Berry pickers from Thailand refuse to leave Finland

[joboss]

The Finnish Foreign Ministry believes they hold tourist visas.

I guess their cherry picking visas have been replaced by tourist visas.

They have a ticket home.

[RubbaJohnny]

As someone who has lived as a foreigner in Finland I cannot think of a more honest country,recepted taximeters refusing tips etc.

I have no knowledge of this case but as other shave commented they'll need Sisu (guts) to survive the dark winters.I thought my company car had been stolen at Nokia one night in October until I discovered it was buried in snow

[jocko]

I really don't think we are qualified to know the truth here. There is only 25 protestors and for all we know there are 1,000 berry pickers there. Could be that there are 975 happy pickers.

I would be interested in hearing how much they were told they would make and was it a Thai company that lined it all up for them at a price for their services and was it a reasonable price.

This is a field where workers have been scammed by Thai recruiters and in other cases the business that they work for has abused them.

One wonders (at least I do) how many of these situations would arise if the Thais involved had been given a decent education.

I am a Finn and have been reading articles from different sources and political interest groups there of the incident for the past times. Still I'm quite unaware of the real situation. This case however has not been on top of my interest list, even if both countries involved have been my homes.

Finland have great social security. Something which can be both great thing as letting people to try their wings.. as well as bad thing to let others just to lay down and do nothing.

The 'support group' which is 'helping' the Thai workers are from the freeloaders. They might have beautiful ideas, but which contradicts the realms of life.

At this point the Thai workers were introduced to the political game, which was played by the very leftists people. By very leftist I really mean that. I'm likely considered being on the right side in Finland, which would be very leftist in the USA for example. Different cultures have different ideologies.

There has been some talk about the incident in the general media in Finland, but surprising little. This could mean couple of things. One being that Finnish media does not really know what to make of this situation as it's something which has not really be seen before. They wish to get their facts before publishing the news.

The other is that the few Thai workers are really troublemakers and the media knows this. The best way to silence the trolls is simply to ignore them. There is no need to make a fuzz out of nothing. That would just bring more attention to the case.

I really don't know which is the case. It's probably combination of both.

My understanding the situation is that the workers were told that they can make fortunes by going to Finland. That has been the case in the past. They had pay the tickets in advance, which was a lot of money. For this they borrowed money from Thai loan sharks with huge interest rates.

Previous years there has been mostly good and hardworking people who have gone to the Nordic to pick the berries. Now, after some years, there has been also other kind of people who have been interested to get there.. to get a good money as they have learned. Those new kind of workers might have not considered that to make good money requires hard work.

But the case being in Finland, I'm quite sure it will be investigated quite well in the future. We Finns are quite 'blue eyed' people who like to trust the people we meet. That's how be mingle together. That works well, until someone misuses the trust. Then we'll become drunken Russians.. and everybody knows that's not good news.

No way could a Finn become a drunken Russian to much history before as you well know.

[Guest]

No way could a Finn become a drunken Russian to much history before as you well know.

That's just our (un)polite way to say - Don't even think of screwing us or we'll become your ultimate nightmare

[eddie61]

Finland is a nice country. A regular worker has a much higher standard of living than in Thailand so quite obvious that many would not like to return.

There seems to be more to it than that. Their employer must have tried to short them on something, so they started a protest, and now they're being shifted back home as their visas are terminated. Standard business tactic: no need to pay the last couple months of wages for migrant workers, as they'll be kicked out of the country at the end of their visa anyway and can't come back to pester you.

Surely they have nothing to fear returning to Thailand and letting the famous Thai legal system defend their interests. Dirt poor or filthy rich the law is the same for all in the land of smiles.....pppppppprrrrrrrbbbbhhhhh......hiiiiiiiiiii........

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

my sides hurt......

Edited September 16, 2013 by eddie61

[tfbpa]

You mean taken out of context from the original article.

Here is the opening headline.

"BANGKOK: -- 25 berry pickers from Thailand refused to board their flight back home this weekend, Finnish Yle reported."

Any particular reason you chose to neglect that there was only 25 pickers protesting?

