Abhisit, Suthep Face More Murder Charges Over 2010 Strife

[khunken]

Equally fascinating how you deliberately misrepresent others' views.

I do not support any 'culture of impunity' as you so simply put it. What I do support is justice & fairness, which is in short supply in the current political environment here today.

You support Abhisit & Suthep being tried for murder or accessories to murder. You do not explain how they might receive a fair trial. You also seem to have a very selective agenda regarding who should be made responsible for the riots & protests in 2010. Nothing about the power behind the red shirts & MIB who are at the equivalent level to Abhisit & Suthep.

Using the politicised DSI to investigate & instigate charges (along with all the other trumped-up charges which you choose to ignore) is not going to satisfy real justice - only the revenge type of 'justice' sought by some sections of the red shirts.

The major problem is the impunity allowed under the law for the military. That is where the blame is & shifting the blame to find someone else to take it is part of Thailands ' culture of scapegoatism'.

Well, they will receive a fair trial because you can be sure that there will be many national and international observers in that trial - journalists, diplomats, and members of relevant organizations. Trials here generally are public trials, and are therefore open to scrutiny.

Several alleged "MIB" are standing for trial right now, which the DSI has investigated during the Abhisit government - where the DSI was equally accused of being politicized, only then leaning towards the Democrat government and the military. Which has resulted in stalling investigations in the cases of dead protesters suspected to have been killed by the military.

As to the hypothesis of the so-called "power behind..." - it is just that, and does not take into account that the Red Shirts are a extremely complex social mass movement whose aims are not just the return of Thaksin, but are far beyond, and advocate structural changes in the Thai polity and society. But to find that out you will have to look a bit deeper into it than the Bangkok Post or the Nation, which still has huge difficulties in understanding the basic structures of the Red Shirts, as can be seen in reporting over the present protests at the constitution court, in which especially the Bangkok Post still reports it as an "UDD protest", while it is clear that this is organized by a network of so called "free Red Shirt groups" who are not under the authority of the UDD, and are neither supported nor funded by the UDD or the Pueah Thai Party.

But i digress...

But yes, i have no problem in the investigation into all the matters you mentioned. The Democrat led government had more than one year time and all the resources that come with being in government available. There were a few convicted Red Shirt protesters for more serious crimes than violations against the emergency decree, and many trials that collapsed because people were arrested on more than flimsy pretense, very little evidence that just could not stand up in court.

And yes, i agree with you that a one of the major problems is the impunity under which the military acts. Yet the Abhisit government went to bed with the military in order to come to power, and to stay in power. History might have been different if back in 2006 the Democrat Party would have made a principled stand against the coup (while still being Thaksin opponents - which is perfectly legitimate). The first leaders that protested against the coup, by the way, were actually Thaksin opponents, such as Dr. Weng, who was briefly part of the PAD before the coup, or Sombat "Nuling" Boonngamanong, and many others.

But the Democrat Party didn't - it just made a few meaningless statements, while in reality not just applauding the coup, but also key members of the Democrat Party, such as Kraisak Choonhavan, traveling around the world to make the coup appear nice to foreign leaders. The Democrat Party could also not have massively supported the PAD (which was also strongly supported by the military) in 2008, and then just riding the military's coattails to power.

In short - you make your bed, you gotta sleep in it. If now powerful members of the PT try to make their own deal with the military, it may one day come back to haunt them as well. Thai people increasingly are not tolerating the military structure anymore as it is, and even many soldiers are sick and tired of this system.

As far as a fair trial goes - maybe. The international media

may take as much notice as they did with Thaksin's conflict of interest trial -

not a lot. It was only the lunchbox 'incident' that made any real impact. The

red shirt court intimidation mob may play a part too.

Your take on the red shirts being factionalised is current

& I broadly agree with it. However, it was different 3 years ago when,

despite some differences of opinion, there were no real factions & they

certainly were supporters of Thaksin. The 2010 riots & protests were timed

just after part of Thaksin's ill-gotten wealth was sequestered.

You are openly showing your bias in panning the Bangkok Post

& The Nation. Both have reporters of varying quality & both do give

voice to PTP & red shirt supporters. Are you suggesting that they are worse

than, say, the BBC? Now there's an organisation that has lost its way & its

independence.

Yes, the Democrats had the opportunity to investigate the

power behind the red shirts as well as red shirt violence. They missed that

opportunity as their focus was too much on tracking Thaksin & using the DSI

(& others) to file OTT terrorist charges against protestors & rioters.

As I said, they also missed the opportunity to set up a proper independent

investigative body to look at the events in a balanced way.

However, I don't think they believed that PTP would target

Abhisit so blatantly with so many trumped-up charges. More on that

later.

Your comments on the coup & the Democrats 'support' for it

yet again displays your bias. IMO they didn't display overt support, nor overt

condemnation. They would have been politically naive to condemn it. Similarly

they didn't provide 'massive support' for the PAD (surely confirmation of your

bias). They had a FM who was a PAD member & an idiot, the latter similar to

the current FM. On the other hand, the PTP did overtly support the 2010 riots & protests.

Pot, Kettle & black.

'Riding the military's coattails to power' - sorry, we're now

into the propaganda arena. There were two regimes between the coup & the

Democrats in power (Somchai & Samak). So, if you believe in this you are

into conspiracy theories, which you have criticised others for.

Which 'people' are growing intolerant of the

military? I think we know the answer to that. A far more

broadly-based view is that the problems with the military (and there are major

ones, especially in the south) are secondary to the problems with the police who

are widely viewed as systematically corrupt and both disrespected & feared.

Most citizens have far more dealings with the police than they do with the

military.

The police & their supposed large scale investigatory body

(the DSI) are totally controlled by the PTP which is far more anti-democratic

than any perceived problems with the CC. It is painfully obvious that the PTP,

by abusing their control, are trying to tie Abhisit up with as many trumped-up

charges as possible so that he & the Democrats cannot provide their focus on

opposing bringing back Thaksin with all the outstanding conviction &

suspended court cases dropped. The DoD committee (kangaroo court) stripping

Abhisit of his military service record was part of it.

Again, Abhisit & Suthep should not be charged over the

2010 riots as it is only politically motivated.

A few point, because i have to work soon.

Already from 2006 onwards the groups that became the Red Shirts had many factions and independent groups that never joined the Nor Bor Kor, or the later Nor Por Chor. Groups such as the 24th of June group and many other small groups. In 2010 the UDD distanced themselves from Surachai Sae Dan's Red Siam (founded in 2009), who had a separate stage. Sae Daeng was never part of the UDD. Within the UDD you had the so called hardcore faction which and the peaceful faction. There was further regional factionalism between the Southern faction and the Isaarn and Northern factions. After 2010 the factionalism was only more pronounced, partly through initial lack of UDD leadership, and through rising differences in both political strategies and ideologies.

Democrat support for the PAD: unfortunately here i have to cite the lack of media reporting. Other than the well known leaders that were prominent Democrat members, you had on the common protesters levels massive involvement. Whole guard units of the PAD were on loan from Democrat Party street fighters of local MP from both Bangkok and Southern provinces. Many southern PAD chapters were from southern Democrat vote canvassers. It was quite obvious to see, when the PAD protested against Abhisit in 2011, and exactly those Democrat Party guards and vote canvassers were absent from the protest areas.

