Cancel Us Citizenship

[givenall]

I have a fried Thai friend who has Thai and US (naturalized) citizenship. How can he cancel his US citizenship legally and return his passport

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[Jingthing]

Don't know the details. Obviously the embassy might be a place to inquire. However, I do know that the USA has issues with citizens cancelling their citizenship for TAX purposes. So if there are US taxation issues, it could potentially be messy.

I'm sure he has his reasons but if he's into travel, the USA passport is a great one (excepting a few forbidden countries).

Edited May 21, 2013 by Jingthing

[NeverSure]

Unless someone was a really high earner and didn't ever want to set foot in the US again, and preferred to gain citizenship in a country which has low taxes, I can't imagine doing it. There are too many benefits to being able to land on US soil at will. It's also a great passport to have.

Would I really want to live in Singapore which is so tiny, and where I feel like a stranger, when the US is so big and varied in choices of living area, costs, and lifestyle? The US is also a cheap place to live. Even downtown NYC is much cheaper than Singapore or London or Sydney or Melbourne or Paris or Geneva or Tokyo or Oslo...

No city in the US is on the list of the ten most expensive cities in the world. Link. People forget that it isn't all about income and capital gains taxes. It's about opportunity and overall costs, too.

That said, if your friend wants to do it, he makes application and settles up with the IRS. That settlement isn't unfair, but they want to collect any taxes due before they'll release citizenship.

That is a huge decision.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Read through this stuff: http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html

Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship

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A. THE IMMIGRATION & NATIONALITY ACT

Section 349(a)(5) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) (8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(5)) is the section of law governing the right of a United States citizen to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship. That section of law provides for the loss of nationality by voluntarily

"(5) making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States in a foreign state , in such form as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State" (emphasis added).

B. ELEMENTS OF RENUNCIATION

A person wishing to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship must voluntarily and with intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship:

appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer,

in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); and

sign an oath of renunciation

Renunciations that do not meet the conditions described above have no legal effect. Because of the provisions of Section 349(a)(5), U.S. citizens cannot effectively renounce their citizenship by mail, through an agent, or while in the United States. In fact, U.S. courts have held certain attempts to renounce U.S. citizenship to be ineffective on a variety of grounds, as discussed below.

C. REQUIREMENT - RENOUNCE ALL RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES

A person seeking to renounce U.S. citizenship must renounce all the rights and privileges associated with such citizenships. In the case of Colon v. U.S. Department of State , 2 F.Supp.2d 43 (1998), the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia rejected Colon’s petition for a writ of mandamus directing the Secretary of State to approve a Certificate of Loss of Nationality in the case because he wanted to retain the right to live in the United States while claiming he was not a U.S. citizen.

D. DUAL NATIONALITY / STATELESSNESS

Persons intending to renounce U.S. citizenship should be aware that, unless they already possess a foreign nationality, they may be rendered stateless and, thus, lack the protection of any government. They may also have difficulty traveling as they may not be entitled to a passport from any country. Even if not stateless, former U.S. citizens would still be required to obtain a visa to travel to the United States, or show that they are eligible for admission pursuant to the terms of the Visa Waiver Pilot Program (VWPP). Nonetheless, renunciation of U.S. citizenship may not prevent a foreign country from deporting that individual to the United States in some non-citizen status.

E. TAX & MILITARY OBLIGATIONS /NO ESCAPE FROM PROSECUTION

Persons who wish to renounce U.S. citizenship should be aware of the fact that renunciation of U.S. citizenship may have no affect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations (contact the Internal Revenue Service or U.S. Selective Service for more information). In addition, the act of renouncing U.S. citizenship does not allow persons to avoid possible prosecution for crimes which they may have committed in the United States, or escape the repayment of financial obligations previously incurred in the United States or incurred as United States citizens abroad.