Yes, I am the head-honcho of the support group and want people to think there are millions of Thais in Finland treated unfairly so I can have my 15-min of fame on Television and extort whoever passes my way for my personal gain.

What do you think?

I neglected nothing, I just made an honest and simple mistake with copy/pasting. Hard to believe, I know... sorry...

[monkeycountry]

Just read in a local Finnish paper that the Thai berry pickers have decided to go ahead with picking berries, but on the condition that the Finnish government buy their berries - at 40% above market price :-)

[tingtongteesood]

Force them to pay a 500 baht per day overstay like all of us have to do in Thailand, see how they like that !

[nycjoe]

In vietnams Halong bay a junk that was carrying french tourists held them hostage and they had to jump off of the boat, when one of the crew tried to keep one guy on the boat he hit him with his bag. same deal, it is more capitalist than the usa. We went horseback riding in Dalat and the kid who was leading my horse asked me to tip him before we got back because his boss took all of the tip money.

[Baerboxer]

The Thai pickers were not employed by the company and therefore were not getting paid to do the work. Instead they were being paid for the berries they pick. This is tax-free income in Finland.

The Thai pickers were complaining that they were not taken good care and the locations where they were picking berries were not good enough for them to make a good money. They have also taken loans in Thailand with 5%/month interest rate. This is becoming an burden.

Then very leftist (ex communist party) member of parliament and few others who started to say that bringing Thais to do the work is almost like human trafficking.

After this the group of Thais stopped to work and the company who was managing the operation got them tickets back home. Thais refused after being told by the 'supporters' not to. It's all big mess now.

Finns consider all people equal and have low tolerance of companies who are exploiting low level workers. On other countries the Thais would have already been kicked out already.

These are the things I picked up from Finnish medias. I guess the truth of all of this will come out someday.. and Finland taxpayers will probably pay the show.

Interesting post - thank you.

I wonder what would happen to Finnish or indeed any other nationalities in similar situations in Thailand.

Would Thailand respect their Human Rights and dignity?

No, they might not... but are these really the same people who set the policies of treating foreign labourers like garbage? Are these arrogant high ranking policemen or Chinese-Thai politicians and civil servants? Farm labourers here, Thai or foreign also get treated like rubbish by those same people.... so are you advocating that western countries mistreat the labourers the same way their oppressors mistreat us - simply because they are Thai? Are you suggesting that the world drop its standards to the lowest common denominator? What are you getting at, if anything?

Think about it. You'll get there in the end.

[harrycallahan]

In Australia they justify bringing immigrants by saying locals are too lazy. They don't mention the below usual minimum wage the per container pay structure ends up paying, and the ad-hoc work irregular work ("when the fruit is ripe"), living out of tents and barns-come-guesthouses, the fact that they never tried to employ locals.

You're right they should pay them double triple wages and put them in 5 star hotels..................then you can complain the berry's are too expensive

No they should pay the minimum wage at least and admit the work is shit for various reasons rather than slandering a nation of people, many of whom do tough work for low pay.

[jbrain]

In Australia they justify bringing immigrants by saying locals are too lazy. They don't mention the below usual minimum wage the per container pay structure ends up paying, and the ad-hoc work irregular work ("when the fruit is ripe"), living out of tents and barns-come-guesthouses, the fact that they never tried to employ locals.

You're right they should pay them double triple wages and put them in 5 star hotels..................then you can complain the berry's are too expensive

No they should pay the minimum wage at least and admit the work is shit for various reasons rather than slandering a nation of people, many of whom do tough work for low pay.

I believe in a free market of supply and demand. It are the unions with their ridiculous demands that have killed it for everyone in the past 50 years or so.

We need a higher salary and want to work less. You have to give us this and that or we don't work anymore.

What they forget to realize is that with each demand prices of consumer goods go up, until it reaches a level that the man in the street can't afford them anymore.

Manufacturers have to leave the country to be able to produce at a price that the man in the street can afford, however since they've left that man in the street lost his job and now can't afford that product anymore even at a lower price.

It's all a vicious circle.

