thai wife cant own land

[dazk]

My wife was told yesterday that because she has taken my surname she cannot own land is this true, surely not

[Ginkas]

No, it is NOT true.

Many years ago there was a restriction on Thai women who married foreigners from owning land, but this was changed decades ago.

Taking your name or not makes no difference.

[Pib]

Nope...not true....my wife has my surname....land we (she) own is in her name...or should I say my surname which is now her surname...and I have an usufruct on the land.

[maprao]

Ginkas is correct this was changed years ago. She can buy and own land.

[billd766]

Perhaps someone is looking for some "tea" money

[lopburi3]

But it is true that she will have to declare the funds as hers alone and you will have to sign paperwork of no claim as her husband when married. This is the new system - previously land department would just not register ownership so in effect wife could not own new property if married to a foreigner and it was known (by name change).

[Tywais]

This law was changed in March 23, 1999 which allowed a Thai woman to own land again while married to a foreigner.

[Tywais]

Ministry of Interior regulation dated March 23 1999

The procedure for the acquisition of land by Thais having spouses being aliens, either by lawful marriage or unlawful marriage (without proper registration like a common-law marriage) and children of foreigners have been changed to be as follows:

Any Thai having a foreign spouse may purchase or accept land as a gift with no consideration and register the ownership of such land during marriage under the condition that the spouse must jointly provide a written legal confirmation stating that the entire source of funds for such purchase or gift is solely from the Personal Property (such as defined by Thai laws) of such Thai.

Without written confirmation from a foreign spouse, the request for such registration must be referred to the Land Department in order to obtain an approval from the Minister.

[breadbin]

Maybe your wife is telling you that because she wants to put it in a trusted family members name???!!

Be on your guard.

[keeniau96]

It would have been a bit easier if my wife had kept her Thai name at marriage. Seeing farang name on chanote upgrade application very likely upped the tea money at the Land office.

[tingtong]

Maybe your wife is telling you that because she wants to put it in a trusted family members name???!!

Be on your guard.

since one has to sign off a form that it is solely the wife's money that buying the land...even though of course usually it is the exact opposite...

there wont be much ground for claims, i would think.

maybe drawing up a money lending contract for your private fund...then you could claim repayment from family member of wife back if event go sour?

[Bcgardener]

It would have been a bit easier if my wife had kept her Thai name at marriage. Seeing farang name on chanote upgrade application very likely upped the tea money at the Land office.

Before we were married Thai friends in Australia advised my wife to keep her surname for this reason (this was before 1999). Now we are living in Thailand it makes everything so much easier. That farang surname on the ID card appears to be an excuse to want more money for everything, whether buying land or the tea money with government departments. She also doesn't advertise the fact that she has an Aussie passport as this creates similar issues.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[dazk]

Maybe your wife is telling you that because she wants to put it in a trusted family members name???!!

Be on your guard.

no that is not the issue the subject came up in a conversation with a thai friend the other day

not all thai ladies are cheats and scammers

Edited September 29, 2013 by dazk

[bra]

Ministry of Interior regulation dated March 23 1999

The procedure for the acquisition of land by Thais having spouses being aliens, either by lawful marriage or unlawful marriage (without proper registration like a common-law marriage) and children of foreigners have been changed to be as follows:

Any Thai having a foreign spouse may purchase or accept land as a gift with no consideration and register the ownership of such land during marriage under the condition that the spouse must jointly provide a written legal confirmation stating that the entire source of funds for such purchase or gift is solely from the Personal Property (such as defined by Thai laws) of such Thai.

Without written confirmation from a foreign spouse, the request for such registration must be referred to the Land Department in order to obtain an approval from the Minister.

So if I give her the money it then becomes her "Personal Property" and then meets the requirement "entire source of funds for such purchase or gift is solely from the Personal Property (such as defined by Thai laws) of such Thai."? Or am I understanding this incorrectly?

[hansnl]

No, it is NOT true.

Many years ago there was a restriction on Thai women who married foreigners from owning land, but this was changed decades ago.

Taking your name or not makes no difference.

On the other hand, there is some issue about the origin of the money for the buying, where it is coming from.

