Older Guys, Younger Ladies, An Alternative View......"Maybe You Die"

[theblether]

Why do some members persistently go on about this subject? Are you in the West? Do you have any idea how society works in the Third World and other patriarchal societies? In fact, do you not know this was common in the West up until relatively recently?

I know of two women, one recently deceased, that married men much older. Both were teenagers, one married a man in his mid 30's, the other a 42 year old. No one blinked an eye. They both went on to have largish families, one with 4 kids the other with 6. The families were brought up in highly stable and learned environments as the older fathers had established a degree of financial independence and were ready to dedicate themselves to their kids.

I would suggest to you that a lot of the marriage carnage now taking place in the West is a result of two immature people taking up with each other and discovering too late that they were never compatible.

In this society, and so often in all Third World societies, survival was the primary driver. Love and romance were fanciful notions, a guarantee that you could eat tomorrow was of far more interest. So up shows the guy with a few rai of land looking for a wife. He might be 35 or 40 back in the day and she in her teens, young teens even. The parents would launch her out of the door as they would have been delighted that she had a guy who could look after her. His age would have been a complete irrelevance.

To eat, or not to eat, that is the question.

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There's another survival dynamic taking place in these countries too, if you have the time watch this excellent documentary on the Hmong people. You'll see at one point the narrator stating the young lady is devastated at having to leave her family for marriage but she is told "We've eaten his pig, taken his silver and drank his whisky, you must go". He ( his family ) had proven they could look after her.

In the often brutal living conditions endured by many of the Hill Tribes progeny was a serious driving issue. Men couldn't wait until their 30's to be married as the cobra, the dengue, the food poisoning, anything could wipe him out long before that. Reproduction was essential for the tribal way of life so people were married off young to ensure that as many kids as possible were fired out before death came a calling.

Infant mortality was high, also in the West. There was one community in Scotland that had a policy of not naming a child for a week to see if it would live that long. Here's that excellent documentary on the Hmong people that describes a lot of this survival dynamic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWflBUfw1z8

That psychological familial dynamic is ingrained into the collective memory of Thai society. That is the driver of this society. Thais forget nothing.

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So up we show with our modern Western mindset. We have forgotten our own history so quickly it's a disgrace and an embarrassment. Trawl through your family archive back to great grandparents level and I lay you odds that you will find large age difference marriages within your family tree. Go further back than that then it's a certainty.

How do you feel about being so ignorant of the history of your own family and society? I lay you odds a lot of you couldn't name your Great Grandparents. I'll give you a bonus point if your can name any Great Grandmothers maiden name. The dwindling band of Samaritans, ( yes they are a real people ), can name every male ancestor going back 160 odd generations.

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So now the clash of societies, Third World and developing Thailand clashes with smart ass and ignorant of history Westerners. There most certainly are areas of Thailand that can still be described as Third World and it's a lot of these areas and mindsets that beget the daughters of Pattaya fame.

Let's set aside the out and out criminal and horror stories that we hear about where callous and evil women strip unsuspecting males of everything. There's a cohort on Thaivisa that genuinely believe that every young woman with an older husband can't wait for him to die. Garbage.

"Maybe you die".

You have to understand the competing forces in this country. The lady has married her Golden Goose and that Goose has to keep laying forever. Why? by marrying a farang she has stepped out of Thai society. By marrying an older farang she has certainly stepped out of Thai society. Also she can't prevent the aging process either. She knows that she is either in or heading rapidly towards being on the shelf herself. She'll never pick up a decent Thai husband after marrying a farang and kicking over the 25 age barrier, and absolutely over 30.

She has taken a serious life altering decision, and she needs it to work.

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There's one more issue though, come with me one day and I'll show you. Some guys seem to think it's impossible for a young Thai woman to love an older guy. I think that attitude is deranged and I can prove it. It's normal in Third World societies for marriages to be actually arranged by parents or sorted based upon the survival instinct. Once married, love grows.

