Duty to inform immigration when a foreigner rent your place ?

[thairookie]

I read somewhere in this forum that the owner of the condo/house has a duty to inform the Immigration Department if a foreigner lives in your condo/house.

Has this got something to do with the embarkation card that you're required to fill up when you arrive in Thailand ? So it's not good enough that the foreigner upon arrival at the airport submitted the information to the Immigration via the embarkation arrival card ?

[steve187]

A form tm 30 is required, but hardly anyone completes it.

tm30.doc

[thairookie]

Any tax implications ?

[NanLaew]

Any tax implications ?

For the condo owner or landlord, at the moment generally (probably) no, but ultimately (eventually) yes.

[Mario2008]

T.M 30 can also be reported at the local police station if there is no immigration office in town.

[monty]

Yes, definitely a requirement.

No tax issues, computer systems are not linked up (yet). TM 30 form also does not need rental amounts or anything like that.

[pattjock]

Not only do you have to submit a TM30 form if someone is renting a place from you, you also need to submit a TM30 form if you are living in your own condo or house. If in a house in your wifes name she has to do this.

You may get away without paying tax at the moment but it's still illegal. It's your responsibility to pay tax and when they, in a few years time, get better control over this you could be facing large fines and surcharges on unpaid tax. Tax rate is about 10% depending on your total rental income, goes up to 37% if your total rental income is over 4Milj Baht per year.

Above info, and more details, from:

http://www.thephuketinsider.com/real_estate/the-inside-story-rental-income-taxation.php

[ubonjoe]

T.M 30 can also be reported at the local police station if there is no immigration office in town.

That is what it says on the form.

But in reality I doubt very much any police station would accept it or even know what it is for.

[mahjongguy]

"...you also need to submit a TM30 form if you are living in your own condo or house."

If you own the condo or you have a 30-year lease on the house then you are the house master and the form you should submit when you move in is the TM28.

I did that five years ago at Jomtien Immigration. The officer seemed pretty surprised to see it but he gladly took it and re-started my 90-day clock.

[pattjock]

"...you also need to submit a TM30 form if you are living in your own condo or house."

If you own the condo or you have a 30-year lease on the house then you are the house master and the form you should submit when you move in is the TM28.

I did that five years ago at Jomtien Immigration. The officer seemed pretty surprised to see it but he gladly took it and re-started my 90-day clock.

TM30 is the responisibility of the house master or owner. The TM28 is the responsibility of whoever is renting from you.

[mahjongguy]

"TM30 is the responisibility of the house master or owner. The TM28 is the responsibility of whoever is renting from you."

I get that, but the purpose of the TM30 is to report the presence of others. Immigration might or might not accept it for the purpose of reporting yourself. The correct form for reporting yourself, either as house master or renter, is TM28.

To be honest, I'm the only house master (condo owner / house lessee) I know of who filed a TM28 when they moved in. Everyone just seems to wait until the end of that 90-day cycle and file a TM47 and that seems to be fine.

[sarathjay]

We too were worried about this issue and asked our Condo owner who herself is a Lawyer. This was her reply......

For the immigration issue, I checked with the immigration police, it's not lessor's duty to do. It will apply only for maid or servant who house owner applies work permit for her and allows her to work and stay at the house.

So, if we have a two year contract for our Condo, can we forget the immigration issue fully? of course we will do the 90 day report on the working visa.

[monty]

We too were worried about this issue and asked our Condo owner who herself is a Lawyer. This was her reply......

For the immigration issue, I checked with the immigration police, it's not lessor's duty to do. It will apply only for maid or servant who house owner applies work permit for her and allows her to work and stay at the house.

So, if we have a two year contract for our Condo, can we forget the immigration issue fully? of course we will do the 90 day report on the working visa.

Totally wrong.

It is the duty of the owner of the condo to report any foreigner staying in her property within 24 hours of them arriving, using the TM30 form.

However, it should be of no concern to you, as it is not your duty or responsibility, unless you allow another foreigner (maybe a visiting family member) to stay in the condo without the landlady knowing about it. Then it would become your duty (as the possessor of the property) to report that particular foreigner.

[Maestro]

It just goes to show what little use some lawyers are.

