Why I’m worth it: in defense of the dowry

[Straight8]

I have a restaurant so i get some great stories, here's another one, a guy meets a girl at Nana plaza,but,she only just started and he was the first guy (right) he decided to take her out of there before she became like the rest..lol.. so he is with this girl from the back of Kon khean some where and they decide to get married, so back to the village, make the arrangement,he fixes up the house, buys a new toyota for the family...etc, one day before the wedding she says,take out 500,000 from the bank,just to show you paid dowry, you get it back after the wedding, so he does and he flies in relatives from all over Thailand, they get married, the monks come around and he pays the monks 20,000, anyway, the next day the celebrations continue, she says we have to make donation at the temple for the monks,he says, i did that yesterday and wheres the 500,000?, she turns and slaps him in the face in front of everyone and starts calling him names, kinoch being the preferred name, every one looking at him and getting up, this money for my family,they raise me,you have to pay, having now spent around 1.5million baht, he walked to his car and drove away,never to return, ended up teaching English at a school in Chiang mai.

I don't even own a restaurant and I have some great stories!!!

As for this poor guy walking to his car and driving off never to return.. well that was she would have been hoping for.

Mission objective accomplished... next!!!!!

[transam]

The blind are always lead.

[StaffsShot]

I don't agree with the dowry in this day and age.

My view is that the Thai girl and family should see beyond it and look more at what the westerner can bring to the family by way of long term opportunities. If the western guy wants to help financially it should be his choice. Not a condition.

And that's the sensible reply to this thread

[F4UCorsair]

To Internationallawreview #156: Man, you are full of so much anger. Really sorry I hurt your feelings, but someone had to respond to your elitist dissertation of why Thai culture needs further development. This will be my only reply to you, as I fear we're heading way off track of the topic.

. One of the characteristics I love most about Thais who are mostly Buddhist (97%) is their acceptance of all people; in fact, they reject the idea of being better than anyone else.

You must know a different type of Thai Buddhist than me, not saying that they are all arrogant

But certainly some are, and those are the ones who think they are better than anyone else.

There's an old line nontabury:

If you think there's good in everyone, you haven't met everyone!!

[dudu]

sin sod is buying a woman it is against my beliefs and I will not do it. I have told the girl I am living with this so we are staying single. if I got pressured into giving sin sod I would walk away.

I recently married my Thai lady, she's never been married, no kids, no brothers or sisters, no dad.

Owns her own house and land other side of the village. As an only child her mum and Aunt bought the house for her.

But it's against my principle to pay any dowry. She spoke with big yai but I stood firm.

She's a real keeper but I was ready to put off the wedding. I also explained in UK the brides family usually pays for the wedding

We had a fantastic day and I get on really well with her mum

I do believe some families see it as an excuse to get extra cash out of the perceived to be wealthy falang

This scares the sh*t out of me.

dudo, u should change your handle to dummy

I pity u, cos u chose the wrong girl and you're obviously bitter

Next time choose a good one

Please do not get insulting, nothing negative in it for you...yet!

[rgs2001uk]

To Internationallawreview #156: Man, you are full of so much anger. Really sorry I hurt your feelings, but someone had to respond to your elitist dissertation of why Thai culture needs further development. This will be my only reply to you, as I fear we're heading way off track of the topic.

As to my assertaining that no other westerners get it, you're wrong. Many do, if not most. Just skim through this topic to see how many agree with the OP.

Points-counterpoints, et. al. Sorry, but the topic deals with our opinions on dowries & not as an exercise in HS debate protocols (i.e., I doubt anyone would ever read TV articles if topics were so anally debated). Still, to affirm your keen intellectual skills & keep it simple, I actually praised your "essay" in my reply.

Thailand is a wonderful country to live in, which is why most of us ended up there. If you're so rubbed by Thai culture, why not settle elsewhere? Why did you choose to marry a Thai girl when you resent her country so much?

And defending missionaries who try so hard to change a very peaceful people whose hearts are made of gold? You mean, turn them into Christians & fill their hearts with hatred towards everyone who does not believe like they do? Put labels on others to dimish their importance as life forms, simply because they don't believe as you do? Don't Muslims do that? Jews? If every group on earth is "chosen," how can we possibly ever get along on this planet? Oh, you mean by force? Crusader-like force? So much tension ... One of the characteristics I love most about Thais who are mostly Buddhist (97%) is their acceptance of all people; in fact, they reject the idea of being better than anyone else.