F. RENUNCIATION FOR MINOR CHILDREN/INCOMPETENTS

Citizenship is a status that is personal to the U.S. citizen. Therefore, parents may not renounce the citizenship of their minor children. Similarly, parents/legal guardians may not renounce the citizenship of individuals who are mentally incompetent. Minors seeking to renounce their U.S. citizenship must demonstrate to a consular officer that they are acting voluntarily and that they fully understand the implications/consequences attendant to the renunciation of U.S. citizenship.

G. IRREVOCABILITY OF RENUNCIATION

Finally, those contemplating a renunciation of U.S. citizenship should understand that the act is irrevocable, except as provided in section 351 of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1483), and cannot be canceled or set aside absent successful administrative or judicial appeal. (Section 351( of the INA provides that an applicant who renounced his or her U.S. citizenship before the age of eighteen can have that citizenship reinstated if he or she makes that desire known to the Department of State within six months after attaining the age of eighteen. See also Title 22, Code of Federal Regulations, section 50.20).

Renunciation is the most unequivocal way in which a person can manifest an intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship. Please consider the effects of renouncing U.S. citizenship, described above, before taking this serious and irrevocable action. If you have any further questions regarding this matter, please contact:

Express Mail:

Director

Office of Legal Affairs (CA/OCS/L)

Overseas Citizens Services

Bureau of Consular Affairs

U.S. Department of State

4th Floor

2100 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.

Washington, D.C. 20037

Phone: 202-736-9110

Fax: 202-736-9111

Regular Mail

Director

Office of Legal Affairs (CA/OCS/L)

Overseas Citizens Services

Bureau of Consular Affairs

U.S. Department of State

SA-29, 4th Floor

Washington, D.C. 20520

01/10/2013

[Pib]

Go to the U.S. Embassy and get the details.....details which will also include the fine print. LIke NeverSure said I can't image someone wanting to give up their U.S. citizenship and the associated benefits unless they are trying to avoid something like taxes owed. If it's a concern over dual citizenship and maybe plenty of misinformation/beliefs about dual citizenship, dual citizenship is perfectly legal in Thailand and the U.S.,, although like most countries neither Thailand or the U.S. encourage it...but it's perfectly legal. Even my Thai wife holds dual Thai and U.S. citizenship.

[Time Traveller]

Don't know the details. Obviously the embassy might be a place to inquire. However, I do know that the USA has issues with citizens cancelling their citizenship for TAX purposes. So if there are US taxation issues, it could potentially be messy.

No they don't. Every person that renounces citizenship - for what ever reason - will be checked for taxation liability before it's finally renounced.

[kurtmartens]

Unless someone was a really high earner and didn't ever want to set foot in the US again, and preferred to gain citizenship in a country which has low taxes, I can't imagine doing it. There are too many benefits to being able to land on US soil at will. It's also a great passport to have.

Would I really want to live in Singapore which is so tiny, and where I feel like a stranger, when the US is so big and varied in choices of living area, costs, and lifestyle? The US is also a cheap place to live. Even downtown NYC is much cheaper than Singapore or London or Sydney or Melbourne or Paris or Geneva or Tokyo or Oslo...

No city in the US is on the list of the ten most expensive cities in the world. Link. People forget that it isn't all about income and capital gains taxes. It's about opportunity and overall costs, too.

That said, if your friend wants to do it, he makes application and settles up with the IRS. That settlement isn't unfair, but they want to collect any taxes due before they'll release citizenship.

That is a huge decision.

Nothing wrong with a Singapore passport. Accepted in as many countries as a US Passport and can land in the US with "visa on arrival" status. And more importantly, no world wide tax to deal with. That is the biggest gripe I have and my friends all have as expats. World wide tax. Get rid of world wide tax and less people would be looking to ditch their citizenship or try to hide money IMO.

[patekatek]

I have to agree with Neversure, Pib, and others regarding abandoning your USA citizenship. I stayed in the USA long enough for my wife to obtain her USA citizenship for the same reasons as everyone else. When I qualify for Medicare in about 5 years, we may move back there and already having her passport and being a citizen makes everything so much easier. A decision not to be taken lightly.