There is a document available in the Land Office where the wife states the money is and was hers before the marriage.

If that document is completed by the wife, the problem is solved.

She can buy land, houses, whatever.

The name indeed, should not and must not be an issue.

The funds, however, could become an issue.

Suppose she buys the land, while married.

The money came from you.

Now you divorce, so as the money was yours before the marriage, there would be an issue.

[Garry]

It would have been a bit easier if my wife had kept her Thai name at marriage. Seeing farang name on chanote upgrade application very likely upped the tea money at the Land office.

My wife and I wanted no issues either, so she has her family name and my surname . Everybody is happy. Land, passports etc, no issues.

[brianb1944]

Ministry of Interior regulation dated March 23 1999

The procedure for the acquisition of land by Thais having spouses being aliens, either by lawful marriage or unlawful marriage (without proper registration like a common-law marriage) and children of foreigners have been changed to be as follows:

Any Thai having a foreign spouse may purchase or accept land as a gift with no consideration and register the ownership of such land during marriage under the condition that the spouse must jointly provide a written legal confirmation stating that the entire source of funds for such purchase or gift is solely from the Personal Property (such as defined by Thai laws) of such Thai.

Without written confirmation from a foreign spouse, the request for such registration must be referred to the Land Department in order to obtain an approval from the Minister.

So if I give her the money it then becomes her "Personal Property" and then meets the requirement "entire source of funds for such purchase or gift is solely from the Personal Property (such as defined by Thai laws) of such Thai."? Or am I understanding this incorrectly?

That sounds about right, a bit scary having to swear that you didnt put any money up, leaves you without a paddle if things go pear shaped.

[Arkady]

It was and is a matter of interpretation because the Land Code is not specific on this point. Prior to the letter of the Ministry of Interior (most urgent No. Mo 0710/vor 792 dated 23 March 1999), correctly cited in translation by Tywais above, the legal interpretation was totally sexist in that Thai men with foreign partners could buy land freely without resitriction while Thai women with foreign partners, whether legally married or not, were prohibited from doing so. It made no difference whether they had assumed their foreign partner's name or not but that was, of course, a dead give away in the Land Department. (Since adopting a husband's name on marriage was mandatory in Thailand at that time, many couples avoided this by marrying abroad.) The 1997 Constitution rendered this type of vicious discrimination against Thai women unlawful to the extent that the Interior Ministry, spurred on by women's groups, was eventually forced to capitulate and abandon its chauvanistic position. In fact there are now two options for Thais with foreign spouses to lawfully buy land and I quote from Samui for Sale:

1. The Thai spouse has to show evidence that all money paid is a personal property (Sin Suan Tua) according to section 1471 and section 1472 of the Civil and Commercial Code, or;

2. that the Thai and his/her spouse must present themselves at the Land Office (*) to confirm in a standard Land Office letter of confirmation that all money paid for the property is personal property (Sin Suan Tua) not a common property (Sin Som Ros).

Of course the easiest thing to do is simply to sign the declaration in the Land Office.

Since the 1999 letter is just that, a letter rather than an amendment of the Land Code, it should be viewed for what it is which is a temporary measure that could be changed with another ministerial letter without going through parliament. And there is clearly a school of thought in the ministry that views it as too easy for foreigners to buy land through Thai spouses by making the declaration. In 1999 the then director general of the Land Department caused a bit of a stir by saying this:

"Foreigners cannot use a Thai spouse as a nominee to buy property in Thailand, However, if the Thai spouse has enough money to buy the house that is fine, but if the Thai has no money and uses money given to him or her by a foreigner to acquire property, that is against the law. If we check and find out later that a Thai person has been using money from a foreigner to buy land anywhere in Thailand, we will revoke title deeds."

It seemed as if the director general was attempting to rescind the 1999 letter without putting pen to paper. In the event this turned out to be mere male menopausal grandstanding on his part in a feeble attempt to prop up his obviously wilting self esteem by stooping to the last resort of a scoundrel which, those who know their Johnson are well aware, is patriotism.