All I can say is jai-yen-yen. You'll be much happier in life if you can let go of all that anger & hatred.

I leave you with a quote from President Bill Clinton in Time Magazine, 10-01-2012: "We have to define the meaning of our lives as something other than our ability to control someone else's."

If you're so rubbed by Thai culture,

Ah now we get to the crux of the matter, "Thai culture"

For many farang they are passed off with any old tosh and it is explained away as being "Thai culture"

The reallity is, its nothing of the sort.

Ever been to a Thai/Khmer funeral for example and compared it to say a Thai/Chinese funeral in Bkk, the same event taking place in the same country and being attended by Thai people, they are as alike as night and day.

Lets also take another example, a monk ordination party held in say North Issan (Lao) and compare with the same event taking place in NST (southern), again two completely differing events.

Why did you choose to marry a Thai girl

For me personally, I married a girl who happened to be Thai, I didnt marry her because she was Thai.

As for my wife and her family, they are Mon, I cant be bothered to list the differences, suffice to say Songkran is a prime example.

The truth here is, most of the Thai/farang marriages that take place simply wouldnt take place amonst Thai/Thai partners.

[rgs2001uk]

^^^, in addition to the above, just noticed this brilliant observation in post # 160,

There is, of course, the unnofficial cast system that Thai generally follow

Adds weight to my point above that many of the Thai/farang marriages wouldnt take place among Thai/Thai couples.

[David48]

Where to begin on this one. . .

I can say, warmly, welcome back.

Your intellect and viewpoint was been missing on the forum.

Cheers ...

[transam]

Where to begin on this one. . .

I can say, warmly, welcome back.

Your intellect and viewpoint was been missing on the forum.

Cheers ...

Yeh, I can take a breather now.

[benalibina]

Where to begin on this one. . .

I can say, warmly, welcome back.

Your intellect and viewpoint was been missing on the forum.

Cheers ...

Yeh, I can take a breather now.

All is going in the right direction.

[metisdead]

Way off topic posts and replies have been removed. Discussions of the Myanmar Rohingyas, the "Face of Buddhist Terror" and the Muslim fighters in the south of Thailand would be different topics altogether and not related to this topic at all.

[SeabagsFull]

The following quote is from a friend of mine's email to me nearly three years ago:

"We talked about cultural variables and Thai/western marriage customs. All of us take issue with the paying of [dowries for] our wives families. I did not pay anything to my wife's family. My wife and I have only a civil marriage. When I did not pay, I totally insulted my wife's family and humiliated my wife in front of her friends. She is uncomfortable to say she is married as her friends will ask, "why didn't we get invited to the wedding party?” When she says she did not have a wedding party, they silently question her reasons for marriage. It is tough for her."

[internationallawreview]

The following quote is from a friend of mine's email to me nearly three years ago:

"We talked about cultural variables and Thai/western marriage customs. All of us take issue with the paying of [dowries for] our wives families. I did not pay anything to my wife's family. My wife and I have only a civil marriage. When I did not pay, I totally insulted my wife's family and humiliated my wife in front of her friends. She is uncomfortable to say she is married as her friends will ask, "why didn't we get invited to the wedding party?” When she says she did not have a wedding party, they silently question her reasons for marriage. It is tough for her."

One could wonder about his choice of a wife who does not take pride purely in being married to him.

Sounds like they should have had a wedding....It seems that the friends of your friend's wife are confused by a marriage with no wedding (as a dowry would not be their business).

A dowry does not equate to a wedding, and now many weddings go forward without one. I am attending one next month myself between a nice lady from KK and a man from Michigan. She takes pride in sharing that she would not 'accept' a dowry....

As for the implications... your friend should have Paid to make his wife Comfortable with the friends? Well, a rude awakening is short at hand for those who believe their comfort (and face) should and can be so easily paid up. The cost of a home is often less than that of a dowry - Something that people normally work for decades to earn is to be had at the beckoning call of 'comfort'.

What message does this deliver to daughters?

What are these examples encouraging daughters to do in the future?

In an economy running along curves of ever increasing inflation against flattening incomes, those men who continue to teach Thais that 'comfort' is so easily bought ill prepare them for the necessary leveling that will come in the world (and Thai) economy. Simply put, there is no easy money, and people will find more and more they have to work for every bit of comfort. Concerns about face and neighborhood whispers will pale in families who have not prepared themselves to work hard in such an economy. In the experience of real suffering - struggling for survival, gossip and odd glances don't seem so tough.

