Birth Registration/ Uk Passport For Daughter

[parryhandy]

I would appreciate some advice on registering my Thai born daughters birth in the uk and obtaining her a UK passport.

She was born sept 2002 and me and her mother were married in Thailand march 2003.

I am now currently living and working 2 jobs back in the uk, so only get back over there twice a year at the moment to see them.

Questions

1. Can i do anything from the uk or does me and my wife have to sign paternity/maternity declarations together at the uk embassy in Bangkok ? Can we still do this seeing as i ve left it so long?

2.I will only have 2 weeks when i come again in probably Sept (holidays permitting ) is this enough time to get it all sorted ? i.e. interview etc..

3.Is my daughter automatically entitled to uk citizenship seeing as me and her mother were married 6 months after she was born.

CIA

Edited March 18, 2006 by parryhandy

[Beachcomber]

Don’t know if this applies to you as the timeline is different.

Ms Beach and I got married some months after the birth of Baby Beach, less than one year.

We had no problem getting a British passport for baby on the strength of my UK citizenship.

We both had to sign a declaration that the child was ours and a short interview at the embassy, really no problem.

We also then got a Thai passport for Baby, we were on a roll, so she now has two passports and dual nationality.

Great!

[GU22]

I think that as the child was born in Thailand and is still resident there that you have to register the birth at the British embassy in Bangkok or the British consul in Chiang Mai. Once the child's birth has been registered then you will be able to get her a British passport.

See Consular Birth Registration

[Beachcomber]

Forgot to mention as it seemed obvious but yes we did this at the Bangkok Embassy.

[the scouser]

Alternatively, whilst you are in the UK you can apply to the Home Office to register your child as British (this is not the same as registering the birth). However, a decision can take in excess of a year, so you're probably better off attending the British embassy with your wife when next in Thailand.

Scouse.

[vinny]

Forgot to mention as it seemed obvious but yes we did this at the Bangkok Embassy.

If your daughter already has her British consular birth certificate, then the British Embassy has already accepted that she is a UK citizen. Her claim to UK citizenship is stated on her consular birth certificate. There is no need to apply to the Home Office to register her as British because she already is. A record of her birth will afterwards be held at the General Register Office in the UK. In the future, copies can be obtained from the General Register Office.

She can apply for a British passport straight away.

[the scouser]

Just to avoid any confusion my post may have caused: it was in response to Parryhandy, rather than Beachcomber.

Cheers,

Scouse.

[vinny]

Sorry Scouse, I misread and thought that Beachcomber's answer was parryhandy's.

parryhandy,

See Consular Birth Registration, kindly provided by GU22:

Notes on British nationality

You will be able to transmit your British nationality to your child born overseas if you acquired your British nationality "otherwise than by descent". If you were born in the UK, naturalised in the UK or (in some, but not all cases) registered in the UK, you acquired your British nationality otherwise than by descent. If you are not sure, please ask us for further advice.

If you were born overseas to a British parent, you acquired your British nationality "by descent" (unless your father was in Crown Service at the time of your birth). Your child born overseas will not automatically have a claim to British nationality but it may be possible to register him or her as a British Citizen at the Home Office or ask us for form MN1. If your intentions are to settle in the UK you will be advised to apply in the UK.

British fathers cannot transmit their nationality to illegitimate children automatically (see below). If the parents marry after the child's birth, it is possible that the child's birth will be "legitimated" by its parents' marriage. In order for us to establish whether or not legitimation has taken place, we require both parents to sign paternity declarations in person at the Embassy (the fee for which is Baht 4,900) and the father to complete a "domicile questionnaire". Please ask for the declarations of paternity forms and the domicile questionnaire.

An appointment is necessary for the domicile questionnaire. All declarations and documents should be submitted at least 24 hours prior to the appointment date.

The purpose of this is to establish whether the father has retained a domicile in the UK (this basically means close connections) and can therefore benefit from the provisions of British nationality law. The completed domicile and documentation will be sent to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in London. Those applying should expect to receive a decision in 8 weeks.

As in Beachcomber's case, your daughter may already be British. In the simplest situation, she is British if the following sections of the BRITISH NATIONALITY ACT 1981 CHAPTER 61 are satisfied:

s 2(1)( a )

s 47

s 50(9)( b )

s 2 Acquisition by descent.