In Europe the Polish workers do a roaring trade as plumber, construction worker or whatever occupation because they work cheaper than the workers of the country they are traveling. They are welcomed by the Dutch, Belgian, German or whatever nationality because if they want to have a job done by their countrymen they have to pay an arm and a leg, that is if they even can find someone who want to perform the job, while the Polish do the job to the same standard at a fraction of the price.

There is only one group that complains, and that are those who don't want to do the job at the same price.

[monkeycountry]

In Australia they justify bringing immigrants by saying locals are too lazy. They don't mention the below usual minimum wage the per container pay structure ends up paying, and the ad-hoc work irregular work ("when the fruit is ripe"), living out of tents and barns-come-guesthouses, the fact that they never tried to employ locals.

You're right they should pay them double triple wages and put them in 5 star hotels..................then you can complain the berry's are too expensive

No they should pay the minimum wage at least and admit the work is shit for various reasons rather than slandering a nation of people, many of whom do tough work for low pay.

I believe in a free market of supply and demand. It are the unions with their ridiculous demands that have killed it for everyone in the past 50 years or so.

We need a higher salary and want to work less. You have to give us this and that or we don't work anymore.

What they forget to realize is that with each demand prices of consumer goods go up, until it reaches a level that the man in the street can't afford them anymore.

Manufacturers have to leave the country to be able to produce at a price that the man in the street can afford, however since they've left that man in the street lost his job and now can't afford that product anymore even at a lower price.

It's all a vicious circle.

In Europe the Polish workers do a roaring trade as plumber, construction worker or whatever occupation because they work cheaper than the workers of the country they are traveling. They are welcomed by the Dutch, Belgian, German or whatever nationality because if they want to have a job done by their countrymen they have to pay an arm and a leg, that is if they even can find someone who want to perform the job, while the Polish do the job to the same standard at a fraction of the price.

There is only one group that complains, and that are those who don't want to do the job at the same price.

Your last statement is true, however that group consists of pretty much every native worker in those countries, a rather large group :-)

The only people who like the polish workers in those countries are the employers for obvious reasons - a very small group in comparison. Fortunately for the employers they have the EU on their side, so local governments cannot block the polish workers, unless their country leaves the EU.

remark: just to be clear. People have nothing against the polish as people. It is the low wage competition they are against.

Edited September 16, 2013 by monkeycountry

[jbrain]

I believe in a free market of supply and demand. It are the unions with their ridiculous demands that have killed it for everyone in the past 50 years or so.

We need a higher salary and want to work less. You have to give us this and that or we don't work anymore.

What they forget to realize is that with each demand prices of consumer goods go up, until it reaches a level that the man in the street can't afford them anymore.

Manufacturers have to leave the country to be able to produce at a price that the man in the street can afford, however since they've left that man in the street lost his job and now can't afford that product anymore even at a lower price.

It's all a vicious circle.

In Europe the Polish workers do a roaring trade as plumber, construction worker or whatever occupation because they work cheaper than the workers of the country they are traveling. They are welcomed by the Dutch, Belgian, German or whatever nationality because if they want to have a job done by their countrymen they have to pay an arm and a leg, that is if they even can find someone who want to perform the job, while the Polish do the job to the same standard at a fraction of the price.

There is only one group that complains, and that are those who don't want to do the job at the same price.

Your last statement is true, however that group consists of pretty much every native worker in those countries, a rather large group :-)

The only people who like the polish workers in those countries are the employers for obvious reasons - a very small group in comparison. Fortunately for the employers they have the EU on their side, so local governments cannot block the polish workers, unless their country leaves the EU.

remark: just to be clear. People have nothing against the polish as people. It is the low wage competition they are against.

You consider the employers a small group, you should keep in mind that every individual who needs to have a job done is an employer in this case, because these Polish tradesmen are self-employed and just drive from house to house.

What holds back the western Europeans from working at the same rate ?

As I said the Unions and the workers have killed their golden goose with their silly demands.

I've always been self employed and made good money, but I worked for it and wasn't scared of working 15 hours a day 7 days a week.

Try to find a factory worker these days who agrees to work 40 hours a week.

Edited September 16, 2013 by jbrain

[monkeycountry]

I believe in a free market of supply and demand. It are the unions with their ridiculous demands that have killed it for everyone in the past 50 years or so.

