch of guys together to do the same.

If they decline your extension, all of you go down to bkk en masse to apply for extension and they eill br like oh, you cant do that HERE. Then you show them all the evidence of them hassling you and not goving your visa. Right down reason for each rejection. I mean photos <deleted>? And that you had a packet and none were acceptable? They need to to spin better bs. Try and get noyrs on each rejection - perfect.

My hunch is a call will be made. Bureaucrats are lazy and bkk sure wont be happy about sorting out the mess. It might even look like they are fishing for money upcountry.

Seems to me either way you have three options: take what they dish out, fight it passive aggressively or fight it in bkk (just act old dumb and stupid, really polite and soft spoken).

My advice would be to move - just an endless variation on the huge hassles guys have living all over Issan.

Edited March 15, 2013 by bangkokburning

[SweatySock]

Thanks for the replies.

I have used Imm offices in BKK, Nong Khai, Udon and Chiang Khan but I have never come across the run-around I am being given here.

The thought of flying down to BKK did cross my mind this morning, as did returning to the UK and obtaining a new Non-Imm O.

However, I am going to stick this one out and see where it leads, I have the name of the officer in charge and it will be interesting to see if the attitude remains when he is not on duty.

Been here too long to get too hot under the collar and looking on the bright side I will have the opportunity to partake of some Beer Dark Lao. If you haven't tried it, it is superb.

Was never asked for any "contribution" of any kind and neither was the wife. When it all started to get a bit funny, the thought did cross my mind.

[bangkokburning]

I think the whole bringing you in the sideroom deal was for you to come up with some cash honestly. Suprised the wife did not glom on to that.

If it were me...reading all these Issan stories, if they will process you in bkk, Id be there in a flash.

Always gonna be something up there and if not this year, next and as soon as you pay, you pay forever. Then that guy gets replaced and it starts all over. Rinse and repeat.

I cant be bothered with it even in bkk. I get my visa outside and make visa runs often coupled with intl.trips (both of us) or...hop to Cambodia. I see all this as less offensive and less dramatic than these guys on marriage and even retirement extensions. Its a game I have avoided playing for 20yrs now.

[Rancid]

Immigration are great and wanting useless and irrelevant extra documentation, I've always suspected it was about sniffing for a donation. However my missus refuses to ever pay any of the bureaucrats 25 satang and she does always eventually get whatever pushed through. Once only I paid a connected lawyer and did he rake them over the coals at the local Amphur after they knocked back his assistant and he had to come personally, lot of waiing going down, everything approved immediately. It was well worth his fee to see them grovelling.

[StevenHeidbriderSr]

I am thinking this is just a misunderstanding between the parties. My officer at Immigration imformed me that 65k monthly income or a combo of less than 65k a month plus bank balance to total 800k is needed.

A RULE CHANGE has taken affect that seems no one is aware of. AND upon reflection probably has more to do with inflation than anything else.

[Thaddeus]

A RULE CHANGE has taken affect that seems no one is aware of. AND upon reflection probably has more to do with inflation than anything else.

To do that would also mean a removal of the Grandfather rule, that would be very worrying for some now, and more in the future.

[Jingthing]

I am thinking this is just a misunderstanding between the parties. My officer at Immigration imformed me that 65k monthly income or a combo of less than 65k a month plus bank balance to total 800k is needed.

A RULE CHANGE has taken affect that seems no one is aware of. AND upon reflection probably has more to do with inflation than anything else.

There is no rule change. This is just a RUMOR and this isn't the place to spread rumors that are worrying to people unless you have a CREDIBLE source. The way you just dropped this bomb without any details of this "change" without any info on your source, I seriously doubt that you have a credible source. Feel free to prove me wrong. Otherwise, people JUST IGNORE rumors please. Thank you.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Jingthing

[StevenHeidbriderSr]

I am not here to spread rumors. All i know is what my immigration officer said to me and my intent was a marriage visa but as far as i know he may well have been steering me toward a retirement visa with out me knowing.

[StevenHeidbriderSr]

I have done a little more research and i think my immigration officer was steering toward a Retirement visa instead of a marriage visa.

