Trust, not in Thailand

[HeijoshinCool]

Another classic. There should be a separate forum for these kinds of posts, not GENERAL. Maybe ... oh .... FTF?

But if it's any consolation, OP, a contract here is usually not worth the paper it's printed on, unless you are willing to spend more than what you lost, to try and have it enforced.

Besides, many of us did a lot of cross-pollination when we first got here, but we didn't need any land.

New readers, let this be yet one more lesson, if you are considering moving here ....

Edited August 27, 2013 by HeijoshinCool

[AnotherOneAmerican]

I found out I couldn't rust my wife (American) after twenty years of marriage.

I think that trumps your neighbours behaviour.

Trust is for suckers.

In the words of the immortal Mulder.

Trust No One.

[Skint]

Just return the land as you got it. Next time get a contract drawn up and have someone of stature I.e village headman witness and sign.

[David48]

Where money is concerned, you have noooooooooooo friends. Got the T-shirt. Sadly.

Transam ... spill the beans ... I want to know your story!

[HeijoshinCool]

I found out I couldn't rust my wife (American) after twenty years of marriage.

I think that trumps your neighbours behaviour.

Trust is for suckers.

In the words of the immortal Mulder.

Trust No One.

So you could not rust your wife?

Did you wear her out, then?

[David48]

I found out I couldn't rust my wife (American) after twenty years of marriage.

I think that trumps your neighbours behaviour.

Trust is for suckers.

In the words of the immortal Mulder.

Trust No One.

So you could not rust your wife?

Did you wear her out, then?

Rust never sleeps ... Neil Young

You pay for this ... but they give that

[David48]

I rarely ever met an unreasonable Thai.

Always there were misunderstanding but we always talked it through.people tend to listen when I talk to them face to face, I respect them and respect me too.

Most of the Thais I know are very trustworthy and dependable.

+1

My experience is more limited ... but I agree.

Good negotiation is both an art-form and respected in Thailand.

To the OP ... all is not lost.

.

[amykat]

I'm confused about why you can't continue what you are doing ...other than you need to solve the water problem ...but the land hasn't been sold YET.

The owner is probably trying to motivate YOU to buy the land, now that she has you in this position. There may be no other buyer for years ...even if they found a buyer soon, it takes time to process a sale, ...I guess it depends on what/who/how. So it doesn't seem obvious to me that you have to quit what you are doing (just don't put more money into it, unless that is impossible)?

I think, the land owner hopes for 1 of 2 things: Either, she was surprised at how much time and money you put in, the success of it so far, and now feels jealous, and greedy, and stupidly thinks she is getting "ripped off" for renting to you at such a "low price" (her thinking, not mine). So what she really wants is more money and this is how she is going about a renegotiation. (I've noticed Thais don't seem to think of renegotiation as breaking their word and seem to pretend at least, to think this is normal.)

Or 2) she hopes you will buy the land for an inflated price.

I would do something like Blether suggested. Plan to get out asap, but salvage what you can so that you don't lose money ...if possible. Do renegotiate with her, use this as a reason to do it on paper this time (however, the paper can also be a waste of time, but is better than nothing, might keep the landowner from another renegotiation in 2 weeks time).

Do NOT PAY her any more money ...until and unless you got your investment out ...so agree to pay her later, or out of profits, or some way that is later.

Don't just give up and go away!

Also, at some point, you have to judge when and how ...ASK for your rent back, and your investment loss! If she wants you out?? Why not ask, use it to negotiate, if it really gets ugly, say to your wife and her family that you spoke to a lawyer, and you will sue them ...a verbal contract is still a contract. (Don't tell your wife the truth ...use her to tell everyone, only what you want them to hear. Thais don't seem good at keeping secrets, knowing what info is good to tell and not good to tell ...so tell your wife, what you want her to tell the land owner only and nothing more.) Start telling lies if you need to, tell your wife that you may need to leave Thailand now, if you lose all this money, and see if she has a solution or starts putting pressure on the land owner (friend) herself. I mean, I don't exactly know what is best in YOUR situation, but these things have worked for me here.

