Secret no-fly list causes Bangkok holiday nightmare

[DiamondKing]

There's some sickening opinions on here.

Muslims may be responsible for most of the Western-reported terrorism but the terrorism that goes on every day in the name of freedom - of which this is an example - is not acceptable.

You need to take a look at yourselves and ask whether you are part of the problem.

We can clearly see where you stand and you even call yourself a facist in your avatar, No time for people like you.

Edited July 2, 2013 by DiamondKing

[craigt3365]

Before more of our members are given posting holidays or warnings, please be advised of this forum rule:

7) Not to post slurs or degrading comments directed towards any group on the basis of race, nationality, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

We enforce this rule rigorously.

[simple1]

Geriatrickid

How do you know the man was not an "immediate danger" to the flight? Until all the facts are established and made public, you can not claim he was harmless, anymore than one can claim he was about to launch a terror attack. The fact is that the gentleman refused to answer the questions asked by Thai immigration. He also refused to answer the questions of US officials. Without the gentleman's cooperation there wasn't much anyone could do for him. If the questions were inappropriate or "illegal" he will have the opportunity to seek redress in a US court. He was detained by Thai immigration in accordance with the existing regulations. On any given day there are several detainees that are in BKK's holding room because they do not meet the legal requirements for entry into the Kingdom. The US government did not accuse him of any crime, nor did it treat him as a criminal. the gentleman made the decision not to cooperate thereby delaying his return to the USA because the US officials had to verify information.

The chap fits the pattern for similar domestic terrorists; Interest in contraband drugs, exposure to radical Islamist groups, travel to a region where the radical groups are active, an interest in ultimate fight/physical combat and outspoken in his views that muslims are being targeted by the west. This was all plain to see on his facebook page. All these characteristics are similar to the characteristics of the Boston bombers. This is no wacko. He is an intelligent sentient person and knew what he was doing.

If he had been an immediate danger to the flight, he would have been taken into custody and not allowed to wander around the concourse in BKK.

Any person who wants to return to their country should be allowed to do so unhindered, except for identification purposes or if they are a danger to the flight. . I have read nothing to suggest that his identification was in doubt or that he was a danger to the flight.

Again, if he is wanted in relation to any crimes he may have committed, then he should be arrested in his home country once he returns on the flight, charged and go through court proceedings. If not, then let him on his way. The system in use will only ever create more terrorists. It will never succeed in reducing their numbers.

Try not to see this as Anti American, if anything it is trying to observe flaws in the system. A system controls society and not the other way around. The system is run by processes. In the main processes are good and work effectively. The main problem with processes, is that nobody makes decisions, nobody says no. It is not wise to go outside a process in case an error, maybe years down the line can be attributed to someone who went outside a process. It conditions people to adhere to it strictly. Problem is, not every situation has an effective process to handle it. This is when the system starts to fail. No effective process to handle it and no one to make a decision.

According to Mr. Motiwala, " he was tossed into a detention centre in Suvarnabhumi Airport".

If he was in detention, then he wasn't wandering about the concourse was he?

According to the OP - "He wandered the airport terminal for the first four nights"

[rijb]

I was a frequent flyer. My name is on a "no fly list". A lot of common names are. You learn to get to the airport early because there will be additional screening and questions. The security guys and gals have a job to do, And i support them. I let them ask their questions and be satisfied that i'm not the particular person on the "no fly list".

At the end , they usually thank me for my patience, and i thank them for their vigilance and hard work.

The entire "ordeal" can last 5extra minutes on a good day, 15 on a bad day.

No problem.

Yes you do have the right to not answer any questions.

And they have the right not to let you board while they check out if you re the particular person on the list.

With your help, 5 to 15 minutes (my experience)

With your silence 5 to 15 days (his experience)

The choice is yours.

Lastly

the dude appears to be a traditional Muslim

traveling back from Pakistan (haven't verified yet)

and acting uncooperatively

What did he expect? or was he just trying to make some news?