Be that as may be we need to be alert for any moves that would in fact make option 1 above the only way for a Thai with a foreign spouse to acquire land legally. If things ever did change, it would be unlikely to apply retroactively. At any rate, before panicking we should be mindful of the reasons that the letter was issued in the first place: 1) requiring land officials to police option 1 is too onerous and could cause another back lash by Thai women's groups; 2) there is no desire on the part of chauvanistic ministry officials to make it more difficult for Thai men with foreign partners to buy land. There is also a fine legal argument from the Civil and Commercial Code that any money acquired by either party to a marriage after marriage is common conjugal property (Sin Som Ros). Therefore there would be clear legal grounds for challenging the land department in that money earned by the foreign spouse was automatically the Thai spouse's property as well.

[jacko45k]

Maybe your wife is telling you that because she wants to put it in a trusted family members name???!!

Be on your guard.

no that is not the issue the subject came up in a conversation with a thai friend the other day

not all thai ladies are cheats and scammers

Is yours different too????

[bifftastic]

Ministry of Interior regulation dated March 23 1999

The procedure for the acquisition of land by Thais having spouses being aliens, either by lawful marriage or unlawful marriage (without proper registration like a common-law marriage) and children of foreigners have been changed to be as follows:

Any Thai having a foreign spouse may purchase or accept land as a gift with no consideration and register the ownership of such land during marriage under the condition that the spouse must jointly provide a written legal confirmation stating that the entire source of funds for such purchase or gift is solely from the Personal Property (such as defined by Thai laws) of such Thai.

Without written confirmation from a foreign spouse, the request for such registration must be referred to the Land Department in order to obtain an approval from the Minister.

So if I give her the money it then becomes her "Personal Property" and then meets the requirement "entire source of funds for such purchase or gift is solely from the Personal Property (such as defined by Thai laws) of such Thai."? Or am I understanding this incorrectly?

Sort of.

You sign a declaration at the land office stating that you waive any rights to the land in the event of divorce. That means that the law that says anything that has been acquired after marriage is split 50/50 after divorce no longer contradicts the law that says foreigners can't own land.

What you actually do with the money, is buy the house with it. We bought ours for cash. Gave the money to the seller in a coffee shop, with the Pu Yai Baan there to witness the sale and countersign the sale contract. The tax was handed over, again in cash, at the land office itself.

[Arkady]

Ministry of Interior regulation dated March 23 1999

The procedure for the acquisition of land by Thais having spouses being aliens, either by lawful marriage or unlawful marriage (without proper registration like a common-law marriage) and children of foreigners have been changed to be as follows:

Any Thai having a foreign spouse may purchase or accept land as a gift with no consideration and register the ownership of such land during marriage under the condition that the spouse must jointly provide a written legal confirmation stating that the entire source of funds for such purchase or gift is solely from the Personal Property (such as defined by Thai laws) of such Thai.

Without written confirmation from a foreign spouse, the request for such registration must be referred to the Land Department in order to obtain an approval from the Minister.

So if I give her the money it then becomes her "Personal Property" and then meets the requirement "entire source of funds for such purchase or gift is solely from the Personal Property (such as defined by Thai laws) of such Thai."? Or am I understanding this incorrectly?

That sounds about right, a bit scary having to swear that you didnt put any money up, leaves you without a paddle if things go pear shaped.

Well, since possession is nine tenths of the law, you will probably not have a paddle anyway. Nonetheless, there is in fact a Supreme Court decision that gave a foreigner getting divorced from his Thai wife the right to a half share in the house he had bought in her name, on the grounds that he was able to prove through remittance and transfer documents that he had remitted the entire funds used to purchase the property from abroad and transferred them to his wife just before the purchase. I think the case related to events that took place before the ministerial letter was in force but it is possible to argue that any contract made between a man and wife can be voided under the Civil and Commercial Code and the declaration, while not being a formal contract, is actually less than a formal contract, since it is just a scrap of paper signed under duress. The CCC certainly takes precedence in Thai law over ministerial letters. Of course, by invoking the CCC in this instance you and your ex would both risk prosecution under the Land Code for conspiring to buy land for an alien through a Thai nominee. However, there is no record that the foreigner in the Supreme Court case was prosecuted.