But all this you cannot gather from reading the newsmedia, you will have to investigate this on the ground, you will have to know the political networks and build relationships with the people involved.

And yes - before i am accused of white washing - i am aware that the involvement of TRT/PPP/PT in the Red Shirts is equally complex. Most people though here are not aware of the (former) extend of Democrat Party/PAD collaboration.

While i cannot argue that now the DSI is leaning towards the government, it was during the Abhisit government leaning strongly towards the Democrats and the military. And if there is a change of government - you can be sure that the DSI will lean towards whatever government that will be in power.

Yes, there are naturally many problems within the police, and it desperately needs to be reformed. But just because the military is less in public view does not mean that the problems of the military are any less. The military is far more powerful than the police, and have in some way created a state within the state, which the police has only achieved in the 50's under General Pao, before its power was lastingly curtailed.

Anyhow, gotta go now.

First, thank you for your contribution to this thread. You obviously know a lot more of the ins-and-outs behind the red & yellow shirts than anyone else here. I'm just an amateur observer who has lived here since 1996 and followed Thai politics from whatever was available on various media.

I will say, however, that in your research & involvement you have plunged into the forest but have difficulty in seeing the wood for the trees. All the factions making up the red shirts that were involved in politics overtly or covertly seemed to come together in 2010 or maybe in 2009 which was the start of their violent actions. You avoid commenting on what was really behind the 2010 riots & protests - I find that hard to take given your insider knowledge.

You also seem to equate red shirt violence with yellow shirt violence which is also hard to take. While there were incidents of violence during the yellow shirt protests, they were pale in comparison to the red shirt version which included violent & lethal attacks in Bangkok, Chiang Mai & Udon Thani - separate to the main 2010 protests & riots.

Your description of yellow shirt & Democrat party people & supporters helping one another does not prove that the Democrat party (as an institution) backed the yellow shirts. The PTP + red shirt alliance is rather closer.

The DSI 'leaning'? This is a complete understatement of the workings of the DSI. Yes, it was used by the Abhisit government to initiate the prosecution of red shirts - I've already admitted that - and use the terrorist term, which, again I've disagreed with. It is now not just 'leaning' towards the PTP but is controlled by them. You have been less than forthcoming about the frivolous & blatantly political targeting of Abhisit. Automatic transfers are apparently illegal if made by Democrats.

Only in some respects is the military more powerful than the police. Day to day, the police are the real power in all provinces except for the southern-most provinces. Both are up to their eyes in trafficking and the poor handling of refugees. I'm pretty sure that if you asked the average Thai which they would give preference to for a complete overhaul, they would choose the police. The army (plus the other forces) would come second.

Having virtually complete control over the police (& the DSI) is a mockery of democracy. But the whole democracy question is not for this topic.

[longtom]

I'm afraid your palette has but one colour.

Don't we all love this sophisticated argument, from (us!) keyboard warriors.

compared to somebody who was actually in the middle of it all (and I don't mean coming home from work or 7/11).

[hellodolly]

I'm afraid your palette has but one colour.

Don't we all love this sophisticated argument, from (us!) keyboard warriors.

compared to somebody who was actually in the middle of it all (and I don't mean coming home from work or 7/11).

Right on the money.

He was arm and arm with them. He might or might not have had a gun but he could very well have been putting up barbed wire barricades for them cooking cleaning washing for them. It takes more than a guy with a gun to mount a terrorist attack for over a month and a half.

When you are choosing to stand behind the red lines it is quite easy to have only one color on your palate. That was probably the reason he chose to go behind the red shirt lines.

[rubl]

What makes it almost impossible for me here is that many seem to have internalized the notion that the Red Shirts are simply a paid mob of terrorists paid and commanded by Thaksin. This, i am sorry to say, is completely wrong.

Unless you start understanding that the Red Shirts are a very complex social mass movement with many groups, it members ranging from all sectors of Thai society - from farmers to intellectuals, these groups strategies ranging from reformist to revolutionary, with very active discussions on all levels, discussion is just not possible.

On some level i can't blame you. Reporting on the Red Shirts in the English language media is more than insufficient. I can't remember any article in the English language media that looks at structure, dynamics and political ideology of the Red Shirts (and i have in my archives thousands of articles - several gigs of space on my computer).

I believe that i have studied the Red Shirts closer than anybody else since the birth of the that movement even before the military coup. And before i get accused of being embedded or biased - i have done the same with the Yellow Shirts, and also since last year i have went to many of the Democrat Party's Blue Sky rallies, since the Dems decided to form their own street movement (which has so far completely failed to take off).

That is why i can only state here that in order to understand this social conflict here you will have to go to the rallies of the different sides in person, and discuss the issues with people of all levels there.

If this whole thing would be as simplistic as many on Thaivisa believe, i would not have spent the last 7+ years of my life studying this conflict - i would have been bored a long time ago. And no, doing this was not exactly financially rewarding - i don't do it for the money either. I do it because it is a highly fascinating subject.

Somebody here mentioned the term "western education". Part of "western education" is to question everything, and to develop a thirst for learning. Therefore i would suggest to you people to go and learn where this conflict takes place: at rallies (small and large), community radio stations, grassroots organizations, etc.

Don;t just stay in internet discussion forums.

Now you are probably right in all that you say.

But none of it has any thing to do with the fact that the red shirts recieving pay from Thaksin illigaly siezed a portion of down town Bangkok behind barbed wire fences when the police refused to do sany thing about them the army was called in to get them out.

Du8ring there illegal tenure for which no charges have been laid. They fired live ammunition at soldiers and rockets at civilians as well as invaded a hospital.

You babble on about your doubt of the legality of the governments actions and say nothing about the illegal actions of the red shirts.

Would you have walked in there and peaceful escorted them out when they were carrying a gun and talking about burning Bangkok down.

Yes it was a social conflict that turned into an illegal action on the part of people who were paid to break the law and refuse to negotiate in good faith. Remember that they came to an agreement and when the government agreed to it they backed out of it and continued with there illegal carrings on including urging red shirts to burn Bangkok down and then proceed to try to do it.

You meander all over the place with your wanderings yet you never face the reality of what the red shirts did.

I can't remember you ever saying any thing about the rights of the honest citizens to earn a living but were deprived of it by the illegal actions of the red shirts.

I bet you would have a different story and point of view if one of those rockets launched at civilian targets had killed a member of your family.

I supported the red shirts but when they started with the pouring of blood that could have well been HIV positive I realized this had nothing to do with justice it was a mob that had made their demands clear and were now doing any thing they could think of to unseat an legally elected government. At that point I changed my attitude towards them and they proceeded to prove me right in changing my attitude towards them.

Do you think Abhist should be charged with misappropriation of funds by paying there way home for them?

Just very briefly.

I do not want to lead this discussion away from the main subject any further. But discussing Red Shirt violence can only be done in context with violence by the state (and the PAD as well), and as part of an escalation process over many years.

