Third of Jordanian teens believe 'honor killings' justified, study shows

[antfish]

My point is that there are two very distinct cultures and interpretations of Islam in Jordan. ...

You might wanna get back to the article and it finding that the opinions about honor killing are not linked to religion.

i guess you just looked for a chance to say something bad about hizbollah, hamas and "palestinian" arabs. Just like the other anti-muslims post here, right?

[7by7]

I had typed out a longish post countering the Islamaphobic posts which are becoming more and more prevalent.

Then I though what's the point?

The ignorance of the prejudiced will not be changed by rational argument.

They believe that honour killings and other atrocities are not just condoned by the Koran and Muslim leaders, but actively encouraged.

They either refuse to acknowledge all the evidence that they are wrong, or if they do acknowledge it in then in their blind hatred they insist that the many, many Muslim leaders and scholars who condemn such atrocities must be lying!

They would be pathetic were they not so dangerous.

The more people like them blame all Muslims for terrorist and honour killings and other atrocities, the more hatred they manage to have directed towards all Muslims because of the actions of a small minority; the more they call Muslim leaders who condemn such atrocities liars; then the more young Muslims become alienated and wonder if maybe they should be fighting the west and it's values.

But the ignorant and prejudiced are too stupid to realise that; and that's the tragedy.

[simple1]

Why is it that nearly every transgression/atrocity in the Islamic world is reported by the news forum in TV, but rarely reporting, if ever of evil in non Muslim societies? e.g. 5.4 million Congolese lives lost due to an ongoing civil war, and continue to leave 1,100 women raped every single day. This was recently highlighted by an international news organisation and not a mention. 14,000 women and women murdered every year in Russia due to domestic violence - again reported, but not a word on TV news forum. The list goes on and on...

Shit is happening all over the world every day. We all know that, but the killing of the innocent on a daily basis because a book worldwide is the worlds Achilles Heel at the mo.

What? 1,100 rapes a day in the Congo is kind of irrelevant. In Columbia 250k deaths in an ongoing civil war with millions displaced isn't worthy of debate in the world news forum on TV - just smacks of bias to me.

There you go again, using problems in other countries to minimize or rationalize actions of a Muslim country.

Their you go again making a false statement regarding the intent of my post.

[F430murci]

Shit is happening all over the world every day. We all know that, but the killing of the innocent on a daily basis because a book worldwide is the worlds Achilles Heel at the mo.

What? 1,100 rapes a day in the Congo is kind of irrelevant. In Columbia 250k deaths in an ongoing civil war with millions displaced isn't worthy of debate in the world news forum on TV - just smacks of bias to me.

There you go again, using problems in other countries to minimize or rationalize actions of a Muslim country.

Their you go again making a false statement regarding the intent of my post.

Nah, I think its pretty clear you are stating we should not be complaining about honor killings or they really ain't that bad afterall in Jordan when considering 1,100 rapes a day in Congo. That is what we should be compaining about and leave the poor Jordan guys alone. I think anyone with any degree of analytical skills can read between the lines of what you write. I am curious if you understand, are in denial, or a bit brain washed by your conersion regarding what you write.

[Scott]

Please stay on topic and please post in a civil manner. Further personal comments will result in suspensions.

[geriatrickid]

My point is that there are two very distinct cultures and interpretations of Islam in Jordan. ...

You might wanna get back to the article and it finding that the opinions about honor killing are not linked to religion.

i guess you just looked for a chance to say something bad about hizbollah, hamas and "palestinian" arabs. Just like the other anti-muslims post here, right?

Culture comprises more than religion. Some groups have a more fundamentalist interpretation.

The fact of the matter is that Sharia law does apply in Jordan. The interpretation of that religious law then depends upon multiple factors. It is really no different than the interpretation of other religious laws. For example, North American clerics would tend to a more liberal interpretation of canon law than would African clerics. Nor would I lump all Palestinian arabs into a doctrinaire group as some put more of an emphasis upon compassion and do not agree with any form of violence against women. Unfortunately, groups such as Hamas, who have a strong influence in parts of the Jordanian population do not have any time for concepts such as compassion. I'm sorry, but some social and political groups do consider women chattel and it demonstrated by their policies.

[Jingthing]

...

I'm sorry, but some social and political groups do consider women chattel and it demonstrated by their policies.

