Retirement - New Rules For Renting?

[mike_rad]

I presume this is for a retirement extension, are other people getting the same sillyness on marriage as well?

Yes, retirement; have no idea about the other.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

Don't know for sure but the impression I get is that owners have an easier run.

I have never had the slightest trouble as a tenant doing a retirement extension based on a deposit. I do have a 1-year contract for my condo but I always have the feeling that they are much more impressed by my bank book than by my other documents.

[JLCrab]

For years I only provided the monthly rent receipt from the well-known hotel where I rented a serviced apartment for retirement extension at KK. Last year I rented a house and the owner and I upon my moving in went to the IMM office and registered me as an alien renter.

When several months later I next went for my retirement extension I showed the registration, rent receipt, and paid utility bill. Not sufficient. I was asked to show the one-year lease and the front page of the owner's blue book. Luckily I was able to get that in short order and the extension was then easily granted.

[tropo]

What works out nicely is to ask them to give you a copy of the regulation for your lawyer, as you have no clue what it is all about.

I may have to do that but I don't rate my chances as that guy, the boss it seems, would not like to lose face.

>>They want paper, give them paper.

Tried that today at my place. I asked the woman at reception but she couldn't understand what I meant by contract. She suggested writing out another receipt but I said that wouldn't do. When I drew an A4 sheet of paper in the air she looked totally confused. She kept saying 1, 2 or 6 months up to you how long to stay. They obviously have never had such a request.

I'll sleep on it over the weekend but the way I'm feeling right now I may just take it as a sign to move on and find another country in which to live and spend my money.

Thanks to all who replied.

Standard Thai rental contracts are one page. I'm pretty sure you'll be able to purchase the English versions at the book store in tear off pad form. Just fill one out and ask the landlord to sign it.

I assumed a rental contract was a normal requirement and have always used that for extensions.

Edited May 10, 2013 by tropo

[chiang mai]

Immigration wanted to see my lease agreement a year ago when I extended my O-A visa, oddly, this year they didn't ask for it.

[billaaa777]

interesting, i have been in the same house for 12 years and never received a receipt or had a contract, lt alone been asked to show one.

This is what makes me think it's a new regulation - the fact that the young lady looked at the receipt, clearly showing their stamp plus rent and deposit paid as well as power and water meter readings, yet that wasn't enough and then asked for a rental contract.

For instance I have see many time farangs getting refused any service at all because they were dressed in a cut off t-shirt.

Interested thread, I had my retirement Visa renewed this week and something happened related to this discussion that left me a little confused while I was there.

I have lived here 10 years and have never been asked if I rent or own. I get a letter from my embassy for my income and I use the same UBC receipt for my address that I have presented for the past 3 years or so. I keep it in my Passport so I do not forget it.

My application went through perfectly, like it always does. But, a guy sat down next to me at the 2^nd table after you pay and submit your paperwork and the officer asked him if he rented or owned. He said he rented, and the officer told him he needed the rental contract.

The same officer did not ask me anything. I told the guy to just turn in a UBC or internet receipt and that would work. When I said that the officer did not say anything, but after the guy left he told me the receipt “No Work”, he must have rental contract.

That is why I was confused, I did not understand the difference and I thought it was because I been here for so long. But, I know realize there was a difference, and it was in appearance. Before I went to immigration I showered and saved and wore a nice shirt and pair of paints.

That guy did not look like he had shaved in days and his hair looked terrible. I am not sure why they gave him a hard time, and they did not ask me a single question. But, trying to look presentable just might go a long way at immigration now a days.

[NancyL]

At CM Immigration they're not consistent in asking people for rental contracts and/or utility bills. It's been suggested that if they can't remember seeing you around the office, then they'll ask for this proof of residence to make sure you're entitled to do your extension in CM (as if someone would actually choose this office voluntarily if they had the ability to go somewhere else!). They almost always ask Hubby about proof of residence, but not me. I'm the one who goes to the office to do 90 day reports and our timing isn't in sync, which means I'm there 8 times a year! I think they recognize me.

[Mobi]

As with so many things in Thailand, we can sort of see where they are coming from, but get a bit flummoxed at the implementation of their intentions.

It seems logical that immigration should require reasonable ‘proof of residence’ from farangs who wish to live in Thailand in retirement, but surely they must understand that not everyone will live in a leased property or be able to produce a lease on demand.

Suppose you live with a friend, or a family free of charge? Does that mean you are not allowed to retire here?

Even in the west, where institutions such as banks are required by law to obtain ‘proof of residence’,a couple of utility bills or similar in your name is considered adequate proof.

From memory, banks usually provide two categories of documents that would be acceptable and you must provide one from each list.

Why can’t immigration do something similar and adapt the list to the circumstances?

Indeed a few years back they did start to ask for utility bills or other bills with the applicants address on as proof of residence. They now seem to have gone one step further, which for some may be an unfair step too far.

