FLR & English Qualification Validity

[durhamboy]

Under the new rules a spouse applies for FLR 33 months after the granting of the initial spouse settlement visa.

However, the English Language Certificates obtained in Thailand from CPA (TOEIC) or Vantage (BULATS) are only valid for 2 years.

When applying for FLR the spouse has to demonstrate the same requirement of understanding English as at the initial stage.

The problem is that when applying for FLR the original English certificate is no longer valid.

The English tests were introduced in November 2010 and, at that time, I believe applicants were given initial visas of 2 years 3 months which means people should have been applying for FLR from February 2013 onwards with expired English qualifications.

Has anyone experienced problems from the Home Office in this regard? I wrote to them but got a very bland non-answer saying that the applicant must be aware of the rules without saying what the rules are!

By the way, I also started a Topic on this about a year or so ago. No one had a definitive answer then and, as time has moved on, there must now be actual FLR applications with this potential problem so I have restarted it.

Many thanks.

Edited to include updated information from Correspondence Unit:

Thank you for your email correspondence of 30 December regarding the English language requirements for leave to remain and settlement applications.

I am sorry about the conflicting and incorrect information you have received regarding the expiry of English language tests. Our email of 16 December was incorrect. I can confirm that an expired A1 English language certificate can be provided for further leave to remain (LTR) in the UK as a spouse but not for LTR under the points based system.

An expired A1 or B1 certificate can also be provided for settlement and naturalisation applications. All certificates must be originals and issued by a valid provider as given on our list of providers which is subject to change.

Edited January 3, 2014 by theoldgit
Edited to add updated information

[Kevin1908]

How bizarre that an English test certificate has a vadility. I don't have to take my Maths GCE every 2 years to prove that I can do maths or resit a driving test to say I can still drive a car. I suppose somebody has to make money somehow.

I do agree though in safety critical environments that re-testing is a good idea.

[7by7]

Firstly, you don't apply for FLR 33 months after receiving the initial visa. The initial visa is valid for 33 months, but you can apply for FLR anytime between 30 months after first arriving in the UK with it and it's expiry date.

As for your question, it does seem daft that some test providers place an expiry date on their pass certificates; the only possible explanation I can think of is the theory that if you don't use it, you lose it. Which, of course, is unlikely to apply to most settlement applicants.

Unfortunately, though, the government have yet to announce what, if anything, they are going to do about it.

As the new rules came into force on 9th July 2012, it will be December 2014 at the earliest before anyone has to make an FLR application under them. Hopefully the government will have sorted this out by then.

But don't be surprised if they simply say "Tough, you'll have to take the test again."

If this is the case, then as A1 is the minimum standard for FLR and as B1 is required for ILR then aim for B1 with a test provider who doesn't have an expiry date on their certificates; this can then be used for ILR as well.

On a side issue, Kevin; driving is a safety critical environment! I do think that drivers should have to resit their driving test on a regular basis. Most 'experienced' drivers would fail if they were asked to take the test again without any prior tuition!

Edited November 14, 2013 by 7by7

[durhamboy]

Thanks 7by7.

Are you sure that it will be December 2014 before this issue is tested?

As I said in my OP the English test was introduced in November 2010 and I think successful applicants after that date were given 2 years and 3 months initial visas (this being increased to 2 years and 9 months under the new rules for applicants after July 2012).

So, for example, a spouse that passed the English test in December 2010 and, say, got the visa in February 2011, with a 2 year 3 month validity, would be applying for FLR in May of this year with an out-of-date English certificate.

If that is correct then some people may have already encountered this problem. Seeing as no one has posted any problems on the forum then perhaps it is a complete non-issue and the certificates are being accepted. Btw, you may remember that a few people posted previously about problems from the Home Office because the test centre they got their original English certificate from was no longer accredited even though they were accredited when they passed their test! I'm not sue of the outcome of that one.

Your further thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[7by7]

Under the old rules prior to 9th July 2012 the initial visa was valid for 27 months, with 24 months residency required for ILR (not FLR)

So in your example, the spouse would be applying for ILR, not FLR

An A1 pass in speaking and listening did not meet the language requirement for ILR under the old language rules prior to 28th October this year, nor does it under the new rules.