It is a sad example to daughters not only in terms of understanding economic value and function but also in terms of human value, love, and friendship.

[SeabagsFull]

One could wonder about his choice of a wife who does not take pride purely in being married to him.

Sounds like they should have had a wedding....It seems that the friends of your friend's wife are confused by a marriage with no wedding (as a dowry would not be their business).

A dowry does not equate to a wedding, and now many weddings go forward without one.

It is a sad example to daughters not only in terms of understanding economic value and function but also in terms of human value, love, and friendship.

Your points are well taken, Internationallawreview. They precisely describe the way we would view the subject should the idea ever be pushed in the west. I think the key to the discussion lies in understanding the traits of Thai people versus those of farang, & whether or not we believe outside influence is acceptable.

Thai people do not consider independence as a valued trait; in fact, interdependence is perhaps their #1 virtue, according to Thailand Fever by Chris Pirazzi & Vitida Vasant. I believe it is this interdependence that makes them so enjoyable to be around, that they purposefully avoid confrontation as a matter of respect for other life.

The OP explains very well how the dowry is, in fact, connected to the wedding. Yes, some weddings do go forward without a dowry, an occasion that's been hashed throughout this thread.

From your past posts on this subject, it seems you would change Thai culture to one that you believe is better for them. This is where we part; I am not wise enough to mandate that anyone else live according to my beliefs. I think further discussion on this point would be fruitless .. at least for me.

[SeabagsFull]

One could wonder about his choice of a wife who does not take pride purely in being married to him.

So now you would judge this man's choices &, by trying to shame his wife, extend your desire to dictate values & behavioral controls beyond cultures to individuals anywhere?

I will respond to you this one last time; I feel that my inputs to this discussion have fallen on deaf ears, that you are who you are & will never understand that human diversity is what makes life on earth so interesting & marvelous.

My friend was a well respected ajan in Isaan, & his relationship with his wife & daughters are as warm as any I know.

His failure to pay a dowry had a negative effect on his family & circle of friends. That is the reality. You simply cannot psychoanalyze that. No matter what theoretical laws or hypotheses you put forth, nothing can change the aftermath & fallout of his choice. This is true no matter where you contemplate your arguments, whether they are from behind a desk in Afghanistan, behind a podium at a Tea Party rally, or in a bar in Pattaya.

I recently watched a video of a lecturer describing how babies, over a three month period between 15 months & 18 months, develop a sense of self, understanding & respecting how others are different. We could all learn from them.

[internationallawreview]

Seabagsfull - It is a great community service you profer in keeping this thread going to the benefit of men who want to learn about Thai culture's sin sod.

Let's hope we are not wasting words here and that some green arrivals to Thailand read this and gain insight into real Thai culture, marriage, and Sin Sod.

Everyone will agree there is value in life and sharing it through marriage. Getting closer to the essence of this is a higher achievement.

While you recommend that we should all learn more from babies- as you clearly have been doing, the rest of us are stuck dealing with adult realities.

Few people would agree that 'love for sale' or distortions of tradition are of real life/cultural value.

When we set aside native romanticism and justifying our own personal lives, we are left with a chance to discover the actual process of a culture. This is the topic we brought up....What is Sin Sod? Why is there Sin Sod? What is Sin Sod in Thai culture now and a groom's place with it? How is this justified..or not?

These questions have been answered quite clearly before in this thread by myself and others.

Rather than pontificate for the entertainment of TV readers, let's post real life insights into Sin Sod from Thai people. Today I asked some of my friends from Bangkok, Khon Kean, and Sattahip.

Paraphrased from what Thai women age 24 to 39 had to say about Sin Sod:

1. Sin Sod traditionally meant the giving of something useful, such as a Buffalo, or Pig for a virgin girl.

The value of sin sod did not equate to a life changing sum such as money enough to buy a new home or even a car.

2. The new wife would then effectively repay sin sod by going to live in the home of the groom's family and taking care of

the home & family and serving them through the marriage.

There was never an equation for a girl's family to take money for a girl who did not give to the groom's family.

Should a girl fail this, the sin sod would be returned, Double.

3. Often the bride's family does not keep Sin Sod. While they appreciate the "show" of sin sod, they realize the greater

importance of the groom retaining his means to build the marriage.

Sin sod was not regarded as means for a bride's family to cash in on marriage in Thai culture.

4. Families supported marriages to good, stable, caring grooms.

Families did not preen, suggest or browbeat daughters to find a high paying groom.