[NanLaew]

Unless someone was a really high earner and didn't ever want to set foot in the US again, and preferred to gain citizenship in a country which has low taxes, I can't imagine doing it. There are too many benefits to being able to land on US soil at will. It's also a great passport to have.

Would I really want to live in Singapore which is so tiny, and where I feel like a stranger, when the US is so big and varied in choices of living area, costs, and lifestyle? The US is also a cheap place to live. Even downtown NYC is much cheaper than Singapore or London or Sydney or Melbourne or Paris or Geneva or Tokyo or Oslo...

No city in the US is on the list of the ten most expensive cities in the world. Link. People forget that it isn't all about income and capital gains taxes. It's about opportunity and overall costs, too.

That said, if your friend wants to do it, he makes application and settles up with the IRS. That settlement isn't unfair, but they want to collect any taxes due before they'll release citizenship.

That is a huge decision.

Nothing wrong with a Singapore passport. Accepted in as many countries as a US Passport and can land in the US with "visa on arrival" status. And more importantly, no world wide tax to deal with. That is the biggest gripe I have and my friends all have as expats. World wide tax. Get rid of world wide tax and less people would be looking to ditch their citizenship or try to hide money IMO.

British friend of mine married and living in Singapore for many years chose a Singapore passport for his daughter when she was an infant as he saw that as the 'path of least resistance' as she grew up and went to school there. Now she has been offered a place at University in England and he is ruing the day he opted against a UK passport with the rather onerous UK student visa requirements. Having said that, I have no idea if he explored dual-citizenship (and concurrent UK passport) for her. Maybe Singapore doesn't permit that?

What is "world wide tax" btw?

[ubonjoe]

Giving up US citizenship would be a decision that would require a lot of thought and consideration of all repercussions it could cause.

A big one to consider is any future trips to the US would require a visa. I am not saying the US would be vindictive but I suspect it might be very hard to get one after giving up citizenship.

Edited May 22, 2013 by ubonjoe

[NeverSure]

@NanLaew - WWT is the law that make US citizens pay US income taxes from anywhere in the world.

@kurtmartens - Right now I have US Medicare Advantage which is full-blown medical insurance for about US$100 a month. I manage to maintain US residency to keep it. All I have to do is be well enough to set foot on US soil and I'm covered. I can't get that anywhere else I know of.

I collect the maximum social security which is comfortably more than needed for retirement visa in LOS. If I live to be 90 (My dad is 96 and well) I will collect almost 750,000 US dollars on that, compounded at 2% interest, or if they give just 2% COLAs or a combination thereof.

Those two things alone - collecting SS and savings on insurance premiums (if I could even get other insurance) are worth the effort.

If you will pay more taxes than that during the rest of your lifetime, you are actually lucky IMHO.

Edited May 22, 2013 by NeverSure

[kurtmartens]

Unless someone was a really high earner and didn't ever want to set foot in the US again, and preferred to gain citizenship in a country which has low taxes, I can't imagine doing it. There are too many benefits to being able to land on US soil at will. It's also a great passport to have.

Would I really want to live in Singapore which is so tiny, and where I feel like a stranger, when the US is so big and varied in choices of living area, costs, and lifestyle? The US is also a cheap place to live. Even downtown NYC is much cheaper than Singapore or London or Sydney or Melbourne or Paris or Geneva or Tokyo or Oslo...

No city in the US is on the list of the ten most expensive cities in the world. Link. People forget that it isn't all about income and capital gains taxes. It's about opportunity and overall costs, too.

That said, if your friend wants to do it, he makes application and settles up with the IRS. That settlement isn't unfair, but they want to collect any taxes due before they'll release citizenship.

That is a huge decision.