So for an ILR application it is irrelevant whether or not the A1 pass is still valid. The applicant needs to have met the higher qualification; which is now an LitUK test pass and B1 or better in English speaking or listening; regardless of when their initial visa was issued.

Those who enter as fiancés or proposed civil partners do have to make an FLR application after the marriage/civil partnership. But as this must be within 6 months of their entry, the A1 pass would still be valid.

As the new family migration rules came into effect for applications made on or after 9th July 2012, it will be at least 30 months from that date before anyone has to apply for FLR under them (except fiancés and proposed civil partners, but see above). My original, quick, calculation was wrong, though; 30 months from 9th July 2012 is not 9th December 2014, it's 9th January 2015 (I think!); although people can submit their application 28 days before.

It will probably be later than this, anyway. People who submitted their visa application before 9th July 2012 but didn't receive their visa until after that date come under the old rules, not the new.

Hope that's clear.

But it is something the government do not appear to have considered.

[durhamboy]

Many thanks 7by7 that it very clear. I didn't realise that they went straight to ILR which, as you say, has different criteria for English.

So it will be early 2015 before we know if there are any problems with this. This is very frustrating as it would be good to know now if my wife needs to do another test. I have asked around a lot including colleges teaching ESOL and the Home Office but no one knows.

I suppose the only thing I can do right now is ask Kevin at Vantage in Bangkok the reason why BULATS only has a 2 year validity.

Really looking at it logically it shouldn't be a problem. The applicant passes the test and goes to the UK where they speak English every day for more than 2 years so their English ability is much better than when they passed the test! Unfortunately the Home Office doesn't think logically does it?

Cheers.

[7by7]

Joined up thinking is not something they're good at, true.

A1 is the minimum level required for FLR; anything better is, of course, acceptable.

So, as your wife will need B1 for her ILR and as this is also acceptable for FLR, why not get her on a course so she can take that in time for her FLR application? Making sure first that the course will give her a certificate which will still be valid for her ILR one.

I think it probably will be, and that this expiry problem is only for tests taken outside the UK, not ones taken in the UK.

[Jay Sata]

As the new rules came into force on 9th July 2012, it will be December 2014 at the earliest before anyone has to make an FLR application under them. Hopefully the government will have sorted this out by then.

But don't be surprised if they simply say "Tough, you'll have to take the test again."

What's wrong with them asking to take the test again. If it expires they will have no problems passing again.?

[MaprangHolmes]

As the new rules came into force on 9th July 2012, it will be December 2014 at the earliest before anyone has to make an FLR application under them. Hopefully the government will have sorted this out by then.

But don't be surprised if they simply say "Tough, you'll have to take the test again."

What's wrong with them asking to take the test again. If it expires they will have no problems passing again.?

Having an exam test certificate that has a validity of 2 years does seem a bit stupid, would people want to do a degree and then after 2 years have to resit all of there exams? of course they wouldn't and it would be totally impractical to expect anyone to do such a thing. So why after demonstrating that your English is at a certain level, should you be expected to do the same exam again?

[7by7]

I can see the logic if the candidate has taken the test outside the UK and then never entered the UK.

A1 is a very low standard, and if someone passes at A1 and then doesn't use their English they could easily lose it.

But once the person has entered the UK and, presumably, is using their English everyday, the pass should remain valid for their FLR application.

Especially as they will need to achieve the higher, B1 qualification for their ILR.

As said, it is obvious that the government and their advisors did not consider the validity of certificates issued outside the UK when they changed the family settlement rules!

[durhamboy]

Thanks for your replies.

Sorry Jay Santa but there is a lot that is wrong about asking them to retake a test that has already been passed. If they are here using English every day for 2 years then what would be the point? The only point would be where they never came to the UK in the first place as 7by7 said. Actually I suspect that the non-use of the qualification is the reason for the 2 year validity but I have yet to hear back from BULATS.