I think we got a brilliant solution to the "riddle" here. I have friends and people I know who run into problems with officials on a frequent basis due to being incooperative. One example would be a friend having the German Embassy denying his (Thai) girlfriend the visa because he and his girlfriend did not want to answer the ambassador's staff a question about how and where they met. If you act suspicious, you will be treated accordingly - as simple is that. However - I would like to thank the US of A (and what the A stands for smells bad) for making our world of today oh, so safe by first creating terrorist cells to later save us from them: http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_64528.shtml

Wake up people! 99% of the muslim people also don't want anything more than just live a decent life and raise their kids in a peaceful environment. Do you really think they love to live in half destroyed and bombed cities just for fun? Why is it that poppy crops are now back to 90% in Afghanistan with heroin factories standing now out in the open secured by US soldiers, after our saviours, the US of A world police moved in after the Taliban has brought the drug production down to a mere 10%? Who is bombing the shit out of countries killing millions of innocent men, women and children just because someone is making up a story about some undefined weapons of mass destruction? Who is spying on the whole world and is still walking away in a white shirt while that country (US of A) would declare the internet spying on their own nation a terrorist act if it would be done vice versa? Give me a break! The real terrorists are not a few bearded guys sitting in some caves in Pakistan - the ultimate enemy to all of us, to our freedom of choice and speech, to our religious freedom, and to our freedom to choose world peace, is your own US government and the big corporations behind who make billions every day by tossing oil in the fire !!!!

Finally let me quote this as food for thought:

"If my sons did not want wars, there would be none."

Gutle Schnaper

Mayer Amschel Rothschild's wife

You might want to cut down on all that 'food' for your paranoia.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

We now know he was just being difficult and non cooperative after wandering the terminal.

My question is was he being difficult or non cooperative in the first place when denied boarding?

Would not surprise me if he just a drama queen trying to make a religious issue out of next to nothing.

No secret list

No religious discrimination

Not even a holiday in Thailand

[chrisinth]

There's some sickening opinions on here.

Muslims may be responsible for most of the Western-reported terrorism but the terrorism that goes on every day in the name of freedom - of which this is an example - is not acceptable.

You need to take a look at yourselves and ask whether you are part of the problem.

Are you trying to suggest that the posters on TV are even remotely personally responsible for human atrocities that occur all over the world and have occured throughout history? By this logic, it would make sense for each individual German to apologize for what happens in Palestine, each Russian to apologize for what happens in post-Soviet satellite states like Turkmenistan, each denizen of Japan to personally apologize for what happened in China, each American to apologize for every Iraqi casualty, and all Europeans and Americans to apologize for the state of Africa today. Not only would that be absurd, but it would simultaneously suggest that only Americans are responsible for Islamic terrorism, as though Muslims themselves never should have to bear any responsibility for the state of affairs in their respective countries. I think most people around the world would like to go about their days taking care of business and family without worrying about whether a bunch of crazed-zealots are going to murder their husbands, wives, and children. Do TV posters strap on explosives and murder women and children? Your point makes a lot of sense (depending on perspective), but everything is relative, and if you go back far enough, we would all be criminals and murderers at some point. The question is, relatively speaking, who is more morally culpable for modern atrocities? You can make the argument that Linda in Kentucky is as culpable as Zacarias Moussaoui for violence and evil, but I wouldn't buy it, and I'm sure I'm not alone. I support more awareness of how certain countries foreign policies affect people around the world. I don't think that every American is personally responsible for what happens in Syria today.

"Are you trying to suggest that the posters on TV are even remotely personally responsible for human atrocities that occur all over the world and have occurred throughout history?"

I don't know, do you?

"Do TV posters strap on explosives and murder women and children?"

I don't know, do you?

As this is an anonymous forum, we don't know who the posters are. We cannot determine their actions from their usernames or avatars, even what they write, as there is no verification to their posts.

In the same way we (or the security services) cannot tell by how a person dresses who or what they are without further evidence. The fact that the person in the OP was on a no-fly list would suggest further evidence was present when that decision was made to put him on the list, rightly or wrongly.

Unfortunately, the image of a "typical" Muslim 'terrorist' has been imbedded into people's memories through constant exposure over the last 15 years of Bin Laden and his band of merry men, so when these people see photographs, or see in person, someone in traditional dress, the automatic reference from memory is that they are terrorists. If only for a split second. Reaction seen mostly in people who have never been to the Middle East, Pakistan, etc. and don't understand traditional dress.

Terrorists do not wear uniforms, they do not draw attention to themselves................

@Unkomoncents, that is not a dig at your post, in fact I agree with some of your points. I was using your examples in a slightly different way than you did to get my points across.

