Are you an Atheist/Believer?

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy.

If you mean "belgian beer", I agree.

If you mean Heineken, I would rather think god hates us.

The reference was to English real ale. Only heathen drink Heineken.

[Neeranam]

One of my spiritual experiences came when sitting in a car with this amazing 98 year old yogi. It was 5 am one morning and we were going from Oxford to London. She suggested we meditate and I felt a total separation from my physical body and such peace, and bliss. Something I will never forget.

[greytown]

Sure, Christ says love your enemies.....

How about "an eye for an eye"?

How about "slave, obey your master"?

How about destroying Pataya, oeps, sorry I meant Sodoma and Gomorra?

As a True Believer, you are surely familiar with those quotes?

Christ says turn the other cheek, which obviously is in contradiction to what is in the old testament. We don't have to look far to find contradictions in the Bible, which causes many to give up on it and dismiss the whole thing as nonsense.

I do not profess to be a true believer. As a matter of fact my opinion on these things has changed and shifted quite a lot over the years. However I am certainly willing to listen and re examine what I might have dismissed in the past.

[notmyself]

Take therefore no thought for the morrow

This passage refers to God providing for those who have (true) faith, therefore they need not worry.

Are the millions of faithful who starve to death in Africa not 'true' Christians? Are they not true believers?

Apparently not. True faith is a rare thing. I would reckon very few church goers actually have true faith. Certainly hypocrite Christians abound.

As I thought, nothing less that a no true Scotsman argument.

The use of the term was advanced by British philosopher Antony Flew:

Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again". Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing". The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again; and, this time, finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsman would do such a thing".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Never mind every single sect be that Christian or otherwise, every single believer believes that they have it right.

[sirineou]

I'm always amazed to see atheist bash theist for having faith (believing something without reason) in God, but then claiming, many times in the very

same sentence, that there are Absolutely no Gods.

Both statements (there is a God. There aren't any Gods.) have the burden of proof, and yet both are happily stated without anyone meeting it.

The difference is that theists, at least most that I know, don't pretend to be skeptical and rational while spewing dogmatic believes as if it was truth.

What atheist claimed that there is absolutely no God? can you name a few?

where millions of christians will tel you with absolute certainty that there is a God

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

I'm always amazed to see atheist bash theist for having faith (believing something without reason) in God, but then claiming, many times in the very

same sentence, that there are Absolutely no Gods.

Both statements (there is a God. There aren't any Gods.) have the burden of proof, and yet both are happily stated without anyone meeting it.

The difference is that theists, at least most that I know, don't pretend to be skeptical and rational while spewing dogmatic believes as if it was truth.

What atheist claimed that there is absolutely no God? can you name a few?

where millions of christians will tel you with absolute certainty that there is a God

Mark Twain for one, me for another and how many Christians are absolutely certain,all the time, of their belief in a God ?

Edited January 8, 2014 by Rajab Al Zarahni

[notmyself]

I'm always amazed to see atheist bash theist for having faith (believing something without reason) in God, but then claiming, many times in the very

same sentence, that there are Absolutely no Gods.

Both statements (there is a God. There aren't any Gods.) have the burden of proof, and yet both are happily stated without anyone meeting it.

The difference is that theists, at least most that I know, don't pretend to be skeptical and rational while spewing dogmatic believes as if it was truth.

What atheist claimed that there is absolutely no God? can you name a few?

where millions of christians will tel you with absolute certainty that there is a God

Some members have posted that there is no god as a certainty and I know a few people personally who also say such a thing. There are some but not many. Most simply reject the claim made by theists (who have the burden of proof) and that is it.

[greytown]

One of my spiritual experiences came when sitting in a car with this amazing 98 year old yogi. It was 5 am one morning and we were going from Oxford to London. She suggested we meditate and I felt a total separation from my physical body and such peace, and bliss. Something I will never forget.

"Defamation of religion, sin and corruption have increased so much". That is certainly true. The Catholic church is a corrupt and bankrupt institution. When religion becomes corrupt, people turn away from it. But what do they turn to? The absence of moral and spiritual law leaves the field wide open for evil to fester and take over. Without the guiding light of spiritual law, all is darkness.