We need a higher salary and want to work less. You have to give us this and that or we don't work anymore.

What they forget to realize is that with each demand prices of consumer goods go up, until it reaches a level that the man in the street can't afford them anymore.

Manufacturers have to leave the country to be able to produce at a price that the man in the street can afford, however since they've left that man in the street lost his job and now can't afford that product anymore even at a lower price.

It's all a vicious circle.

In Europe the Polish workers do a roaring trade as plumber, construction worker or whatever occupation because they work cheaper than the workers of the country they are traveling. They are welcomed by the Dutch, Belgian, German or whatever nationality because if they want to have a job done by their countrymen they have to pay an arm and a leg, that is if they even can find someone who want to perform the job, while the Polish do the job to the same standard at a fraction of the price.

There is only one group that complains, and that are those who don't want to do the job at the same price.

Your last statement is true, however that group consists of pretty much every native worker in those countries, a rather large group :-)

The only people who like the polish workers in those countries are the employers for obvious reasons - a very small group in comparison. Fortunately for the employers they have the EU on their side, so local governments cannot block the polish workers, unless their country leaves the EU.

remark: just to be clear. People have nothing against the polish as people. It is the low wage competition they are against.

You consider the employers a small group, you should keep in mind that every individual who needs to have a job done is an employer in this case, because these Polish tradesmen are self-employed and just drive from house to house.

What holds back the western Europeans from working at the same rate ?

As I said the Unions and the workers have killed their golden goose with their silly demands.

I've always been self employed and made good money, but I worked for it and wasn't scared of working 15 hours a day 7 days a week.

Try to find a factory worker these days who agrees to work 40 hours a week.

It is a long discussion that I do not wish to have here, but to answer a couole of your questions.

Yes, some polish workers work on their own fixing stuff for people, but the majority work for polish registered subcontractors who in turn work for local companies. This way the avoid minimum wage, in some cases taxes and other regulations.

Most polish workers keep their families in Poland where everything is much cheaper. They then just live on a minimum in the country they work in, and send the rest of the money home. For obvious reasons the locals cannot do that.

Anyway, it is a long and complicates discussion, so let us just agree to disagree.

Btw, I don't personally care about this issue, I am simply stating what most people in those countries are thinking, and that they are not exactly welcoming cheap labour, they are stuck with it.

[Globeman]

The Thai pickers were not employed by the company and therefore were not getting paid to do the work. Instead they were being paid for the berries they pick. This is tax-free income in Finland.

The Thai pickers were complaining that they were not taken good care and the locations where they were picking berries were not good enough for them to make a good money. They have also taken loans in Thailand with 5%/month interest rate. This is becoming an burden.

Then very leftist (ex communist party) member of parliament and few others who started to say that bringing Thais to do the work is almost like human trafficking.

After this the group of Thais stopped to work and the company who was managing the operation got them tickets back home. Thais refused after being told by the 'supporters' not to. It's all big mess now.

Finns consider all people equal and have low tolerance of companies who are exploiting low level workers. On other countries the Thais would have already been kicked out already.

These are the things I picked up from Finnish medias. I guess the truth of all of this will come out someday.. and Finland taxpayers will probably pay the show.

Interesting post - thank you.

I wonder what would happen to Finnish or indeed any other nationalities in similar situations in Thailand.

Would Thailand respect their Human Rights and dignity?

No, they might not... but are these really the same people who set the policies of treating foreign labourers like garbage? Are these arrogant high ranking policemen or Chinese-Thai politicians and civil servants? Farm labourers here, Thai or foreign also get treated like rubbish by those same people.... so are you advocating that western countries mistreat the labourers the same way their oppressors mistreat us - simply because they are Thai? Are you suggesting that the world drop its standards to the lowest common denominator? What are you getting at, if anything?

Think about it. You'll get there in the end.

Nah, I'm obviously stupid and need you to actually address my questions.

[Whidbeyboy]

Give them another couple of months there and the

temperature will be in the minuses. See how many

want to stay then.

Now is September.....Lets talk again mid November.

I think that's what I said there old fella.