And from now on, don't trust your wife or her families' judgement about issues that affect you or your wallet. Thai people, for some reason, will always try to get us to do EVERYTHING without paperwork. I could list 100 things right now, that many people here, suggested I didn't need paperwork, or constantly tried to push me, make me think I am just the "crazy farang" with impossible standards, and NOBODY else is doing what I am doing, etc, etc. You just can't listen to it. Some of them do lots of things stupid ways, with no paperwork, or even with paperwork, but lots of people have a life that is total mess, due to their constant, stupid decisions.

I feel pretty sure that you can work this out if you put your mind to it!! Good Luck!

[transam]

It is about your ''heart'', Thai folk can read you like a book. They may show ''affection'' (not talking about a bird) BUT they know you from within.

[maccaroni man]

I don't see the op as a Thai badger, I have knownany Thais who fear for their life because of money their family members want from them.

[Munger]

Do not blame the Thai for this. You have to take the greatest portion of the blame, I'm afraid to say.

BUT, what about the many daily topics on tv, how honest and how much you can trust the wonderful thais ?

[StreetCowboy]

I recently borrowed $7,000 from my 91 year old Uncle.

He had the good sense to have a Solicitor draw up the contract and made me pay for the Solicitor's time ... $200 an hour.

I'm obviously in the wrong trade ...

.

I think its normal to draw up contracts and such even between friends. Its not that you don't trust them its just a grantee. Even with my own dad we put things on paper so my brother can see it too so in the event of an accident it is all clear. I trust my brother 100% its just better to have things in writing even if nothing goes wrong.

It's not just a matter of trust. The Contract should also clearly define the agreement so that there is no misunderstanding. Copying a standard bank document or similar will help identify a lot of situations and risks that you or I might not identify.

With a properly worded contract, there is much less temptation to default, because the consequences are so clearly defined, and thus there is less likely to be a dispute.

SC

[amykat]

Oh and P.S.

Don't forget to consider, that your wife/her family might be secretly wanting you to buy the land, and somehow working towards that end, because after all, it will end up to be theirs at some point, even if they are great people, and just hope to have it after you die, they could be working against you in some way.

[chrisartist]

Contract or not this attitude is typical Thai, no 2 doubts about that.

I have had many conversations with Thai acquaintances in which it has come across clearly that the Thais don't trust each other. There is no background of trust in Thailand, in contrast to northern European countries, because people behave badly towards each other here. If the *Thais* say they don't trust other Thais in general, perhaps it would be wise to listen.

[seajae]

I'm confused about why you can't continue what you are doing ...other than you need to solve the water problem ...but the land hasn't been sold YET.

The owner is probably trying to motivate YOU to buy the land, now that she has you in this position. There may be no other buyer for years ...even if they found a buyer soon, it takes time to process a sale, ...I guess it depends on what/who/how. So it doesn't seem obvious to me that you have to quit what you are doing (just don't put more money into it, unless that is impossible)?

I think, the land owner hopes for 1 of 2 things: Either, she was surprised at how much time and money you put in, the success of it so far, and now feels jealous, and greedy, and stupidly thinks she is getting "ripped off" for renting to you at such a "low price" (her thinking, not mine). So what she really wants is more money and this is how she is going about a renegotiation. (I've noticed Thais don't seem to think of renegotiation as breaking their word and seem to pretend at least, to think this is normal.)

Or 2) she hopes you will buy the land for an inflated price.

I would do something like Blether suggested. Plan to get out asap, but salvage what you can so that you don't lose money ...if possible. Do renegotiate with her, use this as a reason to do it on paper this time (however, the paper can also be a waste of time, but is better than nothing, might keep the landowner from another renegotiation in 2 weeks time).

Do NOT PAY her any more money ...until and unless you got your investment out ...so agree to pay her later, or out of profits, or some way that is later.

Don't just give up and go away!