As to what i would feel if one of my family members would have been killed by a grenade of Red Shirt armed militants. Well, i had several very close calls when i was nearly blown up by some of those grenades myself, the closest on May 19, where the first of the rain of grenades that killed a soldier and wounded Chandler Vanergrift exploded only two meters from me, but was fortunately most likely a training round as there was no shrapnel. I was also during the Silom grenade attacks on the side of the Yellow Shirts while the grenades came down.

So, yes, i am more than aware of the reality of Red Shirt violence than you will ever know, if you are lucky.

The blood issue is very complex, and already at least two fascinating anthropological studies have been done on this incident, one of the culturally most interesting and relevant during the 2010 protests.

It's getting a bit off topic with all these grenades, but since you mention it. You once wrote you heard about the first grenade attack on the multi-shirts and speeded to be able to see and report and were just in time to photograph the second attack result. Had you arrived at the right time you might have been one of the reporters who were killed by unknowns. and off course we'd charge Abhisit and Suthep.

No offence, but this is the very first time I hear from anyone you stood two meters from an exploding grenade. Once you wrote you thought vanderGrift running around with the army seemed to have a deathwish, you and others dashed off from them. Time effecting some description it would seem.

EDIT: correction on the two SalaDaeng grenade attacks, from NN himself:

"I came a few minutes after the grenades at the BTS station went off (which caused little damage, only a few lightly injured), but was right in time for the volley that landed a bit later in the middle of the Yellow Shirt protesters at the coffee shop close to the Dusit, killing one and injuring many. Otherwise i could hardly have photographed the injured..."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/556164-bangkok-huge-turnout-expected-at-red-shirt-rally-today/page-17#entry5320797

Edited May 7, 2013 by rubl

[brd199]

What makes it almost impossible for me here is that many seem to have internalized the notion that the Red Shirts are simply a paid mob of terrorists paid and commanded by Thaksin. This, i am sorry to say, is completely wrong.

Unless you start understanding that the Red Shirts are a very complex social mass movement with many groups, it members ranging from all sectors of Thai society - from farmers to intellectuals, these groups strategies ranging from reformist to revolutionary, with very active discussions on all levels, discussion is just not possible.

On some level i can't blame you. Reporting on the Red Shirts in the English language media is more than insufficient. I can't remember any article in the English language media that looks at structure, dynamics and political ideology of the Red Shirts (and i have in my archives thousands of articles - several gigs of space on my computer).

I believe that i have studied the Red Shirts closer than anybody else since the birth of the that movement even before the military coup. And before i get accused of being embedded or biased - i have done the same with the Yellow Shirts, and also since last year i have went to many of the Democrat Party's Blue Sky rallies, since the Dems decided to form their own street movement (which has so far completely failed to take off).

That is why i can only state here that in order to understand this social conflict here you will have to go to the rallies of the different sides in person, and discuss the issues with people of all levels there.

If this whole thing would be as simplistic as many on Thaivisa believe, i would not have spent the last 7+ years of my life studying this conflict - i would have been bored a long time ago. And no, doing this was not exactly financially rewarding - i don't do it for the money either. I do it because it is a highly fascinating subject.

Somebody here mentioned the term "western education". Part of "western education" is to question everything, and to develop a thirst for learning. Therefore i would suggest to you people to go and learn where this conflict takes place: at rallies (small and large), community radio stations, grassroots organizations, etc.

Don;t just stay in internet discussion forums.

Now you are probably right in all that you say.

But none of it has any thing to do with the fact that the red shirts recieving pay from Thaksin illigaly siezed a portion of down town Bangkok behind barbed wire fences when the police refused to do sany thing about them the army was called in to get them out.

Du8ring there illegal tenure for which no charges have been laid. They fired live ammunition at soldiers and rockets at civilians as well as invaded a hospital.

You babble on about your doubt of the legality of the governments actions and say nothing about the illegal actions of the red shirts.

Would you have walked in there and peaceful escorted them out when they were carrying a gun and talking about burning Bangkok down.

Yes it was a social conflict that turned into an illegal action on the part of people who were paid to break the law and refuse to negotiate in good faith. Remember that they came to an agreement and when the government agreed to it they backed out of it and continued with there illegal carrings on including urging red shirts to burn Bangkok down and then proceed to try to do it.

You meander all over the place with your wanderings yet you never face the reality of what the red shirts did.

I can't remember you ever saying any thing about the rights of the honest citizens to earn a living but were deprived of it by the illegal actions of the red shirts.

I bet you would have a different story and point of view if one of those rockets launched at civilian targets had killed a member of your family.

I supported the red shirts but when they started with the pouring of blood that could have well been HIV positive I realized this had nothing to do with justice it was a mob that had made their demands clear and were now doing any thing they could think of to unseat an legally elected government. At that point I changed my attitude towards them and they proceeded to prove me right in changing my attitude towards them.

Do you think Abhist should be charged with misappropriation of funds by paying there way home for them?

Just very briefly.

I do not want to lead this discussion away from the main subject any further. But discussing Red Shirt violence can only be done in context with violence by the state (and the PAD as well), and as part of an escalation process over many years.

As to what i would feel if one of my family members would have been killed by a grenade of Red Shirt armed militants. Well, i had several very close calls when i was nearly blown up by some of those grenades myself, the closest on May 19, where the first of the rain of grenades that killed a soldier and wounded Chandler Vanergrift exploded only two meters from me, but was fortunately most likely a training round as there was no shrapnel. I was also during the Silom grenade attacks on the side of the Yellow Shirts while the grenades came down.

So, yes, i am more than aware of the reality of Red Shirt violence than you will ever know, if you are lucky.

The blood issue is very complex, and already at least two fascinating anthropological studies have been done on this incident, one of the culturally most interesting and relevant during the 2010 protests.

It's getting a bit off topic with all these grenades, but since you mention it. You once wrote you heard about the first grenade attack on the multi-shirts and speeded to be able to see and report and were just in time to photograph the second attack result. Had you arrived at the right time you might have been one of the reporters who were killed by unknowns. and off course we'd charge Abhisit and Suthep.

No offence, but this is the very first time I hear from anyone you stood two meters from an exploding grenade. Once you wrote you thought vanderGrift running around with the army seemed to have a deathwish, you and others dashed off from them. Time effecting some description it would seem.

EDIT: correction on the two SalaDaeng grenade attacks, from NN himself:

"I came a few minutes after the grenades at the BTS station went off (which caused little damage, only a few lightly injured), but was right in time for the volley that landed a bit later in the middle of the Yellow Shirt protesters at the coffee shop close to the Dusit, killing one and injuring many. Otherwise i could hardly have photographed the injured..."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/556164-bangkok-huge-turnout-expected-at-red-shirt-rally-today/page-17#entry5320797

Events, like history, are subject to rewriting.

[nicknostitz]

It's getting a bit off topic with all these grenades, but since you mention it. You once wrote you heard about the first grenade attack on the multi-shirts and speeded to be able to see and report and were just in time to photograph the second attack result. Had you arrived at the right time you might have been one of the reporters who were killed by unknowns. and off course we'd charge Abhisit and Suthep.

No offence, but this is the very first time I hear from anyone you stood two meters from an exploding grenade. Once you wrote you thought vanderGrift running around with the army seemed to have a deathwish, you and others dashed off from them. Time effecting some description it would seem.