Retirement Visas

Retirement visas for Thailand are available to foreigners 50 years of age or
older. These visas are valid for only one year and employment of any kind is
strictly prohibited. According to Thai immigration, applicants must meet the
following qualifications:

• Applicant must be able to provide proof of a pension or other regular income
  from a source outside of Thailand;
• Applicant’s pension or other regular income must be no less than the
  equivalent of 65,000 Baht per month;
• Alternatively, the applicant may meet the financial requirement by
  maintaining a Thai bank account with a minimum amount of 800,000 Baht.
  (Applicants will need to show that they have 800,000 Baht in savings each year
  when they renew their visa.)
• Any applicant married to a Thai citizen may be able to receive a visa on
  that basis rather than retirement.

IN a Previous post i stated what that the immigration officer told me when in fact he told my wife in Thai and she translated to me.

Edited March 15, 2013 by StevenHeidbriderSr

[Jingthing]

I am not here to spread rumors. All i know is what my immigration officer said to me and my intent was a marriage visa but as far as i know he may well have been steering me toward a retirement visa with out me knowing.

I am sorry for any confusion. They way you worded your post it SOUNDED like you were alluding to an already crushed rumor that financial requirements for retirement extensions were going to be raised soon. They may indeed be raised tomorrow or twenty years from now, but until someone can point to a credible source such as an official announcement, its just rumors.

For many years now, in many offices, it is well known and established that retirement extensions are easier to process than marriage extensions and it isn't uncommon for immigration officers to try to persuade over 50 married people to use retirement extensions. Again, no rule change at all for marriage or retirement extensions (for now). Yes financial requirements for retirement are higher than for marriage ... NOW. No change.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Jingthing

[fdimike]

If this is the female IO sitting next to the concrete column (wears glasses) then I can tell you she's looking for extra money. We encountered a similar problem when asking for a form certifying our address in order to renew my D/L (3rd). She told the intern handling the app that the fee was 500THB. When reminded that there was no charge for this she got her back hair up. She told us we would have to speak with the chief. My wife told her great because she was about to ask for the meeting anyway. Within a few minutes he told us there was no charge for this buthe could "help" us avoid the home visit by a contribution. We declined telling him repeatedly that we only live a short distance from his office and to come on down. My wife repeatedly asked him why he just didn't do his job by the rules. After 30 plus years in the US my wife does not take kindly to graft & corruption.

The next day an entourage of 3 officers arrived at our home and then began to turn apologetic over the whole issue telling us they didn't know we lived there and then proceded to take series of pics of our rather large house, gardens, swimming pool etc. Suddenly we were elevated to the status of VIP. I found it to be nothing more than a crock of sh*t and was not impresed with all the ass kissing.

Only by chance afterwards did I realize that I could have avoided all the nonsense by getting the certification from the embassy for 100THB.

We're good visa wise until next March but if I get another hassle when renewing my retirement visa I'll take ride to the District Hqs in Korat. If asked why I'll be happy to explain.

[stevelt]

Immigration and the police is the only power they have over a farang so they abuse it. I have had problems with udon imm lots of times because mostly i have used 90 day imm o vis then get 60 day ext. When i went for my 1st 60 days extension she asked wheres my wife. I told her my wife was working. She said no wife no visa. I explained this was just an extension of an existing visa i got in laos and as my wife was not present when i got the visa why does she need to be present when i want an extension . She refused. I had all the docs including my yellow book. As i was leaving the office with no visa she said give her 500 baht and i would get the visa. I had no choice my visa ran out the next day so i paid and got my visa.

Next time i took my wife. This time she told me i was only ever allowed 1 60 days extension but if i paid 500 baht she would do for me . I refused so she would not give me the visa. I drove to nong khai office and asked for a visa they said i had to go to udon . I explained what the girl had said and the supervisor in nong kha was angry with the woman and said rubbish as many 60 day ext you like and phoned her and told me to go back for a visa.