(1) A person born outside the United Kingdom and the qualifying territories after commencement shall be a British citizen if at the time of the birth his father or mother--

( a ) is a British citizen otherwise than by descent; or

s 47 Legitimated children.

(1) A person born out of wedlock and legitimated by the subsequent marriage of his parents shall, as from the date of the marriage, be treated for the purposes of this Act as if he had been born legitimate.

(2) A person shall be deemed for the purposes of this section to have been legitimated by the subsequent marriage of his parents if by the law of the place in which his father was domiciled at the time of the marriage the marriage operated immediately or subsequently to legitimate him, and not otherwise.

s 50(9)( b ) subject to section 47, the relationship of father and child shall be taken to exist only between a man and any legitimate child born to him;

and the expressions "mother", "father", "parent", "child" and "descended" shall be construed accordingly.

There are also other instances of Acquisition by descent.

Satisfying s47(2) boils down to showing that at the time of your marriage, you were domiciled in a country where the marriage legitimated your children. Under the Legitimacy Act 1976, the UK is such a country.

See PR & father who marries after child is born

Section 1 of the Legitimacy Act 1976 provides as follows:

Subject to the following provisions of this Act, where the parents of an illegitimate person marry one another, the marriage shall, if the father of the illegitimate person is at the date of marriage domiciled in England and Wales, render that person, if living, legitimate from the date of the marriage.

Extract from Hershman McFarlane Section A.5

So, in order to satisfy s 47, it is sufficient to show that you were domiciled in the UK (or in any country that legitimated your children) at the time of your marriage.

See domicile on how to do this. If your domicile of origin is the UK, it should be very simple to show that it still is the UK. The onus of proof is always on the party asserting that a change in domicile has taken place.

See also the Home Office's policy instructions on:

Legitimacy and Domicile

However, if your daughter is not already British, see

Registration of minors of British citizens

Guide MN1 - Registration of a child as a British citizen

Registration application form (Form MN1)

Aside: The Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 should have made marriage unnecessary, with respect to children's British nationality status. However, the Legitimacy provisions of the Act are not into force because of the difficulty in the regulations concerning proof of paternity taking so long to produce, as explained in the UK Parliament.

Edited March 19, 2006 by vinny

[parryhandy]

thanks for all the replies and links.

Vinny i cannot get my head round all that law speak.

Situation

daughter born sept 2002

married mother march 2003

back to uk may 2004 to work.

Currently staying with relatives as do not own house etc..

Do not understand that link explaining domicile at all, its in law gibberish.

What is the domicile forms purpose i.e. what are they looking for?Also what do you reckon are the chances in my situation ? I cannot understand it all, as far as im concerned MY DAUGHTER IS HALF ENGLISH.

[the scouser]

Parryhandy,

Your daughter may well be half-English, but she won't qualify, under any circumstance, for an English passport, as there is no such entity. She might, however, qualify for a passport which describes her as being a British citizen.

In order to achieve this, you have to demonstrate that the country in which you married accepts that the act of marriage makes legitimate the birth of a child born out of wedlock.

Scouse.

[parryhandy]

In order to achieve this, you have to demonstrate that the country in which you married accepts that the act of marriage makes legitimate the birth of a child born out of wedlock.

how do i do this ? I have all the forms birth, marriage certificates etc.. Surely the uk embassy knows what Thailand the country accepts (???) blah blah whatever that absolute irrelevance means.Lets just say me and the wife werent married are you telling me my daughters not entitled to come amd live me, if we so wish or, if Thailand doesnt accept its legitimate.Please.......

Edited March 19, 2006 by parryhandy

[GU22]

With respect, parryhandy, you have been given the link to the section of the embassy website which gives details of what you need to do. The most pertinant point from the part Vinny quoted being

British fathers cannot transmit their nationality to illegitimate children automatically (see below). If the parents marry after the child's birth, it is possible that the child's birth will be "legitimated" by its parents' marriage. In order for us to establish whether or not legitimation has taken place, we require both parents to sign paternity declarations in person at the Embassy (the fee for which is Baht 4,900) and the father to complete a "domicile questionnaire". Please ask for the declarations of paternity forms and the domicile questionnaire.