Nothing is ever absolute, however to be the father of a woman's children is a big deal. To be a good father to her children even better again. In this society to be a good member of the family will make you a hero in her eyes.

Here's the part that people cannot understand. Being a good member of the family is not directly related to how much money you spend on the family. In fact it's the opposite. You wouldn't walk about pouring cash into the pockets of Uncles and cousins back home, why would you do it here? Wake up.

It's to be participative that's most important. Once the Thai family ( extended ) suss out you're not their Golden Goose they will back off and look at you in a different light, a better light. How you interact with her parents is the most important thing. If her parents accept you as a part of the family, and you'll know soon enough, then you have knocked it off. Wandering about doing the simple stuff to help them is worth more than money. Go feed the chickens or muck out the shed and they will think you are a superstar. If they think you are a superstar, so will she.

Let's go back to fatherhood, I know a young girl who is still rattling from the death of her farang father last year. It's a serious blow to any child World over. Wander in to your local Big C or Makro just about any day in the week and you will see now elderly and in some cases geriatric farangs being cared for by their wives, their children, even their grand children, as they wander about the aisles.

These are the people you don't often see, so far integrated into Thai society and their families that they spend every single waking moment with them. Thailand is their home, and they are loved deeply by their family. Oh, and ordinarily they are always a bit older than their wives, who are now themselves kicking on for 50 or 60 years of age.

If you honestly believe that Thais are not capable of love, there is something wrong with you. If you believe that younger Thai women cannot love an older man, you're only showing your ignorance of Thai society. There's plenty of examples of younger/older relationships lasting the course over many decades and I happen to personally know TV members in that category. I also know farangs that have been married for 20 to 30 years that think it's laughable, absurd, that anyone would doubt their marriage. People are always on about indicators as to how to know you have a good lady, keep your ear open for this one.......

"Maybe you die".

She doesn't want to lose you. So all of you guys that think that these relationships don't work, give it a rest, you're only confirming your ignorance.

Edited September 16, 2013 by theblether

[NeverSure]

Nice piece theblether. You're a great writer.

Just one question. Have you ever married a pretty, much younger Isaan gal, her extended family, her Thai child, her chickens, ducks and buffalo?

Oh, one more question. If you did, would you have the guts to buy her a house, that 25 rai, and a car?

Edited September 16, 2013 by NeverSure

[richard_smith237]

This is not a subject I harp on about on ThaiVisa.com, but since you brought up the subject Blether...

IMO, which is what you have asked for... Well no my opinion specifically, but that of any responders to that Biblical post (I didn't read it all).

Equality between men and females has resulted in the realisation that Women who are and can be self sufficient generally choose to be with someone of their own age.

This equality did not exist throughout history, thus I would assume ignorance of anyone who expects somewhat bigoted values to exists and prevail in todays society of greater opportunities for Women.

We all know that Thailand is a society whereby education is not afforded to everyone in equal measures. This leaves hungry, poor and sometimes desperate people.

For the purposes of this topic: Women without any alternative turn to men for financial support, in many cases they turn to older-men because younger men will or can not afford them the life and minor luxuries they aspire to.

We all therefore know that these 'arrangements' are just that. The relationship between older man and younger ladies in the majority of cases are borne of financial needs - the lady in question makes somewhat of a career decision.

So.. While I agree with much of what 'the blether' writes he still dances around a much simpler fact - In most cases a financially independent lady is far less likely to be with an older man because she has choice. Equally so in many cases a financially insecure lady will simply take her chances where-ever she can.

Where the 'love part' comes into it... I'm sure many get mixed up between attachment, desire, passion, love... I'm sure love does exist.

However, for many the assumption is that the relationship commenced through some form of dishonesty... i.e. the guy being dishonest with himself that a young girl is truly interested in him, additionally there is dishonesty on the part of the lady that she is letting the guy believe that he is truly the object of her desire....

I would suggest that in many cases this assumption is not wholly inaccurate while respecting the fact that as with all generalisations its never accurate all of the time.

