Thai Army strongly slams Thaksin’s lawyer, Robert Amsterdam

[xminator]

And right there the "army" behaves in a way it should not. The correct answer would be that "we serve and protect, no comment".

[Thailand]

Whatever your preferences may be,red,yellow , white etc. the article is not too far off the truth?

And obviously was a little to close to the bone hence the reaction and threats?

[rubl]

Since when was it amsterdams place to blast the Thai army.

Oh yes, he is Thaksins mouthpiece so he is talking for the convicted crim.

How dare the army attempt to prevent the chosen one from returning to claim his rightful place as the dictator.

Please highlight what part of Amsterdams article was factually incorrect so we can all discuss

difficult, just like highlighting what is factual correct. Clever lawyers are like that. Some can even make you wonder whether you really saw what you saw.

[Trembly]

I don't understand why people are getting so excited about a lawyer doing his job.

Amsterdam is paid good money by his client to paint his client's enemies in an unfavourable light. Thaksin has been really dishing out the cash to his small army of western lobbyists, lawyers and media-PR firms, so the least Amsterdam could do is to pen an essay and put it up on his site.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Trembly

[icare999]

The really foolish thing is that the Army has bothered to issue this press release rebutting Amsterdams statement.

Obviously as Mr Amsterdam is not in Thailand, the Army are unable to invoke the arcane defamation laws that are regularly used to silence critics,

The irony is by responding to the accusations, without offering anything in defense, but only to say Amsterdam is persona non grata it would appear to most observers that the article has substance.

Lets face it, a quick google will show that many of these claims are indeed factually correct.

The Army would be better of saying nothing, the only effect it has is digging themselves deeper into the hole they are already in.

i think its Taksin and his regime which have dug their own hole. You are totally naive and mistaken if you think the army really could give a toss but they have thank goodness shown their hand cleverly as yet another warning shot to Taksin that he will not be allowed to simply take over Thailand

In any case everyone has right to refute any accusation made against them particularly from someone totally on Taksins side and paid by him. Even if he claims he no longer acts for Taksin its more than likely that he's still paid under the table so that he can claim he's unbiased What a load of BS

weather its legal or not I doubt he will dare come back to Thailand unless Taksin does succeed in making here into his own dictatorship when he probably would be awarded the Taksin medal of honour for upholding democracy in Thailand

[bigbamboo]

Of course Thaksin's lawyer/representative/mouthpiece or whatever he's paid to be these days is right when he says that the army is anti his employer.

Their first loyalty is to king and country.

Edited January 11, 2014 by bigbamboo

[FangFerang]

Amsterdam does NOT speak for America, Americans or the American government (although he and the government seem to be reading the same sheet music lately). He is obviously in a position that has a definite conflict of interest.

Thailand is not America or Great Britain, or Holland. The whole subtext of what Amsterdam said was that 'Thailand should be a SE Asian America, and if you don't live up to that expectation then you are not democratic.' Yes, historically the military has intervened, and in ways that created more problems, but they are not fools or people who do not learn. America also has a history (Iraq) of unlawful and despicable military interventions (like the Philippine War, which was a butchering slaughterhouse that is tucked safely under the rug of history).

What hogwash and lies. Australia has a democracy that is different than American democracy. Great Britain has a democracy that is different than American democracy. Holland has a democracy that is different than American democracy.

Thailand is developing along lines that are uniquely Thai. If Thai people, the Great King, and the armed forces are satisfied with the military being a force for stability, who the hell is Amsterdam to tell them to 'Americanize'?

He should piss off.

Stability and prosperity should be the only yardsticks used when writing news about a foriegn culture. Say anything you want in a pub, but be careful about what is deemed news. He did (Shah of Iran), and they did (Franko), and we support (any number of puppets) are interventionist arguments that have never created stability in almost any nation the US decided to interfere with.

I will wait to see what the military does before I shoot off my words. So far, they have acted as a cautionary warning to two power mad factions. We will see what happens, but Amsterdam should have noting to do with it. Because of the cultural tendency of 'saving face', he provoked the military into a response, plain and simple. According to Thai culture, they HAD to respond to his well-published criticism.

We are already swimming in gasoline here. What a fool to throw his lit cigarette butts into it. If the military makes these two factions sit down at the negotiating table, who could slight them? I would not, even in a pub.

[jayboy]

Since when was it amsterdams place to blast the Thai army.

Oh yes, he is Thaksins mouthpiece so he is talking for the convicted crim.