[thailiketoo]

• Christianity is the largest faith with 2.2 billion adherents or 31.5 per cent of the world's population
• There are about 1.6 billion Muslims around the world - or 23 per cent of the global population

• People with no religious affiliation now make up the third-largest global group in a new study of the world's faiths - coming after Christians and Muslims but just before Hindus.

  Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2250096/You-wouldnt-believe-atheism-worlds-biggest-faith-Christianity-Islam.html#ixzz2pp19jaWd

• The guys who get paid to think (scientists) around 72% do and don't believe in a personal God.

[StreetCowboy]

I'm always amazed to see atheist bash theist for having faith (believing something without reason) in God, but then claiming, many times in the very

same sentence, that there are Absolutely no Gods.

Both statements (there is a God. There aren't any Gods.) have the burden of proof, and yet both are happily stated without anyone meeting it.

The difference is that theists, at least most that I know, don't pretend to be skeptical and rational while spewing dogmatic believes as if it was truth.

What atheist claimed that there is absolutely no God? can you name a few?

where millions of christians will tel you with absolute certainty that there is a God

Some members have posted that there is no god as a certainty and I know a few people personally who also say such a thing. There are some but not many. Most simply reject the claim made by theists (who have the burden of proof) and that is it.

Why do theists have a burden of proof?

Surely it would be prudent to behave as if there was a God, until you could be certain that there was not, and that seems like a harder thing to prove than the converse.

SC

[thailiketoo]

"Defamation of religion, sin and corruption have increased so much". That is certainly true. The Catholic church is a corrupt and bankrupt institution. When religion becomes corrupt, people turn away from it. But what do they turn to? The absence of moral and spiritual law leaves the field wide open for evil to fester and take over. Without the guiding light of spiritual law, all is darkness.

You wrote, "When religion becomes corrupt, people turn away from it. But what do they turn to?" Well that's a no brainer. They come to Thailand of course.

[notmyself]

Why do theists have a burden of proof?

Surely it would be prudent to behave as if there was a God, until you could be certain that there was not, and that seems like a harder thing to prove than the converse.

SC

Hey SC

Theism is a claim, an assertion that an intervening god exists. Atheism is a rejection of said claim/ assertion. and not a claim that a god does not exist. I say I saw a 200' tall pink elephant singing a song in Spanish run past my window (theism) and you say you don't believe me (atheism). Do you have to prove one does not exist?

[StreetCowboy]

Why do theists have a burden of proof?

Surely it would be prudent to behave as if there was a God, until you could be certain that there was not, and that seems like a harder thing to prove than the converse.

SC

Hey SC

Theism is a claim, an assertion that an intervening god exists. Atheism is a rejection of said claim/ assertion. and not a claim that a god does not exist. I say I saw a 200' tall pink elephant singing a song in Spanish run past my window (theism) and you say you don't believe me (atheism). Do you have to prove one does not exist?

I thought atheism was a claim that there was no God. A pretty comprehensive claim, and one that would require a lot of stone-turning to verify His absence.

If you're just saying you don't know, you're a bit sceptical, and maybe you're yet to be convinced, well, we all have our doubts. Particularly on the benefits of independence. Unlike the latter, though, faith is not a democratic process, and we don't need to follow the majority. There's no referendum on whether there is or is not a God. You believe whatever you want, despite the difficulties of proving it, and others what they believe, despite the absence of evidence.

SC

[thailiketoo]

Hey SC

Theism is a claim, an assertion that an intervening god exists. Atheism is a rejection of said claim/ assertion. and not a claim that a god does not exist. I say I saw a 200' tall pink elephant singing a song in Spanish run past my window (theism) and you say you don't believe me (atheism). Do you have to prove one does not exist?

I thought atheism was a claim that there was no God. A pretty comprehensive claim, and one that would require a lot of stone-turning to verify His absence.

If you're just saying you don't know, you're a bit sceptical, and maybe you're yet to be convinced, well, we all have our doubts. Particularly on the benefits of independence. Unlike the latter, though, faith is not a democratic process, and we don't need to follow the majority. There's no referendum on whether there is or is not a God. You believe whatever you want, despite the difficulties of proving it, and others what they believe, despite the absence of evidence.

