Thai govt approves tax-law negotiations with US

[JimGant]

However the foreign banks reporting obligation applies to all US persons irrespective of the amount of money in their accounts.

Wrong. From the model IGA guidance:

I. Preexisting Individual Accounts. The following rules and procedures apply for

identifying U.S. Reportable Accounts among Preexisting Accounts held by individuals

(“Preexisting Individual Accounts”).

A. Accounts Not Required to Be Identified or Reported. Unless the Reporting

[FATCA Partner] Financial Institution elects otherwise, where the

implementing rules in [FATCA Partner] provide for such an election, the

following accounts are not required to be reviewed, identified, or reported as

U.S. Reportable Accounts:

1. Preexisting Individual Accounts with a balance or value that does not exceed $50,000 as of

December 31, 2013.

III. New Individual Accounts. The following rules and procedures apply for

identifying U.S. Reportable Accounts among accounts held by individuals and opened on or

after January 1, 2014 (“New Individual Accounts”).

A. Accounts Not Required to Be Identified or Reported. Unless the Reporting

[FATCA Partner] Financial Institution elects otherwise where the implementing rules

in [FATCA Partner] provide for such an election:

1. A New Individual Account that is a Depository Account is not required

to be reviewed, identified, or reported as a U.S. Reportable Account unless the

account balance exceeds $50,000 [upon being opened, or on Dec 31st].

If you consider this, of course it makes sense. If I have $60,000 in 7 separate bank accounts in Thailand I am obliged to report it. But the IRS would only know that I had $60,000 if all the banks that I had accounts in reported my accounts, even if each one is well below $50,000.

Well, that's how it is. There's still discussion on how, or if, to aggregate totals for individuals who have accounts in several different-country accounts, in a single worldwide bank. Got a headache reading that discussion. But, to try and aggregate all accounts owned by an individual, in all the banks in Thailand, plus all the banks in what ever other countries -- to see if this aggregate exceeds $50k -- ludicrous. So, in one of there rare finer moments, they opted only for an aggregate of all accounts, in a single bank (but including all in-country branches), that exceeded $50k on Dec 31st.

So foreign banks under the IGA must report any account of any amount held by any US person, otherwise evasion would be merely a matter of ensuring you never have a single account that exceeded $50,000. Even the IRS would anticipate that one.

Fortunately, cooler heads realized that requiring a report on every single account owned by a US person, 95% of which are well below $50k, would be insane from almost every standpoint. So, yeah -- if you're a crook, with $1,000,000 (the threshold for 'increased interest'), open accounts in 20+ different Thai banks to stay under the radar. Knock yourself out. The value in collaring these folks, vs the cost of having every US person account reported, is an obvious lopsided conclusion.

FATCA is already a headache for foreign banks, $50k thresholds, or not. Wouldn't surprise me to see this threshold raised to at least $100k.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

While I too am glad that most Yanks will continue to have to pay taxes that citizens of no other country on earth have to pay, that is on money accrued outside the US while they are no longer living in the US...

I'm assuming you are referring to this, the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion...as explained on the U.S. IRS website, which is available to U.S. expats who live in foreign countries with whom the U.S. has an income tax treaty. In other words, if you're already being taxed by the foreign country, you're not going to be double taxed by the U.S. for income tax -- at least, up to $99,200 per year of foreign income.

Foreign Earned Income Exclusion

If you are a U.S. citizen or a resident alien of the United States and you live abroad, you are taxed on your worldwide income. However, you may qualify to exclude from income up to an amount of your foreign earnings that is adjusted annually for inflation ($91,500 for 2010, $92,900 for 2011, $95,100 for 2012, and $97,600 for 2013). [and $99,200 for 2014].

In addition, you can exclude or deduct certain foreign housing amounts.

You may also be entitled to exclude from income the value of meals and lodging provided to you by your employer. Refer to Exclusion of Meals and Lodging in Publication 54, Tax Guide for U.S. Citizens and Resident Aliens Abroad,

http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Foreign-Earned-Income-Exclusion

[bjohn34]

According to the original post, the Thai govt has only agreed to enter into "negotiations" with the US about the implementation of FACTA.