Edited September 16, 2013 by richard_smith237

[theblether]

I agree with you Richard, which is why I referred to the lack of Familial memory by the part of Westerners. It was an attempt to point out that even as recently as our Grandparents, the same Familial dynamic was a driver in the West.

Then people turn up here all judgmental about Thai society, and the truth of the matter is, their Great Grandmothers would recognize the situation young women still find themselves in here.

To eat, or not to eat, that is the question.

[theblether]

Nice piece theblether. You're a great writer.

Just one question. Have you ever married a pretty, much younger Isaan gal, her extended family, her Thai child, her chickens, ducks and buffalo?

Oh, one more question. If you did, would you have the guts to buy her a house, that 25 rai, and a car?

I addressed that Neversure......

Here's the part that people cannot understand. Being a good member of the family is not directly related to how much money you spend on the family. In fact it's the opposite. You wouldn't walk about pouring cash into the pockets of Uncles and cousins back home, why would you do it here? Wake up.

It's to be participative that's most important. Once the Thai family ( extended ) suss out you're not their Golden Goose they will back off and look at you in a different light, a better light. How you interact with her parents is the most important thing. If her parents accept you as a part of the family, and you'll know soon enough, then you have knocked it off. Wandering about doing the simple stuff to help them is worth more than money. Go feed the chickens or muck out the shed and they will think you are a superstar. If they think you are a superstar, so will she.

I suggest that farangs learn to spend nothing on the family except time.

They should also remember what it was like when they first started out in life, no one gave them everything on a plate. Don't do it with your lady either. This is not rocket science.

[NeverSure]

I agree with you Richard, which is why I referred to the lack of Familial memory by the part of Westerners. It was an attempt to point out that even as recently as our Grandparents, the same Familial dynamic was a driver in the West.

Then people turn up here all judgmental about Thai society, and the truth of the matter is, their Great Grandmothers would recognize the situation young women still find themselves in here.

To eat, or not to eat, that is the question.

Many Thai women have taken "to eat" and made it an art form. There still isn't equality in the masses in Thailand because of the new dynamic called consumer debt. I know gals with master's degrees and good government jobs who are so far in debt they can barely afford to eat. The new car scheme, the new house scheme, and the indespensible smartphone have buried them.

They want to live like a Westerner on a third world income. They are just as vulnerable to the older farang as their Isaan village counterparts.

And the older farang is just as vulnerable to them.

Blether, let's go back to the Great Depression. All I really know about it is the US part and what my parents and their friends told me about it. But I do know that there wasn't the crime rate or the sense of "entitlement" that exists today. There were no food stamps or other government benefits. Fend or go hungry.

People have changed somehow. It's not only about getting what you need, but getting what you want which is a new house, a new car, a smartphone, a computer and an internet connection. Oh, a big screen TV.

I don't see hungry people barely able to eat the way some of the world is and was. I see people who are turning to consumerism as the unattainable goal, driven by debt. I see greed. Of course there are exceptions with happy marriages and real love.

With all due respect, I truly think you look at the industry of getting money from farangs through rose colored glasses.

Edited September 16, 2013 by NeverSure

[theblether]

On the contrary, so let's make it clearer so that there is no doubt whatsoever.

Anyone leading with their wallet here is asking for it.

You will never, never see me recommend that policy to anyone. Never.

I advise the opposite, spend nothing. maybe you were typing when I wrote.

I suggest that farangs learn to spend nothing on the family except time.

They should also remember what it was like when they first started out in life, no one gave them everything on a plate. Don't do it with your lady either. This is not rocket science.

[mooris7]

I think the reason why this is a hot topic on the forum is because many of the members are old men with young girlfriends or wives. They get defensive because they don't want to believe they are the sugar daddy for their young woman! As the op said. This has been a normal thing for many western societies but I still cringe when I see that 70 year old man walking hand in hand with the 20 year old girl lol!

[itchybum]

I know my great, great, great grand parents name on one side of the family.