EDIT: correction on the two SalaDaeng grenade attacks, from NN himself:

"I came a few minutes after the grenades at the BTS station went off (which caused little damage, only a few lightly injured), but was right in time for the volley that landed a bit later in the middle of the Yellow Shirt protesters at the coffee shop close to the Dusit, killing one and injuring many. Otherwise i could hardly have photographed the injured..."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/556164-bangkok-huge-turnout-expected-at-red-shirt-rally-today/page-17#entry5320797

I find some of those comments quite insulting.

Yes, there are many events and things i have not posted about on Thaivisa. I do have a life outside Thaivisa - as you can see only very rarely i involve myself in discussions here. I do not feel the need to post every whim on Thaivisa, or the net. This is *my* life, and it is none of your business to question very painful personal experiences of mine.

My last explanation on this subject:

The first grenade on May 19 went off in the middle of a group of us journalists while we were having a chat. It wasn't just me who was there. All of us then ran for cover. There are images from several photographers available showing us laying flat down in a huddle, and a Thai Rath photographer snapped me jumping over a couple of journos to take cover in a small side alley - it's an image i rarely look at as it evokes some very bad memories, my facial expression shows how absolutely scared and close to panic i was (and before you ask - no, i will not post that image here). A few minutes after Chandler was injured while being in a group of soldiers who were in direct line of fire.

Don't question me anymore on this. This is personal.

Edited May 7, 2013 by nicknostitz

[rubl]

It's getting a bit off topic with all these grenades, but since you mention it. You once wrote you heard about the first grenade attack on the multi-shirts and speeded to be able to see and report and were just in time to photograph the second attack result. Had you arrived at the right time you might have been one of the reporters who were killed by unknowns. and off course we'd charge Abhisit and Suthep.

No offence, but this is the very first time I hear from anyone you stood two meters from an exploding grenade. Once you wrote you thought vanderGrift running around with the army seemed to have a deathwish, you and others dashed off from them. Time effecting some description it would seem.

EDIT: correction on the two SalaDaeng grenade attacks, from NN himself:

"I came a few minutes after the grenades at the BTS station went off (which caused little damage, only a few lightly injured), but was right in time for the volley that landed a bit later in the middle of the Yellow Shirt protesters at the coffee shop close to the Dusit, killing one and injuring many. Otherwise i could hardly have photographed the injured..."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/556164-bangkok-huge-turnout-expected-at-red-shirt-rally-today/page-17#entry5320797

I find some of those comments quite insulting.

Yes, there are many events and things i have not posted about on Thaivisa. I do have a life outside Thaivisa - as you can see only very rarely i involve myself in discussions here. I do not feel the need to post every whim on Thaivisa, or the net. This is *my* life, and it is none of your business to question very painful personal experiences of mine.

My last explanation on this subject:

The first grenade on May 19 went off in the middle of a group of us journalists while we were having a chat. It wasn't just me who was there. All of us then ran for cover. There are images from several photographers available showing us laying flat down in a huddle, and a Thai Rath photographer snapped me jumping over a couple of journos to take cover in a small side alley - it's an image i rarely look at as it evokes some very bad memories, my facial expression shows how absolutely scared and close to panic i was (and before you ask - no, i will not post that image here). A few minutes after Chandler was injured while being in a group of soldiers who were in direct line of fire.

Don't question me anymore on this. This is personal.

Nick, you mentioned to be two meters from an exploding grenade which wasn't one. Now we have one in the middle of 'us journalists', If I am not allowed to question you about this as I've never seen this written before, why do you mention it?

BTW what I did find:

"Nick Nostitz, a German freelance photographer who's been living in Thailand for a few years, was about 60 metres from Vandergrift when the army stormed the protest camp.

"When the military started moving in, there was an enormous amount of gunfire," Nostitz told The Canadian Press in an phone interview from Bangkok.

"Then the Black Shirts, a radical faction under the Red Shirts, started firing grenades against the military and Vandergrift was hit by one of the grenades.""

http://news.ca.msn.com/canada/cp-article.aspx?cp-documentid=24287948

""Chandler Vandergrift, a Calgary documentary-maker in his 20s working in Bangkok, suffered injuries to his brain, legs and arms after a M79 grenade exploded less than 70 metres from him, said freelance photographer Nick Nostitz.

"He needed brain surgery. Doctors don't really know yet, but they believe he might be handicapped," he said in an interview with Canwest News Service."

http://www.globaltvbc.com/Young+Canadian+filmmaker+wounded+grenade+Thailand/3047990/story.html

[brd199]

It's getting a bit off topic with all these grenades, but since you mention it. You once wrote you heard about the first grenade attack on the multi-shirts and speeded to be able to see and report and were just in time to photograph the second attack result. Had you arrived at the right time you might have been one of the reporters who were killed by unknowns. and off course we'd charge Abhisit and Suthep.

No offence, but this is the very first time I hear from anyone you stood two meters from an exploding grenade. Once you wrote you thought vanderGrift running around with the army seemed to have a deathwish, you and others dashed off from them. Time effecting some description it would seem.

EDIT: correction on the two SalaDaeng grenade attacks, from NN himself:

"I came a few minutes after the grenades at the BTS station went off (which caused little damage, only a few lightly injured), but was right in time for the volley that landed a bit later in the middle of the Yellow Shirt protesters at the coffee shop close to the Dusit, killing one and injuring many. Otherwise i could hardly have photographed the injured..."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/556164-bangkok-huge-turnout-expected-at-red-shirt-rally-today/page-17#entry5320797

I find some of those comments quite insulting.

Yes, there are many events and things i have not posted about on Thaivisa. I do have a life outside Thaivisa - as you can see only very rarely i involve myself in discussions here. I do not feel the need to post every whim on Thaivisa, or the net. This is *my* life, and it is none of your business to question very painful personal experiences of mine.

My last explanation on this subject:

The first grenade on May 19 went off in the middle of a group of us journalists while we were having a chat. It wasn't just me who was there. All of us then ran for cover. There are images from several photographers available showing us laying flat down in a huddle, and a Thai Rath photographer snapped me jumping over a couple of journos to take cover in a small side alley - it's an image i rarely look at as it evokes some very bad memories, my facial expression shows how absolutely scared and close to panic i was (and before you ask - no, i will not post that image here). A few minutes after Chandler was injured while being in a group of soldiers who were in direct line of fire.

Don't question me anymore on this. This is personal.

So it is ok for you to first mention these events, but not ok for anyone to question you about them, even when inconsistencies are shown.

If something is supposedly too personal to discuss, it seems simple enough not to mention them in the first place yourself.

[nicknostitz]

First, thank you for your contribution to this thread. You obviously know a lot more of the ins-and-outs behind the red & yellow shirts than anyone else here. I'm just an amateur observer who has lived here since 1996 and followed Thai politics from whatever was available on various media.

I will say, however, that in your research & involvement you have plunged into the forest but have difficulty in seeing the wood for the trees. All the factions making up the red shirts that were involved in politics overtly or covertly seemed to come together in 2010 or maybe in 2009 which was the start of their violent actions. You avoid commenting on what was really behind the 2010 riots & protests - I find that hard to take given your insider knowledge.

