Trust, not in Thailand

[rene123]

Not often am I speechless ... though you have achieved that with this post ...

A joy to behold and read that ... your perspective on Thailand is truly unique and I am sure, not shared by many, if any.

Good Luck to you Sir.

x2

That is twice in one day that I'm struck dumb. I can hardly believe what I just read! There was a similar dumbfounding reply in the woman's forum.

[flyingdoc]

This is always a difficult area.

I have worked with my Manager in the Anti-aging field of Medicine in the U.K for 15 years now. We have no written contract, no exclusivity, yet neither of us would dream of letting the other down.

However, that is rare, and however friendly one might be in Thailand, it is always worth getting a legal contract drawn up. It does not imply that you are distrusting, but purely sensible. You can always alleviate any queries by saying that it is primarily for their benefit, and that should allay any worries.

The two major problems I have found in Thailand are:

1. Without a contract, personal agreements can be misunderstood at best, and broken at the drop of a hat, at worst, if money is involved..

2. More seriously, I have found that in one or two cases, even with a written contract, it is sometimes assumed that this is only a bargaining point, and the real negotiations take place after that! Truly a horrifying scenario for the Western mind !

Lastly, one contributor made an eminently sensible suggestion, that in this case where greed has certainly taken over, don't cry over 'split milk' and lose everything -= offer to cut the owner / policeman in on a 50- 50 %, with a business plan, showing just how profitable it will be over the next 5 years, and woo them on to the idea, rather than just lose everything, and have your wife crying over it. Many things in Thailand re legal matters and property may end up 'sticking in the gullet' and require compromise, but then you are not living in the West, and suing anyone would be expensive and impracticable! Adapt and win through, is the name of the game!

[kannot]

My wife's grandfather had a lovely big teak Thai house he built over a number of years. He also liked a drink by all accounts. His wife's brother knowing this got him blind drunk one night and tricked him into signing his house over to him and then kicked him out the next day. His own sister and brother in law. I hear stories like this regularly in Thailand. There are some truly horrible people here. And yes, you get horrible people everywhere but nowhere near this extent. With the government, police force, judiciary and countless stories of people like this I am really beginning to believe that Thailand is rotten to the core.

Thai basher !

Correction - Rotten Thai basher.

The guy who sells me pineapple every day for 10 baht is ok.

I grow 100000 pineapples on my land you could buy one for 5 baht any place by me.............TRUST NO ONE

[Berkshire]

In the west we have the concept of My word is my bond.

I'm not sure what "west" you're talking about, but in America, the only time the "my word is my bond" thing works is among drug lords and old world organized crime syndicates. With everyone else, you need a contract.

[Aussieroaming]

Give the OP a break...he's venting

I'm sure he has plenty of Thai friends that he can trust

I think the neighbor might just be pushing for a percentage of the business

My opinion is offer her a small regular percentage of the business, after all she has let you do a lot of creative gardening on her land.

[seajae]

Give the OP a break...he's venting

I'm sure he has plenty of Thai friends that he can trust

I think the neighbor might just be pushing for a percentage of the business

My opinion is offer her a small regular percentage of the business, after all she has let you do a lot of creative gardening on her land.

latest is she wants 4 million baht for the land and I refuse to pay it. I will be moving all the trees off the land before my time runs out then destroying all the work I have put into it, all fencing smashed/removed, all top soil/additives removed etc, I will leave it bare. I was pretty upset at the time because I had just finished getting it all done properly and trees growing beautiful, first set of cross pollinations underway and it is all gone(move will cause pods to abort) now till I set it up again.

For those interested/querying, I am allowed to do this because no one else in Thailand does my methods of cross pollination etc and this for me is a hobby(same as fishing), my website is there to give free information on these trees and how to go about doing everything with them because I just love working with them and for that I do not need a wp, if I start selling them, that is different set of circumstances. I am known around the world for what I do with them and I just like to share it.

Edited September 27, 2013 by seajae

[Mr Average]

 

Give the OP a break...he's venting

I'm sure he has plenty of Thai friends that he can trust

I think the neighbor might just be pushing for a percentage of the business

My opinion is offer her a small regular percentage of the business, after all she has let you do a lot of creative gardening on her land.

latest is she wants 4 million baht for the land and I refuse to pay it. I will be moving all the trees off the land before my time runs out then destroying all the work I have put into it, all fencing smashed/removed, all top soil/additives removed etc, I will leave it bare. I was pretty upset at the time because I had just finished getting it all done properly and trees growing beautiful, first set of cross pollinations underway and it is all gone(move will cause pods to abort) now till I set it up again.
For those interested/querying, I am allowed to do this because no one else in Thailand does my methods of cross pollination etc and this for me is a hobby(same as fishing), my website is there to give free information on these trees and how to go about doing everything with them because I just love working with them and for that I do not need a wp, if I start selling them, that is different set of circumstances. I am known around the world for what I do with them and I just like to share it.

