1 Year Visas Vs. Permanent Residence

[lopburi3]

No I am not saying 80k income is a requirement for application or approval. What I am saying is that this figure has been mentioned as what would normally be expected of a successful applicant if other factors are average. If you have high point in another area such as service to Thailand then

tax payments might not even factor in. It is as we should judge anyone - the whole person - not one item.

I do not believe paying false tax is a key to PR but not paying is likely to be a problem for most.

[Tywais]

I have never seen the figures but I believe that the quota of PRs per country that exists is rarely used up in any given year, despite the vast number of people applying. It's highly selective.

Having said that, Tywais, you definitely have a great chance - almost certain I'd say - based on the info given.

Thanks for those comments Arsenal & HarryHerb. I posted a list of approved PRs for 2004 in another post and will put it here also:PR approvals

[Artisan]

Since I have a retirement visa and have no intention of ever working it simply doesn't make sense economically to get a PR. At 1,900 baht per year for the retirement visa I would never ever break even. The three month check ins are painless and can be done by mail if desired.

How true Gary. My retirement in Thailand has given me 13 years of hassle-free bliss. No amount of persuation will convince me that I'd be better off spending a significant amout of money just to say that I have permanent residence. As far as I and my Thai family are concerned I have something just as good as PR and I don't see any kudos in having Thai citizenship also.

I live 500 metres from the local Immigration Office and, after I have my breakfast at a local eatery, I cross the road to do my 90-day reporting...so painless. My money stays in the bank in the UK, earning tax-free interest and I import just enough to satisfy the retirement criteria.

I have done my sums on the economics of having PR compared with a renewable yearly retirement extension and weighed up the advantages and disadvantages of both, as Gary says "It doesn't make sense". PR is just not worth it in my case.............but, if I could own land with PR, then I would have to do my sums again.

[Bobcat]

They want to see you have made some valuable contribution, either through creating (a large no. of) jobs, charitable work, investment etc. Letters of recommendation from upstanding Thai citizens also counts for a lot.

These things may be important for an application for Thai citizenship, but they are certainly not for PR. Although I have a good job and pay a substantial amount of tax, I have not created a single job, nor did I provide any letters of reccommendation from upstanding Thai citizens. It's just not relevant for PR.

[Tywais]

These things may be important for an application for Thai citizenship, but they are certainly not for PR. Although I have a good job and pay a substantial amount of tax, I have not created a single job, nor did I provide any letters of reccommendation from upstanding Thai citizens. It's just not relevant for PR.

What do you attribute to your obtaining PR and what category was it based? Did you not have to have a sponser letter? I'm just beginning to assemble the necessary documents and the letters that they (imm) state that are required). I assume my applying as Expert I would need these letters certifying my position and qualifications.

[Bobcat]

I would venture that if you apply as an expert, then you would indeed need to prove your expert status. I'm not sure what proof would be sufficient, and that is something that the kind people in Room 301 would be able to tell you. I did not have any letters of support of any kind. I simply supplied that documents that were requested, nothing more. I applied in the business category, so my job, my salary and my tax payments were, I believe, the most important factors.

[Tywais]

I would venture that if you apply as an expert, then you would indeed need to prove your expert status. I'm not sure what proof would be sufficient, and that is something that the kind people in Room 301 would be able to tell you. I did not have any letters of support of any kind. I simply supplied that documents that were requested, nothing more. I applied in the business category, so my job, my salary and my tax payments were, I believe, the most important factors.

Thanks for that info. Guess I will make a trip to Bangkok and talk with them in person to be sure I understand all their requirements.

[Digger]

I would venture that if you apply as an expert, then you would indeed need to prove your expert status. I'm not sure what proof would be sufficient, and that is something that the kind people in Room 301 would be able to tell you. I did not have any letters of support of any kind. I simply supplied that documents that were requested, nothing more. I applied in the business category, so my job, my salary and my tax payments were, I believe, the most important factors.