SC

Are you talking about asking stones to turn over if there is not a God thing? Cause if you are you are correct and anyone can verify it. Pick 12 stones lay them in a straight line and ask in a clear voice, "If there is not a God turn over."

[notmyself]

I thought atheism was a claim that there was no God. A pretty comprehensive claim, and one that would require a lot of stone-turning to verify His absence.

It's not mate and that would be another question anyway.

Guilty equates to theism.

Not guilty equated to atheism.

Innocent would equate to claiming there is no god so another question entirely.

I ask your profession and you say carpenter. You ask mine and I say not a carpenter (acarpenter). I'm not claiming to have any profession.

[Loptr]

E=M^2C^4+P^2C^2

Where did this come from? Has it been verified? Is this something to do with the possibility of neutrinos traveling faster than light? And finally what is P?

Seems a shame if such a simple eloquent equation such as E=MC2 is disproven.

Not just yet

The faster than light traveling neutrino was disproven, E=MC2 remains intact

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17560379

But not for Photons. Moving from particle theory to wave theory removes the mathematical limitations for faster than light speeds.

http://www.livescience.com/38533-photons-may-emit-faster-than-light-particles.html

[tw25rw]

I think most so called atheists don't know the real meaning of the word. They are just anti-religion, in particular Christianity.

I recently read a classic book - A variety of spiritual Experience by William James, where James says that Atheism is caused by a dysfunction of the liver!

The fervor with which some atheists attack Christianity, he noted, is religious in nature.

Rather than see it as an attack, see it as rebellion. Rebellion against an oppressive and controlling institution that maintains power through brainwashing and lies.

[notmyself]

If you're just saying you don't know, you're a bit sceptical, and maybe you're yet to be convinced, well, we all have our doubts.

That would be agnosticism which is a knowledge claim, theism and atheism is of a belief claim (atheism is I don't believe you). Hence agnostic atheist.

[tw25rw]

I'm always amazed to see atheist bash theist for having faith (believing something without reason) in God, but then claiming, many times in the very

same sentence, that there are Absolutely no Gods.

Both statements (there is a God. There aren't any Gods.) have the burden of proof, and yet both are happily stated without anyone meeting it.

The difference is that theists, at least most that I know, don't pretend to be skeptical and rational while spewing dogmatic believes as if it was truth.

What atheist claimed that there is absolutely no God? can you name a few?

where millions of christians will tel you with absolute certainty that there is a God

Some members have posted that there is no god as a certainty and I know a few people personally who also say such a thing. There are some but not many. Most simply reject the claim made by theists (who have the burden of proof) and that is it.

Why do theists have a burden of proof?

Surely it would be prudent to behave as if there was a God, until you could be certain that there was not, and that seems like a harder thing to prove than the converse.

SC

Because until a god manifests itself rather than expecting us to believe ancient scriptures written by people who knew less about the world than a modern schoolkid, there is more reason to disbelieve than to believe.

Behaving as if there was doesn't mean much if you don't really believe in it.

[sirineou]

What atheist claimed that there is absolutely no God? can you name a few?

where millions of christians will tel you with absolute certainty that there is a God

Mark Twain for one, me for another and how many Christians are absolutely certain,all the time, of their belief in a God ?

If you are an Atheist and claim there is no God with absolute certainty, you need to produce your evidence,

Remember it is imposible to prove a negative.

As for Mark Twain I quote:

"I am plenty safe enough in his hands; I am not in any danger from that kind of a Diety. The one that I want to keep out of the reach of, is the caricature of him which one finds in the Bible. We (that one and I) could never respect each other, never get along together. I have met his superior a hundred times-- in fact I amount to that myself.

- Letter to Olivia Clemens, 17 July 1889"

[sirineou]

Some members have posted that there is no god as a certainty and I know a few people personally who also say such a thing. There are some but not many. Most simply reject the claim made by theists (who have the burden of proof) and that is it.

Sorry Notmyself, but you are not your self today

both of you and them would be wrong

Firstly , as I have mentioned several times, and no one seems to get it, YOU CAN NOT PROVE A NEGATIVE

Second, it is not as that claim there is a God,it is you,

if you make such a claim, you need to provide evidence that support your claim.

or should we take you at your word???