Also, at some point, you have to judge when and how ...ASK for your rent back, and your investment loss! If she wants you out?? Why not ask, use it to negotiate, if it really gets ugly, say to your wife and her family that you spoke to a lawyer, and you will sue them ...a verbal contract is still a contract. (Don't tell your wife the truth ...use her to tell everyone, only what you want them to hear. Thais don't seem good at keeping secrets, knowing what info is good to tell and not good to tell ...so tell your wife, what you want her to tell the land owner only and nothing more.) Start telling lies if you need to, tell your wife that you may need to leave Thailand now, if you lose all this money, and see if she has a solution or starts putting pressure on the land owner (friend) herself. I mean, I don't exactly know what is best in YOUR situation, but these things have worked for me here.

And from now on, don't trust your wife or her families' judgement about issues that affect you or your wallet. Thai people, for some reason, will always try to get us to do EVERYTHING without paperwork. I could list 100 things right now, that many people here, suggested I didn't need paperwork, or constantly tried to push me, make me think I am just the "crazy farang" with impossible standards, and NOBODY else is doing what I am doing, etc, etc. You just can't listen to it. Some of them do lots of things stupid ways, with no paperwork, or even with paperwork, but lots of people have a life that is total mess, due to their constant, stupid decisions.

I feel pretty sure that you can work this out if you put your mind to it!! Good Luck!

I am thinking along the same lines actually, had all day to cool off and have settled a bit now. We were always going to buy the land eventually but her price doubled from what she originally told us and that is just too much for what it is so I am looking at continuing with what I am doing while looking for land elsewhere or if worse comes to worse just ripping all the trees up and burning them.

[weegee]

Where money is concerned, you have noooooooooooo friends. Got the T-shirt. Sadly.

Transam ... spill the beans ... I want to know your story!

David....if you need a good Lawyer (solicitor) where you are mate.....I know one...my Son....

[i claudius]

When i was quite young my father gave me a piece of advice son he said "trust nobody" and all thrrough my life i have stuck by it ,now i know there must be trust in your familly ,but after them i have stuck by what he said

[weegee]

Seajae....

Sorry to hear about your misfortune... really.

But next time don't wait this long to get advice from TVF members....There are some good posters with sound advice for problems such as yours.

[David48]

It is about your ''heart'', Thai folk can read you like a book. They may show ''affection'' (not talking about a bird) BUT they know you from within.

While it might sound a bit blasé .. but ... I taught the Thai Family early on ... don't mistake kindness for weakness.

They never have ... and they have taught me quite a few things also ... life is never a one way street.

I'm a happy man ...

[David48]

When i was quite young my father gave me a piece of advice son he said "trust nobody" and all thrrough my life i have stuck by it ,now i know there must be trust in your familly ,but after them i have stuck by what he said

I have always (in Thailand) lived by the maxim .. Trust, but verify

[devolad]

OP, am gutted for you. Sounds like you have put some real sweat into this project and it was shaping up to be a winner.

Agree with all the posters who suggest you would have been well served by recording your agreement by way of contract.BUT I reckon there is probably more than one of us contributing to this thread who have got hitched, in LOS or our country of origin, without a pre nuptial or similar protection (read "written contract")and have come financially second as a result - is pretty easy to throw stones at another persons oversight/possible mistake from the comfort of our living rooms.

In my experience most contracts (with the possible exception of loan agreements backed by security) are reference documents to record what has been agreed between the parties - they are helpful in ensuring there has been no confusion as to what has been agreed. If you are ever in the position where you have to enforce the contract, financially you are already bleeding cash. A senior Barrister once told me that if I entered into a deal with someone where I suspected I would have to rely on/enforce the contract, I was probably doing business with the wrong sort of person.

Hope you manage to sort this out - could be a case of cooling down, accepting that this ratbag has moved the goal posts, cutting a deal where her win is at the back end of the deal, and you get your win on the way through in order to attempt to keep her a bit more honest while you try and improve your position.

FYI am not certain how it works in LOS, but in many/most commonwealth countries agreements relating to real estate/property are not enforceable unless recorded in writing/ by deed - a verbal contract is not binding on either party, but like I say - this may be different in LOS.

Good Luck.

[Scully]

Seajae could you educate me as I really didn't know it was possible to get a work permit for this line of work, I always thought it would be restricted.

Be careful not to upset the policeman's mum if everything isn't legal.