[RogueLeader]

I was a frequent flyer. My name is on a "no fly list". A lot of common names are. You learn to get to the airport early because there will be additional screening and questions. The security guys and gals have a job to do, And i support them. I let them ask their questions and be satisfied that i'm not the particular person on the "no fly list".

At the end , they usually thank me for my patience, and i thank them for their vigilance and hard work.

The entire "ordeal" can last 5extra minutes on a good day, 15 on a bad day.

No problem.

Yes you do have the right to not answer any questions.

And they have the right not to let you board while they check out if you re the particular person on the list.

With your help, 5 to 15 minutes (my experience)

With your silence 5 to 15 days (his experience)

The choice is yours.

Lastly

the dude appears to be a traditional Muslim

traveling back from Pakistan (haven't verified yet)

and acting uncooperatively

What did he expect? or was he just trying to make some news?

I think we got a brilliant solution to the "riddle" here. I have friends and people I know who run into problems with officials on a frequent basis due to being incooperative. One example would be a friend having the German Embassy denying his (Thai) girlfriend the visa because he and his girlfriend did not want to answer the ambassador's staff a question about how and where they met. If you act suspicious, you will be treated accordingly - as simple is that. However - I would like to thank the US of A (and what the A stands for smells bad) for making our world of today oh, so safe by first creating terrorist cells to later save us from them: http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_64528.shtml

Wake up people! 99% of the muslim people also don't want anything more than just live a decent life and raise their kids in a peaceful environment. Do you really think they love to live in half destroyed and bombed cities just for fun? Why is it that poppy crops are now back to 90% in Afghanistan with heroin factories standing now out in the open secured by US soldiers, after our saviours, the US of A world police moved in after the Taliban has brought the drug production down to a mere 10%? Who is bombing the shit out of countries killing millions of innocent men, women and children just because someone is making up a story about some undefined weapons of mass destruction? Who is spying on the whole world and is still walking away in a white shirt while that country (US of A) would declare the internet spying on their own nation a terrorist act if it would be done vice versa? Give me a break! The real terrorists are not a few bearded guys sitting in some caves in Pakistan - the ultimate enemy to all of us, to our freedom of choice and speech, to our religious freedom, and to our freedom to choose world peace, is your own US government and the big corporations behind who make billions every day by tossing oil in the fire !!!!

Finally let me quote this as food for thought:

"If my sons did not want wars, there would be none."

Gutle Schnaper

Mayer Amschel Rothschild's wife

You might want to cut down on all that 'food' for your paranoia.

So:

It's paranoid to point out that governments of all hues and nationalities are overstepping their mark in league with large corporations and rich individuals, which is a documented fact

But

It's not paranoid to think that everyone with a beard and a knitted hat is out to blow up your Honda.

Have I got that right?

[MacChine]

There is surely a lesson here. If you look and dress like Bin Laden, fly to Pakistan and Indonesia meeting with fundamentalist Islam groups like Tablighi Jamaat, there is a very good chance your freedom to travel will be curtailed. If he looked and acted like the Californian med student he claims to be he would have passed through Bangkok without drama. His choice.

Its lucky I wasn't the guy in charge or he would be waterskiing or wakeboarding in Gitmo.

<deleted> you live on the same globe as i do , i am ashamed to be part of the human race

Membership is not compulsory, you can resign at any time.

By Newton's 3rd, any extremist views will generate equally extreme views at the opposite end of the spectrum. And while those of use towards the centre have our freedom restricted because of the actions of extremists, don't be surprised when wanna-bes and associates of extremists attract little sympathy, if not enmity.

When you lie down with dogs, expect fleas.

Newton' s law concern physics not humanity, and by such reckoning, extremist hate should create love; equal but opposite.

The like indicators on the posts about this man deserving his harassment for his conservative appearance are a sad indicator of the general intellectual capacity of this board- ultra conservative, privileged, western white males, and by extension representing the majority of Thai expats, too. It's like 1960 here.

Beside the obvious reason this story is ridiculous is that when terrorists infiltrate cultures and wish to blow up things or kill, they dress like everyone else.

Edited July 2, 2013 by MacChine

[blabla1]

People on that list should also have dates of birth, so if the same name pops up,match it to the birthdate, or am i stupid? secondly, religious figures dress like this guy, we have been conditioned to think this is a terrorist outfit, we cannot live in fear,fear breads more fear, more fear more security, more security, less privacy for us all, we will all be tagged one day soon,thats where its heading...... humble me..