You also seem to equate red shirt violence with yellow shirt violence which is also hard to take. While there were incidents of violence during the yellow shirt protests, they were pale in comparison to the red shirt version which included violent & lethal attacks in Bangkok, Chiang Mai & Udon Thani - separate to the main 2010 protests & riots.

Your description of yellow shirt & Democrat party people & supporters helping one another does not prove that the Democrat party (as an institution) backed the yellow shirts. The PTP + red shirt alliance is rather closer.

The DSI 'leaning'? This is a complete understatement of the workings of the DSI. Yes, it was used by the Abhisit government to initiate the prosecution of red shirts - I've already admitted that - and use the terrorist term, which, again I've disagreed with. It is now not just 'leaning' towards the PTP but is controlled by them. You have been less than forthcoming about the frivolous & blatantly political targeting of Abhisit. Automatic transfers are apparently illegal if made by Democrats.

Only in some respects is the military more powerful than the police. Day to day, the police are the real power in all provinces except for the southern-most provinces. Both are up to their eyes in trafficking and the poor handling of refugees. I'm pretty sure that if you asked the average Thai which they would give preference to for a complete overhaul, they would choose the police. The army (plus the other forces) would come second.

Having virtually complete control over the police (& the DSI) is a mockery of democracy. But the whole democracy question is not for this topic.

There are a lot of issues i will not comment on at this present time, and definitely not on an internet forum. As to what was behind the 2010 protests, the issue is so complex that i just do not have the time to go through this, and which would anyhow be deleted because it would derail the topic way too far from the original subject - being the murder charges.

As to yellow violence - there are many things that the public may not be aware off. The yellow barricades at government house were mined the same way the red shirt barricades were mined (but were not exploded in the end). The PAD in 2008 committed several murders as well, shot at innocent bystanders, injured some, shot at a journalist's van, etc.

The PAD was in the end never dispersed the same way the Red Shirts were (because the army refused to follow the orders of the then Somchai government). You can be quite sure that the PAD would have fought the security forces the same the Red Shirts have fought them in 2010. The had the weapons, and were more than ready to use them.

Do not forget that many members of both Red and Yellow have in previous confrontations between people and state been fighting together against the military. That counts for guards, and leaders. So, for example, were Suriyasai Katasila, former PAD spokesman, and Jatuporn Prompan very close friends from the days of May 92, were both were guard leaders. Both movements have many former student activists, and both have many former members of the Communist Party of Thailand.

Anyhow, i am sorry, i enjoyed the discussion with you, but i have to cut it short. I am quite tired, and over the next few days i will be quite busy.

[Insight]

There are a lot of issues i will not comment on at this present time, and definitely not on an internet forum. As to what was behind the 2010 protests, the issue is so complex that i just do not have the time to go through this, and which would anyhow be deleted because it would derail the topic way too far from the original subject - being the murder charges.

Of course Honest Nick can't comment on the *real* reasons behind the red shirt so-called "Million Man March", which happened just weeks after the courts very damning ruling against Thaksin. It may be considered off-topic, it would break a million and one forum rules, and us lowly observers would simply not understand anyway. Save your precious time.

But as for completely off-topic accusations - lacking in evidence - and hyperbole involving the PAD/Yellow shirts, that's a different story entirely...

As to yellow violence - there are many things that the public may not be aware off. The yellow barricades at government house were mined the same way the red shirt barricades were mined (but were not exploded in the end). The PAD in 2008 committed several murders as well, shot at innocent bystanders, injured some, shot at a journalist's van, etc.

The PAD was in the end never dispersed the same way the Red Shirts were (because the army refused to follow the orders of the then Somchai government). You can be quite sure that the PAD would have fought the security forces the same the Red Shirts have fought them in 2010. The had the weapons, and were more than ready to use them.

We all know about the dead body which strangely just turned up at Don Muang. Any more info on these so-called "murder s"? If we really "can be sure", why didn't the yellow shirts react "in the same way" after having their legs blown off by the police tear gas grenades?

Anyhow, i am sorry, i enjoyed the discussion with you, but i have to cut it short. I am quite tired, and over the next few days i will be quite busy.

I have absolutely no doubt you will be "quite busy" over the next few days.

[nicknostitz]

It's getting a bit off topic with all these grenades, but since you mention it. You once wrote you heard about the first grenade attack on the multi-shirts and speeded to be able to see and report and were just in time to photograph the second attack result. Had you arrived at the right time you might have been one of the reporters who were killed by unknowns. and off course we'd charge Abhisit and Suthep.

No offence, but this is the very first time I hear from anyone you stood two meters from an exploding grenade. Once you wrote you thought vanderGrift running around with the army seemed to have a deathwish, you and others dashed off from them. Time effecting some description it would seem.

EDIT: correction on the two SalaDaeng grenade attacks, from NN himself:

"I came a few minutes after the grenades at the BTS station went off (which caused little damage, only a few lightly injured), but was right in time for the volley that landed a bit later in the middle of the Yellow Shirt protesters at the coffee shop close to the Dusit, killing one and injuring many. Otherwise i could hardly have photographed the injured..."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/556164-bangkok-huge-turnout-expected-at-red-shirt-rally-today/page-17#entry5320797

I find some of those comments quite insulting.

Yes, there are many events and things i have not posted about on Thaivisa. I do have a life outside Thaivisa - as you can see only very rarely i involve myself in discussions here. I do not feel the need to post every whim on Thaivisa, or the net. This is *my* life, and it is none of your business to question very painful personal experiences of mine.

My last explanation on this subject:

The first grenade on May 19 went off in the middle of a group of us journalists while we were having a chat. It wasn't just me who was there. All of us then ran for cover. There are images from several photographers available showing us laying flat down in a huddle, and a Thai Rath photographer snapped me jumping over a couple of journos to take cover in a small side alley - it's an image i rarely look at as it evokes some very bad memories, my facial expression shows how absolutely scared and close to panic i was (and before you ask - no, i will not post that image here). A few minutes after Chandler was injured while being in a group of soldiers who were in direct line of fire.

Don't question me anymore on this. This is personal.

Nick, you mentioned to be two meters from an exploding grenade which wasn't one. Now we have one in the middle of 'us journalists', If I am not allowed to question you about this as I've never seen this written before, why do you mention it?

BTW what I did find:

"Nick Nostitz, a German freelance photographer who's been living in Thailand for a few years, was about 60 metres from Vandergrift when the army stormed the protest camp.

"When the military started moving in, there was an enormous amount of gunfire," Nostitz told The Canadian Press in an phone interview from Bangkok.

"Then the Black Shirts, a radical faction under the Red Shirts, started firing grenades against the military and Vandergrift was hit by one of the grenades.""

http://news.ca.msn.com/canada/cp-article.aspx?cp-documentid=24287948

""Chandler Vandergrift, a Calgary documentary-maker in his 20s working in Bangkok, suffered injuries to his brain, legs and arms after a M79 grenade exploded less than 70 metres from him, said freelance photographer Nick Nostitz.

"He needed brain surgery. Doctors don't really know yet, but they believe he might be handicapped," he said in an interview with Canwest News Service."

http://www.globaltvbc.com/Young+Canadian+filmmaker+wounded+grenade+Thailand/3047990/story.html

You really start pissing me off. Again.