This supports what I was told before by our immigration lawyer - he said its basically down to how much you have paid in income taxes - this seemingly is the make or break criteria - every other part of the qualifications list is secondary to this. He has even had people flunck the language test and they still got PR based on how much tax they are paying.

[Tywais]

I hadn't thought of that angle (ie what happens if your PR given on Thai wife basis in event of split).I don't know in event of divorce whether PR would be withdrawn.Somebody here will know for sure.If the answer is yes, then you are certainly better off with one year visa.If the answer is no then you would be better off (much better off) with PR.

Appears there are seven reasons for revoking PR and can be seen here: http://www.visathailand.com/modules.php?na...=article&sid=17

[Mobi]

Since I have a retirement visa and have no intention of ever working it simply doesn't make sense economically to get a PR. At 1,900 baht per year for the retirement visa I would never ever break even. The three month check ins are painless and can be done by mail if desired.

How true Gary. My retirement in Thailand has given me 13 years of hassle-free bliss. No amount of persuation will convince me that I'd be better off spending a significant amout of money just to say that I have permanent residence. As far as I and my Thai family are concerned I have something just as good as PR and I don't see any kudos in having Thai citizenship also.

I live 500 metres from the local Immigration Office and, after I have my breakfast at a local eatery, I cross the road to do my 90-day reporting...so painless. My money stays in the bank in the UK, earning tax-free interest and I import just enough to satisfy the retirement criteria.

I have done my sums on the economics of having PR compared with a renewable yearly retirement extension and weighed up the advantages and disadvantages of both, as Gary says "It doesn't make sense". PR is just not worth it in my case.............but, if I could own land with PR, then I would have to do my sums again.

That all sounds very sensible and reasonable, and I will almost certainly be following the same route as you on annual retirement extensions.

However, if money was no object, (and that may be the case), then I would seriously consider PR - if it proved possible to obtain one. I think there is something to be said for the certainty or peace of mind to be derived from not having to go and extend each year. Just imagine a scenario where you are, say 75 years old, and the government suddenly changes the rules/requirements for renewal? Ok, pretty unlikely, and if it meant hundreds or thousands of long term farang 'guests' being turfed out, there would probably be hel_l to pay. But it could happen. Who knows what kind of regime will be in power in 20 years time? We might have another 'Burma', God forbid.

Ok even holding PR might not save you, but as there would be fewer PR holders compared to retiree 'extenders', and as it would be so easy to refuse the annual application to renew the retirees under some new pretext or unreasonable requirements, I reckon they would be the first ones to go.

Just a thought - don't have sleepless nights.

Edited April 18, 2006 by Mobi D'Ark

[HarryHerb]

They want to see you have made some valuable contribution, either through creating (a large no. of) jobs, charitable work, investment etc. Letters of recommendation from upstanding Thai citizens also counts for a lot.

These things may be important for an application for Thai citizenship, but they are certainly not for PR. Although I have a good job and pay a substantial amount of tax, I have not created a single job, nor did I provide any letters of reccommendation from upstanding Thai citizens. It's just not relevant for PR.

Bobcat, perhaps your job speaks for itself or perhaps your salary is way above the average, I don't know. Or perhaps there is (as usual) one rule for Bangkok and another for upcountry applicants.

The people I know who have successfully applied (upcountry) all had to prove their status in and worth to Thai society. Although it wouldn't surprise me at all if that could be valued in monetary terms...

In fact it's probably that if you don't pay the requisite amount of tax (very likely upcountry), you have to give other evidence that you have a right to be here.

[ray23]

When you apply do you pay the 95k or is there a filing fee other then this that you would stand to lose if your rejected?

[HarryHerb]

When you apply do you pay the 95k or is there a filing fee other then this that you would stand to lose if your rejected?

http://www.thaivisa.com/300.0.html

7,600 Baht, non-refundable - see above page for more info...

[Tywais]

This supports what I was told before by our immigration lawyer - he said its basically down to how much you have paid in income taxes - this seemingly is the make or break criteria - every other part of the qualifications list is secondary to this. He has even had people flunck the language test and they still got PR based on how much tax they are paying.