An appointment is necessary for the domicile questionnaire. All declarations and documents should be submitted at least 24 hours prior to the appointment date.

The purpose of this is to establish whether the father has retained a domicile in the UK (this basically means close connections) and can therefore benefit from the provisions of British nationality law. The completed domicile and documentation will be sent to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in London. Those applying should expect to receive a decision in 8 weeks.

Or, as Scouse said, you can apply to the Home Office in the UK, but doing it that way will take a lot longer.

[parryhandy]

thanks Gu22, but i have read all this already.

In plain English , is the domocile to make sure im not just getting my daughter a passport for the sake of it .

The purpose of this is to establish whether the father has retained a domicile in the UK (this basically means close connections) and can therefore benefit from the provisions of British nationality law.

What does this mean ?

[geordie]

Parryhandy,

i know that all the law words are probably doing your head in, as i was confused by it all when i went through the process of getting my daughter her UK birth certificate and passport.

I would say to you that it is probably best if you could get over to Thailand and do it there at the Embassy.

The domicile questionair form is asking you for what reasons you would go back to the UK, i left afew blank as it did not understand what they were asking, when i got to the interveiw the lady helped me with the questions, they are asking for what reasons you would go back to the UK ie for health reasons, for family deaths and so on.

My daughter was born before i was married and when i handed in the paper work the girl at the desk (Thai) said that there might be a problem because i was married after my daughter was born. When i got to the interveiw i asked the lady why that was a problem and she told me that it was not a problem. If you are going to try and do this in the UK it might be a diffent story.

Well i wish you all the best and hope that it works out for you.

PS i never did this to get my daughter to the UK i done it so that it opens another door for her in the future.

Geordie

[parryhandy]

thanks geordie , thats just what i wanted to hear.

PS i never did this to get my daughter to the UK i done it so that it opens another door for her in the future

Exactly- options.Just think it would be ridiculous and expensive if in the future i wanted her and her mother to come to the uk and my daughter had to get a visa every time.

Just one more thing.

I will only have 2 weeks when i come again in probably Sept (holidays permitting ) is this enough time to get it all sorted ? i.e. interview etc..

[geordie]

If you had all the paper work ready, then the day you arrived in Bangkok go straight to the Embassy and explain that you only have 2 weeks in which to do this, they might set the interveiw early. You could always e-mail the Embassy and explain the situation about you having to get back to work.

I was not being funny when i said about the reason why i did it for my daughter, of course i did it so she can go and visit family with me and my wife, and not needing to have a visa. It still leaves a door open for her in the future.

What i was trying to say is that is what the Embassy are asking in the Domicile form. They want to know if you want to take her to live in the UK.

Edited March 19, 2006 by geordie

[vinny]

thanks Gu22, but i have read all this already.

In plain English , is the domocile to make sure im not just getting my daughter a passport for the sake of it .

The purpose of this is to establish whether the father has retained a domicile in the UK (this basically means close connections) and can therefore benefit from the provisions of British nationality law.

What does this mean ?

They are probably talking about s47. You will benefit if s47 is applicable. In particular, s47(1).

s 47 Legitimated children.

(1) A person born out of wedlock and legitimated by the subsequent marriage of his parents shall, as from the date of the marriage, be treated for the purposes of this Act as if he had been born legitimate.

(2) A person shall be deemed for the purposes of this section to have been legitimated by the subsequent marriage of his parents if by the law of the place in which his father was domiciled at the time of the marriage the marriage operated immediately or subsequently to legitimate him, and not otherwise.

However, s47(1) relies on s47(2) being applicable.

In s47(2), I think that your domicile at the time of marriage is relevant but the marriage's location is irrelevant.

Hence, if you were domiciled in any country that legitimated your children at the time of your marriage, or subsequently legitimated your children, then s47(2) will be applicable. In particular, if you were domiciled in the UK at the time of the marriage, then s47(2) will be applicable.

Put simply, your domicile remains your of domicile of origin until you choose to change it (domicile of choice). The onus of proof is always on the party asserting that a change in domicile has taken place.

