Westerners: Another Thai Bubble?

[topt]

I agree with this post. I've been researching these 3D printers on eBay, and they are quite affordable. A guy in the U.S. made a working gun from one he bought online for $8k.

I am a big hobbyist and would love to buy one of these in the future. When I was a kid I used to tinker with remote control aircraft, but always had issues precisely fabricating the wings and body, etc. Opens the door to a lot of possibilities....

I'd think that 3D printer companies would be afraid to sell their 1st printer, which could potentially be their last, considering one could use it to produce as many more clones of the original 3D printer as needed.

After a while (quite a while I agree) I think the big money won't be in the hardware but in the consumables - the materials themselves, just as in ordinary printers and the ink and a host of other products.

Commercial models have been around for about 10 years and newer retail version prices are coming down a lot.

[HeavyDrinker]

Just look at the Thai healthcare system.

It's not free though is it?

[meom]

Just look at the Thai healthcare system.

It's not free though is it?

It doesn’t really matter whether it’s free or not when there’s no capability to deal with the additional numbers in the first place.

[HeavyDrinker]

I'd say there's plenty of staff in Thai hospitals to cater for aged retirees with the means to pay for it as one would think most have...

[AnotherOneAmerican]

I'd say there's plenty of staff in Thai hospitals to cater for aged retirees with the means to pay for it as one would think most have...

I've been in a Thai government hospital, didn't seem to be any shortage of staff.

Loads of doctors, trainee doctors, nurses, assistant nurses.

One staff between two or three patients as far as I could count.

Ever been to hospital in the EU, lucky to get one nurse on a ward.

[meom]

I'd say there's plenty of staff in Thai hospitals to cater for aged retirees with the means to pay for it as one would think most have...

Maybe you’re right and as long as Thais can get the same deal there’s no problem.

On the other hand once they start catering to the (richer) falang and neglect their own there’s probably people that will start to object.

[HeavyDrinker]

I'd say there's plenty of staff in Thai hospitals to cater for aged retirees with the means to pay for it as one would think most have...

Maybe you’re right and as long as Thais can get the same deal there’s no problem.

On the other hand once they start catering to the (richer) falang and neglect their own there’s probably people that will start to object.

Maybe but that's not being a burden is it?

[meom]

I personally think Thailand is going to make it harder for retiree's in the decades to come, and maybe to the point they will do away with retirement visa completely as a lot of other countries have done

Interesting. Why do you think they would want to do that? Retired expats are rather like long-term tourists in that they spend a lot of money that they (mostly) bring in from abroad, without having to work and so possibly take a job away from a Thai.

If I were in charge of a country I would be doing my utmost to attract as many long and short-term tourists or retired expats as I possibly could because every Baht they spend is a Baht earned by Thailand. There is no better sort of foreign person than a tourist/retiree for the balance of trade and general economic well-being of a country.

OK, one might argue that for their image abroad Thailand would prefer to have fewer partying single male tourists and more of the sedate temple-going sort of family visitor, but in practice I dont think they really care very much. Thais themselves are quite into loud drinking parties so I doubt they would be very bothered by tourists doing the same thing. Either way they all spend money and that is the bottom line. Besides which the older the tourist/expat the less likely he is to be a noisy party animal, and the more he will spend on hospital treatment and other services.

What makes you think that they spent a lot of money?

There’s a few that go through 200-300K a month but the majority of (western) expats seem to be penny pinching blue collar laborers that have nothing to add to Thai society and as they get older become more of a burden than a blessing.

On top of that most Thais simply don’t like us and they resent the fact that in a lot of cases our money is used to alleviate the status of lo-so Isaan girls.

Given the choice I think the Government would rather get rid of us instead of welcoming more retirees.

dont no what world you live in,but just this week ive just added many thousands of bht to the economy,dental work, shopping,petrol station,resturant,bars,new furniture,ladies renumeration,electric/water bill,true vision,laundry bill,pharmacy,and thats only half what most expats pay monthly here,some people really havent got a clue,propaly live in bognor regis, reading the telegraph.

Fair enough but in comparison to what the locals add to the economy we're not really that important.

[meom]

I'd say there's plenty of staff in Thai hospitals to cater for aged retirees with the means to pay for it as one would think most have...

Maybe you’re right and as long as Thais can get the same deal there’s no problem.

On the other hand once they start catering to the (richer) falang and neglect their own there’s probably people that will start to object.

Maybe but that's not being a burden is it?

It'll be a burden to the local people that can't get the heath care because it's given to the falang instead.