What is you point with this stupid questioning?

Chandler was hit by the third or forth grenade. The first one, which most likely was a training round, exploded in the middle of a group of us, and we ran for cover. That is why i was about 60 meters or so away when the grenade hit Chandler. Because i ran that distance for cover, and stayed there until the grenades stopped coming, when a group of soldiers came and fired in the direction of where the grenades came from. Is that somewhat understandable? I ran for cover because i decided it was simple common sense to get out of the line of fire as quick as possible and stay there. I am not interested to become a dead or injured hero. I was interested to get over the day, and get home safe to my family. That is why i decided it was the safer option that day to go in with the military, and not to take images from within the Red Shirt area, as i did not want to risk to get into the situation Fabio got killed in.

Several medias called me up and asked me about the Chandler incident, and what happened to him. During that period many media outlets called me all the time on what was going on. I worked for several media outlets during this time as well. This is my profession, and i am well known for my work on both the Red Shirts and the Yellow Shirts.

These were stories on Chandler and not on me. So what is the point of waffling on how i and others were not injured? Journos who were not injured is not a story the international media is interested in. Period. Chandler got badly hit, and it became a story.

Edited May 7, 2013 by nicknostitz

[nicknostitz]

There are a lot of issues i will not comment on at this present time, and definitely not on an internet forum. As to what was behind the 2010 protests, the issue is so complex that i just do not have the time to go through this, and which would anyhow be deleted because it would derail the topic way too far from the original subject - being the murder charges.

Of course Honest Nick can't comment on the *real* reasons behind the red shirt so-called "Million Man March", which happened just weeks after the courts very damning ruling against Thaksin. It may be considered off-topic, it would break a million and one forum rules, and us lowly observers would simply not understand anyway. Save your precious time.

But as for completely off-topic accusations - lacking in evidence - and hyperbole involving the PAD/Yellow shirts, that's a different story entirely...

>>As to yellow violence - there are many things that the public may not be aware off. The yellow barricades at government house were mined the same way the red shirt barricades were mined (but were not exploded in the end). The PAD in 2008 committed several murders as well, shot at innocent bystanders, injured some, shot at a journalist's van, etc.

The PAD was in the end never dispersed the same way the Red Shirts were (because the army refused to follow the orders of the then Somchai government). You can be quite sure that the PAD would have fought the security forces the same the Red Shirts have fought them in 2010. The had the weapons, and were more than ready to use them.

We all know about the dead body which strangely just turned up at Don Muang. Any more info on these so-called "murder s"? If we really "can be sure", why didn't the yellow shirts react "in the same way" after having their legs blown off by the police tear gas grenades?

Anyhow, i am sorry, i enjoyed the discussion with you, but i have to cut it short. I am quite tired, and over the next few days i will be quite busy.

I have absolutely no doubt you will be "quite busy" over the next few days.

the little mob comes out in force now...

Yes, i will be busy. The reds are protesting, a yellow group has occupied a part of Sanam Luang, and i will switch between both camps. Care to join if you can tear yourself off the screen?

And if you want to find out about the different murders and shooting incidents the PAD committed in 2008, just go through the archives of the newspapers. They wrote about them at the time.

Edit: As to the Oct. 7 incident - yes, the PAD has reacted quite the same way: one police officer was badly injured when run over by a car steered by a PAD member. 2 or 3 police officers were shot and badly injured by a PAD guard shooting out of the zoo in front of parliament, and one was stabbed in the chest with a flagpole. Countless other officers had lighter injuries.

Edited May 7, 2013 by nicknostitz

[hellodolly]

"Murders' by persons unknown, no shooters found or charged, death resulting from civil unrest (read terrorism) and the executive being charged? What sort of Kangaroo Courts system/lawlessness is this? So bring it on and whilst at it, charge Thaksin, for paying the mercenaries and giving the order to shoot, and burn Bangkok over the deaths of the soldiers and other collateral damage. That is no different to any terrorist organisation. DSI should be emptied out of these peasant-politically-motivated management and real people put there. What a complete mockery of actual justice.

Before leveling such accusations against the court system, i would suggest to go into the details of the individual cases for which the military was ruled having fired the bullets.

1) in the case of Pan Kumkong (and the of the 14 year old boy and the cabdriver - same incident) the prosecution has, in addition to witness and forensic evidence, presented to the court a video which has shown how the soldiers have shot at the van. There just was no other ruling possible

2) In the case of Channarong Ponsrila there were many eye witnesses, including foreign journalists and Thai journalists, forensic evidence, photos and videos of the incident from several angles, one which has shown bullets fired from the military side hitting a wall behind which protesters, and several journalists including me were taking cover. The argumentation of the military - that a shooter from Samliem Dindaeng has shot Channarong - would have made it necessary, from the position of Channarong and the angle of the entry wound, that the bullet made a sharp curve in midair, just before entering his stomach. Which is quite impossible.

3) Chatchai Chalao was shot a in front of at least a dozen journalists (including me) who accompanied a group of maybe 60 Red Shirts protesters walking towards a military line at Rama IV road. None of the protesters was armed and/or shot a firearm at the soldiers.It was more than clear that the only bullets fired were fired from the military lines 100 or so meters away.

4) in the case of Narongrit Sala, who was shot and died in front of me, the prosecutors have also presented a video which has shown a soldier firing bursts of automatic fire from his rifle at protesters (who were throwing stones and bottles at security forces on the street below) on the tollway an hour or so before the death of Narongrit (which injured one man who was shot in the head but survived. This video has quite clearly proven how careless and undisciplined the soldiers acted that day.

5) in the case of Thanuthat Assawasiri-mankong the court ruled that he died from an illness, but he was paralyzed after having been shot by soldiers. I have visited him in late 2010 or early 2011 in his apartment in Bon Gai. I have interviewed him and several witnesses of the incident.

In the two cases the courts ruled the cause of death as inconclusive, but did not explicitly absolve the military. It could simply not proven beyond reasonable doubt that the military fired the bullets that killed the people.

The court rulings may go against your and others believe system and political convictions, but this is about proof and evidence. Just because the cases were not highlighted much, and investigations were slowed down until after the change of government a new investigation commission was set up does not make the judgements political. What was 'political' was the pressure to finally bring the cases to court, after such a long time.

But they were judged according to the evidence, or in the inconclusive cases by lack of evidence. Which should also make it quite clear that the judgements were not political, as if that were to be true, all cases would have been ruled against the military. Which they weren't.

The only thing that is political here in this discussion is to attack how the courts have ruled in these cases.

Really? Thanks for your inside comments. As far as the 'topic' is concerned - the mockery of the system is the courts being asked to prosecute the executive for giving orders to military to clear the streets. That is the issue and considering the first shots fired were from Reds, ongoing before the military arrived, one would think the results as you have stated, would not have occurred had the Reds not seized the city. Collateral damage is never acceptable but before the court lay's waste to the democrat leadership and sets a precedent, they perhaps should be charging all including the red leaders. Thanks for your input.

He is so biased that if Thaksin said red was black he would believe it.

The only surprise in his ramble was that two of the cases were ruled inconclusive.

Jeez some day he will wake up and discover that if the army did every thing he claims the death toll would be around 1,000.