Tropo’s suggestion of drawing up your own lease is a good one. You might want to look at the following site which has a number of downloadable Thai lease drafts that you could use.

http://www.samuiforsale.com/category/downloads.html

My guess is that this lease requirement will quietly disappear in a few months when it is brought home to them how silly it is, but who can say for sure? Every Immigration dept is a law unto itself, especially where retirement visa extensions are concerned, as they can approve or reject them locally.

I hate to say this,but if you really want to stay here and avoid thy hassle and considerable expense of uprooting your life moving on, then there are any number of visa agencies that can ‘ease the path’ for you and get your extension renewed for a fee.

There are even some dubious farangs who hang around immigration who would no doubt assist you for a fee.

The decision is yours.

Good luck

Mobi

[Maestro]

I have deleted an unintelligible post.

[mike_rad]

Tropo thanks for that

Edited May 11, 2013 by mike_rad

[mike_rad]

As with so many things in Thailand, we can sort of see where they are coming from, but get a bit flummoxed at the implementation of their intentions.

It seems logical that immigration should require reasonable ‘proof of residence’ from farangs who wish to live in Thailand in retirement, but surely they must understand that not everyone will live in a leased property or be able to produce a lease on demand.

Suppose you live with a friend, or a family free of charge? Does that mean you are not allowed to retire here?

Even in the west, where institutions such as banks are required by law to obtain ‘proof of residence’,a couple of utility bills or similar in your name is considered adequate proof.

From memory, banks usually provide two categories of documents that would be acceptable and you must provide one from each list.

Why can’t immigration do something similar and adapt the list to the circumstances?

Indeed a few years back they did start to ask for utility bills or other bills with the applicants address on as proof of residence. They now seem to have gone one step further, which for some may be an unfair step too far.

Tropo’s suggestion of drawing up your own lease is a good one. You might want to look at the following site which has a number of downloadable Thai lease drafts that you could use.

http://www.samuiforsale.com/category/downloads.html

My guess is that this lease requirement will quietly disappear in a few months when it is brought home to them how silly it is, but who can say for sure? Every Immigration dept is a law unto itself, especially where retirement visa extensions are concerned, as they can approve or reject them locally.

I hate to say this,but if you really want to stay here and avoid thy hassle and considerable expense of uprooting your life moving on, then there are any number of visa agencies that can ‘ease the path’ for you and get your extension renewed for a fee.

There are even some dubious farangs who hang around immigration who would no doubt assist you for a fee.

The decision is yours.

Good luck

Mobi

Thanks for that link, something to work with.

[chiang mai]

At CM Immigration they're not consistent in asking people for rental contracts and/or utility bills. It's been suggested that if they can't remember seeing you around the office, then they'll ask for this proof of residence to make sure you're entitled to do your extension in CM (as if someone would actually choose this office voluntarily if they had the ability to go somewhere else!). They almost always ask Hubby about proof of residence, but not me. I'm the one who goes to the office to do 90 day reports and our timing isn't in sync, which means I'm there 8 times a year! I think they recognize me.

I agree Nancy, I think we're in the same boat in that respect.

[marstons]

you can buy standard rent agreement forms from most office supply shops, I bought mine at the place in the Home Works area, landlord, landlady just filled in the gaps and signed it. Did my extension less than 2 weeks ago in Jontiem and no such agreement was asked for, done on income. Maybe a conspiracy theory but they seem to be pushing people down non legitimate routes which line there pockets.

[tropo]

Tropo thanks for that

Those are the contracts my Italian landlord uses. They are very basic but do the trick as I've done 2 extensions with it already. If you can't find them I'll ask my landlord where he got them.

[tropo]

you can buy standard rent agreement forms from most office supply shops, I bought mine at the place in the Home Works area, landlord, landlady just filled in the gaps and signed it. Did my extension less than 2 weeks ago in Jontiem and no such agreement was asked for, done on income. Maybe a conspiracy theory but they seem to be pushing people down non legitimate routes which line there pockets.

There you go. I thought you'd be able to pick these up at an office/stationary supply store. Do you mean Office Works, next to Home Works?

Edited May 11, 2013 by tropo

[OJAS]

How are Pattayan retirees married to Thai nationals and living in houses legally owned by their wives (as in my case) supposed to comply with this new requirement? Are they really, in effect, now expected to produce some formal tenancy agreement with their tiiraks as proof of their address at retirement annual extension of stay time?

If so, then the usufruct contract document included in Mobi’s helpful link at post #38 might best fit the bill, although it still looks far from ideal in a number of respects. Furthermore, according to Wikipedia, such a contract would need to be registered with the local Land Registry office before it could come into effect. This, of course, is a process which would doubtless prove easier said than done.

