Negotiating Sin Sot With A "upper Class" Family With Unreasonable Request.

[MrSabai]

First of all excuse my poor English writing skills but till do my best to keep it understandable and thank you for taking time and read this.

I need advice like so many others before me about the sin sot issue, I have read all I can find online and build a good knowledge about the traditions and culture but still very unsure on how her mother is thinking since she ask for a unreasonable amount of money for sin sot.

I been married to a Thai woman before and we just divorced last year after more than 6 years of marriage and 8 years in a relationship, when we marry I had no clue on Thai culture and thinking back now I think I was a little bit of a moron not reading up better and trying to understand better but anyway I never did pay any big sin sot at that time and we only made a ceremonial engagement with her mom and then married in Sweden, so this being said I don’t have any good knowledge from my past relationship about sin sot. My ex-wife was a “good” girl from Issan with a BD in English but never married or kids and she was 25 when we meet her and I’m 7 years older.

So I I’m in a relationship now with a woman I really love and so far there isn’t any doubt in my mind about her honesty and feelings for me but of course I always keep my eyes and mind open for bad signals but still follow the flow and have a great time with her.

My future wife is 8 years younger then me, she have never been married and have no kids, but have had a Thai and farang boyfriend before and she lived with her falang boyfriend for a few years when she studied abroad. She has a good education and come from what I guess is a upper middle class family that lives in BKK, her mom owns a house there and a new apartment in center of BKK, both my girlfriend and her sister have good educations from UK and USA all paid by the family. My gf’s dad and mom are divorced since 20 years and her mom have a new “partner” that paid a big sin sot to her mom even if they didn’t marry, so this guy is pretty well covered money wise. Her mother is very old fashioned about relationship and even if my gf have had quite a few guys courting her they never got to the point where they talked about marriage, I think mostly because her mom scared them away, also I think her mom is worried because gf’s ex was a quite a jerk and fight a lot with her mother and never wanted to get married. Since I also know the family isn’t that big, and they don’t interact with their nabors it seem like her mother isn’t thinking that much of “showing” the money just to look better, it do feels like she just want to make her daughter secure in the future but that still doesn’t explain the unreasonable request

So on the 14 th in going to meet her mother to discuss me and my girlfriends future and from information I got ahead she is asking for 2 million thb and a “ring" in sin sot, this is to me very unrealistic number and even if I had that money its doesn’t feel right to accept anything that isn’t reasonable.

I done my part and trying to respect and understand the culture and Thai tradition but understanding how her mother thinks is not an easy thing, I have a plan to present a reasonable amount of sin sot, and a good plan to make my future wife be secure in the future and even though I know you can’t ask for sin sot back I will in other means make it clear that most of my offer I will invest in my and girlfriends future life.

So what am I asking for here? Well like I said I have a good plan but I could still need some advice and I would like to know how others with experience marrying a “higher class” woman would think and react to the situation.

I’m not an idiot that will put all my money or my life on the line just to marry but since everything feels very good about this girl and I because she is an amazing person and make me becoming a better person myself and she makes me very happy I’m going to do whatever is possible as long as it’s within reason

Thank you for your time and replies.

[commande]

If she is from an upper-class family, her family has money, she is educated in the west, she has to potential to make money (earn a living) - yes 2 million baht is about right. If everything your saying is true you have found a very rare Thai girl considering she will have anything to do with a foreigner, most well to do Thai's families wouldn't allow the marriage to a foreigner to go forward UNLESS you have a lot of money, career, family has money, etc.

Asian culture is still old school. The upper class push their children to marry into upper class, keeps money in the family. The children are groomed this way to, if it's not money it might be a visa.

Congratulations and I hope it works out for you. Sin Sot is negotiable but if she is asking for 2M Baht making a counter offer of 100k baht will be insulting, I think the lowest you can go would be MAYBE 1.7M Baht plus gold jewelry which will put you at around 2M Baht. By the way when she says gold jewelry your looking at least couple baht gold which is around 21k baht per baht (they measure gold in baht here), no cheap jewelry, probably looking at 150-200k in jewelry.