My interpretation differs form Monty's. To begin with, we are looking at an English translation of the Immigration Act, but let's assume that the translation of sections 4 and 38 are reasonably accurate.

Section 4 defines the term "House Master":

Section 4 : In this Act :

...

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a

house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity

whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

...

Section 38 states who must make the TM.30 report:

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence ,

or the hotel manager where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in

the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the competent official of the Immigration

Office...

My view is that Section 38 is written wrongly. After "house master" is defined in section 4, all subsequent sections should only use this term, without adding part of the definition given in section 4. This is how I have seen it in other Thai laws that define certain terms at the beginning of the law.

Section 38 must be read in the context of section 4. The report must be made by the housemaster as defined in section 4, not by the house master or the owner or the possessor of the residence as wrongly stated in section 38.

Therefore, the real question with a rented property is who is "the chief possessor" of the property. Is it the owner, or is it the tenant? The law gives no definition of "possessor", probably because it is considered to be self-evident or perhaps it is defined by another law, eg in the mentioned "law on people act", which I cannot find. The Civil and Commercial Code does not define it, but uses the term in section 241:

Section 241. If the possessor of a property belonging to another has an obligation in his favour relating to the property possessed, he may retain

the property until the obligation is performed; but this does not apply, if the obligation is not yet due.

When I rent a car, the car rental agency remains the owner but I am the possessor during the rental period. When I rent a condo, the owner remains the owner, but possession passes on to me for the rental period.

Having said this, give the Thai text of the Immigration Act to three different lawyers and you will get five different opinions.

Immigration Act TH - thailawonline.pdf

Civil and Commercial code.pdf

[ubonjoe]

I think possessor as written in the immigration act was intended be when a person or company had a long term lease on the property and then rented all or part of it to a foreigner.

This would be the case for many hotels, apartments and etc. where a company holds the lease and owns all the furnishing and etc.

[DerkMR]

We have had a presentation held by the immigration Udon Thani some weeks ago.

Exactly this question came up and the corresponding law dates back to 1979 but has not been enforced until now.

But now they start to look into it.

To make it easier for the expats they also offer the internet way for reporting as the hotels do.

So I registered my rented house as a "2-bedroom hotel" and can report on my own as my landlady doesn't know when I come and go...

Bye,

Derk

[nosatisfaction]

A form tm 30 is required, but hardly anyone completes it.

This is also why " normally" you have to fill in the guest card in hotels, this will then be transfered into hotel guest book, available to be checked by police, I insist on the "normally"

[gamini]

We have had a presentation held by the immigration Udon Thani some weeks ago.

Exactly this question came up and the corresponding law dates back to 1979 but has not been enforced until now.

But now they start to look into it.

To make it easier for the expats they also offer the internet way for reporting as the hotels do.

So I registered my rented house as a "2-bedroom hotel" and can report on my own as my landlady doesn't know when I come and go...

Bye,

Derk

I want to do the same, so how do I register the two bedroom guesthouse on my property as a Hotel.

[lopburi3]

Probably not a very good idea tax wise.

[gamini]

The matter is a bit complicated for me. My name is the only name in the blue tamnbien bahn book even though the house belongs to my wife.(I am a PR, so I get the same as Thais) She has another house and her name is on the blue tambein baan for that house. She claims she can not have her name in more than one book.

I have a foreigner staying on my property for free in exchamge for looking after the property when we are away. And I want to resgister him. I assume then that I am the official house master and I would have to do the registration? As a foreigner (PR) would I also have to put my name on the list ?

[lockman]

HUH?? Sounds confusing to me. Our house is in (property) both my wife and my names, and of course immigration knows I live here..so I should not need to report that. That's on the 90- day reporting, etc. Meanwhile if a friend or relative from elsewhere stops over and ends up spending the night we're supposed to report that?

Or our children come to visit using a foreign passport, clearly list this address for a certain period of time on arrival?? HUH

[iancnx]

I wonder how many condo owners who rent their properties go through this process. How on earth could immigration keep up? In the case of CM I suspect this is why the stopped 90 day by post..... Just couldn't cope.

[Tomtomtom69]

We too were worried about this issue and asked our Condo owner who herself is a Lawyer. This was her reply......