Daughters were not seen as a cash crop for sale.

5. Families supported marriages to grooms about whom they had learned in great detail.

They did not support marriages to strangers with hidden pasts nor 'fast' marriages after just weeks of engagement.

6. Sin Sod would not be given for a non virgin.

Even to this day, families expect the man who takes a daughter's virginity to "pay" for her value (even outside marriage).

A woman who has had previous men is considered lucky to find a good (responsible, loving) man to marry - sans Sin Sod.

7. When buffalos are not at hand, cash can be used. A normal amount is 50,000 baht. This is a standard in Thailand today.

200,000 THB is considered "a lot". Anything more is just for show and face gaining.

Again, even these amounts are often returned to the married couple after the wedding.

They went on to relate about 2 sisters married during the previous few years who had both received back their 50,000 thb sin sod amounts.

One lady is engaged to be married next month. She takes great pride in the fact she will not be taking Sin Sod from her American groom. She takes Pride in this and tells everyone exactly why. She loves him, he is good (hearted) and she does not want his money. Her family is so happy for her.

They went on to say that it is contrary to Thai culture to use Sin Sod as a money making, life changing goal and to put pressure on a groom for this. The new wave of girls who ask for 100s of thousands or a million are bastardizing their own culture... Something which we witness more and more often in marriages/divorces wrought with financial manipulation, from mothers who neglect children or use them to extort money, and with Rising numbers in 'voluntary' prostitution (as opposed to physically imposed) where girls shop themselves to the man who will pay the most.

You see, Seabagsfullof and others who share concern for 'respecting' Thai culture, it is actually about preserving Thai culture and the common sense it was run by, and still does run by in the Thai world...

Ask a few farangs who have no vested interests - the rest of the story is never told to 'ye farangs born of far off seas' by the girls who welcome us off the boats.

[weegee]

well said "internationallawreview" hope to meet you some day soon!!!!!!!

[F4UCorsair]

OP said, "Whenever the subject is raised at the dining table, somehow the Thai girl is automatically viewed as a Nana gold-digger".

That's because when the subject is mentioned, the Thai girl IS a Nana gold digger!! Substitute whatever city/town/area she comes from for Nana if you're more comfortable doing that, so there is no stigma attached.

I'm going to put together a list of euphenisms when I have time. At the top of the list will be "Good/big hearted", which is Thai/Filipino/etc speak for big wallet........... and probably small brain.

I'm constantly intrigued by the claim that "sin sod is my custom". What about me? It's not my custom in Australia, and in India, it works the other way, the bride's parents pay the groom. That's a far more realistic custom.

[benalibina]

OP said, "Whenever the subject is raised at the dining table, somehow the Thai girl is automatically viewed as a Nana gold-digger".

That's because when the subject is mentioned, the Thai girl IS a Nana gold digger!! Substitute whatever city/town/area she comes from for Nana if you're more comfortable doing that, so there is no stigma attached.

I'm going to put together a list of euphenisms when I have time. At the top of the list will be "Good/big hearted", which is Thai/Filipino/etc speak for big wallet........... and probably small brain.

I'm constantly intrigued by the claim that "sin sod is my custom". What about me? It's not my custom in Australia, and in India, it works the other way, the bride's parents pay the groom. That's a far more realistic custom.

Oh oh, Thailand is the centre of the world. Thais amongst them do it so in their opinion there is nothing wrongwith sin sod. However payer decides. We all know that money talks alot more in thailand than in western societies. Morals and values are quite limited especially in the lower class of thai society. Lack of a welfaresystem ?

[krisb]

Want to confuse and stump the inlaws?

Marry their daughter overseas.

[internationallawreview]

OP said, "Whenever the subject is raised at the dining table, somehow the Thai girl is automatically viewed as a Nana gold-digger".

That's because when the subject is mentioned, the Thai girl IS a Nana gold digger!! Substitute whatever city/town/area she comes from for Nana if you're more comfortable doing that, so there is no stigma attached.

I'm going to put together a list of euphenisms when I have time. At the top of the list will be "Good/big hearted", which is Thai/Filipino/etc speak for big wallet........... and probably small brain.

I'm constantly intrigued by the claim that "sin sod is my custom". What about me? It's not my custom in Australia, and in India, it works the other way, the bride's parents pay the groom. That's a far more realistic custom.