Nothing wrong with a Singapore passport. Accepted in as many countries as a US Passport and can land in the US with "visa on arrival" status. And more importantly, no world wide tax to deal with. That is the biggest gripe I have and my friends all have as expats. World wide tax. Get rid of world wide tax and less people would be looking to ditch their citizenship or try to hide money IMO.

British friend of mine married and living in Singapore for many years chose a Singapore passport for his daughter when she was an infant as he saw that as the 'path of least resistance' as she grew up and went to school there. Now she has been offered a place at University in England and he is ruing the day he opted against a UK passport with the rather onerous UK student visa requirements. Having said that, I have no idea if he explored dual-citizenship (and concurrent UK passport) for her. Maybe Singapore doesn't permit that?

What is "world wide tax" btw?

Yeah that is the downfall, Singapore doesn't allow dual citizenship ... so can be hassle for some things. But, in general their passports are as accepted as UK or US ones for visa free travel. Even to the US, just "apply" online (forget what the website is called) like a UK passport holder would do ... and travel. Which is why I wouldn't mind given up my US passport .... since I could still travel to the US relatively easily.

Worldwide tax is the US tax policy that taxes US citizens income whether earned in or out of the US. So even though I work overseas for the past 10 years ... I still have to pay tax on my income over $96,000 (I think that is the latest figure). Which is a bitter pill to swallow for some expats.

[kurtmartens]

@NanLaew - WWT is the law that make US citizens pay US income taxes from anywhere in the world.

@kurtmartens - Right now I have US Medicare Advantage which is full-blown medical insurance for about US$100 a month. I manage to maintain US residency to keep it. All I have to do is be well enough to set foot on US soil and I'm covered. I can't get that anywhere else I know of.

I collect the maximum social security which is comfortably more than needed for retirement visa in LOS. If I live to be 90 (My dad is 96 and well) I will collect almost 750,000 US dollars on that, compounded at 2% interest, or if they give just 2% COLAs or a combination thereof.

Those two things alone - collecting SS and savings on insurance premiums (if I could even get other insurance) are worth the effort.

If you will pay more taxes than that during the rest of your lifetime, you are actually lucky IMHO.

I hear you and fully understand your point of few. But for those of us who aren't retired and believe that SS won't be there when I retire and/or won't be enough to live on .... i find taxing my income earned outside the US a bit "cheeky". I am lucky, my company provides full coverage at zero cost to me and my family. And when I was only doing consulting, vs being an employee, I was lucky enough to be able to just pay cash for any medical expenses I might have.

Just a different view in my honest opinion. Not that these postings started out about the US tax system (laugh).

[Jingthing]

Don't know the details. Obviously the embassy might be a place to inquire. However, I do know that the USA has issues with citizens cancelling their citizenship for TAX purposes. So if there are US taxation issues, it could potentially be messy.

No they don't. Every person that renounces citizenship - for what ever reason - will be checked for taxation liability before it's finally renounced.

Huh? No they don't what? Your statement basically supports what I said.

[OMGImInPattaya]

@NanLaew - WWT is the law that make US citizens pay US income taxes from anywhere in the world.

@kurtmartens - Right now I have US Medicare Advantage which is full-blown medical insurance for about US$100 a month. I manage to maintain US residency to keep it. All I have to do is be well enough to set foot on US soil and I'm covered. I can't get that anywhere else I know of.

.

Trouble is traditional Medicare is worth didly-squat here in Thailand, or anywhere else outside the US where a US citizen may decide to retire to. To receive any medical care under it, one would have to return to the US and find a doctor who would take you on (no easy task). Of course, this only applies to elective or non-emergency care...in Thailand, if you need emergency care it's again useless. Isn't it the same with Medical Advantage plans as well?

PS: I believe there is a medical facility in Manila that is authorized to accept Medicare. So if this is in fact true, it's a closer option.

PPS: Medical providers in Guam, American Samoa, the Northern Marianas, US Territories all, also may elect to accept Medicare.