The only reason it would have been that low is because the red shirts would have deserted like rats from a sinking ship,

Why would the army need snipers with all the men they had they could have just opened fire on the crowds and a lot more people would have died.

Has he ever yet admitted that it was all started by the illegal activities of the red shirts and their refusal to listen to the police. Who Thaksin then pulled out of the situation. There by leaving no choice for the Government but to call in the Army. I say government to call in the Army because Thaksin as PM would have done the same. I really wonder that any one can say it was wrong to call in the army when the police refused to do their job.

[Thaddeus]

What makes it almost impossible for me here is that many seem to have internalized the notion that the Red Shirts are simply a paid mob of terrorists paid and commanded by Thaksin. This, i am sorry to say, is completely wrong..

Is it?

If it looks like a duck etc

If in the coming years you are proved right, I will take my hat off to you, if you are proved wrong however, give them a refund.

[Insight]

the little mob comes out in force now...

Yes, i will be busy. The reds are protesting, a yellow group has occupied a part of Sanam Luang, and i will switch between both camps. Care to join if you can tear yourself off the screen?

And if you want to find out about the different murders and shooting incidents the PAD committed in 2008, just go through the archives of the newspapers. They wrote about them at the time.

The irony behind using the word "mob".

I'm back in the UK. Flying back into Thailand to watch a much bigger mob force it to the brink (yet again), just for the sake of a forum pissing contest, would be somewhat silly IMO.

But you're the amazing force for good in all this, and we'll just never get it. Well done you.

[hellodolly]

First, thank you for your contribution to this thread. You obviously know a lot more of the ins-and-outs behind the red & yellow shirts than anyone else here. I'm just an amateur observer who has lived here since 1996 and followed Thai politics from whatever was available on various media.

I will say, however, that in your research & involvement you have plunged into the forest but have difficulty in seeing the wood for the trees. All the factions making up the red shirts that were involved in politics overtly or covertly seemed to come together in 2010 or maybe in 2009 which was the start of their violent actions. You avoid commenting on what was really behind the 2010 riots & protests - I find that hard to take given your insider knowledge.

You also seem to equate red shirt violence with yellow shirt violence which is also hard to take. While there were incidents of violence during the yellow shirt protests, they were pale in comparison to the red shirt version which included violent & lethal attacks in Bangkok, Chiang Mai & Udon Thani - separate to the main 2010 protests & riots.

Your description of yellow shirt & Democrat party people & supporters helping one another does not prove that the Democrat party (as an institution) backed the yellow shirts. The PTP + red shirt alliance is rather closer.

The DSI 'leaning'? This is a complete understatement of the workings of the DSI. Yes, it was used by the Abhisit government to initiate the prosecution of red shirts - I've already admitted that - and use the terrorist term, which, again I've disagreed with. It is now not just 'leaning' towards the PTP but is controlled by them. You have been less than forthcoming about the frivolous & blatantly political targeting of Abhisit. Automatic transfers are apparently illegal if made by Democrats.

Only in some respects is the military more powerful than the police. Day to day, the police are the real power in all provinces except for the southern-most provinces. Both are up to their eyes in trafficking and the poor handling of refugees. I'm pretty sure that if you asked the average Thai which they would give preference to for a complete overhaul, they would choose the police. The army (plus the other forces) would come second.

Having virtually complete control over the police (& the DSI) is a mockery of democracy. But the whole democracy question is not for this topic.

There are a lot of issues i will not comment on at this present time, and definitely not on an internet forum. As to what was behind the 2010 protests, the issue is so complex that i just do not have the time to go through this, and which would anyhow be deleted because it would derail the topic way too far from the original subject - being the murder charges.

As to yellow violence - there are many things that the public may not be aware off. The yellow barricades at government house were mined the same way the red shirt barricades were mined (but were not exploded in the end). The PAD in 2008 committed several murders as well, shot at innocent bystanders, injured some, shot at a journalist's van, etc.

The PAD was in the end never dispersed the same way the Red Shirts were (because the army refused to follow the orders of the then Somchai government). You can be quite sure that the PAD would have fought the security forces the same the Red Shirts have fought them in 2010. The had the weapons, and were more than ready to use them.

Do not forget that many members of both Red and Yellow have in previous confrontations between people and state been fighting together against the military. That counts for guards, and leaders. So, for example, were Suriyasai Katasila, former PAD spokesman, and Jatuporn Prompan very close friends from the days of May 92, were both were guard leaders. Both movements have many former student activists, and both have many former members of the Communist Party of Thailand.

Anyhow, i am sorry, i enjoyed the discussion with you, but i have to cut it short. I am quite tired, and over the next few days i will be quite busy.

Interesting I like the way he tries to compare the 10 or 11 days the PAD were illegally occupying Government property to the all most 2 months the red shirts did it. He also neglects to mention that the Yellow shirts did not try to negotiate in good faith the red shirts got what they asked for and then changed their mind. Or Thaksin changed it for them.

Before any Thaksin lover starts with it yes the yellow shirts should have been charged right away. Also the damage they did at Government house they should have paid for.

With the PTP red shirts in control of the situation and threatening the courts to come down with decisions that favor them and make the Democrat's look like the bad guys.

We will now get a chance to see double standards to the extreme.

Edit

It just occur to me why does he keep talking about the wrongs of the yellow shirts.

Does he not realize that has nothing to do with an illegal armed seizure of Down

Town Bangkok and refusal to bargain in good faith.

Edited May 7, 2013 by hellodolly

[nicknostitz]

Interesting I like the way he tries to compare the 10 or 11 days the PAD were illegally occupying Government property to the all most 2 months the red shirts did it. He also neglects to mention that the Yellow shirts did not try to negotiate in good faith the red shirts got what they asked for and then changed their mind. Or Thaksin changed it for them.

Before any Thaksin lover starts with it yes the yellow shirts should have been charged right away. Also the damage they did at Government house they should have paid for.

With the PTP red shirts in control of the situation and threatening the courts to come down with decisions that favor them and make the Democrat's look like the bad guys.

We will now get a chance to see double standards to the extreme.

The PAP rally of 2008, the occupation of Government House, and only at the latest stage the occupation of the airports, lasted 192 days. It wasn't just 10 or 11 days - it was months.

Educate yourself, please, before posting rubbish.

Edited May 7, 2013 by nicknostitz

[rubl]

"What is you point with this stupid questioning?"

To (try to) understand and to (try to) find the truth. Nothing more, nothing less.

[brd199]

It just occur to me why does he keep talking about the wrongs of the yellow shirts.

It's the but, but, but strategy of attempting to lessen the wrongdoings of his vaunted red shirts.

Edited May 7, 2013 by brd199

[nicknostitz]

"What is you point with this stupid questioning?"

To (try to) understand and to (try to) find the truth. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you want to try to find out the truth i would suggest to go to the rallies instead of stalking me.

[nicknostitz]

It just occur to me why does he keep talking about the wrongs of the yellow shirts.

It's the but, but, but strategy of attempting to lessen the wrongdoings of the vaunted red shirts.

Actually no - it's the concept of *context* - a matter that is sadly missing in most of the ... discussions....here.