Indeed that's the core of the problem. Honor killings are a SYMPTOM.

[Credo]

I had typed out a longish post countering the Islamaphobic posts which are becoming more and more prevalent.

Then I though what's the point?

The ignorance of the prejudiced will not be changed by rational argument.

They believe that honour killings and other atrocities are not just condoned by the Koran and Muslim leaders, but actively encouraged.

They either refuse to acknowledge all the evidence that they are wrong, or if they do acknowledge it in then in their blind hatred they insist that the many, many Muslim leaders and scholars who condemn such atrocities must be lying!

They would be pathetic were they not so dangerous.

The more people like them blame all Muslims for terrorist and honour killings and other atrocities, the more hatred they manage to have directed towards all Muslims because of the actions of a small minority; the more they call Muslim leaders who condemn such atrocities liars; then the more young Muslims become alienated and wonder if maybe they should be fighting the west and it's values.

But the ignorant and prejudiced are too stupid to realise that; and that's the tragedy.

You seem to think that everyone who does not agree with honor killings and terrorism, or who doesn't excuse it, are anti-Muslim. Quite the opposite. I have spent considerable time living in Islamic countries. I have no problem with people practicing their religion.

I have a problem with dogmatic interpretation of rules, customs or religious tenants and people harming other people because of them.

[transam]

I had typed out a longish post countering the Islamaphobic posts which are becoming more and more prevalent.

Then I though what's the point?

The ignorance of the prejudiced will not be changed by rational argument.

They believe that honour killings and other atrocities are not just condoned by the Koran and Muslim leaders, but actively encouraged.

They either refuse to acknowledge all the evidence that they are wrong, or if they do acknowledge it in then in their blind hatred they insist that the many, many Muslim leaders and scholars who condemn such atrocities must be lying!

They would be pathetic were they not so dangerous.

The more people like them blame all Muslims for terrorist and honour killings and other atrocities, the more hatred they manage to have directed towards all Muslims because of the actions of a small minority; the more they call Muslim leaders who condemn such atrocities liars; then the more young Muslims become alienated and wonder if maybe they should be fighting the west and it's values.

But the ignorant and prejudiced are too stupid to realise that; and that's the tragedy.

You seem to think that everyone who does not agree with honor killings and terrorism, or who doesn't excuse it, are anti-Muslim. Quite the opposite. I have spent considerable time living in Islamic countries. I have no problem with people practicing their religion.

I have a problem with dogmatic interpretation of rules, customs or religious tenants and people harming other people because of them.

Wish I had put it that way.

[7by7]

Credo, I do not believe that

everyone who does not agree with honor killings and terrorism, or who doesn't excuse it, are anti-Muslim

as anyone who had read my posts with an open mind would know.

I have a problem with people who ignore facts which conflict with their ignorance.

If you knew anything about Islam at all then you would know that honour killings are nothing to do with Islam; in fact are against the teachings of Islam.

Especially when many honour killings don't involve Muslims at all!

Yes, the majority of honour killings are carried out by Muslims; but the beliefs behind such killings are deeply set in the type of patriarchal societies in which they take place; and pre dates both Islam and Christianity.

Religion has nothing to do with it; but the ignorant prejudiced don't care about that.

Transam is obviously too frightened of having his prejudice shaken to have read my earlier links; it seems that you, Credo, are equally scared.

[Credo]

I can assure you that I know plenty about a number of religions, including Islam. I can also tell you that I have a family member married to a Muslim and he and the children are all practicing Muslims and we are very close. I can tell you that I spent numerous years living in and working in Muslim-dominated countries.

I don't know what your cause is, because if anything you polarize the issue more than you help it. The one honor killing that I personally witnessed, and it was one of the more unpleasant things I have witnessed, was, as they said "Done in the name of Allah". People invoking the name of their God while doing an act would seem to believe it is with His permission. I hear very little from the Imams that discourages this practice. Criticizing a practice done in the name of religion does not make one against a religion.

Before you post some nefarious link to some obscure Imam who once said Honor killings in the UK are wrong, try to find one that is from one who preaches that in Jordan and then we can start talking about what to do about it. And then find some links to those in the religious hierarchy who are actually doing something about it.

You seem to think we are all anti-Islam. One size doesn't fit all.