I suggest the following for you. Get a lawyer and have a prenuptial agreement drawn up, in that agreement make sure to put that if she leaves you or if she does something that results in a divorce such as cheating, etc. that the Sin Sot must be returned in full. This is also normal for high end weddings in Asia, yes this includes Thailand. If the family is serious they will advise your wife to be to sign it so at least your insured from fraud. you can also state that the Sin Sot be placed into a 10 year Bond that pays interest that is in both your name and the family name, this ensures that the money isn't spent prior to the sky falling if it ever does. If it doesn't in 10 years more money. You will loose the gold / jewelry either way, something happens they will sell it, say they lost it whatever.

Protect yourself smartly, there is love and then there is insurance. Just like a car, you might love that thing to death but would you drive it uninsured probably not. Todays world, prenumpts / insurance on a wedding is only SMART. In Thailand prenumpts are 100% honored and must be registered, law office will take care of all this for you.

Edited May 5, 2013 by commande

[MrSabai]

Well my information about the family status is based on what my GF tells me so it might be incorrect, for example GF drive a car from last year but she didn’t pay it in cash so she still have a loan for it. Also I think that mom’s partner’s money is what paid for both of her daughter’s education.

Her mom is a real-estate agent for Thai people and from what I heard she got the central apartment instead of getting money for sales she did in that building complex, her mother also own a small food/drink shop, and the house they live in is in the Bang Khen – Khan Na Yao area in BKK. When my GF dad married her mom he didn’t pay any big sin sot because they lived a different life then and also from a way simpler background in Phitsanulok.

I keep hearing that the most important thing for her is that her daughter have a secure future but at the moment that might be in the way of her happiness, my GF is very stressed about the whole thing and keep getting headaches and feeling a bit down and she herself also think it’s a bit stiff asking for that amount, even if she is on her mothers side of the table.

I fel kinda crappy putting this info here but what to do if I dont have anyone to get advice from in real life.

[oxymoron]

You have to be joking for xxxst sake.

Has had a Thai boyfriend, lived with a falang, "she's used goods", and her mothers asking Sin Sot, my Thai son nearly died laughing when I read this to him.

[JimmyTheMook]

Start low then go high.

[uptheos]

Well my information about the family status is based on what my GF tells me so it might be incorrect, for example GF drive a car from last year but she didn’t pay it in cash so she still have a loan for it. Also I think that mom’s partner’s money is what paid for both of her daughter’s education.

Her mom is a real-estate agent for Thai people and from what I heard she got the central apartment instead of getting money for sales she did in that building complex, her mother also own a small food/drink shop, and the house they live in is in the Bang Khen – Khan Na Yao area in BKK. When my GF dad married her mom he didn’t pay any big sin sot because they lived a different life then and also from a way simpler background in Phitsanulok.

I keep hearing that the most important thing for her is that her daughter have a secure future but at the moment that might be in the way of her happiness, my GF is very stressed about the whole thing and keep getting headaches and feeling a bit down and she herself also think it’s a bit stiff asking for that amount, even if she is on her mothers side of the table.

I fel kinda crappy putting this info here but what to do if I dont have anyone to get advice from in real life.

So, does she plan to invest the 2 million for her daughter's future?

[thaicbr]

I wouldn't pay any Sin sod to the Mum. It's usually just for face anyway. Your going to have to pay for the wedding not like in many western countries were the brides parents pay. Remind them of that and lay out what you're bringing to the relationship.

Is it going to be a big wedding? If yes that can be a few hundred thousand baht.

Have fun

PS: it sounds like the mum is just a pretend hi so. Sometimes the worst kind.

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

Edited May 5, 2013 by thaicbr

[Morakot]

You have to be joking for xxxst sake.