That implies to me that it is not in force yet and probably won't be by the end of this year.

Thoughts??

[Pib]

According to the original post, the Thai govt has only agreed to enter into "negotiations" with the US about the implementation of FACTA.

That implies to me that it is not in force yet and probably won't be by the end of this year.

Thoughts??

Of course the Thai govt will drag it out...remember, TIT. Plus, the ongoing political turmoil and protests will slow down getting a lot of things done.

[partington]

However the foreign banks reporting obligation applies to all US persons irrespective of the amount of money in their accounts.

Wrong. From the model IGA guidance:

A. Accounts Not Required to Be Identified or Reported. Unless the Reporting

[FATCA Partner] Financial Institution elects otherwise, where the

implementing rules in [FATCA Partner] provide for such an election, the

following accounts are not required to be reviewed, identified, or reported as

U.S. Reportable Accounts:

1. Preexisting Individual Accounts with a balance or value that does not exceed $50,000 as of

December 31, 2013.

[snip]

Fortunately, cooler heads realized that requiring a report on every single account owned by a US person, 95% of which are well below $50k, would be insane from almost every standpoint.

OK I was completely wrong about that!

I was almost sure that all US accounts would have to be reported, but your post proves I was mistaken.

I stand corrected, thank you for posting the true picture.

[partington]

While I too am glad that most Yanks will continue to have to pay taxes that citizens of no other country on earth have to pay, that is on money accrued outside the US while they are no longer living in the US...

I'm assuming you are referring to this, the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion...as explained on the U.S. IRS website, which is available to U.S. expats who live in foreign countries with whom the U.S. has an income tax treaty. In other words, if you're already being taxed by the foreign country, you're not going to be double taxed by the U.S. for income tax -- at least, up to $99,200 per year of foreign income.

Yes, as a retired person I'm guilty of focusing on this particular circumstance to the exclusion of others, like being employed.

So while of course you are quite correct to point out that there is an earned income exclusion, for salaried people, this exclusion does not apply to money that forms the source of income for many retired people e.g. interest, dividends, stock sales and pensions, on which full tax is due.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Yes... likewise as a retired person, I pay U.S. federal income tax on my so-called non-earned taxable income, all of which derives from the U.S.

Leaving aside the funds and earnings from them that are in tax sheltered vehicles such was IRAs (where the taxes are deferred) and Roth accounts (where I've already paid once and won't have to pay again).

Meanwhile, I don't have any income earned in Thailand and I don't pay any Thai tax.

There's nothing about that situation that strikes me as unfair.

[JimGant]

According to the original post, the Thai govt has only agreed to enter into "negotiations" with the US about the implementation of FACTA.

That implies to me that it is not in force yet and probably won't be by the end of this year.

Thoughts??

Good question -- what happens if deadlines arrive -- and there is no IGA in effect?

Sounds like Treasury is giving those countries, dealing in 'good faith' toward an IGA, considerable latitude for push back from deadlines by their financial institutions.

So, for those of us in Thailand, that IGA negotiations are contemplated/ongoing, probably means no Thai banks will get hammered by FATCA requirements while an IGA remains in the cards ----

----- which still doesn't mean some Thai banks, still spooked, won't turn out US account holders.

[Jasun]

Does anyone know if this ruling extends to the accounts of spouses of US citizens?

[daxbr]

Perhaps the big bad bear will be nice to you.