This is information I just gleaned off the Internet from a Thai law firm.

"4.2 To grant approval for the residence permit application, the Immigration Commission will take into its consideration the applicants qualifications in terms of income, assets, knowledge, professional expertise, relationship with a Thai citizen, national security, personality, health, the understanding of Thai language, and other appropriate conditions due to current economic and social surroundings, and government policy."

Source: Kitti Law Office

[Bobcat]

In that case, I would say that my personality was the deciding factor!

[Artisan]

I think there is something to be said for the certainty or peace of mind to be derived from not having to go and extend each year. Just imagine a scenario where you are, say 75 years old, and the government suddenly changes the rules/requirements for renewal? Ok, pretty unlikely, and if it meant hundreds or thousands of long term farang 'guests' being turfed out, there would probably be hel_l to pay. But it could happen. Who knows what kind of regime will be in power in 20 years time? We might have another 'Burma', God forbid.

Ok even holding PR might not save you, but as there would be fewer PR holders compared to retiree 'extenders', and as it would be so easy to refuse the annual application to renew the retirees under some new pretext or unreasonable requirements, I reckon they would be the first ones to go.

Hi Mobi, glad that you enjoyed Songkhran but there will be bedlam tomorrow!!!

.....and what do you think would happen to all of the hundreds of thousands of Thai spouses and and all of the many more thousands of children of these turfed out long term farang 'guests'? Would the Thai Government accept the burden of these forcefully abandoned citizens, I don't think so. In my time in Thailand, the Thai Government has changed the rules and requirements three times, each time making the criteria more rigid and more expensive but the status quo applies to pre-existing retirees. I think that the term is "grandfathering" but I'm not sure.

But, as Benjamin Franklin said 'In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes".

Have fun tomorrow!!

[Tywais]

In my time in Thailand, the Thai Government has changed the rules and requirements three times, each time making the criteria more rigid and more expensive but the status quo applies to pre-existing retirees. I think that the term is "grandfathering" but I'm not sure.

The 'grandfather' clause was dropped apparantely to keep everything equal.

[Mobi]

Hi Mobi, glad that you enjoyed Songkhran but there will be bedlam tomorrow!!!

.....and what do you think would happen to all of the hundreds of thousands of Thai spouses and and all of the many more thousands of children of these turfed out long term farang 'guests'? Would the Thai Government accept the burden of these forcefully abandoned citizens, I don't think so. In my time in Thailand, the Thai Government has changed the rules and requirements three times, each time making the criteria more rigid and more expensive but the status quo applies to pre-existing retirees. I think that the term is "grandfathering" but I'm not sure.

But, as Benjamin Franklin said 'In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes".

Have fun tomorrow!!

H Artisan, I think I'm already in bedlam, but still confused and somewhat overwhelmed

I was thinking more of the retirement guys, who maybe getting really old and not a lot of dough left.

But you're probably right.

On second thoughts, don't want to scare you, but they could put all the abandoned families in re-education camps.

[Arsenal]

Since I have a retirement visa and have no intention of ever working it simply doesn't make sense economically to get a PR. At 1,900 baht per year for the retirement visa I would never ever break even. The three month check ins are painless and can be done by mail if desired.

How true Gary. My retirement in Thailand has given me 13 years of hassle-free bliss. No amount of persuation will convince me that I'd be better off spending a significant amout of money just to say that I have permanent residence. As far as I and my Thai family are concerned I have something just as good as PR and I don't see any kudos in having Thai citizenship also.

I live 500 metres from the local Immigration Office and, after I have my breakfast at a local eatery, I cross the road to do my 90-day reporting...so painless. My money stays in the bank in the UK, earning tax-free interest and I import just enough to satisfy the retirement criteria.

I have done my sums on the economics of having PR compared with a renewable yearly retirement extension and weighed up the advantages and disadvantages of both, as Gary says "It doesn't make sense". PR is just not worth it in my case.............but, if I could own land with PR, then I would have to do my sums again.