We await your list of euphamisms, please post it as a new thread... It could be an incredibly useful translation set. Included can be common terms used by both Thai and internationals - Farangs? Respect? Good Man? Good Girl? Help? Care? Understand? Fun? Culture? Love? Parent? Education? Holiday? Guide? Boyfriend? Husband? Time ? Work? Pretty? Black? Hitler? Vote? Book? America? UK? China? Pattaya? Police? Marriage ? Divorce? Share? Agreement?....

[Boo]

davejones, on 07 Sept 2013 - 14:02, said:

I bet a Thai man marrying a Western woman doesn't give her a dowry.

Wrong, my mil offered but as we didn't do the tradtional ceremony & just a registry office it wasn't needed but it was offered & if, after 10 years of legal marriage so far, we do ever decide to do the thai one, then there will be a dowry showing event on the day.

[Guitar God]

An acceptable reason for sin sod if when the parents are loosing a daughter who has helped them cook, clean, work on the family farm, family business, help with chores, fill in for them when they're sick etc.

When my father was growing up, he had chores to do before school, after school and on the weekend during planting and harvest times. Sometimes he'd stay home and miss school when work needed to be done. It's not that Thais take advantage of their children as unpaid laborers, or sell them off as property. Children in many cultures are expected to help their families if need be.

Many Thai parents have made sacrifices to raise their children so they can grow up to have a better life than they did.

My gf loves her parents dearly and feels she owes them a huge debt of gratitude. I feel the same way about my (western) parents.

Instead of spending their extra baht on gold or cars or liquor or luxury items, my Thai girlfriend's parents scrimped and saved from their meager income to put 3 daughters through college so they could have a college degree and get a good-paying job to have a better life so they wouldn't have to resort to some of the unsavory acts some other women have done in order to survive.

After their daughters have married and moved out to start lives on their own, their elderly parents are left with the same amount of work to do to scrape by, yet with six less hands to help. All at a time when they are less able to work to provide for themselves.

It's not like they have a comfortable pension or a fat bank account to rely on so they can kick back and enjoy their golden years.

A reasonable sinsod for compensation for the loss of assistance and companionship seems reasonable to me.

[khaosai]

"... to marry their Thai girlfriends, most of whom are from the Bangkok middle-class and obviously have no intention of deceiving anyone for money."

This and at least one reference to Thai women as "Thai girls" in the OP makes me believe that this is a sarcastic article written by a white man.

I think that you will find that the author Prae Sakaowan is actually a Thai female,

Thanks for the link, so I guess I was correct since the profile says that Prae is a fictional character. It should really be highlighted in the article, even though it's obvious from the writing style.

I did not actually see that link, but did visit her Facebook site. She looks anything but fictional on there. I take your point on the writing style.

https://www.facebook.com/stylishkitty

I would be very surprised if this article was written by a Thai female, and most certainly not proof read by one. Grammar, spelling and choice of words like aphorism to me trigger alarm bells. Cynical maybe, one man's opinion for sure.

[Guitar God]

Whoever "stylishkitty" was, they've deactivated their FB account. Suspicious.

[internationallawreview]

An acceptable reason for sin sod if when the parents are loosing a daughter who has helped them cook, clean, work on the family farm, family business, help with chores, fill in for them when they're sick etc.

When my father was growing up, he had chores to do before school, after school and on the weekend during planting and harvest times. Sometimes he'd stay home and miss school when work needed to be done. It's not that Thais take advantage of their children as unpaid laborers, or sell them off as property. Children in many cultures are expected to help their families if need be.

Many Thai parents have made sacrifices to raise their children so they can grow up to have a better life than they did.

My gf loves her parents dearly and feels she owes them a huge debt of gratitude. I feel the same way about my (western) parents.

Instead of spending their extra baht on gold or cars or liquor or luxury items, my Thai girlfriend's parents scrimped and saved from their meager income to put 3 daughters through college so they could have a college degree and get a good-paying job to have a better life so they wouldn't have to resort to some of the unsavory acts some other women have done in order to survive.

After their daughters have married and moved out to start lives on their own, their elderly parents are left with the same amount of work to do to scrape by, yet with six less hands to help. All at a time when they are less able to work to provide for themselves.

It's not like they have a comfortable pension or a fat bank account to rely on so they can kick back and enjoy their golden years.

A reasonable sinsod for compensation for the loss of assistance and companionship seems reasonable to me.