Has had a Thai boyfriend, lived with a falang, "she's used goods", and her mothers asking Sin Sot, my Thai son nearly died laughing when I read this to him.

Yep, but nobody officially knew about this. It just didn't happen and goods are still declared immaculate. Not that unusual.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Morakot

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Just say no.

[MrSabai]

Well I have no problem saying no if it’s an unreasonable requests and this I will know on the 14:th but maybe I was unclear in my post why I’m asking for advice, it’s because I want to be prepared for the time I sit there and trying to agree with her mother, because she is have a very sharp mind.

I’m trying to get my head around how she thinks.

And like I said I have no problem investing in my own and my future wifes life but to just putting money to someone that clearly not need it will be easy to say no to.

I’m also very clear that this is no country side girl I’m dating and I’m very clear about what costs to expect of a wedding party and ceremony in BKK.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

It doesn't matter.

You are not Thai, for you buying a wife is wrong.

So explain to the mother, in your country it is considered wrong, and you won't do it.

If mother says no wedding, up to her, just live with the girl, she's done it before, she can do it again.

Oh, explain to us again what YOU get out of the wedding?

(We already know it isn't her virginity)

Edited May 5, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[Morakot]

Sorry but did you say how old your future wife is? I think that might be an important factor. Also does she have an opinion about the amount for the sin sot that might be even more important.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Morakot

[transam]

OP, if you say to mum your daughter has been ................ by many, why the big price tag ?

I am not paying anything BUT your daughter loves me as I do her which is very important don't you think.

PS. OP, your lady has had a few and you may just be the next in line.

[Morakot]

OP, if you say to mum your daughter has been ................ by many, why the big price tag ?

I thought the OP is trying to get on with the future in-laws.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Sorry but did you say how old your future wife is? I think that might be an important factor. Also does she have an opinion about the amount for the sin sot that might be even more important.

OP says she wants 2M.

[transam]

OP, if you say to mum your daughter has been ................ by many, why the big price tag ?

I thought the OP is trying to get on with the future in-laws.

Seems only cash will fore fill mums eeeeeeeer pocket, eeeeeer new Vigo, eeeeeeeeeeeeer hi-so status.

[transam]

Sorry but did you say how old your future wife is? I think that might be an important factor. Also does she have an opinion about the amount for the sin sot that might be even more important.

OP says she wants 2M.

, well she is experienced with stuff.

[cardholder]

If you feel you need to negotiate with a Hi-So family you are probably not fit to be part of that family.

Farangs - "Sin Sot - Just Say NO".

[Morakot]

Sorry but did you say how old your future wife is? I think that might be an important factor. Also does she have an opinion about the amount for the sin sot that might be even more important.

OP says she wants 2M.

I was under the impression that's what her mother is asking. How does the daughter herself see the in sot business, especially since she has lived abroad and might be aware that in other places the groom's parents might get a dowry.

[Morakot]

If you feel you need to negotiate with a Hi-So family you are probably not fit to be part of that family.

I think its quite normal to negotiate. It'd be usual not to do.

There are cases were the amount that is publicly declared is higher than the amount given.

[transam]

I remember ''Luncheon Vouchers''.

[stoneyboy]

I remember ''Luncheon Vouchers''.

[transam]

I remember ''Luncheon Vouchers''.

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect Thailand1367759328.895316.jpg

Yeh that's them, OP go for the LV thing, if that don't work then ''Green Shield Stamps'' are a winner.

[fredob43]

Just spoke to the wife her reply used good's mother lucky some one want, 2 mil she deem 'Dream'

[whistleblower]

Do what the other 'Farang' boyfriend did, live in sin and avoid the sin sot.

Thai crooks use taxi scams, jet ski scams, jewelry scams etc. to elicit money from the gullible.

Non Thai 'crooks' use sin sot!

Dump her and invest the 2 mil in Soi Cowboy!