I went back and she was upset and even then told me she would only give me 30 days unless i paid 500baht. I just said no i will go back to nong khai again. My wife was so angry by this time . She told her she could no believe people from her country could treat foreigners this way. Finally after a whole day and over 200kms on a motorbike i got my visa. For the people who say just do what they say ,it is their country. rubbish! I lived here for 5 yrs ,built a house have a wife and adopted son, spent about 5 million bahts here . Never been in trouble or caused a problem . Because of the exchange rate i do not have enough monthly income for a 12 month retirement visa as my pension does not start for 2 years.

For those of you who say if you do not like it leave . I am when my pension starts i am off. Prob to the philippines where easy for visa, speak english ,can own my own property.

Edited March 16, 2013 by lopburi3
edit language

[SweatySock]

If this is the female IO sitting next to the concrete column (wears glasses) then I can tell you she's looking for extra money. We encountered a similar problem when asking for a form certifying our address in order to renew my D/L (3rd). She told the intern handling the app that the fee was 500THB. When reminded that there was no charge for this she got her back hair up. She told us we would have to speak with the chief. My wife told her great because she was about to ask for the meeting anyway. Within a few minutes he told us there was no charge for this buthe could "help" us avoid the home visit by a contribution. We declined telling him repeatedly that we only live a short distance from his office and to come on down. My wife repeatedly asked him why he just didn't do his job by the rules. After 30 plus years in the US my wife does not take kindly to graft & corruption.

The next day an entourage of 3 officers arrived at our home and then began to turn apologetic over the whole issue telling us they didn't know we lived there and then proceded to take series of pics of our rather large house, gardens, swimming pool etc. Suddenly we were elevated to the status of VIP. I found it to be nothing more than a crock of sh*t and was not impresed with all the ass kissing.

Only by chance afterwards did I realize that I could have avoided all the nonsense by getting the certification from the embassy for 100THB.

We're good visa wise until next March but if I get another hassle when renewing my retirement visa I'll take ride to the District Hqs in Korat. If asked why I'll be happy to explain.

No, not that lady, this was the two young girls and the new guy with the glasses.

[bangkokburning]

The only way to fight the nonsense, bribery and utter BS is as follows:

Never pay a bribe

Jump thru every hoop they require OR tell them you wont be back this year (off to bkk or an embassy)

Sooner or later it will dawn on them that they are not getting any more money and just making extra work for themselves. What will really reinforce this is return each day, day after day tather than next week. Another idea - get a bunch of guys together and go in on Fridays and Mondays as well (when everyone LIKES to have an eady day. Another idea, ask polite but endlessy insne stupid questions with a snile. Wear them down.

It is only then that the problems will sort themselves out.

It only takes a few lazy guys to keep this game alive.

Give thsnks to the wives that refuse to pay. They loathe this money for nothing scheme pethaps even more than us. They have had alife of it.

Edited March 16, 2013 by bangkokburning

[lopburi3]

Several points need clarification.

1. If obtaining an extension on basis for relationship the other party is expected to be present - it is not a visa but an extension of stay and different rules. This is normal procedure at every immigration office AFAIK

2. The 60 day extension was specifically one time only in the previous immigration order - only in 777/2551 was that wording drooped so there is variance of policy from office to office. Not sure when this happened to you but it might help explain.

[bendejo]

I'll talk to my boss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLp_20cIq_s

[attrayant]

Amazing that they pull these shenanigans on a long-time resident (who would presumably know the system very well). I can see them trying a stunt like this on newbies like me, who have been here less than a couple of years. But when they try to hoodwink an experienced resident foreigner, they're asking for all the heartburn they get.

[srn89]

I returned from a trip to the U. K. in December 2011, 1 day before my Marriage Visa expired,

As we had done in previous years my wife in my absence had obtained a letter from the British Consul showing my U.K. State Pension,( Which i felt was an extortionate fee, as it had been in previous years ) 2 Letters letter from the Bank showing that funds had been in the account for the previous year ( not just 90 days) Plus the Original Bank Book( the balance was below the 400.000 Baht.) The required 2 Recent Photographs of us together, the 2 Maps of where we live ( we have had the same address here for 25 years !!)