In any case my OP isn't about the rationale for re-takes it's about the rules concerning FLR and my frustration in finding out what they are. I suspect as 7by7 said that the government simply didn't think of it in their haste to introduce new rules.

7by7 I take your point about going for a B1 qualification now and that would suffice for FLR. However a couple of points about that :-

1. I'm told that she would get a substantial reduction in the course fee if she does it after she has been here 3 years.

2. She is having some tuition at the moment and her English is definitely improving. However B1 is a lot higher standard than A1 and she will be better prepared to reach B1 standard after she has been here a few years i.e. after applying for FLR.

One thing that did occur to me - you said that under the old rules the applicant can apply for ILR after just over 2 years without applying for FLR if they reach the B1 English standard. However, I don't think that everyone will reach that standard and, if so, then there must be some people who are applying for FLR right now with out-of -date certificates. What do you think?

Thanks

[7by7]

B1 is a higher standard than A1, true.

It is the equivalent of ESOL entry level 3, which is the minimum standard required to be able to pass the LitUK test.

Of course, prior to 28th October ILR applicants could have satisfied the language requirement for ILR by progressing one level on an ESOL with citizenship course, e.g. from entry level 1 to entry level 2. In which case their standard would have been below entry level 3 and also B1.

Given the fact that changes to the requirements receive little or no publicity (not the Home Office's fault; they issue press releases but the media don't consider it news so don't publicise them) I am sure that there are quite a few people about to apply for ILR who will find that their present English qualification no longer meets the requirement!

Which, as you say, means they'll have to make an FLR application to cover them until they can meet the new requirement.

As to whether or not an expired A1 certificate will be ok for that FLR application, I guess we'll have to watch this and other forums for someone actually in that position to post their experience.

[7by7]

As this question has arisen in another topic, I've emailed the Home Office to ask.

I'll post their reply once received.

[TheGoose]

Where does it say that tests done via the company Vantage are only valid for 2 years ?

I just looked out my wife's certicates, she has 3 BULATS ones - Speaking, Writing & a Reading and Listening - plus a University of Cambridge certificate "Cambridge ESOL entry level certificate in ESOL International (Entry 1) (BULATS)" for her level A1. There is nowhere on any of these or the accompanying notes that says they are only valid for 2 years. The Cambridge certificate has an examination date & date of issue, that's all.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

[7by7]

As the OP says, pass certificates issued by some providers do have expiry dates.

This is also confirmed by the list of UKBA approved test providers which shows that whilst most test have no expiry, some, including BULATS and TOIEC, are only valid for 2 years.

[7by7]

As this question has arisen in another topic, I've emailed the Home Office to ask.

I'll post their reply once received.

Not unexpected, their reply was no use at all; simply referring me to various parts of their guidance; none of which answer the actual question.

I feel a letter to my MP coming on.

[7by7]

Had a reply from my MP, and it's not good news.

Dear Mr X,

I have received the following message from the UK Border Agency:

"Thank you for your email correspondence of 3 December on behalf of Mr X about the expiry of the BULATS English language A1 Certificate.

The A1 pass from BULATS expires after two years and a further test must be taken in order to apply for further leave to remain. This is explained on our website at the following link; http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/applicationforms/new-approved-english-tests.pdf"

The link explains nothing as it's just the list of approved providers.

[7by7]

To add to the above, if you do have an A1 certificate which expires before you can apply for FLR then when taking the speaking and listening test again, do so with a provider whose certificates don't expire and also aim for B1.

Then this second certificate can be used again for ILR.

[durhamboy]

Thanks 7 by 7 - this is the first time I've seen a definitive answer about this issue. However, I still get the feeling that UKBA are making this up as they go along. I went on the BULATS website recently and I quote from it as follows :-

www.bulats.org

"BULATS test scores are valid for as long as a candidate's ability remains the same. However, proficiency in English language can improve or decline over time. Therefore, it is advisable for organisations to seek further indicators of a candidate's language ability or request that the candidate retake the test if the BULATS test was taken more than two years previously."