All an atheist can do is say that based on the available evidence I don't think there is a God

Notice I said "available evidence" maybe at some future time other evidence will emerge that supports or even proves your claim

at which time we will say, Oh heck , we were wrong,sorry big guy, my bad..

But for now untill you come up with better stuff than burning bushes,and second hand accounts of miracles, please don't get mad if I remain sceptical,

it is not my fault, it is your fault for providing such faulty evidence.

Edited January 8, 2014 by sirineou

[sustento]

Thanks :-) shortly after Rastafarianism was accepted as a religion it was the turn of Druidism ... now that's my type of religion... dancing naked around Stonehenge 5,000 years before Jehovah was born :-)

It's a bit nippy round the nads at winter solstice though

[notmyself]

Some members have posted that there is no god as a certainty and I know a few people personally who also say such a thing. There are some but not many. Most simply reject the claim made by theists (who have the burden of proof) and that is it.

Sorry Notmyself, but you are not your self today:lol:

both of you and them would be wrong

Firstly , as I have mentioned several times, and no one seems to get it, YOU CAN NOT PROVE A NEGATIVE

Second, it is not as that claim there is a God,it is you,

if you make such a claim, you need to provide evidence that support your claim.

or should we take you at your word???

All an atheist can do is say that based on the available evidence I don't think there is a God

Notice I said "available evidence" maybe at some future time other evidence will emerge that supports or even proves your claim

at which time we will say, Oh heck , we were wrong,sorry big guy, my bad..

But for now untill you come up with better stuff than burning bushes,and second hand accounts of miracles, please don't get mad if I remain sceptical,

it is not my fault, it is your fault for providing such faulty evidence.

Hi

Had you taken the time to read the thread you would have seen that I am an atheist and agree with what you are saying. I was merely pointing out to a fellow member that some atheists go further to say that there is certainly not a god which in itself is a claim.

I've spent over 30 years listening to supposed reasons to believe such as a burning bush and none, not one, has stood up to scrutiny. I therefore reject the claims that a god exists on the grounds that there is no reason to believe it does. Should a reason turn up in the future then of cause I will change my mind but until such time I will remain an atheist on account of myself rejecting theistic claims.

[LaraC]

6

dont need religion to guide me about what is right or wrong, i already know well enough.
dont need religion to comfort me on my deathbed, i feel like ive lived 10 lives already and im not even halfway there yet.
I dont impinge my (non) beliefs on others, nor do i disrespect others beliefs... i do know a heck of a lot of damning "religious" folks out there however, and thats honestly pretty hard to stomach.

[sirineou]

Some members have posted that there is no god as a certainty and I know a few people personally who also say such a thing. There are some but not many. Most simply reject the claim made by theists (who have the burden of proof) and that is it.

Sorry Notmyself, but you are not your self today:lol:

both of you and them would be wrong

Firstly , as I have mentioned several times, and no one seems to get it, YOU CAN NOT PROVE A NEGATIVE

Second, it is not as that claim there is a God,it is you,

if you make such a claim, you need to provide evidence that support your claim.

or should we take you at your word???

All an atheist can do is say that based on the available evidence I don't think there is a God

Notice I said "available evidence" maybe at some future time other evidence will emerge that supports or even proves your claim

at which time we will say, Oh heck , we were wrong,sorry big guy, my bad..

But for now untill you come up with better stuff than burning bushes,and second hand accounts of miracles, please don't get mad if I remain sceptical,

it is not my fault, it is your fault for providing such faulty evidence.

Hi

Had you taken the time to read the thread you would have seen that I am an atheist and agree with what you are saying. I was merely pointing out to a fellow member that some atheists go further to say that there is certainly not a god which in itself is a claim.

I've spent over 30 years listening to supposed reasons to believe such as a burning bush and none, not one, has stood up to scrutiny. I therefore reject the claims that a god exists on the grounds that there is no reason to believe it does. Should a reason turn up in the future then of cause I will change my mind but until such time I will remain an atheist on account of myself rejecting theistic claims.