Previously a combination of Pension and Money's in an account here could be combined to make up the 400.000 Baht required for a Married to a Thai, Visa.I had done it this way for many years.

Anyway arrived at Immigration Office on my last day with a Valid Visa, after the usual extremely long wait went in to see the relevant Lady Officer, then the Bomb dropped, in her normal LOUD voice she stated that i did not have enough money in the Account for a Visa, i think everyone in the room were advised of that at the same time as i was !! ( talk about being embarrassed ) No privacy respected at all !!!!!

I was surprised to say the least as we had compiled all the paperwork as in previous years, but NO, NOW Any in comings from State Pension or any other funds you may have are irrelevant, its only down to having the 400.000 Baht in the Bank for 90 Days prior to application, so the extortionate priced letter from the British Consul was binned ( Why did the British Consul not advise me that a letter was now irrelevant, that would have paid for my Visa nearly )

She went through compiling the normal 2 piles of papers and then issued me with a 30 Day Visa which i had to renew the following Month,Total cost was 3 times the Fee as i eventually had 2 x 30 days plus the Married Visa fee, the reason for the Second 30 Day Visa was the time required ( 90 Days ) that the 400.000 Baht had to be in my Bank Account. I transferred additional money into Thailand the same day so after the required 90 Days, 2 New letters from the Bank, Original Bank Book plus the usual paperwork my new Visa was granted.

Renewed my Married Visa last month and ''armed'' with the same accepted Documentation as last year things went very smoothly.

I genuinely believe that NEW Regulations regarding Visa's do not get channeled through to all the Immigration Offices at the same time as and when they are changed , or the Offices do not read/implement then at the same time whether it is due to workload or the Staff not being informed of the changes, hence so many variations of peoples experiences in Visa applications.

[Lite Beer]

A combination of savings and pension/income has never been allowed.

It has always been 400,000 in a Thai bank. OR 40,000 monthly income.

Never a combination of both.

So the immigration Officer was correct.

[lopburi3]

It is retirement that allows a combination - not Thai wife and the current regulations have been in place since 2551.

[ALFREDO]

have used 90 day imm o vis then get 60 day ext. When i went for my 1st 60 days extension she asked wheres my wife. I told her my wife was working. She said no wife no visa. I explained this was just an extension of an existing visa i got in laos and as my wife was not present when i got the visa why does she need to be present when i want an extension . She refused. I had all the docs including my yellow book. As i was leaving the office with no visa she said give her 500 baht and i would get the visa. I had no choice my visa ran out the next day so i paid and got my visa.

Next time i took my wife. This time she told me i was only ever allowed 1 60 days extension but if i paid 500 baht she would do for me . I refused so she would not give me the visa.

Several points need clarification.

1. If obtaining an extension on basis for relationship the other party is expected to be present - it is not a visa but an extension of stay and different rules. This is normal procedure at every immigration office AFAIK

2. The 60 day extension was specifically one time only in the previous immigration order - only in 777/2551 was that wording drooped so there is variance of policy from office to office. Not sure when this happened to you but it might help explain.

60 day extension, one time only per Non Immigrant -O- visa? Per half year? Per year?

I had similar problems in Udon Thani with Extensions as a father of Thai children.

It seems the authorities try to limit the 60 days extensions they give for fathers to stay with their children.

Had last year, a -NO- in Udon for an extension after a 14 days Non Visa allowance in TH, (hop over the border to Vientiane)

Was told about that differently when I went to Vientiane - "yes you go out, you get 2 weeks, you come back, I give you 2 month for stay with child!"

But was than - "Oh sorry new Boss, new orders from BKK also!" After I came back after 2 weeks.

But a YES, could do in Khon Kaen Immigration, got the extension there later!

Just now,

got a 2 month extension in Udon Thani, after some hefty discussions after a 2 weeks Visa free stint

and a 60 days extension of a Non Immigrant -O- beforehand from Udon Thani Immi.

But they wrote me some lengthy sentence in the Passport? I cannot come to them again with the same story for? a period?