In particular, even though Thai translations of the key clauses are supposedly downloadable, it would not surprise me in the slightest were a particular Land Registry office still to insist on a certified translation. In addition they would probably require this to be endorsed by the MFA (necessitating a trip to Bangkok, of course), plus an Embassy residency letter (& certified Thai translation of same) on top for good measure.

However, are we absolutely certain that we are here merely talking about yet another silly local rule dreamt up by Jomtien with the sole aim of causing the maximum inconvenience and hassle to their punters, as distinct from a new Immigration Bureau HQ directive which is being rolled out nationally?

To date, my local immigration office (Maptaput) have merely been content with copies of my wife’s blue house book as evidence of my address for annual extension of stay purposes (and they didn’t even ask for this last time). Perhaps surprisingly, they have not also asked for our KR2 or KR3 marriage documents to enable them to join up the dots!

Be that as it may, my fingers are now firmly crossed in the light of this particular thread that my wife’s blue house book will, if necessary, still fit the bill as regards proof of address at Maptaput when I apply for my next retirement extension of stay in July…

[Mario2008]

When married they assume you live with your wife, so showing you are married and the wife's household book should be enough. If not the house owner or living elsewhere, a rental contract in wife's name should also do.

[mike_rad]

It's not clear at this stage if it's a new requirement. Apparently I'm to first to be hit with it. We'll have to wait and see if it becomes standard practise or if it's simply that particular officer's idea to make things more difficult.

[gk10002000]

Very interesting thread here. I am able to retire in Thailand, I just haven't decided to do it yet. I am a US citizen and my engineering work keeps my mind fresh. I keep looking at all the retirement rules and regulations for Thailand, how I might or might not keep my US presence as far as banking, Retirement Accounts and the USA address that the banks really prefer, health insurance etc. In the USA proof of residency varies a bit from state to state. Florida, my state recently knuckled under to the TSA "Gold Star" rules. When renewing my driver's license I now had to bring in my proof of ID, and my proof of citizenship then two recent bills with my address on them. I don't get a single bill by paper mail. My cell phone, medical insurance, car insurance is all paid online. Paper printouts are possible but tedious. Some of those are NOT monthly bills so it was only by chance I brought enough bills to the Department of Motor Vehicles that were one month recent enough for them to accept. My "rent" is paid without a receipt and I do not have a contract. Sometimes I pay by check, sometimes I just deposit the money in my landlord's account when I am the same bank office we both use. I don't get utility bills because all those costs are included in my rent. Off topic but the "gold star" goes on ones driver's license. TSA has a rule that by 2014 if you don't have one, you can't use your state issues ID to get into any federal building or on any airplane. You would have to use a passport. So they are quietly making a big potential mess for millions of people. I pointed out to the Motor Vehicle licensing folks that a gold star has a very bad connotation if anybody remembers the World War 2 nazi gold star they forced jews to wear. Yest that was the star of david and not the same sided star the TSA requires but it is called a Gold Star never the less.

Looking ahead to Thailand and having been there a dozen times, I have only had one rental aggreement for one place I rented for over one month. All the other places had a weekly or monthly rate and I got a paid receipt. Bill-wise, I use a pre-paid cell phone overseas and buy minutes when I need them. I doubt I would stay in the same place in Thailand year after year so I see a lease as an issue, if such a thing really is required. Besides, I am always very leery of long term leases. Owners change, neighbors get noisey and out of control, etc.

Thailand's 90 day constant reporting even for a retirement visa is nutty. I think it generates tons of paperwork and extra work and doesn't return much value. A once a year check should be more than adequate. I hate paperwork and doing the same thing every 90 days is excessive. The Embassy money letter if income is used is only gotten once a year. So what good does reporting and generating at least 14 pages of paper every 90 days accomplish?

[NancyL]

When married they assume you live with your wife, so showing you are married and the wife's household book should be enough. If not the house owner or living elsewhere, a rental contract in wife's name should also do.

Our lease agreement is in my name only -- I think Hubby wasn't available at the time of signature. He's shown the original of this lease at CM Immigration with no problems, no need for a marriage license, although I think he may have showed them a copy of the photo page from my passport. But we're both Americans, same last name, married for decades and probably look like it!

[mike_rad]

It's not clear at this stage if it's a new requirement. Apparently I'm to first to be hit with it. We'll have to wait and see if it becomes standard practise or if it's simply that particular officer's idea to make things more difficult.

As I said, I was reluctant to return to Jomtien office so a few days ago I spoke to an agent, a farang, and when I told him the situation he asked, "Was it that guy with the ... ?" Yes I said that's him. To which he replied, "He's a real so and so!" Seems others have had problems with this guy also.

Now he could be just saying that to drum up business but overall I'd have to say that it's looking more and more like this: There is no new rule/requirement and it's just this particular officer who's decided he wants to lay a power trip on tenants.

[SaintLouisBlues]

This entire thread has served to convince me that using an immigration lawyer to handle all the paperwork all the time is the way I'll continue to go.