[rijb]

I was a frequent flyer. My name is on a "no fly list". A lot of common names are. You learn to get to the airport early because there will be additional screening and questions. The security guys and gals have a job to do, And i support them. I let them ask their questions and be satisfied that i'm not the particular person on the "no fly list".

At the end , they usually thank me for my patience, and i thank them for their vigilance and hard work.

The entire "ordeal" can last 5extra minutes on a good day, 15 on a bad day.

No problem.

Yes you do have the right to not answer any questions.

And they have the right not to let you board while they check out if you re the particular person on the list.

With your help, 5 to 15 minutes (my experience)

With your silence 5 to 15 days (his experience)

The choice is yours.

Lastly

the dude appears to be a traditional Muslim

traveling back from Pakistan (haven't verified yet)

and acting uncooperatively

What did he expect? or was he just trying to make some news?

I think we got a brilliant solution to the "riddle" here. I have friends and people I know who run into problems with officials on a frequent basis due to being incooperative. One example would be a friend having the German Embassy denying his (Thai) girlfriend the visa because he and his girlfriend did not want to answer the ambassador's staff a question about how and where they met. If you act suspicious, you will be treated accordingly - as simple is that. However - I would like to thank the US of A (and what the A stands for smells bad) for making our world of today oh, so safe by first creating terrorist cells to later save us from them: http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_64528.shtml

Wake up people! 99% of the muslim people also don't want anything more than just live a decent life and raise their kids in a peaceful environment. Do you really think they love to live in half destroyed and bombed cities just for fun? Why is it that poppy crops are now back to 90% in Afghanistan with heroin factories standing now out in the open secured by US soldiers, after our saviours, the US of A world police moved in after the Taliban has brought the drug production down to a mere 10%? Who is bombing the shit out of countries killing millions of innocent men, women and children just because someone is making up a story about some undefined weapons of mass destruction? Who is spying on the whole world and is still walking away in a white shirt while that country (US of A) would declare the internet spying on their own nation a terrorist act if it would be done vice versa? Give me a break! The real terrorists are not a few bearded guys sitting in some caves in Pakistan - the ultimate enemy to all of us, to our freedom of choice and speech, to our religious freedom, and to our freedom to choose world peace, is your own US government and the big corporations behind who make billions every day by tossing oil in the fire !!!!

Finally let me quote this as food for thought:

"If my sons did not want wars, there would be none."

Gutle Schnaper

Mayer Amschel Rothschild's wife

You might want to cut down on all that 'food' for your paranoia.

So:

It's paranoid to point out that governments of all hues and nationalities are overstepping their mark in league with large corporations and rich individuals, which is a documented fact

But

It's not paranoid to think that everyone with a beard and a knitted hat is out to blow up your Honda.

Have I got that right?

I have nothing against paranoia. It looks very nice on you.

[catweazle]

I was a frequent flyer. My name is on a "no fly list". A lot of common names are. You learn to get to the airport early because there will be additional screening and questions. The security guys and gals have a job to do, And i support them. I let them ask their questions and be satisfied that i'm not the particular person on the "no fly list".

At the end , they usually thank me for my patience, and i thank them for their vigilance and hard work.

The entire "ordeal" can last 5extra minutes on a good day, 15 on a bad day.

No problem.

Yes you do have the right to not answer any questions.

And they have the right not to let you board while they check out if you re the particular person on the list.

With your help, 5 to 15 minutes (my experience)

With your silence 5 to 15 days (his experience)

The choice is yours.

Lastly

the dude appears to be a traditional Muslim

traveling back from Pakistan (haven't verified yet)

and acting uncooperatively

What did he expect? or was he just trying to make some news?