I also know why one of them got shipped out with his brother from Ireland all them years ago to an island south of Victoria.

But also look at it honestly, not many rich girls marry old guys.

I know of a Thai lady that married a much older guy, she like 35 and he in his 70's.....she is now quite rich after his demise. She has 3 cars and an estate.

[farang000999]

Finally something new to talk about.

[ToddWeston]

I cherish my Thai family because I know they love me unconditionally - it's never ever been about money, in fact we borrowed money from them for our first home purchase. The notion they see us as a walking ATM is down to the fact you're showing off and on an ego trip, there is no one to blame except yourself.

And yes thank you for reminding me my great grandparents with god awful names (it's easy to remember Horace and Ena WTH) had a 30 year age gap, never really thought about it until now, went on to have 6 kids to survive and work the farm. The other side I believe was a 15 year gap and he was on his third wife.

Some of us did win the lottery with our Thai family. I changed the nieces and nephews nappies now we go for a pint and solve the worlds problems. When I dry the dishes or muck about making a mess that the FIL will eventually have to fix in the yard or around the house, I can feel all eyes are on me and it's the same feeling I had as a kid when my parents would watch me play sport or attend a school play - pride and love. It didn't happen overnight and ot took a lot of effort but I knew my plan would work - smother them with kindness (not money) and I'm in.

[ghworker2010]

I have to agree with the following part of OP's thread:

''I would suggest to you that a lot of the marriage carnage now taking place in the West is a result of two immature people taking up with each other and discovering too late that they were never compatible.''

My sister in her 20's was married a few yrs ago and we all said how young she seems to be doing it. Time will tell if that one lasts

Im now in early 40's and only now think that Im financially and emotionally stable enough to settle down.

I've read many psychology studies that the ideal age for a mans wife is best decided by the following formulae: half a mans age and add 7 yrs.....

[i claudius]

I sometimes think that some of the posters on here are braindead.,better if you know nothing say nothing.

[robblok]

This is not a subject I harp on about on ThaiVisa.com, but since you brought up the subject Blether...

IMO, which is what you have asked for... Well no my opinion specifically, but that of any responders to that Biblical post (I didn't read it all).

Equality between men and females has resulted in the realisation that Women who are and can be self sufficient generally choose to be with someone of their own age.

This equality did not exist throughout history, thus I would assume ignorance of anyone who expects somewhat bigoted values to exists and prevail in todays society of greater opportunities for Women.

We all know that Thailand is a society whereby education is not afforded to everyone in equal measures. This leaves hungry, poor and sometimes desperate people.

For the purposes of this topic: Women without any alternative turn to men for financial support, in many cases they turn to older-men because younger men will or can not afford them the life and minor luxuries they aspire to.

We all therefore know that these 'arrangements' are just that. The relationship between older man and younger ladies in the majority of cases are borne of financial needs - the lady in question makes somewhat of a career decision.

So.. While I agree with much of what 'the blether' writes he still dances around a much simpler fact - In most cases a financially independent lady is far less likely to be with an older man because she has choice. Equally so in many cases a financially insecure lady will simply take her chances where-ever she can.

Where the 'love part' comes into it... I'm sure many get mixed up between attachment, desire, passion, love... I'm sure love does exist.

However, for many the assumption is that the relationship commenced through some form of dishonesty... i.e. the guy being dishonest with himself that a young girl is truly interested in him, additionally there is dishonesty on the part of the lady that she is letting the guy believe that he is truly the object of her desire....

I would suggest that in many cases this assumption is not wholly inaccurate while respecting the fact that as with all generalisations its never accurate all of the time.

Good point I agree girls that need money go for money those who don't go for attraction.

So as long as the guy knows its a money thing its ok.

I had this discussion with a Thai lady i know she makes a lot more money then most guys in here. She said she was happy she never had to make that choice. Also she said something about the girls that married for money (she meets them as her co workers are foreigners in a big international company). They are a totally different breed and among each other they brag about how much money they get and measure love in way of getting things.