[commande]

Okay after reading your further information about her family. She is not "Upper Class" she is a normal Thai. This being said, the easiest way for a foreigner to understand Sin Sot is to just hire a Thai / Western Law Firm. I don't recommend anyone in particular, you can find many good ones on the internet located in Bangkok, I used many years ago Siam Legal, they offer a service, it's not expensive, of negotiating Sin Sot for you with the mother / parents. Don't get your wife involved, leave her out of it completely otherwise it can cause issues. Sin Sot is a business deal in the end between you and the mom. Since you are a foreigner, don't know Thai tradition, and I assume don't speak Thai leave it to the lawyers.

Now this may sound very impersonal, if the mom is as sharp as your saying then she will realize real quick that she isn't as sharp as she thinks she is when you tell her that you will be using an attorney to assist with negotiating the Sin Sot and other marriage related activities; if she is intelligent, she will appreciate that you are doing this but I doubt that will be the reaction . Thai Visa is not the place to ask for any real advise in how to approach mom, you have people like me that will try and steer you in the right direction and then you have the rest of the foreigners that will tell you to never pay Sin Sot because you are a foreigner and they consider it purchasing a wife; I'm from the USA, yes I had a REAL issue with this prior to getting married a while back. While everyone's opinion is relevant and true in some respects you have to in my opinion understand Thai culture, Sin Sot is a reality, same in China and other Asian countries.

2M Baht is way to much given the following data you have supplied:

1. Thai boyfriend in the past (she is not a virgin, used goods)

2. Foreign boyfriend in the past (she is not a virgin and is now considered damaged goods, most good Thai men wouldn't even date her knowing this information)

3. Broken Family - Her family is divorced, another bad hit on the face department, damaged family history

4. Family Business or Corporate Career - Doesn't sound as if mom or the rest of the family is well healed or owns anything of value which would place them in the Hi-So category. Again, normal Thai family, not even middle class unless mom us pulling over 100k baht a month in salary.

The list goes on and on... A lawyer in Thailand can help you out with this. I was shocked at how Sin Sot is really evaluated, there is no secret bulleted list, generally low class families will look at you and see money even if you don't have any BECAUSE you are a foreigner. Advise you tell her your attorney will be contacting her to discuss.

You must settle the Sin Sot immediately, if you can't settle it you need to move on or your wife to be will have to decide if she is willing to break family tradition and marry you without family permission which is a big no-no in Thailand BUT it happens and some of those marriages are working great. Definitely consider the prenuptial agreement.

Wish you the best of luck... FYI, my Thai wife is from a middle class family in Bangkok, family owns a manufacturing company for rubber parts, she has a masters degree in business, owns her own car that the family paid half for and she paid half for, she has always worked a real job and still does today so she makes her own money (I am not her sugar daddy), etc, etc, etc.... I got lucky but then again I didn't hang out in the bars, we met at a business dinner in Bangkok. I paid 150k baht in cash to the mom, 150k baht wedding ring, 200k baht wedding. I have never been asked for anything else since and the 150k baht in Sin Sot I paid has been placed into a 5 year interest yielding Bond which the family said they will return if I am a good husband and take care of their daughter. Now hopefully you see a different side of Thailand, middle income families act differently from low class families that look at Sin Sit as a new car or television for themselves.

My wife has read this, and she thinks you should pay even less than I did because of the broken family and past boyfriends. She also just said that if she doesn't work, even though she may be educated, that this is another bad thing because it tells her that she is just looking for a person with money and if times get bad like you loose your job she won't be able to help support the family because she has no skills. Massage or working a low level paying job is not a professional skill in her opinion.

Best of luck to you...

Edited May 6, 2013 by commande

[richard_smith237]

If the situation were Thai on Thai you would rely on your Taor-Gair (sp?! - Respected elder) to do the negation for you.

The negotiation is part of the normal wedding process in Thailand.

