Thailand Needs To Act As Bangkok Sinks Faster

[impulse]

^{There are countless examples of areas subsiding when oil or gas field are produces over a long period of time.}

^{Just do the opposite for Bangkok. Find a suitable formation 1-3,000 m below Bangkok, drill a couple of hundred wells and inject water over the next 30 years.}

Would injecting water really stop the sinking? I don't think it works that way.... maybe they could throw their trash down there instead (make it a landfill with two purposes). If water works the way you suggest though, there'd be no need to "inject" water I'd think they could just divert water to flow under there. But controlling the flow would be crucial and I think would only increase the general risks to the area.

In Long Beach, California, subsidence is caused by oil wells producing oil from 1000's of feet below the city. Oversimplified, when you withdraw fluids from between the sand grains that make up sandstone, the sand shrinks and everything above the sand subsides. It got so bad that parts of the city had sunk by quite a few feet.

Today, the oil companies producing from the area are required to re-inject 110% of what they take out of the ground to prevent further subsidence. (At least when I worked there in the mid 90's)

It works, but there are a lot of risks if you don't put the water into the right places. And in a related field, there is some speculation that the water backed up by the Three Gorges Dam in China are contributing to an increase in earthquakes (and fracking wells in the US Midwest- which involves injecting water). The extra water forces the rock apart and acts a a lubricant allowing the rocks to slip on naturally occurring faults. It's also quite possible to inject poor quality water into reservoirs of current and future drinking water.

Edited May 3, 2013 by impulse

[impulse]

The first thing they need to do is pay some real geologists to come in and confirm the problem.

Does anybody have a good reason as to why they NEVER do this (ie bring in outside scientists).

Perhaps because there are quite a few perfectly qualified geologists from Thailand?

I work with several of them.

[hansnl]

Well, some arithmetic gives Bangkok 33 years to do something before the sea level has been reached.

If building are sinking 2 cm a year, I wonder if the piles used for the foundation of said buildings were long enough.

Anyway, all in all, the incompetence level of the government is rising sharply, so things might even out.

But what the h*ll, 45% of the Netehrlands is below sea level.

The Dutch seem to know something about water, so why the Dutch specialists were sent home?

And the Chinese asked to advise?

[Soutpeel]

The first thing they need to do is pay some real geologists to come in and confirm the problem.

Does anybody have a good reason as to why they NEVER do this (ie bring in outside scientists).

Perhaps because there are quite a few perfectly qualified geologists from Thailand?

I work with several of them.

Yeap some very good ones in Thailand working O&G, besides the soil conditions and strata in BKK are fully know know so why would a "real" geologist solve BKK woes....its would be hydrologist who solves the problem...not a geologist...and they already know what the problem is

[wellred]

Maybe it would be easier to abandon the city when the time comes and relocate the capital to elsewhere say khon Kaen or somewhere else in the north east.

[ExpatOilWorker]

^{There are countless examples of areas subsiding when oil or gas field are produces over a long period of time.}

^{Just do the opposite for Bangkok. Find a suitable formation 1-3,000 m below Bangkok, drill a couple of hundred wells and inject water over the next 30 years.}

Would injecting water really stop the sinking? I don't think it works that way.... maybe they could throw their trash down there instead (make it a landfill with two purposes). If water works the way you suggest though, there'd be no need to "inject" water I'd think they could just divert water to flow under there. But controlling the flow would be crucial and I think would only increase the general risks to the area.

In Long Beach, California, subsidence is caused by oil wells producing oil from 1000's of feet below the city. Oversimplified, when you withdraw fluids from between the sand grains that make up sandstone, the sand shrinks and everything above the sand subsides. It got so bad that parts of the city had sunk by quite a few feet.

Today, the oil companies producing from the area are required to re-inject 110% of what they take out of the ground to prevent further subsidence. (At least when I worked there in the mid 90's)

It works, but there are a lot of risks if you don't put the water into the right places. And in a related field, there is some speculation that the water backed up by the Three Gorges Dam in China are contributing to an increase in earthquakes (and fracking wells in the US Midwest- which involves injecting water). The extra water forces the rock apart and acts a a lubricant allowing the rocks to slip on naturally occurring faults. It's also quite possible to inject poor quality water into reservoirs of current and future drinking water.

Yes, the geology of Thailand is very well know and understood. Just find a nice high perm sandstone formation and slowly inject water into it. You can't just let the water flow in there, you need to inject it at 3,000-4,000 psi of pressure, depending of the formation depth.

[Scott]

If injecting water were a possible solution, would it actually cause the city to rise, or would it simply stop it from sinking?

[Jingthing]

Move the capital to Pattaya and be done with it ...

[ExpatOilWorker]

If injecting water were a possible solution, would it actually cause the city to rise, or would it simply stop it from sinking?

You can do both, depending of the injection rate and time. Preferable you will just keep the city at the same level relative to (the rising?) sea level.

Raising the city, would create a large "hill" in front of the greater Ayutthaya plateau, creating a new problem in the next raining season.

[maidu]

Maybe it would be easier to abandon the city when the time comes and relocate the capital to elsewhere say khon Kaen or somewhere else in the north east.

For years I have advocated relocating the city to higher ground, preferably several satellite cities, each with a focus: bureaucracy, Sangha, universities, manufacturing, bedroom communities, etc. Currently, every bit of biz or bureaucracy has to go to the bottomless pit called Bangkok, before any decision can get made. Just one of a bazillion examples: I recently filed a police report. The investigating cop said all security footage from ATMs in northern Thailand (and anywhere else in Thailand) were channeled thru Bkk. In other words, he has no chance in h*ll to obtain the incriminating footage. Another example: I wanted to build a skateboarding item (made of 2 pieces of plywood) in northern Thailand. I was told by an official that I had to formally petition an agency in Bangkok for permission.