[SteeleJoe]

Fair enough but in comparison to what the locals add to the economy we're not really that important.

So you've gone from retires being a burden (yet oddly cited supporting poorer Thais as one reason they'd be unwelcome) to "not really that important" - which would seem to be at worst a neutral factor rather than a detrimental one...

[Naam]

I don't think it's a bubble as such, more a long-term trend. People can work online now to an extend barely conceivable ten years ago and even retirees have options afforded by the internet such as improved communication.

This may sound crazy, but what interests me the most at the moment is whether 3D printers are going to have a significant effect on global manufacturing trends in the future. I see a future in which more goods are manufactured this way and if this amounts to a 'manufacturing revolution' in somewhere like the US, then current projections about trade and the possibility of a growing Asia will be put into serious question. In this outcome I see a continuation of south-east Asian countries like Thailand remaining popular retirement destinations for future generations.

I agree with this post. I've been researching these 3D printers on eBay, and they are quite affordable. A guy in the U.S. made a working gun from one he bought online for $8k.

I am a big hobbyist and would love to buy one of these in the future. When I was a kid I used to tinker with remote control aircraft, but always had issues precisely fabricating the wings and body, etc. Opens the door to a lot of possibilities....

please don't tell me that you believe the rubbish "working gun".

[SteeleJoe]

It'll be a burden to the local people that can't get the heath care because it's given to the falang instead.

In what scenario would that happen? And these presumably poorer Thais will be the ones the government is looking out for? Keeping in mind that there are FAR more rich Thais in Thailand than there are rich foreigners - and that in any of the better hospitals here you will find FAR more Thais than foreigners - how will that factor into your scenario?

[meom]

Fair enough but in comparison to what the locals add to the economy we're not really that important.

So you've gone from retires being a burden (yet oddly cited supporting poorer Thais as one reason they'd be unwelcome) to "not really that important" - which would seem to be at worst a neutral factor rather than a detrimental one...

Yes economically I don’t think we are that important as a group and from a health care point of view we might become a burden.

[SteeleJoe]

Yes economically I don’t think we are that important as a group and from a health care point of view we might become a burden.

Gotya. Thanks.

[meom]

It'll be a burden to the local people that can't get the heath care because it's given to the falang instead.

In what scenario would that happen? And these presumably poorer Thais will be the ones the government is looking out for? Keeping in mind that there are FAR more rich Thais in Thailand than there are rich foreigners - and that in any of the better hospitals here you will find FAR more Thais than foreigners - how will that factor into your scenario?

I don't know if this will happen.

It could happen if the government tries to actively attract as many retireees as they can.

i don't think this will happen though and more likely they will make it more difficult instead of more easy to settle here.

[SteeleJoe]

I don't know if this will happen.

It could happen if the government tries to actively attract as many retireees as they can.

i don't think this will happen though and more likely they will make it more difficult instead of more easy to settle here.

I realize you don't know, that's why I spoke in the conditional and used "scenario".

The question remains, how would these retirees cause Thais to not get medical care as you suggested?

Edited May 9, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[meom]

I don't know if this will happen.

It could happen if the government tries to actively attract as many retireees as they can.

i don't think this will happen though and more likely they will make it more difficult instead of more easy to settle here.

I realize you don't know, that's why I spoke in the conditional and used "scenario".

The question remains, how would these retirees cause Thais to not get medical care as you suggested?

It depends a bit on the financial position of said retirees.

If there are sufficient (richer) retirees who are willing to pay more than what health care providers can earn catering to Thais then wouldn’t

these health care providers give preference to the richer retirees?

I imagine they would which is ok provided that there are enough providers left to cater to the rest.

[SteeleJoe]

It depends a bit on the financial position of said retirees.

If there are sufficient (richer) retirees who are willing to pay more than what health care providers can earn catering to Thais then wouldn’t

these health care providers give preference to the richer retirees?

I imagine they would which is ok provided that there are enough providers left to cater to the rest.

So do you mean that in private and relatively more expensive places, rich(er) retirees would cause the Thais who went to the same places would be denied care?

I still can't see how that would happen. There will never be more rich foreign retirees than there are equally or more rich Thais. I wouldn't think there will ever be insufficient private medical care to meet the customer's needs (regardless of nationality) - market forces would ensure that, I should think; hence the Thai government's efforts to perpetuate and promote so called "medical tourism".

[meom]

It depends a bit on the financial position of said retirees.

If there are sufficient (richer) retirees who are willing to pay more than what health care providers can earn catering to Thais then wouldn’t

these health care providers give preference to the richer retirees?