[maphraw]

I have been living /working in Thailand for more than 12 years and have 3 Thai bank accounts (joint accounts with my Thai wife.) and a Thai mutual fund. The total does not exceed anywhere near $50,000. Most of our savings are in the US and I file with the IRS every year but I have never declared our Thai assets or interests or dividends. I file the form 2555 for the foreign earned income exclusion. I have never declared my Thai bank account interest or mutual fund dividends because it seemed so little at the time and I thought the IRS would never know anyway and filing it seemed tedious. But the accounts have grown quite a bit over the last 12 years. In other words, I was careless and lazy. So I am going to declare everything when I file with the IRS for the 2013 tax year and I will also file that FBAR thing. I am wondering if the IRS will ask me why I never filed my Thai interest and dividend income before the 2013 tax year. Because apparently they will now know that I have had these Thai assets for the last 12 years but have never declared them. I could very well be subject to a fine. I am hoping they will let it pass or they won't notice that I am only just now declaring them now (wishful thinking I know). I think I am going to have a certified tax accountant in Bangkok do my 2013 income tax returns and I am hoping he can suggest some viable but not costly options. I am sure they have come across similar situations. I know many Americans who don't declare their Thai bank account interest or other Thai assets when they file their IRS tax returns. I guess those days are over.

Any comments.

[JimGant]

I was careless and lazy. So I am going to declare everything when I file with the IRS for the 2013 tax year and I will also file that FBAR thing. I am wondering if the IRS will ask me why I never filed my Thai interest and dividend income before the 2013 tax year. Because apparently they will now know that I have had these Thai assets for the last 12 years

Why would they now know that you had these Thai assets for the last 12 years?

[maphraw]

I am not sure they would. But since Americans are now required to file their foreign bank accounts with FBAR my guess is that FBAR will want to know how long these accounts have been held. In which case the IRS could easily find out. Like I said, I am going to talk to a certified accountant in Bangkok, explain my situation, give him all my Thai bank account and mutual fund information, incur the fee and have him do my taxe returns for 2013. Maybe I am getting worried over nothing. I had a serious problem a few years ago with the IRS because I didn't report some stock transactions in the US correctly. It was quite a stiff fine they said I owed them but a tax accountant in Bangkok went over all of my tax forms and resubmitted them. I also included a long letter of apology. I ended up not owing them anything and was no longer liable for the fine. I was very relieved. The accountant said the IRS will often use scare tactics to get people of their butts and fill out their tax returns correctly and include ALL their income, no matter what the source.

[JimGant]

Good luck. If you would, could you report back here on what course the CPA advised/took? Thanks.

Here's another FBAR link to further muddy the waters:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2013/12/17/whats-the-fbar-statute-of-limitations/

[maphraw]

Since we are on the topic of taxes, I was in a pub in Jomthien last night and there were a number of Americans sitting at the bar, most of who are working in Thailand. I brought up the subject of taxes, the IRS and FBAR. I was amazed at the indifference and lack of concern they displayed regarding the IRS and American taxes. One expat said he transfers his money from his US bank through the Bangkok Bank in NY so he doesn't have to FBAR. Another expat said he hasn't filed his US tax forms in five years All of his money is in Thailand. Another said he is retired and is over 72 years of age and no longer has to file with the IRS. Two expats I work with have no idea what FBAR is and never delcare their interest from Thai banks or dividends and capital gains from their Thai stocks and mutual funds when they file with the IRS. Some of these expats work in the oil industry and you know they are earning serious money, unlike myself.

[JimGant]

Since we are on the topic of taxes, I was in a pub in Jomthien last night

Yeah, after a few boilermakers, tax discussion can become quite interesting.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Since we are on the topic of taxes, I was in a pub in Jomthien last night and there were a number of Americans sitting at the bar, most of who are working in Thailand. I brought up the subject of taxes, the IRS and FBAR. I was amazed at the indifference and lack of concern they displayed regarding the IRS and American taxes. One expat said he transfers his money from his US bank through the Bangkok Bank in NY so he doesn't have to FBAR. Another expat said he hasn't filed his US tax forms in five years All of his money is in Thailand. Another said he is retired and is over 72 years of age and no longer has to file with the IRS. Two expats I work with have no idea what FBAR is and never delcare their interest from Thai banks or dividends and capital gains from their Thai stocks and mutual funds when they file with the IRS. Some of these expats work in the oil industry and you know they are earning serious money, unlike myself.