The moment i heard that it reminded me of when i was married back in the Netherlands and my (now ex) came in contact with such a group of ladies and became part of it. They were also constantly bragging about how much they got and finding new ways to get money from the husband. If you read here on Thaivisa you will see many guys married with Thais in the west have the same experience.

So its a totally different game they equate things they get with love and as long as you pay they are often loyal.

That kinda shows what i mean they are bragging about their provider and how much they got from him and are going to take from him. This is more or less what is been said by richard.

Its also quite normal if you marry to be financially secure then that is what you brag about and care about. If you marry because of other reasons you will talk about the other reasons ect ect.

I just worry for the guys that are not smart enough to protect their assets in a relation like that.. because they want the money and if they can have it without the guy.. then better even. Then they are financially independent and go to what really attracts them.

[mooris7]

I sometimes think that some of the posters on here are braindead.,better if you know nothing say nothing.

So you are 70 and your wife is 24? Just kidding mate but could not resist!

[JLCrab]

Herb Simon, age 78, with his wife the former Miss Universe 'Bui' from Thailand, age 44 -- I wonder how he has ever made it without this sterling advice from the Thai Visa Members (BTW Herb's net worth is now estimated at $US 2 billion):

[h90]

because I read here about poor people who can hardly effort to eat.

Here we are looking hard to find a cleaning woman for 10.000 Baht per month and no one want to do this dirty work.

So we are now 4 month without cleaning in the office.

So no one is desperate and hungry. It is just more comfortable to stay at home and ask your rich husband for money than working hard from morning to evening for much less money.

Beside if having to choose between a poor young Thai husband who may cheating and drinking and an older rich educated Farang which is neat and nice they choose the old guy.

[itchybum]

Herb does not look 70 in that fine suit.

His 2 billion has nothing to do with anything.

[khunpa]

Herb Simon, age 78, with his wife the former Miss Universe 'Bui' from Thailand, age 44 -- I wonder how he has ever made it without this sterling advice from the Thai Visa Members (BTW Herb's net worth is now estimated at $US 2 billion):

And might I add, that he is damn HANSUM-looking!

Must be a blast for this woman to go to bed with him every night... True love!

[theblether]

It's the Family Tree Game!

Can you name your Great Grandparents? Bonus point if you can name any Great Grandmothers maiden name.

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What's my point?, Your Great Grandmother will recognize the choices faced by young women here. Anyone before her would absolutely have recognized it.

Here's one for you.......do any of you recognize this?

When Debt Comes Through The Front Door, Love Goes Out The Back Door.

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[richard_smith237]

Herb Simon, age 78, with his wife the former Miss Universe 'Bui' from Thailand, age 44 -- I wonder how he has ever made it without this sterling advice from the Thai Visa Members (BTW Herb's net worth is now estimated at $US 2 billion):

You have found one exception to the Generalisation, of course there will be many more. However, that doesn't make the generalisation that 'financially independent women do not date older men' any less accurate.

It would be the same as suggesting that Volvos are highly reliable cars then posting evidence of one which has broken down.

The singular can not outweigh or disprove a general observation.

To clarify my point further: Could you or would you suggest that this relationship examples more than 50% of relationships in Thailand between older men and younger ladies.

Rod and younger women, Hugh and his playboy bunnies or anyone else of wealth with a younger lady will not disprove this either - we are at best discussing a huge generalisation which while not perfect can be assumed to be representative of the majority.

[JLCrab]

Here's Herb's contact page -- I'm sure he'd be delighted to hear all your collective thoughts & wisdom: https://www.simon.com/contact

BTW he owns shopping malls so far in Japan, Korea and Malaysia -- not yet Thailand

[FiftyTwo]

I believe it is possible for a Thai lady to love a foreigner.

I don't believe it is possible for a Thai lady to love many of the foreigners I know or see posting here (including me).

But at least my Thai/English children love me, and I'll settle for that.