I think we got a brilliant solution to the "riddle" here. I have friends and people I know who run into problems with officials on a frequent basis due to being incooperative. One example would be a friend having the German Embassy denying his (Thai) girlfriend the visa because he and his girlfriend did not want to answer the ambassador's staff a question about how and where they met. If you act suspicious, you will be treated accordingly - as simple is that. However - I would like to thank the US of A (and what the A stands for smells bad) for making our world of today oh, so safe by first creating terrorist cells to later save us from them: http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_64528.shtml

Wake up people! 99% of the muslim people also don't want anything more than just live a decent life and raise their kids in a peaceful environment. Do you really think they love to live in half destroyed and bombed cities just for fun? Why is it that poppy crops are now back to 90% in Afghanistan with heroin factories standing now out in the open secured by US soldiers, after our saviours, the US of A world police moved in after the Taliban has brought the drug production down to a mere 10%? Who is bombing the shit out of countries killing millions of innocent men, women and children just because someone is making up a story about some undefined weapons of mass destruction? Who is spying on the whole world and is still walking away in a white shirt while that country (US of A) would declare the internet spying on their own nation a terrorist act if it would be done vice versa? Give me a break! The real terrorists are not a few bearded guys sitting in some caves in Pakistan - the ultimate enemy to all of us, to our freedom of choice and speech, to our religious freedom, and to our freedom to choose world peace, is your own US government and the big corporations behind who make billions every day by tossing oil in the fire !!!!

Finally let me quote this as food for thought:

"If my sons did not want wars, there would be none."

Gutle Schnaper

Mayer Amschel Rothschild's wife

You might want to cut down on all that 'food' for your paranoia.

So:

It's paranoid to point out that governments of all hues and nationalities are overstepping their mark in league with large corporations and rich individuals, which is a documented fact

But

It's not paranoid to think that everyone with a beard and a knitted hat is out to blow up your Honda.

Have I got that right?

Thanks RogueLeader - think your brief message rounds it all up pretty well. Rijbs denial tendencies would make him a perfect accountant or desk clerk at one of the soon to come NWO headquarters... Denial can be a terrible thing, especially when black on white facts are denied that our out there in the open for everyone to see.

[metisdead]

Off topic and nonsense posts and replies have been removed.

[SteeleJoe]

Beside the obvious reason this story is ridiculous is that when terrorists infiltrate cultures and wish to blow up things or kill, they dress like everyone else.

I myself made the point much earlier in the thread that terrorists on operations in the west don't appear like this guy. I also couldn't agree more that his appearance is not even close to evidence or indication that he is dangerous (not only is that obvious to anyone with some logic and a bit of knowledge but I happen to live among people who look like that).

However, I think some people are making a false dichotomy on this thread and or confusing causality and correlation and that you have here: he may be on a watch list because of suspected terrorist links or jihadist sympathies. He may be dressed as he is because of his beliefs. The fact that he was dressed like that indicates strongly that he was not on an operation at the time even IF he is an Islamist extremist. It does not however mean he is not an Islamist extremist or that he will never be on an operation and this there is no reason for him to be on a list...

[chrisinth]

Beside the obvious reason this story is ridiculous is that when terrorists infiltrate cultures and wish to blow up things or kill, they dress like everyone else.

I myself made the point much earlier in the thread that terrorists on operations in the west don't appear like this guy. I also couldn't agree more that his appearance is not even close to evidence or indication that he is dangerous (not only is that obvious to anyone with some logic and a bit of knowledge but I happen to live among people who look like that).

However, I think some people are making a false dichotomy on this thread and or confusing causality and correlation and that you have here: he may be on a watch list because of suspected terrorist links or jihadist sympathies. He may be dressed as he is because of his beliefs. The fact that he was dressed like that indicates strongly that he was not on an operation at the time even IF he is an Islamist extremist. It does not however mean he is not an Islamist extremist or that he will never be on an operation and this there is no reason for him to be on a list...

Perfect reply to a logical statement from MacChine

[rijb]

Thanks RogueLeader - think your brief message rounds it all up pretty well. Rijbs denial tendencies would make him a perfect accountant or desk clerk at one of the soon to come NWO headquarters... Denial can be a terrible thing, especially when black on white facts are denied that our out there in the open for everyone to see. - catweazle

My posts are about paranoia. Is paranoia about governments more righteous than paranoia about terrorists? The denial is all yours.

[SteeleJoe]

Beside the obvious reason this story is ridiculous is that when terrorists infiltrate cultures and wish to blow up things or kill, they dress like everyone else.

I myself made the point much earlier in the thread that terrorists on operations in the west don't appear like this guy. I also couldn't agree more that his appearance is not even close to evidence or indication that he is dangerous (not only is that obvious to anyone with some logic and a bit of knowledge but I happen to live among people who look like that).