"my website is there to give free information"

You domain, frangipani.asia, expired on September 5 and has not been renewed.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Mr Average

[lormakmak]

I think that is wrong to say that Thais are untrustworthy. Please do not make generalisations about Thais and instead you should make notes and understand their background and also their history and anthropological evolution and in fact sympathise with them but not necessary befriend them but rather just stay away from them to avoid any trouble.

You see unlike most Western Nations or even Asian Nations, civilisation in thailand began much much later, and just over a few decades ago, most were still living in the trees. The sudden appearance of farangs enticed by their local slim bodies and also their flexibility in doing anything perverse for the sake of money, brought a lot of sudden economic progress to the country which many still today are not able to grasps yet. As a society , they really do not understand the concept of friendship, give and take, love etc even with their own kinds , so do not expect much from them . They were never colonised by any Western countries , hence their concept of undertanding other kinds of intellectual concepts or emotional bonding concepts is not there. They were indirectly colonised by the Chinese, hence the country is run today by the Thai chinese who brough with them the things like prostitution, drugs, tea money and corruption etc.They are also used to the system of patronising richer or more powerful people and even more yellowish complexions as a result of this indirect colonisation.

Its always best to just stay away from locals. If you are a sex tourist or expat, well do whatever you want with them but never develop a realtionship and also just use them and throw them away. Do not even pity them. If you are a business entrepreneur, simply make your money, do not teach the locals too much, keep a low profile and just enjoy yourself here. Stay away from Government Servants, Politicians, Policemen, Military Men etc as these are all crooks so are their immediate families. Those that can speak English well or seem educated, well...even stay away from them as you will end up with scams etc.

Thais are generally harmless people and are nice if you just stay away from them and simply use them for your needs. Do not ever think of helping them when they are in need or even contribute to their progress and things will be ok.

Thailand is a great country and a great place to make money and enjoy if you know how and off course stay away from anything dubious or illegal. Have fun in Thailand and stop generalising the local inhabitants or making negative things about them. They can not help the way they evolved.

I wish I had read this before I married one and she cleared off once she had got her visa to stay in the UK

[Berkshire]

you are prolific on here to the point that as soon as someone says something negative about the locals you jump on it like some guardian angel of the thai people....

end of the day thailand, spain, greece or wherever us white people go and try to settle and have a life on the whole the locals of that particular location get plenty of satisfaction making it difficult for us and would be happier(I use that word loosely as most of them are miserable) if we just cleared off....you included!

the OP has put faith in his extended family friend of 40 years and made a mistake....you were all over him like a cheap suit and you make a habit of this kind of thing on here....

pick the bones out of that

That's quite an exaggeration, norrono, and you know it. I only get annoyed when someone paints all Thais as being a certain way because of the actions of one or a few Thais. Wouldn't you agree that that's despicable behavior? Perhaps not. You seem to have your own issues with the Thais. So when someone bashes on the locals, you love nothing but to jump on the bandwagon. Something you're proud of?

You'll find in my posting history that if I attack anyone, they sure as heck deserved it. I'm no guardian angel, just someone who gets tired of the same BS posted on these forums day after day. But there are some cool people on these forums. They know who they are.

[norrona]

you are prolific on here to the point that as soon as someone says something negative about the locals you jump on it like some guardian angel of the thai people....

end of the day thailand, spain, greece or wherever us white people go and try to settle and have a life on the whole the locals of that particular location get plenty of satisfaction making it difficult for us and would be happier(I use that word loosely as most of them are miserable) if we just cleared off....you included!

the OP has put faith in his extended family friend of 40 years and made a mistake....you were all over him like a cheap suit and you make a habit of this kind of thing on here....

pick the bones out of that

That's quite an exaggeration, norrono, and you know it. I only get annoyed when someone paints all Thais as being a certain way because of the actions of one or a few Thais. Wouldn't you agree that that's despicable behavior? Perhaps not. You seem to have your own issues with the Thais. So when someone bashes on the locals, you love nothing but to jump on the bandwagon. Something you're proud of?