It is good that you brought this up... Khun Moo Curt, as compensation for parenting and parent's needs are often brought into the contemporary discussion of Sin Sod. Simply put, this is not "Thai culture". Sin sod was not designed as a parental compensation act, it was designed as a show of support for the Daughter. Given the variations on how this plays out, parents traditionally kept Sin Sod as a type of insurance - one might say against the event the husband does not provide for the daughter or runs out on her. This is important because a young woman can only lose her Virginity but once, the perspective being that it will be much more difficult for the woman to marry and so is Sin Sod given as a hedge against this so that the family can provide for the Daughter.

Reading your post, there is a sense of humanity that many of us share, compassion for the plight of the elderly. How sad is it that some Thais have learned to exploit this - our compassion, under the guise of Sin Sod culture. Many times we hear the stories of relatives in need, how they gave milk, how the aunt is in the hospital, the farm ailing - It has been a boon for many Thais to discover the "Christian" reaction is one of compassion rather than the accustomed Chinese reaction of indifference to such pleas. Droves of girls now pick up how to beg their case and are coached by other girls, chat forums, and village advisors on how to take advantage of foriegners' "soft heart" and ease of parting with cash upon hearing a sad story.

Yet surely there are stories much more sad than those of parents who miss their daughter laborers. With the growing number of orphaned and abandoned (to extended family) children, there is a whole generation of youth at risk who could use real support. Those who are blind, amputees, and other's with conditions limiting their ability to work are in great need here in Thailand. The return to the heart on helping these people would be of much greater reward to the compassionate gentleman... Of course, this precludes the nocturnal benefits.

Let's set aside rationalizations, if the argument is compassion, then give to the needy. If one of us wants to 'help' an attractive lady/her family, the reasons are our own... We can acknowledge that without the lady's attractive features, one would never have anything to do with her family.

As for helping family, this is of course the decent thing to do, if it is a true family. The wife should also be serving the gentleman's family. Once elderly family members become unable to work by their own hands, the time for support is at hand. This could very well mean having the family live together, which is quite normal for real family.

Rather than guising this as Sin Sod, a wife could speak directly with her husband about this.

It is absolutely true that many cultures, all cultures have a history of children helping parents. I also grew up in farm country and worked like a dog in the sun or snow. The most "pay" I got was some free time when the fields were set, the animals kept, and all the chores were done. Through generations we all went "without" a lot and lived with hand-me-downs. If some one had ever offered to 'compensate' me or any grandparents for raising our children, well, that person would have their block knocked off, flatly. My grandparents worked and my parents do into elderly years, with pride.

Parents have children by their own accord, the inherant responsibility due to a child is known to all. We would not want to consider that Thais now having daughters consider that they should be repaid for fulfilling the duty of a parent, would we?

It is worth noting too that the subject about son's does not come up. This has been noted before (that daughters are considered a child who brings less spiritual value to a family because they are not allowed to perform the same merits in the temple as a son). Yet it seems the

[rgs2001uk]

An acceptable reason for sin sod if when the parents are loosing a daughter who has helped them cook, clean, work on the family farm, family business, help with chores, fill in for them when they're sick etc.

When my father was growing up, he had chores to do before school, after school and on the weekend during planting and harvest times. Sometimes he'd stay home and miss school when work needed to be done. It's not that Thais take advantage of their children as unpaid laborers, or sell them off as property. Children in many cultures are expected to help their families if need be.

Many Thai parents have made sacrifices to raise their children so they can grow up to have a better life than they did.

My gf loves her parents dearly and feels she owes them a huge debt of gratitude. I feel the same way about my (western) parents.

Instead of spending their extra baht on gold or cars or liquor or luxury items, my Thai girlfriend's parents scrimped and saved from their meager income to put 3 daughters through college so they could have a college degree and get a good-paying job to have a better life so they wouldn't have to resort to some of the unsavory acts some other women have done in order to survive.

After their daughters have married and moved out to start lives on their own, their elderly parents are left with the same amount of work to do to scrape by, yet with six less hands to help. All at a time when they are less able to work to provide for themselves.

It's not like they have a comfortable pension or a fat bank account to rely on so they can kick back and enjoy their golden years.

A reasonable sinsod for compensation for the loss of assistance and companionship seems reasonable to me.

It is good that you brought this up... Khun Moo Curt, as compensation for parenting and parent's needs are often brought into the contemporary discussion of Sin Sod. Simply put, this is not "Thai culture". Sin sod was not designed as a parental compensation act, it was designed as a show of support for the Daughter. Given the variations on how this plays out, parents traditionally kept Sin Sod as a type of insurance - one might say against the event the husband does not provide for the daughter or runs out on her. This is important because a young woman can only lose her Virginity but once, the perspective being that it will be much more difficult for the woman to marry and so is Sin Sod given as a hedge against this so that the family can provide for the Daughter.