Perhaps all of the above that you recount is PART of the reason that the U.S. authorities have been stepping up their efforts at identifying and taxing the foreign-earned income/interest, etc of American citizens -- both those living in the U.S. and living abroad.

The basic tax situation for Americans working/living abroad is pretty clear at its heart -- you're liable for income earned anywhere in the world, offset by the appropriate credits, deductions, exemptions, etc etc.

If Americans simply don't care about the law or following it, then they're liable for the consequences. But ignorance and/or indifference isn't much of an excuse.

AFAIK, there's no legal means for an American living abroad and employed to be exempt from filing a U.S. tax return for 5 years.

Likewise, someone over 72 doesn't get a pass on filing federal tax returns based on their age.... unless they have such a SMALL annual income as to be under the tax filing threshhold. But having that small an income would be pretty difficult to live in Thailand or anywhere else for that matter. Last time I checked, the gross income filing threshhold for a single person was about $10,950 or more per year.

Re the guy having his salary paid in the U.S. and then transferred to Thailand via BKKB, he'd still be liable for federal taxes on his salary paid in the U.S. But he might well be legally exempt from FBAR provided his total maximum value of foreign bank deposits didn't exceed $10,000 anytime during the year.

If the aggregate of the maximum account values exceeds $10,000, an

FBAR must be filed. An FBAR is not required to be filed if the person did

not have $10,000 of aggregate value in foreign financial accounts at any

time during the calendar year.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f90221.pdf

[Pib]

People who are just dumb and/or knowingly don't file tax returns are the ones who will always be looking for Uncle Sam over their shoulders and keeping the IRS lawyers fully employed. Plus some will even have some state tax authorities to watch out for. And of course these folks are usually the ones that write sad posts (minus key details) about how Uncle Sam is treating them so bad. But hey, some people always try not to pay (or underpay) taxes and Uncle Sam knows this. He'll eventually catch up to a lot of them one way or another.

[Pib]

I may be wrong, but my initial reaction to this is that it is probably very GOOD news for Americans living in Thailand. Not saying these new regulations are popular (FAR FROM IT! ) but they ARE U.S.A. law, and with strong signs the Thai government is going to fully cooperate, doesn't this suggest that the legitimate fears that many Thai BANKS may dump American customers will now be LESS LIKELY to actually occur?

NO. There are already banks that are not accepting new accounts from Americans.

It is also the simple fact that Thailand is not responsible for enforcing US law. This law will cost banks more and will create more issues...

I have read so far only a report here of only ONE Thai bank refusing to open a regular bank account based on American nationality.

There is general knowledge that INVESTMENT accounts are likely to be rejected by Thai banks in general for Americans.

So far, I do not think we've heard even one report of an American having their regular Thai bank account CLOSED due to nationality.

Don't you think it's a bit early to jump to conclusions about how this is actually going to shake out regarding the issue of Americans being able to open and KEEP regular bank accounts in Thailand? I do.

Yes, strong concern about this is well warranted. But who can know the details ... YET?

I've only seen one also, "supposedly" because the person was American....but in that same thread where the American said he was refused because he was American about a week later another American said, BS because he just opened a new account with the same bank days after the other American was supposedly refused. May have simply been refused because he was a farang...no shortage of those posts on ThaiVisa where expats (all nationalities) couldn't open a Thai bank account....but then some walked down the street to another branch of the same bank or a completely different bank and opened an account no problem. TIT