[Thaddeus]

As to what i would feel if one of my family members would have been killed by a grenade of Red Shirt armed militants. Well, i had several very close calls when i was nearly blown up by some of those grenades myself,

To be killed by your own, that would be ironic.

You do understand irony don't you Nick, you being a writer you are bound to.

And you dodged the question, you didn't answer how you would feel if a close family member came to harm, instead you did the typical me me me me thing "yeah yeah me, I nearly got hurt"

Edited May 7, 2013 by sbk
no need for name calling

[hellodolly]

Interesting I like the way he tries to compare the 10 or 11 days the PAD were illegally occupying Government property to the all most 2 months the red shirts did it. He also neglects to mention that the Yellow shirts did not try to negotiate in good faith the red shirts got what they asked for and then changed their mind. Or Thaksin changed it for them.

Before any Thaksin lover starts with it yes the yellow shirts should have been charged right away. Also the damage they did at Government house they should have paid for.

With the PTP red shirts in control of the situation and threatening the courts to come down with decisions that favor them and make the Democrat's look like the bad guys.

We will now get a chance to see double standards to the extreme.

The PAP rally of 2008, the occupation of Government House, and only at the latest stage the occupation of the airports, lasted 192 days. It wasn't just 10 or 11 days - it was months.

Educate yourself, please, before posting rubbish.

Interesting I like the way he tries to compare the 10 or 11 days the PAD were illegally occupying Government property to the all most 2 months the red shirts did it. He also neglects to mention that the Yellow shirts did not try to negotiate in good faith the red shirts got what they asked for and then changed their mind. Or Thaksin changed it for them.

Before any Thaksin lover starts with it yes the yellow shirts should have been charged right away. Also the damage they did at Government house they should have paid for.

With the PTP red shirts in control of the situation and threatening the courts to come down with decisions that favor them and make the Democrat's look like the bad guys.

We will now get a chance to see double standards to the extreme.

The PAP rally of 2008, the occupation of Government House, and only at the latest stage the occupation of the airports, lasted 192 days. It wasn't just 10 or 11 days - it was months.

Educate yourself, please, before posting rubbish.

There you go again I never mentioned the legal part of the red shirts protest. But you for some reason choose to drag the legal part of the Yellow shirts protest in.

By the way I disagreed with the yellow shirts also. It wasn't until the red shirts started pouring blood all over that I realized they were not what they said they were and they went on and proved that I was correct in my decision to not support them.

Read what I print not what you think I printed.

[nicknostitz]

Interesting I like the way he tries to compare the 10 or 11 days the PAD were illegally occupying Government property to the all most 2 months the red shirts did it. He also neglects to mention that the Yellow shirts did not try to negotiate in good faith the red shirts got what they asked for and then changed their mind. Or Thaksin changed it for them.

Before any Thaksin lover starts with it yes the yellow shirts should have been charged right away. Also the damage they did at Government house they should have paid for.

With the PTP red shirts in control of the situation and threatening the courts to come down with decisions that favor them and make the Democrat's look like the bad guys.

We will now get a chance to see double standards to the extreme.

The PAP rally of 2008, the occupation of Government House, and only at the latest stage the occupation of the airports, lasted 192 days. It wasn't just 10 or 11 days - it was months.

Educate yourself, please, before posting rubbish.

There you go again I never mentioned the legal part of the red shirts protest. But you for some reason choose to drag the legal part of the Yellow shirts protest in.

By the way I disagreed with the yellow shirts also. It wasn't until the red shirts started pouring blood all over that I realized they were not what they said they were and they went on and proved that I was correct in my decision to not support them.

Read what I print not what you think I printed.

Excuse me, but what?

Legal part?

Would you mind to rephrase that in a somewhat coherent manner?

I have have no idea what you are trying to say here.

[brd199]

It just occur to me why does he keep talking about the wrongs of the yellow shirts.

It's the but, but, but strategy of attempting to lessen the wrongdoings of his vaunted red shirts.

Actually no - it's the concept of *context* - a matter that is sadly missing in most of the ... discussions....here.

The context being the yellows did wrong, so my red shirts can do even more wrong.

Edited May 7, 2013 by brd199

[nicknostitz]

It just occur to me why does he keep talking about the wrongs of the yellow shirts.

It's the but, but, but strategy of attempting to lessen the wrongdoings of his vaunted red shirts.

Actually no - it's the concept of *context* - a matter that is sadly missing in most of the ... discussions....here.

The context being the yellows did wrong, so my red shirts can do even more wrong.

No

[Insight]

"What is you point with this stupid questioning?"

To (try to) understand and to (try to) find the truth. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you want to try to find out the truth i would suggest to go to the rallies instead of stalking me.

Yes, leave Nick alone. He's not accountable to you, or any of the other lowly beings on this forum. (Hmmm who does that attitude reminds me of).

His lengthly pro-red observations/anti-yellow diatribes (and predications) should be taken completely as fact, simply because HE WAS THERE.

(And we we were not. Probably.)

[hellodolly]

It just occur to me why does he keep talking about the wrongs of the yellow shirts.

It's the but, but, but strategy of attempting to lessen the wrongdoings of the vaunted red shirts.

Actually no - it's the concept of *context* - a matter that is sadly missing in most of the ... discussions....here.

Do you really think the dead give a dam about the context. They were there in the context of receiving money I doubt if 5% of them even know what context is they just went and did what they were told to do.

Interesting some of them went to schools set up by red shirts to teach them what democracy was all about. Then shipped them off to join in the half witted armed effort to oust the government who was there by legal means. How is that for a context to be operating from? Do you understand that one.

You seem to be on and on and on about every thing except the illegal activities of the red shirts in the 2010 Legitimate rally turned into an armed barricaded seizure of Down Town Bangkok.

Edited May 7, 2013 by hellodolly

[sbk]

Members, do not take the baiting and refrain from using personal insults, thanks.

[Thait Spot]

Interesting I like the way he tries to compare the 10 or 11 days the PAD were illegally occupying Government property to the all most 2 months the red shirts did it. He also neglects to mention that the Yellow shirts did not try to negotiate in good faith the red shirts got what they asked for and then changed their mind. Or Thaksin changed it for them.

Before any Thaksin lover starts with it yes the yellow shirts should have been charged right away. Also the damage they did at Government house they should have paid for.

With the PTP red shirts in control of the situation and threatening the courts to come down with decisions that favor them and make the Democrat's look like the bad guys.

We will now get a chance to see double standards to the extreme.

The PAP rally of 2008, the occupation of Government House, and only at the latest stage the occupation of the airports, lasted 192 days. It wasn't just 10 or 11 days - it was months.

Educate yourself, please, before posting rubbish.

There you go again I never mentioned the legal part of the red shirts protest. But you for some reason choose to drag the legal part of the Yellow shirts protest in.

By the way I disagreed with the yellow shirts also. It wasn't until the red shirts started pouring blood all over that I realized they were not what they said they were and they went on and proved that I was correct in my decision to not support them.

Read what I print not what you think I printed.

Excuse me, but what?

Legal part?

Would you mind to rephrase that in a somewhat coherent manner?

I have have no idea what you are trying to say here.

"Would you mind to rephrase that in a somewhat coherent manner?"

Neither English nor journalese