[transam]

I sometimes think that some of the posters on here are braindead.,better if you know nothing say nothing.

OK , I was going to say something, now sulking.

[Phronesis]

I think the concept of "Double Love" is very valid here in Thailand.

Many girls have grown up without a positive fatherly influence. Either because the father is a dysfunctional alcohol, or he took off at the first available opportunity. This creates a yearning in these girls that I will label: "Father Hunger".

I will use my current girlfriend as an example. She is 22 years younger than me. She is beautiful and bright and works as a lawyer. She studied law at Songkla.

She put herself through college by working part time as a waitress and working full time during summer breaks. She also has a student loan of about 200KTHB.

Her father is a nasty alcoholic and drinks lao khao daily. My girlfriend describes him as distant, abusive and angry.

My girlfriend is very loving with me. But there are two distinct facets to this affection:

The first is the playful intimacy and sex you would expect in any good relationship.

The second is harder to describe, but it is like a gratitude that is given in return for my providing fatherly wisdom and guidance regarding day to day issues. Buying a second hand motorcycle is a recent example.

And so I believe that this is why so many Thai girls are happy to be in a relationship with an older guy. They get to sate their Father Hunger as well as enjoying the other regular benefits of a relationship such as trust, intimacy and sex.

In the past the threat to double love relationships was of course the bloke getting to old to keep up his end of the sex deal. But the drug companies have intervened to provide a solution to that problem and so, in my humble opinion, the future is very bright for double love relationships.

[theblether]

Very interesting post Phronesis, thanks very much.

[JLCrab]

I don't think so far I've suggested anything (Volvos?), but I will here: I'm guessing at age 32 when she married Simon and having been Miss Universe since age 19 (correction) Ms. Bui had been-around-the-block enough to know what she wanted and didn't want regardless of what Mr. Simon himself wanted out of the arrangement.

Edited September 16, 2013 by JLCrab

[NCC1701A]

I think the concept of "Double Love" is very valid here in Thailand.

Many girls have grown up without a positive fatherly influence. Either because the father is a dysfunctional alcohol, or he took off at the first available opportunity. This creates a yearning in these girls that I will label: "Father Hunger".

I will use my current girlfriend as an example. She is 22 years younger than me. She is beautiful and bright and works as a lawyer. She studied law at Songkla.

She put herself through college by working part time as a waitress and working full time during summer breaks. She also has a student loan of about 200KTHB.

Her father is a nasty alcoholic and drinks lao khao daily. My girlfriend describes him as distant, abusive and angry.

My girlfriend is very loving with me. But there are two distinct facets to this affection:

The first is the playful intimacy and sex you would expect in any good relationship.

The second is harder to describe, but it is like a gratitude that is given in return for my providing fatherly wisdom and guidance regarding day to day issues. Buying a second hand motorcycle is a recent example.

And so I believe that this is why so many Thai girls are happy to be in a relationship with an older guy. They get to sate their Father Hunger as well as enjoying the other regular benefits of a relationship such as trust, intimacy and sex.

In the past the threat to double love relationships was of course the bloke getting to old to keep up his end of the sex deal. But the drug companies have intervened to provide a solution to that problem and so, in my humble opinion, the future is very bright for double love relationships.

Yes understanding the family dynamic of your girlfriend/wife is very important.

This is a serious question. Does your girlfriend have a teddy bear? Does she take it with her when she travels? does she talk to it?

[ExpatJ]

Lets be honest- Bui would not have married Herb if he was a bank manager (or plumber)- no way, no how.

Love can of course exist in old man/young lady marriages- but the reality is that in every case i know of old farang/young thai wife, his young wife will be sleeping around behind his back.

[JLCrab]

Lets be honest- Bui would not have married Herb if he was a bank manager (or plumber)- no way, no how.

Love can of course exist in old man/young lady marriages- but the reality is that in every case i know of old farang/young thai wife, his young wife will be sleeping around behind his back.

but the reality is ... No -- that's your reality.