Unless they are homeless I am sure they can adapt to the cold. Compared to the hardships these people have had, cold weather won't kill them unless they stay outside naked.

[wolf5370]

My wife's sister used to do this every year - they have family in Finland (quite a big Thai community over there - so cold is not that much of a put off). She used to close her café every year to go do it for a couple of months - she could earn a years wages or more doing it. A couple of years back she stopped doing it as the people that brought them over to do it drastically cut the money they paid (they are paid by the barrel full of berries) and it became a lot less desirable (it is hard, boring, work). They were also being mucked about for pay. I would guess the berry market had changed and was not so profitable for the farmers, so the pickers got less money and kept waiting for pay.

[wolf5370]

Once upon a time, before the industrial revolution in Europe, farmers used to hire from the many labourers that worked job to job, food to mouth. All that was needed was for an announcement in the local church and on the local notices and seasonal workers flocked to the farms for their seasonal jobs. Fast forward a century and there are very few seasonal labourers, they either have jobs, or are paid a living wage not to work (courtesy of the welfare net). Farmers need to bring in the seasonal workers from abroad - and as most of Europe is in the same boat, that means from Asia. The governments of countries where such agricultural income is still important, recognise this and set up special visas to realise it.

This is not the same as open borders (EU) or skilled workers coming in to fulfil a role that can not readily be found in-country (OK, that's a separate discussion). This is just bodies. If they are fit enough to pick, that is all that is required, no advanced berry-picking degrees needed! If Thailand becomes too much of an issue (and 25 from 1000+ is nothing more than the usual dross you get in any employ) then sights will simply be levelled at other countries - Burma, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, Bangladesh, Nepal, and so on - there are plenty of choices!

The only concession that should be made really, IMHO, is for a guarantee of ticket price refunds (or better yet pre-paid tickets via FinAir) - this can be taken from earnings at the end of the season and any shortfall made up (by the farmer) - that way lazy workers will gain nothing from it, hard workers will go home in net profit, and those that get crap pickings still don't go home in debt. It would also stop farmers brining over too many workers to get quick to market, at the cost of reduced wages/pickings for all.

//Edit: Typos

Edited September 16, 2013 by wolf5370

[osiboy]

In Australia they justify bringing immigrants by saying locals are too lazy. They don't mention the below usual minimum wage the per container pay structure ends up paying, and the ad-hoc work irregular work ("when the fruit is ripe"), living out of tents and barns-come-guesthouses, the fact that they never tried to employ locals.

same the UK ,they hire gangs of workers from eastern europe on pittance wages direct and dont even offer jobs to UK workers ,farmers are greedy and guilty .

but not as selfish as the Govt allowing immigrants to work for less than min wage so the supermarkets can keep food prices low for the masses , corruption exists everywhere .

[chooka]

Bung them in Fin immigration lockup and then blacklist them for 99 years... Thai stylie.

You can't treat Thais the same as they treat others, that would not be fair they are a superior race.

[chooka]

If all the fruit pickers from Finland, Sweden etc weren't over in Australia picking fruit then Finland wouldn't have this problem. Anyway the companies in Australia who are importing pickers are screwing them over big time also. The middleman making big money and the pickers virtually working for nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=jO3sEujf5lE

Edited September 16, 2013 by chooka

[MB1]

I remembered a topic I participated in from over 3 years ago about the berry pickers in Finland, guess what the search function worked, I typed in berry pickers and came up with the below link for anyone interested in reading it..

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/383248-thai-workers-head-for-blueberry-fields-in-finland/

[boomerangutang]

Is there any evidence to support your hypothesis, or are you just speaking from your heart?

The above question is about the 'ratchet affect' - where the highest estimated earnings number mentioned to a Thai, is the number they'll expect. The answer is 'yes'. But there are too many personal experience examples, and it would take too long to type them out here.

they don't want to go back a 3rd world country they know where they're better off

Prejudice..... Regarding one country as superior to another.... Cause of all the trouble in the world...

.....Not prejudice, just plain common sense from observations. Speak with any Thai women, for example, who have gone to live in Europe or US. Chances are, if they visit Thailand, it's to see relatives, not to relocate back to Thailand.