Basically there is a spider's web of overlapping and contradictory Thai laws here and the whole thing has not be fully challenged. Best advice is to sign the declaration but keep documentary evidence of your remittances and transfers and also set up a lifetime usufruct agreement for yourself at nil consideration.

[SSSlongtime]

No Its not true ,my wifes got english name got quite few lots land, no problems at all apart from i used to have houses and land in the Uk ,today all gone so i see its as a big problem ,every day you live a little die a little at last i got litter wiser ,No is a hard word for a thai lady,some never heard it

[robertson468]

Ministry of Interior regulation dated March 23 1999

The procedure for the acquisition of land by Thais having spouses being aliens, either by lawful marriage or unlawful marriage (without proper registration like a common-law marriage) and children of foreigners have been changed to be as follows:

Any Thai having a foreign spouse may purchase or accept land as a gift with no consideration and register the ownership of such land during marriage under the condition that the spouse must jointly provide a written legal confirmation stating that the entire source of funds for such purchase or gift is solely from the Personal Property (such as defined by Thai laws) of such Thai.

Without written confirmation from a foreign spouse, the request for such registration must be referred to the Land Department in order to obtain an approval from the Minister.

So if I give her the money it then becomes her "Personal Property" and then meets the requirement "entire source of funds for such purchase or gift is solely from the Personal Property (such as defined by Thai laws) of such Thai."? Or am I understanding this incorrectly?

That sounds about right, a bit scary having to swear that you didnt put any money up, leaves you without a paddle if things go pear shaped.

I am no lawyer and am going from third hand information, but I understand it, if there is a divorce then there is a 50-50 split on property, cars, finances etc. Please correct me if I am wrong - barring any pre-nuptial agreement of course.

[FiestyFarang]

But it is true that she will have to declare the funds as hers alone and you will have to sign paperwork of no claim as her husband when married. This is the new system - previously land department would just not register ownership so in effect wife could not own new property if married to a foreigner and it was known (by name change).

Fine example of how Thailand takes money from foreigners but gives nothing back. We have very few rights here, even if we have children with a Thai we still need Visas, the only country I know like this. What happens if we run out of money, children will suffer terribly if parents are separated. I think the government look on it that if a Thai has married "out" they are traitors and should go to the "outsider's" country. It does make me angry in 2013 this is still law, racism, pure racism. What is going to happen after 2015 with Asean, I hope Thailand becomes less racist.

[Arkady]

Ministry of Interior regulation dated March 23 1999

The procedure for the acquisition of land by Thais having spouses being aliens, either by lawful marriage or unlawful marriage (without proper registration like a common-law marriage) and children of foreigners have been changed to be as follows:

Any Thai having a foreign spouse may purchase or accept land as a gift with no consideration and register the ownership of such land during marriage under the condition that the spouse must jointly provide a written legal confirmation stating that the entire source of funds for such purchase or gift is solely from the Personal Property (such as defined by Thai laws) of such Thai.

Without written confirmation from a foreign spouse, the request for such registration must be referred to the Land Department in order to obtain an approval from the Minister.

So if I give her the money it then becomes her "Personal Property" and then meets the requirement "entire source of funds for such purchase or gift is solely from the Personal Property (such as defined by Thai laws) of such Thai."? Or am I understanding this incorrectly?

That sounds about right, a bit scary having to swear that you didnt put any money up, leaves you without a paddle if things go pear shaped.

I am no lawyer and am going from third hand information, but I understand it, if there is a divorce then there is a 50-50 split on property, cars, finances etc. Please correct me if I am wrong - barring any pre-nuptial agreement of course.