Sorry Funky Chicken, don't get your feathers in a ruffle

with 22 pages of mostly inane dribble , please don't get mad at me for not reading all of them,

I check in from time to time, read some responses,and tosh in some incendiary bombs to of my own.

I apologise for having misread your position

I really don't care what any one believes, I just dont like it when they try to force their beliefs on me and my family.

As far as I know, no atheist has strapped a bomb to his chest and blew him self and others up while yelling "THE EVIDENCE IS INSUFFICIENT"

[wym]

Rather than see it as an attack, see it as rebellion. Rebellion against an oppressive and controlling institution that maintains power through brainwashing and lies.

I have no idea why so many people see this as black and white, either you're an atheist or you go along with some organized religion.

I hate the money/power elite-control-of-the-masses aspect of the latter as much as any atheist.

However to me the solution to many of the world's problems is for people to find true spirituality in their heart and put it into practice in their day to day lives without adhering to any dogma or authority.

Mainstream secular humanist/scientism and worship of money and consumerism seems to be causing just as many problems as any "religion", and just wiping your hands and saying well the world's going to hell in a handbasket nothing to be done, look out for me and mine screw the rest of you, doesn't seem to offer much to a hurting world does it.

Anyone who doesn't see evidence of a higher power in their own heart and life just isn't looking IMO, in fact must be actively ignoring a lot of evidence right in front of their nose.

But none so blind as those who will not see. . .

[notmyself]

Sorry Funky Chicken, don't get your feathers in a ruffle

with 22 pages of mostly inane dribble , please don't get mad at me for not reading all of them

No problem.

There have actually been a number of posts well worth reading from both sides as it were. A member mentioned on the first page (I think) that the thread was going degenerate into a ****storm but for the most part it has been very civil. Kudos to contributing members.

[notmyself]

I have no idea why so many people see this as black and white, either you're an atheist or you go along with some organized religion.

It is a binary question. There either is an intervening god or there is not. The topic is "Are you an Atheist/Believer?" and not what flavour of believer.

I hate the money/power elite-control-of-the-masses aspect of the latter as much as any atheist.

I have met atheists over the years who wish it were true but cannot bring themselves to believe it because they have no reason to do so. In my personal opinion I think this is rather weird but there are some.

Anyone who doesn't see evidence of a higher power in their own heart and life just isn't looking IMO, in fact must be actively ignoring a lot of evidence right in front of their nose.

Sounds interesting, such as? (Please don't say look at the trees)

Edited January 8, 2014 by notmyself

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

What atheist claimed that there is absolutely no God? can you name a few?

where millions of christians will tel you with absolute certainty that there is a God

Mark Twain for one, me for another and how many Christians are absolutely certain,all the time, of their belief in a God ?

If you are an Atheist and claim there is no God with absolute certainty, you need to produce your evidence,

Remember it is imposible to prove a negative.

As for Mark Twain I quote:

"I am plenty safe enough in his hands; I am not in any danger from that kind of a Diety. The one that I want to keep out of the reach of, is the caricature of him which one finds in the Bible. We (that one and I) could never respect each other, never get along together. I have met his superior a hundred times-- in fact I amount to that myself.

- Letter to Olivia Clemens, 17 July 1889"

Given that there is no factual or objective basis for a belief in God then no evidence is necessary to refute it as there is nothing to refute. The selected Mark Twain quote is hardly convincing in seeking to demonstrate that he wasn't an atheist.

What about this one:

"There is no other life; life itself is only a vision and a dream for nothing exists but space and you. If there was an all-powerful God, he would have made all good, and no bad." Mark Twain in Eruption

The millions of Christians who will tell you with absolute certainty that there is a God will go on to doubt that belief on many occasions throughout their lives and in some instances will revert to non belief, so you can't claim that they enjoy a belief based on absolute certainty.

[sirineou]

There have actually been a number of posts well worth reading

Yeaaa, mostly my posts

But honestly, you are right this thread could had easily deteriorated to a slugfest , but to the credit of posters on both sides of the issue it has remained , as you said civil.

This reflects well on both sides, but more so on the Atheists because WE ARE RIGHT