I do not understand that every Immigration office can do same "they like"!

Do still not understand the directives for Extensions of stay for taking care, visit a Thai child you have.

[lockman]

OH NO! Seems we get people from Udon Immigration transferred here to Mukdahan. I take my wife as well (doing a retirement visa) with everything, usually after some bs...visa gets done as she won't put up with that bs after living in US for 35+ years. She has "politely" asked to see the supervisor, chats a minute and suddenly all is well. Me i usually play dumb, even though I know what is being said and going on.

[ubonjoe]

Thai Police Order 777/2551

2.24 In the case of visiting a spouse or children who are of Thai nationality: Each permission shall be granted for no more than 60 days.

(1) There must be proof of relationship.

(2) In the case of spouse, the relationship must be de jure and de facto.

You cannot get back to back extensions but can simply make a border run for a 15 day entry and get another 60 days is what many offices are doing now.

(2) explains why wife must be with you.

[venturalaw]

Do not be surprised if this is the new boss establishing some basis for future "gratuity"payments .

Now that makes sense. Hope it doesn't happen in Chiang Mai.

[khunbillmex]

My favorite bureaucrat video:

[venturalaw]

Thanks for the replies.

I have used Imm offices in BKK, Nong Khai, Udon and Chiang Khan but I have never come across the run-around I am being given here.

The thought of flying down to BKK did cross my mind this morning, as did returning to the UK and obtaining a new Non-Imm O.

However, I am going to stick this one out and see where it leads, I have the name of the officer in charge and it will be interesting to see if the attitude remains when he is not on duty.

Been here too long to get too hot under the collar and looking on the bright side I will have the opportunity to partake of some Beer Dark Lao. If you haven't tried it, it is superb.

Was never asked for any "contribution" of any kind and neither was the wife. When it all started to get a bit funny, the thought did cross my mind.

BTW, thanks for the detailed information in your original post. Most informative.

What I always do every year is, prior to the date for extension, visit the immigration office and ask for an official list of required documents. Then I put the two piles of document copies in the order listed on the official list. Never had a problem in 5 years, but one never knows what's around the corner in the LOS. You certainly have more patience than me but you have been here longer.

[comserve]

Immigration are great and wanting useless and irrelevant extra documentation, I've always suspected it was about sniffing for a donation. However my missus refuses to ever pay any of the bureaucrats 25 satang and she does always eventually get whatever pushed through. Once only I paid a connected lawyer and did he rake them over the coals at the local Amphur after they knocked back his assistant and he had to come personally, lot of waiing going down, everything approved immediately. It was well worth his fee to see them grovelling.

I have been in Thailand now for about 5 years & up to now I always got a retirement visa renewal based on embassy verified figures of income outside Thailand.

This year I decided to apply for a marriage visa based on my Australian pension income of 50,000 baht/month and provided with my Australian bank statement (again stamped by the embassy).

I was told that because it was my first marrage visa application they had to give me a 1 month extension whilst I got a "surprise" visit to my home to prove we actually lived together (and I wasn't just trying to traffic my wife).

Although I had a google map of my house location, my wife gave them her hand-drawn map (Which they could not read).

They ended up ringing us up for directions (so much for the surprise element. In the middle of the interview I decided to go & pick up my wife's 4yo grand son (who lives with us) which proved to be a good move & impressed them. The two people that visited us were very friendly and just nice people. (The lady said she usually worked at Suvannapoom Airport Immigration and they made a trip from BKK specially to make these two home visits).

The Sirin immigration office is a 300km round trip from our house (it's actually nearer to the Cambodian border) which takes 3 hours each way because of the heavy traffic.

We used to go to Korat immigration which was further away but a quicker drive) and where we could do other shopping.

We have been told that the home visit was a one-off simply because it was my first "Marriage Visa" application.

When we went back after the month extension the renewal was routine (even although there was now a new boss person (who could hardly keep himself awake in his chair).

So much for Thai Immigration, having to prove we were legit married even though my wife had the marriage certificate showing our five years of marriage.