I've been wanting to open a Thai bank regular savings account "with no ATM/debit card" for a while due to the periodic ATM ripoffs you hear about where bad guys get your ATM card info & PIN somehow and drain your account....then due to the weak Thai consumer protection laws its pretty much a one-on-one between you and the bank in trying to get your money back...little in the terms of banking laws/regulations to really help you...seems to come down more to bank policy more than anything else. Plan is to keep the bulk of my day-to-day Thailand living/spending money in that account and periodically transfer money from that account via my internet ibanking to my other regular savings account(s) which do have ATM/debit cards. But actually, I don't need to keep a large amount day-to-day spending money in those other accounts since I have a couple of no foreign transaction fee debit cards which allow me to get money from my U.S. account fee free and immediately in hand via a magic ATM such as a AEON ATM in order to avoid the Bt150-180 foreign card fee...but having Thai bank accounts can definitely reduce your financial headaches while living in Thailand, paying your bills via ibanking, getting cash from any ATM without worrying about getting hit with foreign transaction fees, in case your foreign debit card stops working/get lost or stolen, and fixed savings accounts pay some pretty good interest in comparision to most U.S. savings accounts. I already have a couple of Bangkok Bank savings accounts with ATM access (one is in another province which I need to cancel), a fixed savings account, and even a Direct Deposit account I used for a few months years back...two of these accounts were opened just this year. Anyway, a few days ago here in Bangkok I went and signed up for another Bangkok Bank savings account but without an ATM/Debit card....signup was a piece of cake...no problems...just the typical signup forms, no extra forms or questions focused toward Americans, just the typical signup forms/info." Piece of cake....multiple regular savings and fixed savings accounts opened this year with zero emphasis on "are you American?"

[hawker9000]

I may be wrong, but my initial reaction to this is that it is probably very GOOD news for Americans living in Thailand. Not saying these new regulations are popular (FAR FROM IT! ) but they ARE U.S.A. law, and with strong signs the Thai government is going to fully cooperate, doesn't this suggest that the legitimate fears that many Thai BANKS may dump American customers will now be LESS LIKELY to actually occur?

NO. There are already banks that are not accepting new accounts from Americans.

It is also the simple fact that Thailand is not responsible for enforcing US law. This law will cost banks more and will create more issues...

I have read so far only a report here of only ONE Thai bank refusing to open a regular bank account based on American nationality.

There is general knowledge that INVESTMENT accounts are likely to be rejected by Thai banks in general for Americans.

So far, I do not think we've heard even one report of an American having their regular Thai bank account CLOSED due to nationality.

Don't you think it's a bit early to jump to conclusions about how this is actually going to shake out regarding the issue of Americans being able to open and KEEP regular bank accounts in Thailand? I do.

Yes, strong concern about this is well warranted. But who can know the details ... YET?

I've only seen one also, "supposedly" because the person was American....but in that same thread where the American said he was refused because he was American about a week later another American said, BS because he just opened a new account with the same bank days after the other American was supposedly refused. May have simply been refused because he was a farang...no shortage of those posts on ThaiVisa where expats (all nationalities) couldn't open a Thai bank account....but then some walked down the street to another branch of the same bank or a completely different bank and opened an account no problem. TIT

I've been wanting to open a Thai bank regular savings account "with no ATM/debit card" for a while due to the periodic ATM ripoffs you hear about where bad guys get your ATM card info & PIN somehow and drain your account....then due to the weak Thai consumer protection laws its pretty much a one-on-one between you and the bank in trying to get your money back...little in the terms of banking laws/regulations to really help you...seems to come down more to bank policy more than anything else. Plan is to keep the bulk of my day-to-day Thailand living/spending money in that account and periodically transfer money from that account via my internet ibanking to my other regular savings account(s) which do have ATM/debit cards. But actually, I don't need to keep a large amount day-to-day spending money in those other accounts since I have a couple of no foreign transaction fee debit cards which allow me to get money from my U.S. account fee free and immediately in hand via a magic ATM such as a AEON ATM in order to avoid the Bt150-180 foreign card fee...but having Thai bank accounts can definitely reduce your financial headaches while living in Thailand, paying your bills via ibanking, getting cash from any ATM without worrying about getting hit with foreign transaction fees, in case your foreign debit card stops working/get lost or stolen, and fixed savings accounts pay some pretty good interest in comparision to most U.S. savings accounts. I already have a couple of Bangkok Bank savings accounts with ATM access (one is in another province which I need to cancel), a fixed savings account, and even a Direct Deposit account I used for a few months years back...two of these accounts were opened just this year. Anyway, a few days ago here in Bangkok I went and signed up for another Bangkok Bank savings account but without an ATM/Debit card....signup was a piece of cake...no problems...just the typical signup forms, no extra forms or questions focused toward Americans, just the typical signup forms/info." Piece of cake....multiple regular savings and fixed savings accounts opened this year with zero emphasis on "are you American?"