For the immigration issue, I checked with the immigration police, it's not lessor's duty to do. It will apply only for maid or servant who house owner applies work permit for her and allows her to work and stay at the house.

So, if we have a two year contract for our Condo, can we forget the immigration issue fully? of course we will do the 90 day report on the working visa.

Totally wrong.

It is the duty of the owner of the condo to report any foreigner staying in her property within 24 hours of them arriving, using the TM30 form.

However, it should be of no concern to you, as it is not your duty or responsibility, unless you allow another foreigner (maybe a visiting family member) to stay in the condo without the landlady knowing about it. Then it would become your duty (as the possessor of the property) to report that particular foreigner.

In practice, who would bother with this, especially if such foreigner is only staying for one or two nights and then leaves. I have never heard of anyone doing this and since they removed the information about address registration on incoming passengers cards fewer people than in the past even know about this requirement, which I thought was more characteristic of communist nations like Vietnam and China than Thailand. In any case, I have stayed in private accommodation for years and due to leaving the country at least once every 90 days have never reported my address. In the past, I thought it was only for those staying longer than 90 days anyway.

[harrry]

I would think the housmaster is the person on the Tabian Bahn.

If you have a TB You have to report even for yourself.

[Dork]

In practice, who would bother with this, especially if such foreigner is only staying for one or two nights and then leaves. I have never heard of anyone doing this and since they removed the information about address registration on incoming passengers cards fewer people than in the past even know about this requirement, which I thought was more characteristic of communist nations like Vietnam and China than Thailand. In any case, I have stayed in private accommodation for years and due to leaving the country at least once every 90 days have never reported my address. In the past, I thought it was only for those staying longer than 90 days anyway.

Correct. In the general population almost no one knows about this requirement and even less care.

[Maestro]

I would think the housmaster is the person on the Tabian Bahn.

If you have a TB You have to report even for yourself.

The blue house registration book (TR.14) a foreigner gets in his capacity as the purchaser of a condo has no person's name in it. Only if the purchaser is Thai and if he takes up residence in his condo can he get his name added as the head of household at that address, and give permission to other Thais in his household to be added in the book as residents at that address. A Thai's registration in a TR.14 is a condition for the exercise of his rights as a Thai national, such as enrolment in government schools, voting, etc.

The foreign owner of a condo can, if he wishes, apply for a yellow house registration book (TR.14), in which his name and other personal details will then be entered in his capacity of head of household at that address. (The law requires that district offices register all foreigners in this manner but this currently not being enforced)

This means that a foreigner can be the "chief possessor" and thus the house-master of a condo in his capacity as tenant, as defined unambiguously in section 4 of the Immigration Act, without being listed in any house registration book.

[moe666]

A few years back there were a few reports here from Hua Hin that when the falang would go in and do 90 day reporting if he/she had been out of the country and upon return not reported their residence to immigration they would be fined. These were people who owned there own condo.

[ubonjoe]

A few years back there were a few reports here from Hua Hin that when the falang would go in and do 90 day reporting if he/she had been out of the country and upon return not reported their residence to immigration they would be fined. These were people who owned there own condo.

That was probably for not doing a TM28 change of address which like the TM30 is seldom enforced for home owners. But for hotels, apartments and etc. the TM30 is enforced.

[wpcoe]

A few years back there were a few reports here from Hua Hin that when the falang would go in and do 90 day reporting if he/she had been out of the country and upon return not reported their residence to immigration they would be fined. These were people who owned there own condo.

I had forgotten about those reports. I've lived in Hua Hin for 2.5 years now, and it has not been an issue when I did a 90-day report after being out of the country.

In fact, when I moved here 2.5 years ago, I went to Hua Hin Immigrations specifically to file a TM.28 to preclude any jurisdictional problems when I went for my first extension in Hua Hin, and the lady who processed the form raised an eyebrow and said they don't see this form very often these days. Regardless, she filed it and stapled a part of the form in my passport, and I've kept it there.

I'm moving back to Pattaya/Jomtien next month and will again file a TM.28, just to be safe. I will also be doing a new retirement extension within a few weeks of that.

[lopburi3]

Hua Hin was closed shortly after for a period and have not seen reports recently. The reports I recall were when people asked for free service to obtain residence certificate and this came up.