Edited September 17, 2013 by boomerangutang

[Docno]

Amazed by the (low) amount of compassion being expressed here. There's clearly more to the story than appears in the original article (as a few more knowledgeable posters have highlighted), but so many people here are prepared to blame the Thais, be dismissive of them, or even insult them. A single farang gets ripped off by a company or the government (or a jet-ski operation) here, and it's an outrage. But a group of Thai workers protesting their treatment overseas is seen as a joke or worse... I guess TITV

[uptheos]

They can experience a traditional Christmas.

[itchybum]

Amazed by the (low) amount of compassion being expressed here. There's clearly more to the story than appears in the original article (as a few more knowledgeable posters have highlighted), but so many people here are prepared to blame the Thais, be dismissive of them, or even insult them. A single farang gets ripped off by a company or the government (or a jet-ski operation) here, and it's an outrage. But a group of Thai workers protesting their treatment overseas is seen as a joke or worse... I guess TITV

Karmas a bitch...

[samran]

Amazed by the (low) amount of compassion being expressed here. There's clearly more to the story than appears in the original article (as a few more knowledgeable posters have highlighted), but so many people here are prepared to blame the Thais, be dismissive of them, or even insult them. A single farang gets ripped off by a company or the government (or a jet-ski operation) here, and it's an outrage. But a group of Thai workers protesting their treatment overseas is seen as a joke or worse... I guess TITV

Karmas a bitch...

if it applies to the same person. If not, your comment is just one of a stupid idiot who likes to bundle people in to groups and treat them as one.

[Bokchoi]

Finland is a nice country. A regular worker has a much higher standard of living than in Thailand so quite obvious that many would not like to return.

There seems to be more to it than that. Their employer must have tried to short them on something, so they started a protest, and now they're being shifted back home as their visas are terminated. Standard business tactic: no need to pay the last couple months of wages for migrant workers, as they'll be kicked out of the country at the end of their visa anyway and can't come back to pester you.

Your correct there is more to it. For one - unlike Thailand - Finland does have labor laws & tribunals which listen to both sides and arbitrate. It means workers are not locked into expensive & slow court processes. Also - foreign workers with language difficulties are offered free support, legal aid and translation services. Much more than many Thai workers get in the Middle East or even at home in Thailand.

Given this I believe its utter nonsense for anyone to suggest we have "Thai victims" in Finland. Such rubbish. No balance & not well-thought-out opinion.

[Docno]

Finland is a nice country. A regular worker has a much higher standard of living than in Thailand so quite obvious that many would not like to return.

There seems to be more to it than that. Their employer must have tried to short them on something, so they started a protest, and now they're being shifted back home as their visas are terminated. Standard business tactic: no need to pay the last couple months of wages for migrant workers, as they'll be kicked out of the country at the end of their visa anyway and can't come back to pester you.

Your correct there is more to it. For one - unlike Thailand - Finland does have labor laws & tribunals which listen to both sides and arbitrate. It means workers are not locked into expensive & slow court processes. Also - foreign workers with language difficulties are offered free support, legal aid and translation services. Much more than many Thai workers get in the Middle East or even at home in Thailand.

Given this I believe its utter nonsense for anyone to suggest we have "Thai victims" in Finland. Such rubbish. No balance & not well-thought-out opinion.

Well, if it's such "rubbish" perhaps we need some third party assessment of the situation. Below is a quote from the US State Dept's 2013 report on global human trafficking (http://www.state.gov/j/tip/rls/tiprpt/2013/210549.htm):

"Finland is a transit, destination, and limited source country for women and girls subjected to sex trafficking, and for men and women subjected to conditions of forced labor. Female sex trafficking victims originate in Estonia, Russia, Latvia, Lithuania, Czech Republic, Poland, Romania, Nigeria, West Africa, and Southeast Asia. Forced labor victims come from a variety of countries including Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, China, Thailand, Vietnam, Kyrgyzstan, Ukraine, India, and Belarus, and are exploited in the construction industry, restaurants, agriculture, and as cleaners and domestic servants."

Few (if any) countries are free of such problems...