I think that's the way to go (keeping the bulk of your money in an ATM-less account, just transferring funds to the ATM-accessible account via internet banking as needed). The question I have is, can you generally do this between accounts at separate thai banks, or do both accounts pretty much need to be with the same bank? It would be SO helpful if you could just disable and enable ATM access to your account entirely by going online and making that selection as needed.

[Pib]

 

hawker9000, on 27 Dec 2013 - 14:58, said:

I think that's the way to go (keeping the bulk of your money in an ATM-less account, just transferring funds to the ATM-accessible account via internet banking as needed). The question I have is, can you generally do this between accounts at separate thai banks, or do both accounts pretty much need to be with the same bank? It would be SO helpful if you could just disable and enable ATM access to your account entirely by going online and making that selection as needed.

 

You can just do a 3rd party transfer, where the 3rd party is your bank account at the other bank.   Like how I do a 3rd party transfer from my Bangkok Bank account to my insurance broker's SCB bank account each year to pay for my auto insurance...that could have just as easily been me transferring money from my Bangkok Bank account to a SCB bank account I had.  Setting up the transfer link is fast & easy...then you can use it over and over whenever needed...and the associated transfer fee is low cost...varies by how fast you want the money transferred...immediately or take a few days.  For example, see below Bangkok Bank ibanking "inter-bank" transfer fees.    

 

And lets say you are an American who would like to use the low cost ACH funds transfer method via their Bangkok Bank New York branch versus using a pricey SWIFT transfer, but you really prefer to use your Kbank, SCB, whatever Thai bank account for most of your Thailand banking.  Well, get a Bangkok Bank account along with ibanking if nothing else just to be able to use the lost cost ACH transfer to your in-Thailand Bangkok Bank account....once the money arrives just use ibanking to transfer it to your other Thai bank.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Generally, with Thai bank savings accounts and their associated ATM cards, you can turn off and/or change your Point of Sale purchase daily limits, including setting that to zero, effectively preventing POS.

But for the Thai banks I'm familiar with, if you have an ATM card, you can't turn off access to the ATM card's use via online banking. You can change the daily limit amount for ATM cash withdrawals (50,000 baht seems to be common as the lowest daily limit a customer can choose). But I've yet to see a Thai bank that allows you to set the ATM cash withdrawal limit to zero and then turn around and change it to allow use for cash withdrawals again.

You can always cancel an ATM card, but that means the card is gone and deactivated. And you'd be required to reapply to get a new card to be associated with that account. Not exactly something you'd want to do on a recurring basis.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I think I've been "FATCA'd"!!!!

Got a letter in the mail the other day from Standard Chartered informing me that I, as a U.S. citizen, would be required, "in order to comply with the laws and regulations of the United States," to fill out and submit to the bank before the end of March:

--an IRS W9 form including my SSN

--an account opening form supplement asking my country of residence, country of birth, U.S. citizenship status and other details.

--a signed copy of my passport

The bank letter also included revised terms and conditions for my account that, after reading all the small print, basically says the bank has the right to share my account details with domestic or overseas authorities, and also that the bank has the right to pay out from my account, or withhold funds from my account "where required by law or order or agreement with regulators or authorities in any jurisdiction, including the domestic or overseas tax authorities."

This is the first time I've received any such letter from any of the Thai banks where I hold accounts, and I haven't seen any mention here on ThaiVisa of others having received such letters as yet.