I think there is a logic to BULATS having an expiry date. The tests are taken outside the UK and a person could achieve A1 level and then remain in their country, not use the qualification and then apply to go to the UK after more than 2 years. In such a case their English is likely to decline.

However for those applying for FLR they will have been in the UK for more than 2 years and during that time will have been using English every day! Therefore by any stretch of the imagination it is virtually impossible for their English to have declined (unless they had some sort of mental illness).

It is correct what The Goose has posted that the expiry details do not appear on the certificate. That seems a little unprofessional of BULATS who are guaranteeing a standard of English. However, the date of the certificate is given and therefore a zealous UKBA official can work out that a test has expired when looking at an FLR application. Then the proverbial will hit the fan but we are unlikely to see this scenario play out until December 2014.

My own personal thoughts are that if the UKBA were to deny an FLR on this basis then an appeal should be successful. If not then could we get a situation where families are broken up simple because a spouse (and possibly parent) passed an English test 2 1/2 years ago, spoke English everyday but didn't realise that it had expired?

[Jay Sata]

Thanks for your replies.

Sorry Jay Santa but there is a lot that is wrong about asking them to retake a test that has already been passed. If they are here using English every day for 2 years then what would be the point? The only point would be where they never came to the UK in the first place as 7by7 said. Actually I suspect that the non-use of the qualification is the reason for the 2 year validity but I have yet to hear back from BULATS.

You're just looking at things from a Thai partner perspective. There are many communities in the UK where English would never be used again once the spouse is here. Integration is important and if a person can pass once they can pass again.

[SirPaul]

I raised the issue of testing and expiry dates back in October 2013. Living in Pattaya, my Thai wife has no way to study with a view to passing the B1 qualification so it can be used where necessary in the UK. I was shocked at all this, whatever the justification. At the time it may have seemed odd that I wanted her to study to a higher level than required, but as time goes by I suspect such demands will begin to be made by others.

Now a month and a bit later, and the same problems are resurfacing.

I suspect over the next couple of years as more people require test certificates, the noise about the 2 year expiry date will get louder. A wrong has been done, but nothing is being done to correct it.

In time I suspect things will be put right, but at the moment if you are an early adopter of current legislation then you have to suffer that litlle bit more, this is the way it is whether we like it or not.

[Jay Sata]

I raised the issue of testing and expiry dates back in October 2013. Living in Pattaya, my Thai wife has no way to study with a view to passing the B1 qualification so it can be used where necessary in the UK. I was shocked at all this, whatever the justification. At the time it may have seemed odd that I wanted her to study to a higher level than required, but as time goes by I suspect such demands will begin to be made by others.

Now a month and a bit later, and the same problems are resurfacing.

I suspect over the next couple of years as more people require test certificates, the noise about the 2 year expiry date will get louder. A wrong has been done, but nothing is being done to correct it.

In time I suspect things will be put right, but at the moment if you are an early adopter of current legislation then you have to suffer that little bit more, this is the way it is whether we like it or not.

The requirements are in place to make sure partners integrate in to UK society. In the past many migrants have entered the UK with no English ability and remained in closed communities where only their native language is spoken.

These requirements are aimed at everyone and not just those of us with a Thai spouse.

[7by7]

Sir Paul, I find it odd that you say there is no where in Pattaya for your wife to study English. A quick Google shows that there are many English schools there.

Whilst none of them offer tests from an approved provider, at least she can study there before taking the test with an approved provider in Bangkok.

Sata, this is a Thai based forum, in case you hadn't noticed. So it is not surprising that people look at things from a Thai perspective.

But, we all know, you are banging you usual drum about people from the sub continent or whose parents or grand parents came from there; who you seem to hate with a passion. Maybe you should get and about more and meet some of them; you'll find that, like Thais, they may speak to each other in their own language, they are also perfectly capable of communicating in English.

This is an important subject; kindly take your ignorant prejudices elsewhere.

[Jay Sata]

You misunderstand my post and point.

The immigrations rules are of a general nature and drafted to achieve government policy.

The English language tests are part of the scheme. If someone can pass the test once they can pass it again.

What's the problem with that?

There are no sidebars to treat people from some countries more favourably than others.