I imagine they would which is ok provided that there are enough providers left to cater to the rest.

So do you mean that in private and relatively more expensive places, rich(er) retirees would cause the Thais who went to the same places would be denied care?

I still can't see how that would happen. There will never be more rich foreign retirees than there are equally or more rich Thais. I wouldn't think there will ever be insufficient private medical care to meet the customer's needs (regardless of nationality) - market forces would ensure that, I should think; hence the Thai government's efforts to perpetuate and promote so called "medical tourism".

No I not mean like that.

For example if you're a doctor or nurse and you can choose, either work in a government hospital or in a private more expansive place you probably choose for the more expansive private place because it'll pay more.

I have no problem with that but I am not sure if there are a sufficient number of doctors/nurses left who will attend to the other work.

[MrHammer]

Fair question, Soutpeel. I am under that impression because of the dismal state of the economy in western countries, and constantly seeing articles about the best places to retire -- these things leading westerners to try their lot in Asia, and particularly Thailand.

Also, the teaching market is overly competitive given the pay and working conditions, in my humble opinion. Ask any teacher (despite whatever opinion of them you might have), the employment markets are saturated with westerns to the extent that salaries haven't risen in 15 years or so, and now it's nearly impossible to find a 12 month contract as well.

In other words, though my observation is perhaps anecdotal and somewhat subjective, I believe it's a fair point for discussion. Humor me, if you will. If not, carry on. No harm done.

Why are you only relating your question to people who have come from western countries...are people who come to live in Thailand from African, India, China, Korea etc not worthy of being called "expats" as well as one would suspect the number of "expats" coming to live in Thailand from these countries far exceeds the number of "white western middle aged men" and "just reached puberty westerners" on a gap year teaching English in Thailand.

So now I understand your question better...if you are referring to a bubble of "white western middle aged men" coming to live in Thailand...I dont believe this bubble exists, and if such a bubble does exist..one suspects it will burst very quickly if the Thai goverment starts introducing mandatory health insurance for alien residents in Thailand certainly in the "white western middle aged men" catagory if they come from the nanny states in the west..

I don't think there are all that many Asian foreigners that fall in the expat category.

I know a few Japanese men operating a 'mia noi' household in Thailand, but they just visit as tourists, and keep their main family and home in Japan.

China, plenty of cheap young women available in China, Thailand is usually a business or holiday trip.

It's only the western world that lacks for cheap available young women, Asian countries have plenty of their their own.

And finally, how would 'mandatory health insurance' not affect them?

I can see you don't visit Fuji Supermarket often. If you did, you'd see the lovely Japanese expat housewives mulling about, with plenty of Japanese salarymen as well. In case you didn't know, the Japanese have a much higher social ranking in Thailand than westerners. And if you don't think there is a HUGE ladies market for the Japanese, you clearly haven't been to Thong Lor and Phrom Phong.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

What makes you think that they spent a lot of money?

There’s a few that go through 200-300K a month but the majority of (western) expats seem to be penny pinching blue collar laborers that have nothing to add to Thai society and as they get older become more of a burden than a blessing.

I was referring to their expenditure as a group not as individuals. And a retired expat who only spends a few hundred Baht a day all told is still worth having as every single Baht of it will normally be coming from foreign currency. And I dont see many expats getting free health care in my local clinics and hospitals here. They pay, just like I do.

[meom]

What makes you think that they spent a lot of money?

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Theres a few that go through 200-300K a month but the majority of (western) expats seem to be penny pinching blue collar laborers that have nothing to add to Thai society and as they get older become more of a burden than a blessing.

I was referring to their expenditure as a group not as individuals. And a retired expat who only spends a few hundred Baht a day all told is still worth having as every single Baht of it will normally be coming from foreign currency. And I dont see many expats getting free health care in my local clinics and hospitals here. They pay, just like I do.

You're right from a financial pov but money isn't everything.

Retiring to Thailand is like hooking up with a freelance girl; if she likes you, she likes your money and if she doesn't like you, she doesn't like your money.

My impression, which could be completely wrong, is that the Thais increasingly don't need or like our money.

[SteeleJoe]

It depends a bit on the financial position of said retirees.

If there are sufficient (richer) retirees who are willing to pay more than what health care providers can earn catering to Thais then wouldn’t

these health care providers give preference to the richer retirees?

I imagine they would which is ok provided that there are enough providers left to cater to the rest.

So do you mean that in private and relatively more expensive places, rich(er) retirees would cause the Thais who went to the same places would be denied care?