Just to doublecheck, I called Standard Chartered customer service this afternoon, and got an initial CSR who was no help and relatively clueless. So I asked to speak with her supervisor, and simply wanted to ask a basic question: once I fill out and submit the various forms, is anything going to change about the status of my account with the bank. In short, the supervisor said, NO, as an existing account holder, nothing would change.

However, the supervisor added that if I was going to open a NEW account with the bank, there probably would be more paperwork to complete than before. And, on the account opening form supplement that the bank required, on the reverse, there's section where it says if you've checked some U.S. connection, check with the branch about what banking services can be offered. But I didn't try to get a rundown on that issue.

In talking further with the supervisor, it sounded like she'd handled a fair number of calls from other Americans who had received the bank's letter lately. And from the way she described it, it sounded like a lot of the callers weren't too happy and/or were upset at Standard Chartered over all this. I politely replied to her, that I understood it wasn't the bank's doing but rather was a law and policy of the U.S. government.

At any rate, here's a copy of the letter that the bank sent out. And I hope the IRS is happy now.

[hawker9000]

Anyone getting any of this from other thai banks (yet...)? What happens if you opened an account, still have money in it, but the address you used to open the account was just a temporary address (e.g., hotel address)? Might you be contacted by email as well? I know - it's all new. 'Just wondering out loud.

Edited February 28, 2014 by hawker9000

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The W9 IRS form asks for your street address. So does the back side of the SC account opening supplement, though it's not clear from their letter whether they want existing accountholders to fill in only the front size of that document, or the back side too. Just in case, I filled in the reverse as well.

There's no guidance in any of those documents about whether to list a U.S. or Thai address, but I listed my Thai address. However, the bank's form does specifically ask about country of citizenship AND country of residence. I'm not sure why they specifically want to know one's "residence" for FATCA purposes, though presumably it's relating to one's tax status.

In my case, since it's just a regular savings account with a tiny balance and virtually no interest earned, I think this is all pretty meaningless in my personal case.

BTW, I think Standard Chartered has my email address, but I've received no email communications from them on this subject. I did however, receive two different duplicate letters with their request and documents about a week or two apart, both sent by Thai registered mail.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I should have added, I haven't heard anything about the OP mentioned tax agreement negotiations between the U.S. and Thailand having reached any accord as yet.

So it's possible that Standard Chartered is doing this on their own, separate from a broader Thai banking industry move, at least at this point. Standard Chartered group seems to have a broader footprint in the U.S. than their regular Thai bank counterparts.

We opened our first office in the US in 1902 and now employ 940 staff.

We have offices in New York, California, Florida and Texas, and specialise in emerging markets including Asia, Africa, the Middle East and Latin America, offering Wholesale Banking services to US-based multi-national corporations and institutions.

https://www.sc.com/en/about-us/standard-chartered-worldwide/americas/usa.html

[hawker9000]

Yes, SC's "larger footprint", not only in Thailand, but globally (i.e., SC of Malaysia, SC of India, SC of ... - they seem to have affiliated banks everywhere, meaning bank accounts owned by US citizens everywhere), enough even to possibly make SC a "special case" maybe?)

I should have added, I haven't heard anything about the OP mentioned tax agreement negotiations between the U.S. and Thailand having reached any accord as yet.

So it's possible that Standard Chartered is doing this on their own, separate from a broader Thai banking industry move, at least at this point. Standard Chartered group seems to have a broader footprint in the U.S. than their regular Thai bank counterparts.

We opened our first office in the US in 1902 and now employ 940 staff.

We have offices in New York, California, Florida and Texas, and specialise in emerging markets including Asia, Africa, the Middle East and Latin America, offering Wholesale Banking services to US-based multi-national corporations and institutions.

https://www.sc.com/en/about-us/standard-chartered-worldwide/americas/usa.html

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Well, I made a visit today (Saturday) to the SC CentralWorld branch (with my wife in tow) to try to submit my FATCA-related papers to them, which I had filled out at home previously. And, as might have been expected given the way Thai banks operate, it didn't go very well.