[maccaroni man]

As long as you continue to work the land you are gaining squatters rights at the very minimum. If land is not selling quickly dig a hole and truck in water, drip lines will keep the plants nourished

[NeverSure]

Why don't you promise her a cut of the "lucrative takings" available by the end of next year, give yourself time to strip and salvage what you can, then of course leave her high and dry next year?

Outside that, I must say that's a repulsive bit of mentality going on there, so sorry to hear that.

It's all very well saying the OP was a fool but he's looking for practical advice now.

As the old saying goes, don't get mad.... get even.

Yep, I'd grab my chainsaw and quickly girdle every tree so that it would die. Then I'd get on my tractor and push down any improvements I'd made such as fences. Then I'd go have a beer or two and let it all go.

[harryfrompattaya]

Thai people cannot be trusted because u were stupid to not have a contract.

Is your wife trustworthy,her family/???

I had to sort out a stupid farang a few years ago,are all farangs stupid, i dont think so

Actually I put my faith in my wife and her families opinion or dont you have any faith/trust in yours. Between you and bershire the pair of you are both drop kicks and have no idea what believing in anyone is, my wife and her family are very trustworthy, dont know about yours, with your attitude they are obviously not trustworthy at all but then you probably deserve that with your attitude to others.

But they are very Stupid you believe them that make you a fool

[NeverSure]

There is more than one good reason to put agreements in writing. A major one is that the other party might die and the heirs might not honor the agreement.

Another is that when money becomes an issue, you never know who to trust as proven here.

IMHO the OP should either have gotten it in writing or if it would cause family issues to insist on a contract, then simply say no.

No one forced the OP into this situation.

[ExpatJ]

You made a business deal with no contract, and They are the idiots? Oh, lord.

[weegee]

OP, am gutted for you. Sounds like you have put some real sweat into this project and it was shaping up to be a winner.

Agree with all the posters who suggest you would have been well served by recording your agreement by way of contract.BUT I reckon there is probably more than one of us contributing to this thread who have got hitched, in LOS or our country of origin, without a pre nuptial or similar protection (read "written contract")and have come financially second as a result - is pretty easy to throw stones at another persons oversight/possible mistake from the comfort of our living rooms.

In my experience most contracts (with the possible exception of loan agreements backed by security) are reference documents to record what has been agreed between the parties - they are helpful in ensuring there has been no confusion as to what has been agreed. If you are ever in the position where you have to enforce the contract, financially you are already bleeding cash. A senior Barrister once told me that if I entered into a deal with someone where I suspected I would have to rely on/enforce the contract, I was probably doing business with the wrong sort of person.

Hope you manage to sort this out - could be a case of cooling down, accepting that this ratbag has moved the goal posts, cutting a deal where her win is at the back end of the deal, and you get your win on the way through in order to attempt to keep her a bit more honest while you try and improve your position.

FYI am not certain how it works in LOS, but in many/most commonwealth countries agreements relating to real estate/property are not enforceable unless recorded in writing/ by deed - a verbal contract is not binding on either party, but like I say - this may be different in LOS.

Good Luck.

Absolutely Correct......................Beat Advice I seen so far....heed this!!!!!!

[jackr]

Yep, if she won't negotiate and is of the mind to sell elsewhere because it is now 'looking so good', rip it all out and put it back as it was--perhaps with the addition of vast amounts of Round-up. A lot of this type of thing happens here where the good Buddhists rent a place out--or whatnot--the nice farang does it up, then the rent doubles, etc. Happened to Ajarn a while back and possibly lead to him topping himself. Disgusting behaviour (and yes it happens everywhere), but really, this kind of thing is de rigueur here, even among their own. Try to keep in mind you are dealing with dangerous kids and you won't go wrong in future.

[MegaRanter]

OP, you just have to come up with a counter offer.

Seems you let the wife say for you. They dont like it.

Even before I spoke Thai, my wife did the translation for me, but I made sure we understood ourselves. At a time no one would talk with her, I had to be there.

If you were the one that made the contract even if it was word of mouth, they would respect that. Some times some rich Thais tend to look down of people they know are backed up monetarily by farang. Especially if they figure the faring don't have much to say or that the farang is being taken for a ride.