I still can't see how that would happen. There will never be more rich foreign retirees than there are equally or more rich Thais. I wouldn't think there will ever be insufficient private medical care to meet the customer's needs (regardless of nationality) - market forces would ensure that, I should think; hence the Thai government's efforts to perpetuate and promote so called "medical tourism".

No I not mean like that.

For example if you're a doctor or nurse and you can choose, either work in a government hospital or in a private more expansive place you probably choose for the more expansive private place because it'll pay more.

I have no problem with that but I am not sure if there are a sufficient number of doctors/nurses left who will attend to the other work.

OK, thanks.

[SteeleJoe]

Fair question, Soutpeel. I am under that impression because of the dismal state of the economy in western countries, and constantly seeing articles about the best places to retire -- these things leading westerners to try their lot in Asia, and particularly Thailand.

Also, the teaching market is overly competitive given the pay and working conditions, in my humble opinion. Ask any teacher (despite whatever opinion of them you might have), the employment markets are saturated with westerns to the extent that salaries haven't risen in 15 years or so, and now it's nearly impossible to find a 12 month contract as well.

In other words, though my observation is perhaps anecdotal and somewhat subjective, I believe it's a fair point for discussion. Humor me, if you will. If not, carry on. No harm done.

Why are you only relating your question to people who have come from western countries...are people who come to live in Thailand from African, India, China, Korea etc not worthy of being called "expats" as well as one would suspect the number of "expats" coming to live in Thailand from these countries far exceeds the number of "white western middle aged men" and "just reached puberty westerners" on a gap year teaching English in Thailand.

So now I understand your question better...if you are referring to a bubble of "white western middle aged men" coming to live in Thailand...I dont believe this bubble exists, and if such a bubble does exist..one suspects it will burst very quickly if the Thai goverment starts introducing mandatory health insurance for alien residents in Thailand certainly in the "white western middle aged men" catagory if they come from the nanny states in the west..

I don't think there are all that many Asian foreigners that fall in the expat category.

I know a few Japanese men operating a 'mia noi' household in Thailand, but they just visit as tourists, and keep their main family and home in Japan.

China, plenty of cheap young women available in China, Thailand is usually a business or holiday trip.

It's only the western world that lacks for cheap available young women, Asian countries have plenty of their their own.

And finally, how would 'mandatory health insurance' not affect them?

I can see you don't visit Fuji Supermarket often. If you did, you'd see the lovely Japanese expat housewives mulling about, with plenty of Japanese salarymen as well. In case you didn't know, the Japanese have a much higher social ranking in Thailand than westerners. And if you don't think there is a HUGE ladies market for the Japanese, you clearly haven't been to Thong Lor and Phrom Phong.

Is Thaniya not going on anymore?

The era when Japanese expats execs were really making a big impact may have passed but there are still plenty here as well as (relatively) lower income types. I believe the are only 2 or 3 countries with a larger Japanese expatriate community and I THINK it used to be even higher.

The idea that the Japanese in Thailand are limited to those who come to visit Mia Nois is preposterous. Plenty of whole families are here (regardless if the father has a Thai mistress or not).

[RubbaJohnny]

The numbers willing and allowed in will reflect their origins.

There fore the desireability and cost benfit of living here will be influenced by local issues visas,cost of living ,health insurance and more likely comparison to homeland.

If you have alump sum and a pension sufficient to live anywhere would you choose here? For every minus I find more reasons to stay.

For those jaded with Siam try a few days as ido each year in London Paris SF or KL and even bangkok seems an improvement.

For those of lucky enough not to need the city Thailand has a wonderfull variety of scenery,cultures and climates to enjoy.Friendly folk,lovely food availble everywhere for pennies and of course Sanook fill your boots.

A concern over exchange rates is amplified by lack of vote land tenure or visas longer than a few months (15?)

Fortunately the locals are either tolerant or indifferent and treated better than foreigners in many more racist palces like OZ USA or UK.

I think anyone who can afford the immigration hurdles 400k or 66k per month will be ok.

Coming to Thailand hoping to earn that level competing with locals will require special skills or capital.

While poorly paid at least qualified teachers know there will be demand until Siam is fluent.

However the real concern will be compulsary international medical insurance for over 60s.

Most companies will reject even healthy 70 year olds and cannot see foreign providers will be acceptable for long term residents at affordable prices.There is a niche here for thai insurers.

Another issue for UK sate pensioners is there entitlement level is frozen which may seem trivial today but imagine paying todays prices anywhere with your income of 1993.Tis is same for Oz but not if you move to the Philipinnes.

Edited May 9, 2013 by RubbaJohnny