[/quote

You protest too much I think.As mentioned earlier there are always those who adamantly deny any advantages of PR, usually it must be said those without much chance of getting it.Those who claim to have studied the "economics" are barking up the wrong tree.It's all about security but if that doesn't matter to you, good luck mate.My aim in seeking PR is to avoid any unsettling shocks when I am older and less adaptable.I want to be able to sleep easy.

[Artisan]

You protest too much I think. As mentioned earlier there are always those who adamantly deny any advantages of PR, usually it must be said those without much chance of getting it. Those who claim to have studied the "economics" are barking up the wrong tree. It's all about security but if that doesn't matter to you, good luck mate. My aim in seeking PR is to avoid any unsettling shocks when I am older and less adaptable. I want to be able to sleep easy.

I am not 'protesting' at all, just sharing my own opinion and my own intentions and, at the same time, accepting the opinions of others, including yourself. As I have said already, if I was allowed to own land with PR I would reconsider seriously applying for PR.

Yes, my opinion (please accept that), is that there are few personal advantages of having PR, although, contrary to your assumption, my situation is more than enough to qualify me. Each one of us has his, or her, own definition of "security" and how it can be achieved and having PR isn't on my agenda.

Please do not be so presumptive in suggesting that I would be willing "to give my right arm to have PR"......never under the present circumstances. Also, please accept that I am being honest, I am not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes and, unlike yourself, I do possess all of the criteria. Have you considered purchasing one of those "Elite Cards" instead?

Thank you.

Edited April 19, 2006 by Artisan

[Arsenal]

You protest too much I think. As mentioned earlier there are always those who adamantly deny any advantages of PR, usually it must be said those without much chance of getting it. Those who claim to have studied the "economics" are barking up the wrong tree. It's all about security but if that doesn't matter to you, good luck mate. My aim in seeking PR is to avoid any unsettling shocks when I am older and less adaptable. I want to be able to sleep easy.

I am not 'protesting' at all, just sharing my own opinion and my own intentions and, at the same time, accepting the opinions of others, including yourself. As I have said already, if I was allowed to own land with PR I would reconsider seriously applying for PR.

Yes, my opinion (please accept that), is that there are few personal advantages of having PR, although, contrary to your assumption, my situation is more than enough to qualify me. Each one of us has his, or her, own definition of "security" and how it can be achieved and having PR isn't on my agenda.

Please do not be so presumptive in suggesting that I would be willing "to give my right arm to have PR"......never under the present circumstances. Also, please accept that I am being honest, I am not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes and, unlike yourself, I do possess all of the criteria. Have you considered purchasing one of those "Elite Cards" instead?

Thank you.

OK fair enough.

[Mobi]

......My aim in seeking PR is to avoid any unsettling shocks when I am older and less adaptable.I want to be able to sleep easy.

I agree. I wouldn't give my right arm foir it, but I reckon it might be worth a couple of hundred grand or so (Baht) if that's what it takes.

I guess some sleep better than others.

As for me, I've no desire to spend my declining years sleeping in cold, unwelcome England, and anyhting I can do to reduce that possibility is money well spent.

[Tywais]

......My aim in seeking PR is to avoid any unsettling shocks when I am older and less adaptable.I want to be able to sleep easy.

I agree. I wouldn't give my right arm foir it, but I reckon it might be worth a couple of hundred grand or so (Baht) if that's what it takes.

That is my primary reason for going for PR. Even after 14 years of getting one year extensions I still get seriously stressed out when it's time for renewal (3 weeks for my renewal and feeling it already).

[abdulrahman]

While I can uderstand your point of view,many of us expat that have little or no problem with the yearly reneval find the two kilo(one kilo if married)too much on top of all the other request for PM.

Good luck,though.

[bdenner]

You protest too much I think. As mentioned earlier there are always those who adamantly deny any advantages of PR, usually it must be said those without much chance of getting it. Those who claim to have studied the "economics" are barking up the wrong tree. It's all about security but if that doesn't matter to you, good luck mate. My aim in seeking PR is to avoid any unsettling shocks when I am older and less adaptable. I want to be able to sleep easy.