Reading your post, there is a sense of humanity that many of us share, compassion for the plight of the elderly. How sad is it that some Thais have learned to exploit this - our compassion, under the guise of Sin Sod culture. Many times we hear the stories of relatives in need, how they gave milk, how the aunt is in the hospital, the farm ailing - It has been a boon for many Thais to discover the "Christian" reaction is one of compassion rather than the accustomed Chinese reaction of indifference to such pleas. Droves of girls now pick up how to beg their case and are coached by other girls, chat forums, and village advisors on how to take advantage of foriegners' "soft heart" and ease of parting with cash upon hearing a sad story.

Yet surely there are stories much more sad than those of parents who miss their daughter laborers. With the growing number of orphaned and abandoned (to extended family) children, there is a whole generation of youth at risk who could use real support. Those who are blind, amputees, and other's with conditions limiting their ability to work are in great need here in Thailand. The return to the heart on helping these people would be of much greater reward to the compassionate gentleman... Of course, this precludes the nocturnal benefits.

Let's set aside rationalizations, if the argument is compassion, then give to the needy. If one of us wants to 'help' an attractive lady/her family, the reasons are our own... We can acknowledge that without the lady's attractive features, one would never have anything to do with her family.

As for helping family, this is of course the decent thing to do, if it is a true family. The wife should also be serving the gentleman's family. Once elderly family members become unable to work by their own hands, the time for support is at hand. This could very well mean having the family live together, which is quite normal for real family.

Rather than guising this as Sin Sod, a wife could speak directly with her husband about this.

It is absolutely true that many cultures, all cultures have a history of children helping parents. I also grew up in farm country and worked like a dog in the sun or snow. The most "pay" I got was some free time when the fields were set, the animals kept, and all the chores were done. Through generations we all went "without" a lot and lived with hand-me-downs. If some one had ever offered to 'compensate' me or any grandparents for raising our children, well, that person would have their block knocked off, flatly. My grandparents worked and my parents do into elderly years, with pride.

Parents have children by their own accord, the inherant responsibility due to a child is known to all. We would not want to consider that Thais now having daughters consider that they should be repaid for fulfilling the duty of a parent, would we?

It is worth noting too that the subject about son's does not come up. This has been noted before (that daughters are considered a child who brings less spiritual value to a family because they are not allowed to perform the same merits in the temple as a son). Yet it seems the

The wife should also be serving the gentleman's family.

Nailed it in one.

In every Thai/Thai marriage I know of, the girl follows the husband and supports the husbands family.

Of course we have to take into account, Thais very rarely if ever marry beneath themselves.

The majority of Thai/farang marriages wouldnt happen under normal Thai protocol.

Thai attitude, a marriage is between two families, the Thais themselves know the "unwritten rules"

Farang attitude, I dont care about Thai protocol, I love "little Lek" and will marry her.

Buyer beware, dont here about too many Thai males being ripped off for houses, sin sot etc etc.

At least two of my Thai friends have houses that belong to their mothers, when the mother dies they inherit the house, read up on inheritance laws in Thailand and you will understand.

[David48]

Thai men pay Sin Sot to marry their Thai Bride ... not all Thai men mind you ...

Some Sin Sot is returned in Kind, some partly kept, for some, there is 100% retention.

So, if Thai people do it as part of their Ceremony ... don't you think if forms part of their Culture?

If you find a woman who is prepared to marry you without a Sin Sot being paid ... great.

Everyone situation and mileage is different in Thailand.

For those who have spent a considerable time here, living with the Thais and not in a Farang Ghetto, I would suggest that many eventually come to the realisation that there is some truth to the rumour of Sin Sot after attending a couple of Thai/Thai weddings.

Who are these people? ... well, they are guys from the Forum, who have spent considerable time here, some were Mods.

I recommend a read of the pinned topic at the top of this Forum ... sin-sod-an-explanation

So, what happens to the Sin Sot?

Well, the Bride and Groom may get an allocation of land, if they are Farmers, maybe some Farm equipment, sometimes part of the Sin Sot retained by the Parents goes towards the Wedding costs.

Then we haven't even considered the regional variations ... Issan vs Central (Bangkok and the surrounds).