However, I think some people are making a false dichotomy on this thread and or confusing causality and correlation and that you have here: he may be on a watch list because of suspected terrorist links or jihadist sympathies. He may be dressed as he is because of his beliefs. The fact that he was dressed like that indicates strongly that he was not on an operation at the time even IF he is an Islamist extremist. It does not however mean he is not an Islamist extremist or that he will never be on an operation and this there is no reason for him to be on a list...

Perfect reply to a logical statement from MacChine

Thanks!

But I should have also mentioned that people have repeatedly posted conclusions based on their belief that he was or wasn't likely to be a danger on that particular flight: I think that's another mistake. He wasn't necessarily kept off the flight because he was suspected of having the intention of committing a crime on the plane or the means to do so but rather for reasons having more to do with what he and/or associates may or may not do in the future.

[hansgruber]

I'd feel scared if he just boarded the plane looking like that.

Racial profiling?, sure.

[JetsetBkk]

I'd feel scared if he just boarded the plane looking like that.

Racial profiling?, sure.

Ditto. We are only human.

[F4UCorsair]

Can anyone enlighten me as to why you would wonder the airport terminal for four days waiting to be questioned,why did he not stay in a hotel ?

He was a poor medical student and couldn't afford a hotel!!! I'm laughing hysterically.

Looks shouldn't be important, except........................

Like it or not, appearances do count, even to those who tell us they don't.

Edited July 2, 2013 by F4UCorsair

[jackspratt]

I'd feel scared if he just boarded the plane looking like that.

Racial profiling?, sure.

Ditto. We are only human.

Perhaps airlines of the future will need to include couches on their flights - for the unthinking scaredy cats to hide behind in case there is a .......... gasp ......... Muslim on the plane.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Okay we know he would not show his ID after 4 days of hanging in the terminal

He was not allowed to leave the terminal even though he is American.

Is it because he would not show his ID then? Wouldn't any other American be allowed to stamp into Thailand?

Is it then somewhat probable that he would also not show his ID when he was trying to board the original flight?

It's not about secret lists or being Muslim or even American. It's about being stupid.

[MaxYakov]

My guess is that it is his name that generated the concern, not his appearance.

I have a friend who has a name similar (or the same -- don't know) on a no-fly list and he always gets pulled over for extra questioning and scrutiny. He gets to the airport ahead of time because he knows he will have trouble.

Well, it was probably both. I had a similar experience but not so extreme: in 2004 I changed into a Nepali dress (daura surreal + dhaka topi) in the bathroom before decent to LAX from BKK. My mom was picking me up at the airport, and the show was for her, and the dress given to me by my in-laws. I was watched like a hawk as soon as I stepped out of the cabin toilet, and I had a hell of a time getting thru customs (detained, searched, and questioned endlessly). That was the last time I ever did that. T-shirt, baseball cap, and shorts for all future visits to the USA. So what does this say about America today? Intolerance to the extreme, where you can't wear what you want or look the way you want or heaven forbid you have a muslim name, travel freely. It's not the country I grew up in during the 60's, and not a place I would want to live now.

Yeah, I had a similar run-in with misinformed Customs officials at SFO on one of my returns. I had naively put DVDs on my customs declaration. When (and a big IF) I return, it will be with the clothes I'm wearing, empty suitcases and my passport (a slight exaggeration, perhaps) and I'm interested to find out what kind of interrogation I'll get with that scenario ... and what my statement to them might be.

Edited July 2, 2013 by MaxYakov

[MaxYakov]

I'd feel scared if he just boarded the plane looking like that.

Racial profiling?, sure.

Ditto. We are only human.

And subject to error. I call this incompetent profiling similar to that performed by the TSA who claim they don't, of course. TSA's strategy seems to be random selection and will get random (and ridiculous) subjects and results.

The Israelis and the Russians know how to do profiling, IMHO. I've been interrogated at Moscow International by a Russian official who seemed to be highly-trained and he wasn't focusing on what I was wearing. It was my eye movements he was particularly interested in as he asked me if I was departing with Russian national heritage artifacts in my luggage. Ah, those were the pre-911 days.

Edited July 2, 2013 by MaxYakov

[MacChine]

Beside the obvious reason this story is ridiculous is that when terrorists infiltrate cultures and wish to blow up things or kill, they dress like everyone else.

I myself made the point much earlier in the thread that terrorists on operations in the west don't appear like this guy. I also couldn't agree more that his appearance is not even close to evidence or indication that he is dangerous (not only is that obvious to anyone with some logic and a bit of knowledge but I happen to live among people who look like that).