You are not quite right. The Thai Civil and Commercial Code provides for a 50:50 split in the event of divorce only of property that was acquired by either party after marriage. This is regarded as conjugal property (Sin Som Ros), whereas property acquired before marriage is regarded as personal property (Sin Suan Tua) which is not to be be divided. Despite the services provided by sleazy lawyers out to milk foreigners the CCC clearly outranks a pre-nuptial agreement and a court will ignore a pre-nup in which either party has agreed to receive less than the CCC would provide, if there were no pre-nup. The purpose of a pre-nup, as used in the unions of wealthy Thai families, is simply to clearly delineate the personal property of each party prior to marriage. In fact personal property can be declared in front of the district office official that registers your marriage and noted on the marriage certificate at no extra charge. However, for those with long lists of assets, a pre-nup makes sense. Of course a pre-nup might also be of value, if you are going to live in a jurisdiction where these are recognised by courts (i.e. not the UK), or, if you have assets in such a jurisdiction and believe your Thai wife is savvy enough to sue you for them there, and it might also serve to intimidate the Thai spouse into believing she has given up her rights. (A female Thai lawyer friend who practises family law says her foreign clients' bar girl fiancees usually just want to sign them without bothering to listen to here explanation of what they are signing, viewing them as just another piece of paper to sign in order to get to the pot of gold. She, herself, refused to sign one when she married an American, knowing it could be recognised in the US.) Also, of course, they are nice little earners for lawyers.

[BlackJack]

Maybe your wife is telling you that because she wants to put it in a trusted family members name???!!

Be on your guard.

no that is not the issue the subject came up in a conversation with a thai friend the other day

not all thai ladies are cheats and scammers

Is yours different too????

[chrisrazz]

It would have been a bit easier if my wife had kept her Thai name at marriage. Seeing farang name on chanote upgrade application very likely upped the tea money at the Land office.

Before we were married Thai friends in Australia advised my wife to keep her surname for this reason (this was before 1999). Now we are living in Thailand it makes everything so much easier. That farang surname on the ID card appears to be an excuse to want more money for everything, whether buying land or the tea money with government departments. She also doesn't advertise the fact that she has an Aussie passport as this creates similar issues.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Good point Bc. When we married in Australia, we went to Thai consulate and were advised by the officer there not to change her surname. She also has an Australian passport. No problems with land owning or travelling. Check in at the airport with the Aussie passport, enter leave Thailand on the Thai passport. Enter or leave destination country on the Aussie passport, unless going to Laos.

[shaurene]

Maybe your wife is telling you that because she wants to put it in a trusted family members name???!!

Be on your guard.

Hey mate

You are a youngster on the forum with 900 posts this guy is in the special circle group so listen to a master, telling him to be careful.

[shaurene]

It would have been a bit easier if my wife had kept her Thai name at marriage. Seeing farang name on chanote upgrade application very likely upped the tea money at the Land office.

Before we were married Thai friends in Australia advised my wife to keep her surname for this reason (this was before 1999). Now we are living in Thailand it makes everything so much easier. That farang surname on the ID card appears to be an excuse to want more money for everything, whether buying land or the tea money with government departments. She also doesn't advertise the fact that she has an Aussie passport as this creates similar issues.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Good point Bc. When we married in Australia, we went to Thai consulate and were advised by the officer there not to change her surname. She also has an Australian passport. No problems with land owning or travelling. Check in at the airport with the Aussie passport, enter leave Thailand on the Thai passport. Enter or leave destination country on the Aussie passport, unless going to Laos.

My wife has Thai passport she had her Thai surname in it, when we married she applied for name change in her passport to my surname, no hassle all changed

[AYJAYDEE]

It would have been a bit easier if my wife had kept her Thai name at marriage. Seeing farang name on chanote upgrade application very likely upped the tea money at the Land office.

Before we were married Thai friends in Australia advised my wife to keep her surname for this reason (this was before 1999). Now we are living in Thailand it makes everything so much easier. That farang surname on the ID card appears to be an excuse to want more money for everything, whether buying land or the tea money with government departments. She also doesn't advertise the fact that she has an Aussie passport as this creates similar issues.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Good point Bc. When we married in Australia, we went to Thai consulate and were advised by the officer there not to change her surname. She also has an Australian passport. No problems with land owning or travelling. Check in at the airport with the Aussie passport, enter leave Thailand on the Thai passport. Enter or leave destination country on the Aussie passport, unless going to Laos.

but surely she must have to show the airline counter her aussie passport as well as the thai or they would not let her on the plane without a visa