The North vs the deep South

What you don't get in threads like this are the voices of the old timers, the guys, for whom the question of Sin Sot is familiar as that of 'Is being called a Farang disrespectful', or 'Corruption in Thailand' ... they just get on with their lives and leave the debate to others.

We can try and debate it in Black and Whites terms, but that dismisses the shades of grey that, in reality, exist in between the Black and White of yes, its paid and no, it's a Cultural Con to even think about paying it.

One thing I am sure of is this ... there is not universal rule when it comes to question of Sin Sot.

.

[SeabagsFull]

Thai men pay Sin Sot to marry their Thai Bride ... not all Thai men mind you ...

For those who have spent a considerable time here, living with the Thais and not in a Farang Ghetto, I would suggest that many eventually come to the realisation that there is some truth to the rumour of Sin Sot after attending a couple of Thai/Thai weddings.

I recommend a read of the pinned topic at the top of this Forum ... sin-sod-an-explanation

So, what happens to the Sin Sot? ... sometimes part of the Sin Sot retained by the Parents goes towards the Wedding costs.

What you don't get in threads like this are the voices of the old timers, the guys, for whom the question of Sin Sot is familiar as that of 'Is being called a Farang disrespectful', or 'Corruption in Thailand' ... they just get on with their lives and leave the debate to others.

Well said, David 48.

I would also add that, in virtually every case of a superstar, singer, golfer, actor or actress marrying, even within the Royal family, the newspapers & media make a big to-do about the rumored size of the dowry. Regardless of what 1984-styled history-rewriting people believe, the offering of Sin Sot is widely practiced in modern-day Thailand.

[rgs2001uk]

Thai men pay Sin Sot to marry their Thai Bride ... not all Thai men mind you ...

For those who have spent a considerable time here, living with the Thais and not in a Farang Ghetto, I would suggest that many eventually come to the realisation that there is some truth to the rumour of Sin Sot after attending a couple of Thai/Thai weddings.

I recommend a read of the pinned topic at the top of this Forum ... sin-sod-an-explanation

So, what happens to the Sin Sot? ... sometimes part of the Sin Sot retained by the Parents goes towards the Wedding costs.

What you don't get in threads like this are the voices of the old timers, the guys, for whom the question of Sin Sot is familiar as that of 'Is being called a Farang disrespectful', or 'Corruption in Thailand' ... they just get on with their lives and leave the debate to others.

Well said, David 48.

I would also add that, in virtually every case of a superstar, singer, golfer, actor or actress marrying, even within the Royal family, the newspapers & media make a big to-do about the rumored size of the dowry. Regardless of what 1984-styled history-rewriting people believe, the offering of Sin Sot is widely practiced in modern-day Thailand.

I would also add that, in virtually every case of a superstar, singer, golfer, actor or actress marrying, even within the Royal family, the newspapers & media make a big to-do about the rumored size of the dowry.

Are you sure that has anything to do with sin sot, or is it more to do with face?

the offering of Sin Sot is widely practiced in modern-day Thailand.

Not denying it, please define sin sot.

What it is not, groom pays about 10 times the average wages for the bride.

Groom pays for the wedding and all associated costs.

Groom pays the in-lwas a monthly stipend.

I have nothing against sin sot, what I object to is what is passed off as sin sot onto gullible farangs who know no better.

If a girl earns X per year, gov't post (and all the benefits that entails) pension etc etc. how many times her yearly salary should I be expected to pay?

Sin sot is not, groom pays about 30 years wages in advance to the parents, groom pays for everything all wedding costs, groom is expected to pay the in-laws a monthly stipend.

I wonder how many on here have ever actually been involved in sin sot discussions (forgetting what their teerak told them).

The last one I personally was involved with, answer, no sin sot.

The girl (niece of mine) asked me along, I listened to all the "joining of two families crap"

I then said to the prospective grooms mother, no sin sot required, shock, stunned, no answer, wasnt what she expected.

My answer was, tell your son to complete his education, get a degree, get a job paying him at least X baht per month, wait for a promotion, then come back and talk about getting married.

The answer to the above, the marriage didnt take place, prospective husband was not in a position to "take care"

Friend of mine paid 300k, this is what he got for his money.

University educated perfect English speaking girl, no kids in tow, no baggage.

Gov't position and all the benefits that come with it.

Parents dont need or want his money (they have more than the farang has).

The two of them have been married for a good few years now, no problems.

Compare.

Little Lek from the back of beyond working bar, tells gullible farang you have to pay papa, blah blah blah.

Please define sin sot.