So, if you have a respectable elder friend who can communicate eloquently with the future MIL, this would be your best course of action.

With regards to Sin Sod - before dropping sums of money, you can ensure (through your fiancé) as to whether or not the money is for show of whether or not the MIL plans on keeping it.

If its for show - No problem, keep everyone happy by following tradition.

If the MIL intends on keeping the money - you have an issue. In this case you need to ensure that your Wife will side with you should things get tricky. But remember your MIL might put of a lot of pressure on your fiancé.

You need to make a decision - What are you prepared to loose. 2 million is a lot and you will obviously need that for your future, use that as part of your negotiation.

Everyone's situation is different and you are doing well to seek a wide range of advice. You will get some extreme views on this subject, some racist and bigoted, some ignoring culture, some believing that even though they are in Thailand the cultural norms don't apply to them.

In reality - Your wedding is the meeting of two cultures. An educated and reasonable family will always understand this.

You are not Thai, you never will be, but you can adopt and accept parts of the culture in much the same way you expect parts of your culture to be adopted and accepted.

Also remember; The way you behave now plants the seeds for future growth in the relationship between you and your family (in laws). If you become a push over you may be considered weak and loose respect. Equally so, if you are inflexible and take a hard line you may also loose respect. They key is about achieving a happy balance that can be understood and accepted by yourself and all those around you... Negotiation !!

[brewsterbudgen]

It doesn't matter.

You are not Thai, for you buying a wife is wrong.

So explain to the mother, in your country it is considered wrong, and you won't do it.

If mother says no wedding, up to her, just live with the girl, she's done it before, she can do it again.

Oh, explain to us again what YOU get out of the wedding?

(We already know it isn't her virginity)

Don't marry a Thai unless you're prepared to accept some important parts of their culture.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

It doesn't matter.

You are not Thai, for you buying a wife is wrong.

So explain to the mother, in your country it is considered wrong, and you won't do it.

If mother says no wedding, up to her, just live with the girl, she's done it before, she can do it again.

Oh, explain to us again what YOU get out of the wedding?

(We already know it isn't her virginity)

Don't marry a Thai unless you're prepared to accept some important parts of their culture.

By marrying a foreigner, she has already demonstrated she doesn't give a damn about Thai tradition.

By previously sleeping with a foreigner, she has already demonstrated she doesn't give a damn about what anyone thinks of her.

Edited May 6, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[commande]

If the situation were Thai on Thai you would rely on your Taor-Gair (sp?! - Respected elder) to do the negation for you.

The negotiation is part of the normal wedding process in Thailand.

So, if you have a respectable elder friend who can communicate eloquently with the future MIL, this would be your best course of action.

With regards to Sin Sod - before dropping sums of money, you can ensure (through your fiancé) as to whether or not the money is for show of whether or not the MIL plans on keeping it.

If its for show - No problem, keep everyone happy by following tradition.

If the MIL intends on keeping the money - you have an issue. In this case you need to ensure that your Wife will side with you should things get tricky. But remember your MIL might put of a lot of pressure on your fiancé.

You need to make a decision - What are you prepared to loose. 2 million is a lot and you will obviously need that for your future, use that as part of your negotiation.

Everyone's situation is different and you are doing well to seek a wide range of advice. You will get some extreme views on this subject, some racist and bigoted, some ignoring culture, some believing that even though they are in Thailand the cultural norms don't apply to them.

In reality - Your wedding is the meeting of two cultures. An educated and reasonable family will always understand this.

You are not Thai, you never will be, but you can adopt and accept parts of the culture in much the same way you expect parts of your culture to be adopted and accepted.

Also remember; The way you behave now plants the seeds for future growth in the relationship between you and your family (in laws). If you become a push over you may be considered weak and loose respect. Equally so, if you are inflexible and take a hard line you may also loose respect. They key is about achieving a happy balance that can be understood and accepted by yourself and all those around you... Negotiation !!

Very sound advise...