You'll find in my posting history that if I attack anyone, they sure as heck deserved it. I'm no guardian angel, just someone who gets tired of the same BS posted on these forums day after day. But there are some cool people on these forums. They know who they are.

Try taking a break from it all then is the only thing I can say to that....but you do seem to make it priority, are you the voice of the local people?

no exaggerations my end but I stand by the fact that people who move to other countries will vent about the locals, whether they've been stitched up or not, deal with it....

[seajae]

 

Give the OP a break...he's venting

I'm sure he has plenty of Thai friends that he can trust

I think the neighbor might just be pushing for a percentage of the business

My opinion is offer her a small regular percentage of the business, after all she has let you do a lot of creative gardening on her land.

latest is she wants 4 million baht for the land and I refuse to pay it. I will be moving all the trees off the land before my time runs out then destroying all the work I have put into it, all fencing smashed/removed, all top soil/additives removed etc, I will leave it bare. I was pretty upset at the time because I had just finished getting it all done properly and trees growing beautiful, first set of cross pollinations underway and it is all gone(move will cause pods to abort) now till I set it up again.

For those interested/querying, I am allowed to do this because no one else in Thailand does my methods of cross pollination etc and this for me is a hobby(same as fishing), my website is there to give free information on these trees and how to go about doing everything with them because I just love working with them and for that I do not need a wp, if I start selling them, that is different set of circumstances. I am known around the world for what I do with them and I just like to share it.

"my website is there to give free information"

You domain, frangipani.asia, expired on September 5 and has not been renewed.

that was the domain I was going to use if it progressed to a business, thefrangipaniman is my website, been about for several years if you care to check, it is well known throughout frangi/plumeria growers around the world. The land was falling through, did you expect me to set up a new website for nothing, I keep my free site for everyone and always will, also you left off thaifrangipani and that has been let go as well, not going to pay for something that will not get any use

[jpeg]

Thai people cannot be trusted because u were stupid to not have a contract.

Is your wife trustworthy,her family/???

I had to sort out a stupid farang a few years ago,are all farangs stupid, i dont think so

Agree. The OP is talking about one Thai who is/was untrustworthy. ONE Thai. Which in his brain means ALL Thais are untrustworthy. So typical of the mentality we see on TV and makes me not one bit sympathetic to the OP's plight.

Really? This story doesn't surprise me one bit. They don't even trust each other. They tell me 'we cheat/lie to each other too' . And how is it I can order anything from overseas with a Thai debit card (wouldn't take a Thai credit card as a gift), but can't even book a domestic flight with it?

Trust? No such animal in this here jungle. And that goes for many farang here too.

BTW Thai contracts Yeah if you've a few hundred thousand to spend on some inept Thai 'lawyer' to implement it and a LOT of time on your hands to see it through the Thai court system.

Edited September 27, 2013 by jpeg

[jpeg]

A contract between parties is great to have, but as a lawyer friend says, the contract is only as good as the goodwill of the parties to that contract.

If the person causing the problem isn't a willing party in creating a solution, then you need to go to court. Court action, particularly civil action, can drag on for years, and cost serious money during which time she may not be able to sell the land, but your plants will be

There is possibly an added problem in that you may not have a work permit for what you're doing, and she knows that. An added problem is that her relative is a BiB.

My advice would be to secure an alternative piece of land (lease this time, please) organize the equipment to move in and clear the whole lot out in a day, plants, soil, fencing, and any other improvements. A day when the owner won't be anywhere near the place would be even better.

If the WP issue is real, spite may take over, and you'll be dropped in to the authorities, so that needs consideration on how you may tackle the problem if it arises.

Alternatively, you could just write it off and start again?? How much money is involved?

Actually its not all that much, money wise I have spent around 30 to 40 thousand baht setting it up plus the plants, there is a hell of a lot of hours in work in getting the soil up to scratch and keeping the block clear of weeds plus regular feeding, watering and turning over the soil around them. The biggesr problem is the establishment of the trees, they have to be in healthy, full growth modes for me to be able to do my cross pollinations(I am one of only a few world wide that does it and the only one on Thailand), I have also planted out my first lot of succesfully crossed seedlings(9 months for the pods to ripen), moving them now will bugger up the growth plus it will cause the newly crossed varieties that have worked to abort their pods too. There is a lot of work and time in getting the crosses to take so it will cause a lot of problems for me and take at least another 12 months to get to the same place I am in now with them. Dont really know if I want to go through it all again, I am 60 now, starting to get a bit long in the tooth to do all the necessary setting up all over.