[lee b]

Thinking of getting a condo? Make sure you get a boat first

[meand]

The first thing they need to do is pay some real geologists to come in and confirm the problem.

Does anybody have a good reason as to why they NEVER do this (ie bring in outside scientists).

Perhaps because there are quite a few perfectly qualified geologists from Thailand?

I work with several of them.

What are their names? Pm is fine I think his point is, we aren't building a condo or something here. We are trying to stop an entire city from sinking, and trying to decide what to focus on - maybe sinking is 2% of the problems, and rising water is 98%, or vice versa. Point, you need some of the best in the world to figure it out, and that isn't happening. I mean, could Thailand put a man on the moon? Could they even do something simpler like construct the BTS? Why is it that people know Thais can't handle certain stuff, and then they rationalize and act like they can handle something major like this? Whatever.... truth hurts I guess is the point..... hard to deal.

Edited May 3, 2013 by meand

[kimamey]

What will this do for condo prices?

Depends which floor you're on.

[impulse]

The first thing they need to do is pay some real geologists to come in and confirm the problem.

Does anybody have a good reason as to why they NEVER do this (ie bring in outside scientists).

Perhaps because there are quite a few perfectly qualified geologists from Thailand?

I work with several of them.

What are their names? Pm is fine I think his point is, we aren't building a condo or something here. We are trying to stop an entire city from sinking, and trying to decide what to focus on - maybe sinking is 2% of the problems, and rising water is 98%, or vice versa. Point, you need some of the best in the world to figure it out, and that isn't happening. I mean, could Thailand put a man on the moon? Could they even do something simpler like construct the BTS? Why is it that people know Thais can't handle certain stuff, and then they rationalize and act like they can handle something major like this? Whatever.... truth hurts I guess is the point..... hard to deal.

I liken living in Thailand (or any foreign country) to being a spectator at a sporting event. That's all I'll ever be is a spectator.

Yes, I bought a ticket to the game, (may have even bought season tickets or a skybox). Yes, I do buy the food and drink and maybe a T-Shirt, so I do contribute to the economy.

But no matter what I think the team is doing wrong, they aren't going to call me into the huddle, and regardless of my landscaping skills, I won't be the one cutting the grass, and no matter how good I could be as a doctor, the team medic will be handling all the injuries on the field.

I will always be a spectator, and all the Monday morning quarterbacking in the world won't change that.

And there will be another game next Sunday, no matter how incompetent I think the coaches. And the owners and the players will get richer and richer.

Edited May 3, 2013 by impulse

[ExpatOilWorker]

Maybe it would be easier to abandon the city when the time comes and relocate the capital to elsewhere say khon Kaen or somewhere else in the north east.

For years I have advocated relocating the city to higher ground, preferably several satellite cities, each with a focus: bureaucracy, Sangha, universities, manufacturing, bedroom communities, etc. Currently, every bit of biz or bureaucracy has to go to the bottomless pit called Bangkok, before any decision can get made. Just one of a bazillion examples: I recently filed a police report. The investigating cop said all security footage from ATMs in northern Thailand (and anywhere else in Thailand) were channeled thru Bkk. In other words, he has no chance in h*ll to obtain the incriminating footage. Another example: I wanted to build a skateboarding item (made of 2 pieces of plywood) in northern Thailand. I was told by an official that I had to formally petition an agency in Bangkok for permission.

This is just showing you how important Bangkok is for Thailand. The city stay, at least for as long as we are around.

[manfrommanteo]

Bangkok, the New Orleans of Thailand!

[jocko]

Is there a realistic way to correct this subsidence? And why is there a subsidence in the first place?

It's a swamp and always has been. There's no way to stop it - the ground is sinking AND ocean levels are rising. The average altitude of greater BKK is less than five metres above sea level.

An ocean rise of 50-100cm will wipe out most of samut prakarn and the southern part of BKK.

Nissan will become very attractive real estate.

Not sure about "Nissan" but I do foresee the new big Boeing Aircraft being fitted with floats instead of wheels, and water taxi companies sprouting up everywhere. Bangkok the venice of South East Asia - now there's a thought. Also the rise of a whole new set of water based 'hubs'.

Ye the jet ski operators cant wait.

[utalkin2me]

I think it will be nice when the place sinks. Chiang Mai or similar would be a much better and comfortable spot to house all the good jobs anyway.

[maidu]

There are 1,000 jokes and snide remarks which can be tossed at this topic, but there are serious aspects. Thai power brokers will be seriously attempting to keep Bkk from the succumbing to the course of nature. Trillions of baht will be thrown in that direction. About 1/3 of that money will be pocketed by a few of the well connected. But the best can be hoped for is a decade of averting the inevitable. A few years after that, Bangsog (its new name) will be a symbol of how to dump a country's treasury down the P-trap - to no useful avail.

[PoodMaiDai]

When it is totally flooded they will start to fight about how to solve the problem. Not a day sooner. Maybe more boats running their engines 24 hours a day will be the answer.

[finnomick1]

What will this do for condo prices?

I suppose it depends on which floor your condo is......

[finnomick1]

Quote:- " It's fast -- much faster than we thought ". Well, for those politicians who have their heads buried in the sand, the water should be around ear level by now

[maidu]

When you bring something in to get fixed at a Thai shop, usually the fix will be good enough to last a little while, and then the problem crops up again. The important thing, for the shop, is to get the money for the job. What happens later is secondary. Same same with Bangkok's impending water problems.