You seem to suggest those of us with Thai partners are in some sort of special category?

Edited December 18, 2013 by Jay Sata

[7by7]

Not at all.

I do fail to see why, though, having satisfied the A1 requirement for the initial visa one should have to take the test again to satisfy it for FLR.

Especially when this requirement only applies to tests from certain providers.

Tests taken with the majority of providers don't have this problem as they don't expire.

Unfortunately, none of these providers seem to be operating in Thailand.

[durhamboy]

Jay Sata - if your stance had any plausibility then ALL the English tests would have a 2 year validity. You seem to have no appreciation of the kinds of practical difficulties this issue is causing. Firstly, the tests are not specifically designed for spouses/partners coming to the UK. As I said before, the UKBA have "piggy-backed" on tests already in existence and designed for a multitude of purposes e.g. multinational companies training their staff in English. My wife failed her first test in Thailand because she wasn't "miked up" properly. There were 40 other people taking the test at the same time in the same room all "jabbering" away (off-putting enough in itself) and for the first 10 minutes of the test she hadn't realised that the mike had slipped off. She missed the passmark by just 5%.

You also seem to pay no heed to the logistical difficulties in finding test centres, the cost of further tests and the worry that maybe an FLR application from otherwise bona fide applicants will be refused.

Instead you sit there up on your high horse pontificating and saying "What's wrong with them taking another test?" A test that they have already passed - what message does that give to them about our country? If you lived in another country would you like to have to take and pass the local language exam twice?

[7by7]

Whilst broadly in agreement with the above, durhamboy, there are tests which are more suited to the purpose of a spouse moving to the UK.

Unfortunately, all the test providers in Thailand have opted for BULATS or other business orientated tests; no doubt for their own commercial reasons.

To be fair to UKV&I (formally UKBA) it is not their fault if no one in Thailand wants to offer a more suitable test and/or one where a pass does not expire.

[durhamboy]

Had a reply from my MP, and it's not good news.

Dear Mr X,

I have received the following message from the UK Border Agency:

"Thank you for your email correspondence of 3 December on behalf of Mr X about the expiry of the BULATS English language A1 Certificate.

The A1 pass from BULATS expires after two years and a further test must be taken in order to apply for further leave to remain. This is explained on our website at the following link; http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/applicationforms/new-approved-english-tests.pdf"

The link explains nothing as it's just the list of approved providers.

7 by 7 - is it possible to get the name of the UKBA official who signed this letter. I would like to try and get some further info from them in particular their rationale for this.

What surprises me is that there must be people who have already been applying for FLR whose tests have expired. This comes about because, as we discussed previously, some people will not have attained B1 English standard even though they have been here for 2 years and therefore cannot get ILR so have to apply for FLR in the meantime.

The test was introduced on 29th. November 2010 and I believe that at that time they could apply for ILR after 2 years. I think the initial visa was for 2 years and 3 months. So there must be some people who applied for FLR in early 2013. What happened to them? I can't find a single example (either here or elsewhere in a Google Search) of anyone being refused FLR for an expired English Test certificate. This leads me to think that UKBA are making this up as they go along. Have people slipped through the net? More worryingly, have we unwittingly opened up a can of worms here?

[7by7]

It does, of course, depend on in which country those applying for FLR originally took their A1 test. In many countries, tests from other providers whose passes don't expire are available.

To be frank, I think that the number of people so far who have had to apply for FLR because they have not met the language requirement, or one of the others, for ILR is likely to be very small.

Remember that prior to 28th October 2013 B1 in speaking and listening was not required and an ESOL with citizenship course was an acceptable alternative to the LitUK test.

I do have the name of the official who responded to my MP, but am reluctant to post it on an open forum. I'll PM it to you.

[7by7]

UKBA English Tests.pdf

TonyK has sent me the attached document, and I reproduce it here with his permission.

It basically says that an expired B1 pass can be used for both ILR and naturalisation applications.

Which begs the question; why can't an expired A1 pass be used for an FLR application?

A question I've asked my MP.

Edited December 19, 2013 by 7by7