She WANTS over and above what you say the land is worth. Doesn't mean she'll get it. Just leave your trees until they're mature enough and then start again, preferably on a bit of government land (cheap as chips to rent). Then see how the greedy cow gets on with selling her bald patch of dust.

[rayongchelsea]

Just had our agm in our condo.

we have issues with the developer.

One Thai stood up and stated this is how Thais behave towards each other..so it's a perceived truth amongst Thais..I tend to support this view.

This isn't Thai bashing, this is reality..any commercial transaction..no trust at all.

[geronimo]

Take it on the chin, try to find a way to change her mind but if that cannot be done then learn a lesson and move on. Sometimes life deals us a lousy hand but the cards get shuffled regularly. Go through the anger and all the emotions you will feel and soon enough your drive and motivation will return.

[norrona]

Just had our agm in our condo.

we have issues with the developer.

One Thai stood up and stated this is how Thais behave towards each other..so it's a perceived truth amongst Thais..I tend to support this view.

This isn't Thai bashing, this is reality..any commercial transaction..no trust at all.

the same people that call this 'thai bashing' are those same kind of people who calls anyone who criticizes 'islam' racists....same same

[cpofc]

Tell me of someplace where it is not a reality. I just counted up the people I really trust using the fingers of my one hand, and got change.

'Love all, trust few'. I think it was Mr Shakespeare who said that about 400+ years ago. Nothing I have experienced in my lifetime would make me want to disagree with him.

On a lighter note. One great test of trust is to lend someone a good book.

[zydeco]

Give the OP a break...he's venting

I'm sure he has plenty of Thai friends that he can trust

I think the neighbor might just be pushing for a percentage of the business

My opinion is offer her a small regular percentage of the business, after all she has let you do a lot of creative gardening on her land.

latest is she wants 4 million baht for the land and I refuse to pay it. I will be moving all the trees off the land before my time runs out then destroying all the work I have put into it, all fencing smashed/removed, all top soil/additives removed etc, I will leave it bare. I was pretty upset at the time because I had just finished getting it all done properly and trees growing beautiful, first set of cross pollinations underway and it is all gone(move will cause pods to abort) now till I set it up again.

For those interested/querying, I am allowed to do this because no one else in Thailand does my methods of cross pollination etc and this for me is a hobby(same as fishing), my website is there to give free information on these trees and how to go about doing everything with them because I just love working with them and for that I do not need a wp, if I start selling them, that is different set of circumstances. I am known around the world for what I do with them and I just like to share it.

Are you sure about taking this type of action? If close family of your nemesis is in fact upper level police, they could cause you real trouble if you try and strip the property. BTW, I don't think you got worked over by not having a contract. I don't think having a contract would have helped at all. Might makes right and power comes out of the end of a gun in many parts of this country. Land, rent, infrastructure is a toxic brew, here, I think.

[johnlandy]

"I realize we should have had a contract written up which I wanted but the family said that she was very trustworthy and would not do anything bad, looks like their idea of a good friend has flown, money beats everything here obviously."

What you said.

Don't suppose verbal contracts hold up in Thailand?

Verbal. you can forget about it.

Written. It might be OK for a Thai but for a non-Thai almost as worthless as a verbal.

TIT, and forget it at your peril.....

[Johnniey]

Last year we were looking to lease some land close to our home so I could start my cross pollination business, didnt want anything large, just a small block of land up to a rai. A very good friend of my wifes family heard what we were doing and offered us the block next to her new house, it was only around the corner so we took her up. She offered it at very reasonable rent and said we could use it for as many years as needed and always had the chance to buy it at a good price. I spent the next few months having the land cleared, having several truck loads of good top soil brought in and levelled then had a fence put around it. I was originally pumping water from a nearby dam but I wasnt happy with it so I was hooked in to the water supply and had taps stationed around the block. We now have 400 trees growing there plus a few hundred seedlings from succesful crosses, some of the varieties are unique world wide to me and were brought over from my collection in Australia plus others are what I have developed here. I have invested in some excellent fertilizer(from a fellow TV member), regularly spray to kill all the weeds in and around the block, brought in several thousands worth of additives for the soil(poo, coconut chips, blended soil, rice husks etc) to improve the growth medium around the trees and I even water and prune the fruit trees the owner had planted in it, when I started you couldnt even see them amongst the weeds.