When we went inside, there was a youngish guy sitting at one of the CSR desks (the only one sitting there other than the tellers at the counters). So, I asked my wife to show him the letter, and tell him in Thai that I was there to submit my documents about the letter to the bank, and ask whom I should deal with for submitting the documents. And, pretty quickly, even after the guy had looked at the SC letter in English, he apparently didn't have a clue what it was about or what to do with my papers. So naturally, his suggestion was he didn't want to accept the papers, and instead said I should bring them to the SC head office down in Sathorn, which I wasn't about to do. In addition to the fact that, on the papers themselves, it says to bring them to your home branch.

So at that point, realizing the guy was clueless, I asked my wife to tell the guy I wanted to speak with the manager on duty. And the reply was, this being Saturday, there was NO manager on duty, just the clueless bank drones. So the guy's 2nd suggestion was to come back Monday to Friday when his manager was around, the second suggestion also being one I wasn't inclined to follow. So, at that point, the clueless guy did something I wasn't expecting, and that's that he called his manager on his mobile phone and then proceeded to hand me the mobile phone to speak with his manager (out in the world of BKK on a Sat. somewhere).

Thus, I started anew with the manager, who seemed to be able to speak decent English. I started off slowly and clearly saying, I am an American. I have an account at your branch. I received a letter from your bank asking me to bring documents to your bank ... about tax thing between the U.S. and Thailand. Then it was the manager's turn, so he replied he understood, and then inexplicably launched into a long explanation with me about how this was all about money laundering, and making sure foreigners weren't giving money to Thai politicians and the protesters. And he droned on about that for awhile before I could finally stop him to say NO!!! That's not what this is about. This is about tax issues between the U.S. and Thailand, and making sure Americans here with Thai accounts pay their taxes to the U.S. And after some further back and forth, apparently, he finally understood.

So, we ended up with the resolution that I would leave my signed documents with the CSR drone there today, and then the drone would leave them for the manager to return on Monday. The manager suggested, and I agreed, for his drone to make a set of copies of my documents for me to keep, apart from the original signed set I was giving the bank today. So after having made the copies, the drone tried to give me back my original signed copies, and wanted to give the photocopies to his manager. To which I firmly replied, NO!!! You keep the originals for your manager, and I will take the photocopies home... Geeezzzz!!!!!

After that, we left the branch to do some other shopping around CentralWorld, and sure enough, about 15 minutes later, the manager was calling me on my mobile phone and asking me to return to the branch, which we did. The IRS form asks that you fill in your name the same way you fill in your U.S. tax returns, which I did, and signed it that way as well, which involves the use of only my middle initial, not spelling out my middle name. But my U.S. passport, I guess because of U.S. passport rules, has my middle name spelled out. And thus my bank book with SC is the same way, having my middle name spelled out. So, after we arrived the second time, the bank drone explained that they needed me to sign and write everything again on the documents, using my full middle name and not just my middle initial, which we did, and then left.

BTW, even though I brought a signed copy of my passport face page per the instructions on the bank letter, the bank drone at one point also kept insisting he needed to see my actual original passport, which isn't mentioned at all on the bank's letter, and which I didn't bring with me today. So when I asked him WHY he needed my original passport when he already had a signed copy of the facepage, he said something about needing to check the Immigration stamps in my passport, which is something that isn't mentioned at all in the bank's letter.

So I can't wait to see what fun and joy awaits me come Monday when the bank manager returns....

Edited March 1, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[isawasnake]

My take is if the tax law wasn't so ridiculous, they would not have so many evaders. There is stuff in there that is just so out of this world, and they just get away with it all. We are seeing this more and more nowadays..... institutions acting in ways so as to irrationally increase their profits, and then they try to enact unconstitutional legislation to counteract the fallout from their OWN actions. For example, the same scenario is happening in the movie industry imo.

Edited March 1, 2014 by isawasnake

[Jingthing]

Should there be separate threads for each major Thai bank for news, reports, updates and advice as this story develops. This might be a huge issue for many American expats here. For example Siam Commercial Bank American expat issues?

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