Edited May 22, 2013 by OMGImInPattaya

[OMGImInPattaya]

Read through this stuff: http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html

Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship

D. DUAL NATIONALITY / STATELESSNESS

Persons intending to renounce U.S. citizenship should be aware that, unless they already possess a foreign nationality, they may be rendered stateless and, thus, lack the protection of any government. They may also have difficulty traveling as they may not be entitled to a passport from any country. Even if not stateless, former U.S. citizens would still be required to obtain a visa to travel to the United States, or show that they are eligible for admission pursuant to the terms of the Visa Waiver Pilot Program (VWPP). Nonetheless, renunciation of U.S. citizenship may not prevent a foreign country from deporting that individual to the United States in some non-citizen status.

I wonder how that would work...renounce your US citizenship without obtaining a prior citizenship in another country, so one is stateless. One get's picked up by the Thai authorities for whatever, even being stateless let's say, and either end up in some Thai/UN stateless persons camp somewhere along the Thai/Burma border or maybe get sent back to the US in some "non-citizen" status. Does one end up in Gitmo or something?

Edited May 22, 2013 by OMGImInPattaya

[Pinot]

With all the hate, there is a lot of talk of giving up American citizenship. I realize that in this case this might not apply. It isn't easy to give up citizenship in America for a good reason. The world doesn't want stateless people wandering around. For those wanting to give it up, I think you're crazy if you do, but you're probably out there anyway. When the poop hits the fan, you want to have an American passport. If that's what you've decided you want, giving up American citizenship...don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[IMA_FARANG]

To renounce your U.S. citizenship you simply appear before the U.S. consulate officer in the U.S. embassy here in Bangkok and make that voluntary statement under oath before him or her.

It is a legal statement witnessed by the consulate officer under oath and there is a fee for that legal noterised statement. But before you do this you need to understand what the U.S. tax laws have to say about any property you own in the U.S.

You MAY find that under U.S. tax laws you will be taxed a so-called "exit tax" depending on your tax status and your income.

So BEFORE you actually do this, take some time to research exactly what tax obligations you will incur by abandoning your U.S. citizenship. It's not a simple thing, you MAY find yourself paying several thousand dollars in that "exit tax".

Each case is different, so you need to understand exactly what it means to you personally to surrender your U.S. citizenship.

Look carefully at what it means to your case before you take the leap.

[Cheapcharly]

Thai tax or usa tax are the same... maybe just 1 or 2 percent difference.

plus usa seem to be in a better shape now. shist gaz, oil, car industry...

Europe is collapsing taking thailand with them.

for these reasons I would keep a USA citizenship... you don't need to go to USA anyway. you are not resident, u are citizen... u can leave USA forever... and work anywhere you want... refugee of USA or green card holder are stuck in the USA and have to wait years for citizenship plus stay 6 months on USA for years...

i have 2 nationalities as well and i keep them.

[lopburi3]

Off-topic post removed.

[cup-O-coffee]

You might be interested in this

[Thailion]

On Us citizenship....can anybody answer do I automatically qualify for US citizenship if my Father is a citizen?

Assuming this to be the case can I then get my children US citizenship obviously after I get mine?

I lived in the States for 15 years but failed to apply for citizenship prior to leaving...I now have 2 boys that have never been to the states.

Is it as easy as doing some paperwork here to apply in both cases or am I barking up the wrong tree??

[ubonjoe]

On Us citizenship....can anybody answer do I automatically qualify for US citizenship if my Father is a citizen?

Assuming this to be the case can I then get my children US citizenship obviously after I get mine?

I lived in the States for 15 years but failed to apply for citizenship prior to leaving...I now have 2 boys that have never been to the states.

Is it as easy as doing some paperwork here to apply in both cases or am I barking up the wrong tree??

If you have proof that your father is a US citizen then it should not be a problem for you. Where were your born? Do you have your birth certificate?