ON Sunday while I was recording my latest croses my wife dropped in and spoke to the owner, she informed us that she wanted to sell the block now that it was looking so good, no mention of the fact we had paid for a years rent and still had a lot of months to go or what we were supposed to do with all the trees or aboput the money spent setting the block up. TO say I wasnt happy would be an under statement, yesterday when I went there to water all the seedlings we had no water and when I walked around the neighbours fence to see why I found all the pipes connecting us had been removed, no water equals a lot of dead trees and seedlings and a good way to make us leave. Her son is the head policeman at the police training centre(the house is his) not far away so doing anything stupid is out of the question, I realize we should have had a contract written up which I wanted but the family said that she was very trustworthy and would not do anything bad, looks like their idea of a good friend has flown, money beats everything here obviously.

We are left in a very hard position, I was hoping to start selling by the end of the year but that is now gone and it looks like I will lose everything I have invested in this and likely the trees as well, I had several people looking at buying from overseas but I cannot start cuttings now as it is the wet season so thats gone too. Just goes to show that thai people cannot be trusted at all where money is concerned, we looked at buying the block but she wants an unrealistic price that is almost twice what she originally told us last year. Not much we can do about it, wife has been in tears for the last 2 days over it, I am just getting more angry by the minute and extremely frustrated, really feel like going around there and taking it out on the new house but will restrain myself, XXXXXXX thai friends........

You or your wife have done something to offend the Thai.

You were working illegally as you planned to sell.

Sent from my GT-I9152 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[itchybum]

No such thing as a handshake deal here or as good as your word...its that simple.

She back stabbed you on your arrangement, I would do the same in return and do as one poster mentioned, cut a deal where she will benefit from it at the end and then change your mind, just as she did and don't forget to remind her of that when the time comes.

[willyumiii]

Face, face, face..

Always so much concern about the loss of face in Thailand.

You say you fear your wife's family has lost face cuz you got screwed by a money hungry land owner.

Why doesn't the person who has screwed you worry about losing face over what they have done to you and your family?

Do you think if you made it well known to everyone she knows it might change her actions?

If only good people worry about losing face it only makes good people good.

Almost like locks keeping honest people honest..a dishonest thief breaks in anyway!

Still baffled by the concept of losing face in Thailand!

[metisdead]

A number of inflammatory posts and replies have been removed as well as posts containing profanity.

[ravip]

In "farangland" are all investments and the like done without contracts?

I am sorry for your predicament and hope you find some way to get out of it.

Would be good if you avoid comments such as "Just goes to show that thai people cannot be trusted"

[ravip]

Just had our agm in our condo.

we have issues with the developer.

One Thai stood up and stated this is how Thais behave towards each other..so it's a perceived truth amongst Thais..I tend to support this view.

This isn't Thai bashing, this is reality..any commercial transaction..no trust at all.

the same people that call this 'thai bashing' are those same kind of people who calls anyone who criticizes 'islam' racists....same same

And the "farang bashers"? Same category, or another?

[willyumiii]

You had no contract.

You were working toward selling your trees.Did you have a licence for this kind of business?

I believe growing anything for sale is against the law for anyone who is not a Thai in Thailand.

You were working ,if for pay or not, Then a work permit is required.

Did you have a work permit?

Her son is a high ranking officer too?

You have made yourself very vulnerable by not covering the required bases.

And now you are advertising it on the internet.

You think only farangs follow the content on these sites ?

Thai law enforcement uses Facebook to find suspicious activity.

It is a great law enforcement tool.

This is no secret.

My advise?

Learn your lesson and consider this a cheap one.

Follow the rules in the future.

Keep a low profile.

Keep quiet about this.

Don't hang yourself!

Good luck!

[StreetCowboy]

In "farangland" are all investments and the like done without contracts?

I am sorry for your predicament and hope you find some way to get out of it.

Would be good if you avoid comments such as "Just goes to show that thai people cannot be trusted"

It goes to show that people who won't draw up contracts can't be trusted...

[harryfrompattaya]

In the west we have the concept of My word is my bond.

I'm not sure what "west" you're talking about, but in America, the only time the "my word is my bond" thing works is among drug lords and old world organized crime syndicates. With everyone else, you need a contract.

Better way to do business

[ravip]

"In the west we have the concept of My word is my bond."

So, in the west 'contract' is something you read in your history books when at high school?

[itchybum]

"In the west we have the concept of My word is my bond."

So, in the west 'contract' is something you read in your history books when at high school?

No...but a contract is often not required between 40 + year friends with an ounce of dignity.