However, I think some people are making a false dichotomy on this thread and or confusing causality and correlation and that you have here: he may be on a watch list because of suspected terrorist links or jihadist sympathies. He may be dressed as he is because of his beliefs. The fact that he was dressed like that indicates strongly that he was not on an operation at the time even IF he is an Islamist extremist. It does not however mean he is not an Islamist extremist or that he will never be on an operation and this there is no reason for him to be on a list...

Perfect reply to a logical statement from MacChine

I'm not clear on this part.. thus might be the term needed, but I would disagree. Seems this logic would have us locking up all men as they might rape.

It does not however mean he is not an Islamist extremist or that he will never be on an operation and this there [?] is no reason for him to be on a list...

[SteeleJoe]

I'd feel scared if he just boarded the plane looking like that.

Racial profiling?, sure.

Ditto. We are only human.

And subject to error. I call this incompetent profiling similar to that performed by the TSA who claim they don't, of course. TSA's strategy seems to be random selection and will get random (and ridiculous) subjects and results.

The Israelis and the Russians know how to do profiling, IMHO. I've been interrogated at Moscow International by a Russian official who seemed to be highly-trained and he wasn't focusing on what I was wearing. It was my eye movements he was particularly interested in as he asked me if I was departing with national artifacts in my luggage.

1) I'm not sure you know what "profiling" means.

2) You have contradicted yourself by saying TSA employs it and then say their strategy seems to be random selection.

3) All customs agents look at things like demeanor (eye movements etc). That's not profiling.

[SteeleJoe]

I'm not clear on this part.. thus might be the term needed, but I would disagree. Seems this logic would have us locking up all men as they might rape.

It does not however mean he is not an Islamist extremist or that he will never be on an operation and this there [?] is no reason for him to be on a list...

A typo (perhaps caused by the annoying auto correct or my terrible typing skills exacerbated by typing on an iPad) that I'm surprised you couldn't work out but allow me to correct:

"It does not, however, mean he is not an Islamist extremist or that he will never be on an operation and that there is no reason for him to be on a list..."

This comment makes ZERO sense to me:

"Seems this logic would have us locking up all men as they might rape."

How does anything I say seem at all analogous to such an absurdity?

Did I say that someone who is dressed a certain way should be assumed to be guilty of something? No.

Did I in fact, aver the exact opposite? Yes.

Please explain.

[MacChine]

I didn't understand what you had written- it wasn't clear to me.. It seemed contrary -

Not just the typo or mistake made it contradictory. The last sentence made no sense in the context of the typo or mistake. Seemed you saying all Muslims are potential terrorists as all men are potential rapists ..

It's OK to not understand one another forums.

So you clarify to assert he may be on the no fly list for other reasons we don't know about?

I'd agree

Edited July 2, 2013 by MacChine

[SteeleJoe]

I didn't understand what you had written- it wasn't clear to me.. It seemed contrary -

Not just the typo or mistake made it contradictory. The last sentence made no sense in the context of the typo or mistake. Seemed you saying all Muslims are potential terrorists as all men are potential rapists ..

It's OK to not understand one another forums.

So you clarify to assert he may be on the no fly list for other reasons we don't know about?

I'd agree

In what possible way could ANYTHING I said mean, "all Muslims are potential terrorists"? Especially if I have also said I couldn't agree more that his appearance is not even close to evidence or indication that he is dangerous?

And I don't see any contradiction in saying that the fact he was wearing what he was does not mean that he is not an Islamist extremist or that he will never be on an operation or that what he was wearing is not a reason for him to NOT be on a list.

But while I am honestly surprised that you could have possibly logically interpreted what I'd said as you did, I'd be the last one to claim that my writing is easily understood as a general rule.

[ABCer]

Looks perfectly American to me.

His name too.

Edited July 2, 2013 by ABCer

[SteeleJoe]

Oh, and yes I would have thought it obvious he is on a list - if indeed he is - for reasons we don't know about: does it make any sense at all to think he is on one because of the way he was dressed at the airport? Or because he is Muslim?

It's a point I alluded to earlier: people who think his being on a list has to do with his appearance or behavior at the airport are confusing possible cause with possible correlation. And they aren't making much sense in terms of a timeline either...