You say you were in the states for 15 years. What was your status there? IE: residency.

For your sons it might be a bit more complicated but you would need to get yours first.

[Emdog]

"The US is also a cheap place to live" Huh? I am US citizen, born and bred, just back from a month over there. I pick up guitars, guitar strings, cheese sometimes. Cheap? Cheaper than here? I do not know what your budget is, but no way would I ever say USA is cheap place to live.

Love to pay taxes for medicare and such and then get NO COVERAGE. There is assumption that somehow you will be well enough to somehow make it back there and get care. Heart attack? good luck. And I no longer vote there, seeing as I have no state to reside in (if I claim my home state, then seems like they could hit me up for state taxes.) No taxation without representation UNLESS you are an expat.

Regarding overseas taxation of income earned: makes me think of Apollo 13 when Nixon gave waiver to crew on filing by April 15. You still will be taxed even if you leave the planet!

[drdoom6996]

This is simple. Write a letter stating that. Get it notarized. Go to the American Embassy and give them the letter and the passport. Ask for a receipt.

[dunque]

Looking at some of the replies here it seems some believe renouncing US citizenship to be some sort of apostasy.

And they go on about Islamic fundamentalism. It is all very Cecil Rhodes.

[rshoemake]

Actually, they established guidelines that if you owe more than something like 100k in taxes each of five years and try to give up your citizenship then you'll be considered to be giving it up for tax purposes. Best to try to do it before then. ;-)

[mahjongguy]

"I no longer vote there, seeing as I have no state to reside in (if I claim my home state, then seems like they could hit me up for state taxes.)"

No, they can't and they won't. You can vote by mail/email wherever you were last registered without any risk of being declared a resident.

And while it's true that the U.S.is worst in taxing those who live and earn overseas, the actual tax may not amount to much for those at typical income levels. If you have no U.S. real estate and no state residency then you only have to pay Federal income tax. A retiree who has Social Security and $40,000 in investment income pays an effective tax rate of something like 13%. Don't cry about that to anyone from France.

Speaking of onerous taxes, it could be worse. Switzerland taxes not only your income but your assets. Every year you pay tax on the value of your stock and bond holdings, even if your income is zero.

[ThaiTony2]

Go to the U.S. Embassy and get the details.....details which will also include the fine print. LIke NeverSure said I can't image someone wanting to give up their U.S. citizenship and the associated benefits unless they are trying to avoid something like taxes owed. If it's a concern over dual citizenship and maybe plenty of misinformation/beliefs about dual citizenship, dual citizenship is perfectly legal in Thailand and the U.S.,, although like most countries neither Thailand or the U.S. encourage it...but it's perfectly legal. Even my Thai wife holds dual Thai and U.S. citizenship.

I have a baby (born in Thailand) and the Father is US Citizen. I was told that if I apply and complete the correct papers that my child can hold both Thai and US status however, when the child turns 18 years of age they are required to relinquish on the them. So now I am confused when you state that it legal or are you stated that under certain conditions it is legal?

[samran]

Go to the U.S. Embassy and get the details.....details which will also include the fine print. LIke NeverSure said I can't image someone wanting to give up their U.S. citizenship and the associated benefits unless they are trying to avoid something like taxes owed. If it's a concern over dual citizenship and maybe plenty of misinformation/beliefs about dual citizenship, dual citizenship is perfectly legal in Thailand and the U.S.,, although like most countries neither Thailand or the U.S. encourage it...but it's perfectly legal. Even my Thai wife holds dual Thai and U.S. citizenship.

I have a baby (born in Thailand) and the Father is US Citizen. I was told that if I apply and complete the correct papers that my child can hold both Thai and US status however, when the child turns 18 years of age they are required to relinquish on the them. So now I am confused when you state that it legal or are you stated that under certain conditions it is legal?

Who 'told' you that they had to choose when they are 18? It is simply not true and has no basis in law.