[7by7]

Before you post some nefarious link to some obscure Imam who once said Honor killings in the UK are wrong,

That statement alone confirms that you have not read the links; what are you scared of finding in them?

try to find one that is from one who preaches that in Jordan

How about the King and Queen? JORDAN: Honour killings still tolerated

Queen Rania, the wife of King Abdullah, is a strong advocate of women’s rights issues and a leading supporter of changes in honour killing legislation. A Royal Commission on Human Rights, set up by King Abdullah, has already proposed stricter measures against honour killings.

However, when the government introduced a bill outlining stiff penalties for honour killers, parliament rejected it outright, saying it would encourage adultery and create new social problems.

MPs who supported the draft law said it was shot down because the majority of lawmakers come from tribal backgrounds and cannot risk angering their electors.

Jordan obviously has a long way to go; but that article alone proves this is a cultural problem which has nothing to do with Islam.

You are correct; one size does not fit all.

But many posters in this topic and all others concerning crimes committed by Muslims seem to think that it does!

[transam]

I can assure you that I know plenty about a number of religions, including Islam. I can also tell you that I have a family member married to a Muslim and he and the children are all practicing Muslims and we are very close. I can tell you that I spent numerous years living in and working in Muslim-dominated countries.

I don't know what your cause is, because if anything you polarize the issue more than you help it. The one honor killing that I personally witnessed, and it was one of the more unpleasant things I have witnessed, was, as they said "Done in the name of Allah". People invoking the name of their God while doing an act would seem to believe it is with His permission. I hear very little from the Imams that discourages this practice. Criticizing a practice done in the name of religion does not make one against a religion.

Before you post some nefarious link to some obscure Imam who once said Honor killings in the UK are wrong, try to find one that is from one who preaches that in Jordan and then we can start talking about what to do about it. And then find some links to those in the religious hierarchy who are actually doing something about it.

You seem to think we are all anti-Islam. One size doesn't fit all.

, may I add ''The blind will never see, only see what is in their head'', sadly.

PS. How many innocent have been killed today for nothing l wonder.

[7by7]

may I add ''The blind will never see, only see what is in their head'', sadly.

Indeed; you must be talking about yourself.

[Credo]

@ 7by7: Again you digress. The King and Queen of Jordan are not members of the religious hierarchy. They are people whom I highly respect, however, they are not the subject of this thread.

And your statement, "That statement alone confirms that you have not read the links; what are you scared of finding in them?" is again an assumption on your part.

[transam]

may I add ''The blind will never see, only see what is in their head'', sadly.

Indeed; you must be talking about yourself.

You have not yet come up with a reason why all over our planet a certain religion is killing women and children on a daily basis. You have quoted here that you are well in with these folk BUT you have not come up with the reason why these folk are killing or why they have not been stopped.

Please do not come back and say your chums don't like it, answer my question and tell me what the good guys are doing to stop kids losing arms and legs and worse. ? PLEASE

[7by7]

A certain religion is not killing women and children all over the planet on a daily basis!

People from certain cultures and different religions in some parts of the world believe in honour killings.

Had you read any of the links I have provided you would know that these killings are nothing to do with Islam and condemned by Muslim leaders.

Why haven't your read them?

[vesmax]

If you ignore them, sometimes they go away.

[Jingthing]

Do you have more info on this Jingthing?

I'm surprised you need help with this. But OK, and thousands of other links you can find yourself:

On Feb. 22, Faleh al-Maleki was convicted of killing his daughter, committing aggravated assault against Khalaf and leaving the scene of a crime. His defense attorney argued that he had intended to spit on Khalaf and accidentally ran over the two women. Prosecutors had pressed a first-degree murder charge. They characterized his actions as an "honor killing," a controversial term that refers to a family member or members killing a relative, usually a girl or young woman, whose behavior is judged to have tarnished the family honor.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2055445,00.html#ixzz2X7mB7TTX

[Jingthing]

Be careful now. I don't think all of us are doing anything of the kind -- blaming all Muslims for the atrocities of a few. That said, I do think some typical manifestations of modern Islam, especially in many but not all Islamic-based governments, such as policies about subjugation of women are not really compatible with western values. There is nothing wrong with taking a stand on such things. If there is a conflict, there is conflict; it can't always be avoided and in my view it shouldn't always be avoided. Is intolerance of intolerance (for women's empowerment for example) also intolerance. I say --- NO.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts have been deleted as well as replies.