I am not 'protesting' at all, just sharing my own opinion and my own intentions and, at the same time, accepting the opinions of others, including yourself. As I have said already, if I was allowed to own land with PR I would reconsider seriously applying for PR.

Yes, my opinion (please accept that), is that there are few personal advantages of having PR, although, contrary to your assumption, my situation is more than enough to qualify me. Each one of us has his, or her, own definition of "security" and how it can be achieved and having PR isn't on my agenda.

Please do not be so presumptive in suggesting that I would be willing "to give my right arm to have PR"......never under the present circumstances. Also, please accept that I am being honest, I am not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes and, unlike yourself, I do possess all of the criteria. Have you considered purchasing one of those "Elite Cards" instead?

Thank you.

I for one agree with what you and GaryA have stated throughout this thread. It’s got to be a give and take thing and not just we take your money and make you feel good. Things like land ownership would make it worthwhile but – no PR for me as, even after 5 ½ years, I can’t get my tong around the Thai language. Living in Isaan doesn’t help.

It would be nice if PR to Thailand was a reciprocal thing, TW an her daughter have PR in Aust. with all the benefits eg. Medicare, Social Security etc. but we prefer to live here.

In passing and unless things have changed persons with PR had to report annually to immigration with address confirmation (same same 90 day reporting for extension holders)

[ray23]

The language aspect may or may not be difficult, depends on what level they want you to communicate.

I held many State licenses in California, each required testing and had very little to do with the actual work to be done. In each case I took a prep course studied hard and never used the information I learned again. Maybe something of that nature is avilalble? If the launguage requirements are in fact that difficult.

[teletiger]

How available would PR be to a "greased palm"?

regards

[Artisan]

As for me, I've no desire to spend my declining years sleeping in cold, unwelcome England, and anything I can do to reduce that possibility is money well spent.

Hi Mobi......Yep, Britain is the last place that I would want to live and I've lived in many places already. It's not only the cold, the apparent sadness of the people and the expense, is it? There's so much negativity and depression in the land.

As for Thailand, well...if the sh1t hits the fan and foreigners become personae non grata, I don't think that having a little PR book will guarantee anything. Your money has been paid but your still a farang. Same as many Thais, no matter how much they spend on skin-whitening products, they are still Thai. What security you might have thought you had will mean diddly squat in the circumstances.

But, I do understand that many people need that feeling of security although, as such, it is an abstract concept and won't protect you from what you have no control over. If I, as a grateful retiree in Thailand for 13 years and with a Thai family, am told to leave Thailand then there are many other Edens in this world.

[Arsenal]

How available would PR be to a "greased palm"?

regards

As far as I know not at all, particularly as Immigration only makes the recommendation on each application with the decision taken by a committee in the Ministry of Interior.From what I hear the Immigration Deoartment does a thoroughly professional job in vetting applications and the successful are broadly speaking those who deserve PR.

As to this thread I will for the time being sit on the sidelines.There are obviously a number in denial on this issue mainly I suspect because they doubt their chances of success.The brutal truth is that for anyone for whom the cost of PR is a major concern is unlikely to be eligible anyway for one reason or another.

[Arsenal]

As for me, I've no desire to spend my declining years sleeping in cold, unwelcome England, and anything I can do to reduce that possibility is money well spent.

Hi Mobi......Yep, Britain is the last place that I would want to live and I've lived in many places already. It's not only the cold, the apparent sadness of the people and the expense, is it? There's so much negativity and depression in the land.

As for Thailand, well...if the sh1t hits the fan and foreigners become personae non grata, I don't think that having a little PR book will guarantee anything. Your money has been paid but your still a farang. Same as many Thais, no matter how much they spend on skin-whitening products, they are still Thai. What security you might have thought you had will mean diddly squat in the circumstances.

But, I do understand that many people need that feeling of security although, as such, it is an abstract concept and won't protect you from what you have no control over. If I, as a grateful retiree in Thailand for 13 years and with a Thai family, am told to leave Thailand then there are many other Edens in this world.

Re my post above this sort of fellow is a good example.