[vinny]

Once s47 is satisfied, you will satisfy the definition of father in s50(9)( b ).

s 50(9)( b ) subject to section 47, the relationship of father and child shall be taken to exist only between a man and any legitimate child born to him;

and the expressions "mother", "father", "parent", "child" and "descended" shall be construed accordingly.

It would follow, for example, that if you are a British citizen otherwise than by descent, then your daughter is British. In this case, she would benefit under the provisions of s2(1)( a ) of the British Nationality Act 1981.

s 2 Acquisition by descent.

(1) A person born outside the United Kingdom and the qualifying territories after commencement shall be a British citizen if at the time of the birth his father or mother--

( a ) is a British citizen otherwise than by descent; or

Edited March 20, 2006 by vinny

[Beachcomber]

I would go with getting the birth registered at the UK embassy in Bangkok. As I said previously we had no problem even though were married after the birth of baby.

You do not NEED to register the birth at UK Embassy the baby will already have a Thai birth certificate so have a nationality. But for the same reasons as already mentioned give baby the benefit of UK nationality as well.

When you register the birth at UK Embassy they suggest / recommend you apply for a passport at the same time. Why not, it’s what we did.

I can’t recall all the details now but I seem to remember they wanted originals of marriage cert, wife’s birth certificate your passport and your FULL birth certificate.

Because the baby was born ‘illegitimate’ we had to sign a paternity declaration and go for a short interview.

There was a time delay from handing in the paperwork to the interview, about a month as I recall but I’m sure they will understand if you explain your situation. You will be coming back to see your family on a regular basis so make apointment for next time.

Embassy Web Page - http://tinyurl.com/odzan

Attached Birth registration form. (pdf Doc)

Good Luck.

BirthForm_1_.pdf

[parryhandy]

Does anyboby know if there is a Thai version of the web page that explains the document requirements for Uk child registration and passport application, including paternity declaration ?

I will be meeting the family in Bangkok and want to make sure the wife does not forget to bring all the documents needed ?

cheers steve

[vinny]

Try searching the Thai version of the British Embassy's website.

[parryhandy]

ah so there is a Thai version !

Is there a button i can click on the English version that instantly changes it to the Thai version no matter what page im on ?

Or better still can you put the Thai link up for this pageConsular birth registration

Then i can email it to a friend who can print it off and forward it to my wife.

cheers

[parryhandy]

Can anybody put the Thai link up for this page please ? Birth registration and passport apllication requirements

Edited August 3, 2006 by parryhandy

[the scouser]

Steve,

Unless Vinny, who has the abilty to find links to even the most obscure nuggets, proves me wrong, I don't think the page is published in Thai.

Scouse.

[parryhandy]

oh well , just have to hope the wife understands what i tell her is required.

She has the annoying Thai habit of answering "yes" to the question "do you understand ? " , when she obviously has no clue about what im talking about.

thanks anyway..

Edited August 3, 2006 by parryhandy

[GU22]

Many pages, including visas, are in Thai, but it appears that the consular section isn't.

I guess the thinking being that consular services are for British citizens, who can probably read English.

With respect, I doubt if telling them that you only have 2 weeks to sort this pout will have much effect, as you could have done it any time since your marriage three years ago.

Best of luck, anyway. It may take time, but you will get there eventually.

[parryhandy]

Just to let you know....

i e-mailed the consular section of the embassy and they very helpfully have given me an apointment for the afternoon Wednesday the 6th of September.

So all being well i can get everything submitted on the Monday in good time .

Thanks for all the replies and help

P.S. What are they refering to in the forms when they ask for a registration certificate ?

[vinny]

The Registration Certificate refered to in the Registration of Birth Application Form is the certificate a person obtains if he/she had applied and acquried British Citizenship by registration under the various sections (e.g. s3, s4, s5, s10) of the BRITISH NATIONALITY ACT 1981 CHAPTER 61. It's not applicable if British Citizenship had been acquired by other means (e.g. s1, s2, s6).

Edited August 9, 2006 by vinny

[parryhandy]

Just a quick thank you to everybody who gave their advice on this topic , especially "the scouser".

Everthing went very smoothly and my daughters UK passport and birth certificate arrived 6 weeks after our interview in Bangkok.

many thanks