The OP is rather specific about the topic, it is honor killings in Jordan and it states that the operative factors are age and education. The thread has specifically said that religion was not the main factor.

This topic is veering way off course and a general discussion of Islam is not on-topic. Please keep this rule in mind when posting:

7) Not to post slurs or degrading comments directed towards any group on the basis of race, nationality, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

It might also be wise to keep this rule in mind as well:

1) To respect fellow members.

Posters have the right to their opinion, but exercise care in how you post.

[Scott]

You have been warned to stay on the topic. Further off-topic posts or re-posting deleted posts is going to warrant suspension.

[Steely Dan]

I think it very difficult to unravel culture from religion. Many people would consider themselves culturally Christian, though they may not go to church or actually believe in the bible. By the same logic it is difficult for religious leaders to wash their hands of what takes place in their Country, unless of course they claim their religious faith exists in a vacuum, they can hardly do this whilst opposing reforms against honor killings from their own Queen. From the Op, Queen Rania campaigning against honor killings.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/jordan/6736576/Queen-Rania-of-Jordan-takes-on-hardliners-over-honour-killings.html

On one side is the fashionably dressed Queen Rania of Jordan, an elegant symbol of progressive values for Arab women. On the other are her country's conservative social and religious leaders.

At stake is a political test case for reform in the Middle East, one that pits demands for greater democracy against the need to end the scandal of so-called honour killings of women.

[Ulysses G.]

I think it very difficult to unravel culture from religion.

That is pretty difficult to argue with.

[7by7]

Saudi Arabia and Indonesia. Both Islamic states, very different cultures.

The USA and Russia. Both Christian states, very different cultures.

Thailand and Sri Lanka. Both Buddhist states, very different cultures.

India and Nepal. Both Hindu states, very different cultures.

Before anyone starts, I do not mean that the religions above are necessarily the official state religions of the countries concerned, simply the ones followed by the majority of the population of those countries.

Is Scottish and English culture the same? English and French? French and German?

It is very easy to unravel culture from religion.

[Thaddeus]

It is very easy to unravel culture from religion.

But it is easier to ravel religion in to culture.

Especially when the religion is not just a religion, but the entire foundation of society.

[Ulysses G.]

It is very easy to unravel culture from religion.

More of the usual spin. Are you seriously trying to claim that that religion does not strongly influence the culture of Jordan, Iran, Egypt, Indonesia and other countries dominated by Muslims? No one even suggested that the culture in every Muslim country was exactly the same.

[canman]

One thing which most people seem to miss is that Islam is a political system with a religion mixed in to keep the masses under control. Long standing political systems influence culture, so in that context religion & culture are just two sides of the same coin and cannot be seperated.

[Steely Dan]

It is very easy to unravel culture from religion.

More of the usual spin. Are you seriously trying to claim that that religion does not strongly influence the culture of Jordan, Iran, Egypt, Indonesia and other countries dominated by Muslims? No one even suggested that the culture in every Muslim country was exactly the same.

More from my link about Queen Rania.

This whole issue is being exaggerated, and the reason behind it is not innocent," said Sheikh Hamza Mansour, leader of the parliament's Islamic Action Front. His coalition of Islamist and tribal representatives has so far blocked an attempt to introduce tougher sentences for men who have killed their sisters and daughters for bringing "shame" on their families.

So it is the Islamic Action Front who are blocking legal reforms - a coalition of Islamist and tribal representatives. Looks like a pretty clear link to me, certainly with respect to Jordan.

[7by7]

The patriarchal traditions which sanction such atrocities pre date Islam and Christianity.

Some religious leaders in some countries base their statements and support of these killings on those traditions, either ignoring the teachings of the particular religion or finding and then distorting some obscure text to justify it.

As has been repeatedly pointed out in this topic these killings are not based upon the teachings of Islam and most Muslim leaders and scholars condemn them.

As has also been pointed out, this is not just a Muslim on Muslim crime. Followers of other religions also carry them out and use their religion to justify them.

But the haters on this forum don't care about that; all they care about is finding another reason to justify their irrational hatred.

It wont be long before one of them posts a news report about a Muslim driver killing some children through dangerous driving so they can shout that all Muslims are a dangerous menace on the roads intent on killing non Muslim children at any opportunity!