How dare the army attempt to prevent the chosen one from returning to claim his rightful place as the dictator.

Please highlight what part of Amsterdams article was factually incorrect so we can all discuss

difficult, just like highlighting what is factual correct. Clever lawyers are like that. Some can even make you wonder whether you really saw what you saw.

In other words you cannot identify any inaccuracies in Amsterdam's remarks on the Thai army.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[focus27]

The relationship between Amsterdam and Thaksin is not so simple as a lawyer and his client.

Read this article about their deeper connections (http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2011/02/globalist-page-robert-amsterdam.html)

Although the offending Amsterdam article is clearly a puff piece and short on specifics, it is close enough to some truths to have stirred a reaction. Just read some history from the 1932 coup onwards and see who did what; today's characters are just following their inheritance.

Indeed, so much huffing and puffing and colour-blindness seems to hide the deeper and more important story - this is sadly true of every country and every government but that's not the point here - which is the battle between the Thai oligarchy and the international globalists, for whom Thaksin is himself a useful puppet. Follow the money and see the strings.

Democracy is itself a weak form of government - just look around the world's supposed democracies. The choice for the Thai people is ultimately between two power blocs - a real people's revolution, demanding something akin to an Athenian participatory local democracy, is nowhere near to taking place.

[Hawk]

accusing the Thai Army of having a long and ignoble tradition of stymieing democracy, attacking civilians and meddling in politics.

The Thai army generals and other senior officers have always said that Thailand is not ready for democracy/self government, and teach all new officer cadets that the country should be run by the (ultranationalistic) army instead. The Thai army dislikes and distrusts all civilians, and so have always been a law unto themselves, as no government has ever been able to control them, and for the foreseeable future never will.

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

Whether we like it or not, Amsterdam is not a nobody, so what is says is sucked up by the local supporters and international press.

Do you have any link that supports your contention that Amsterdam's piece is "sucked up" by the international press?

I've found zero reports from international media on the issue.

[wave]

The really foolish thing is that the Army has bothered to issue this press release rebutting Amsterdams statement.

Obviously as Mr Amsterdam is not in Thailand, the Army are unable to invoke the arcane defamation laws that are regularly used to silence critics,

The irony is by responding to the accusations, without offering anything in defense, but only to say Amsterdam is persona non grata it would appear to most observers that the article has substance.

Lets face it, a quick google will show that many of these claims are indeed factually correct.

The Army would be better of saying nothing, the only effect it has is digging themselves deeper into the hole they are already in.

i think its Taksin and his regime which have dug their own hole. You are totally naive and mistaken if you think the army really could give a toss but they have thank goodness shown their hand cleverly as yet another warning shot to Taksin that he will not be allowed to simply take over Thailand

In any case everyone has right to refute any accusation made against them particularly from someone totally on Taksins side and paid by him. Even if he claims he no longer acts for Taksin its more than likely that he's still paid under the table so that he can claim he's unbiased What a load of BS

weather its legal or not I doubt he will dare come back to Thailand unless Taksin does succeed in making here into his own dictatorship when he probably would be awarded the Taksin medal of honour for upholding democracy in Thailand

Obviously the Army do give a toss otherwise they wouldn't have bothered to reply.

The fact is that much of what is written is correct and is borne out by the Armys history within Thailand,

Of course they have a right to refute the allegations but they offer no alternative narrative to Amsterdams claims.

They would be much better off not acknowledging these accusations because to do so just draws more attention to them.

You, like others, are so blinded by your hate of Thaksin that you are unable to see the situation in broader terms or accepting that the flaws within Thai society stretch far beyond this one man.

To imagine that somehow the eradication of Thaksin and his family will return Thailand to some sort of Utopian society is risible.

This article by Amsterdam has substance and affiliation with Thaksin doesn't change that.

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

Simply Thaksin throwing money around (again).

Does Amsterdam write this if not being paid? I don't think so, I don't think he pays any attention without Thaksin pay.

It's just the same as the 500thb for a vote, many talk "Democracy" but how can you have "Democracy" when poor, il-educated people cast their votes for the one that gives them 500thb and buys a couple rounds of beers?

Mr. Amsterdam has not represented the former PM for quite some time. I believe he was speaking from his position as an internationally recognized expert in human rights law.

You believe wrong.

You are confusing his terminating his contract only as a lobbyist for Thaksin's concerns in the USA with terminating his representation of Thaksin, which he has not done, in other arenas.

http://legaltimes.typepad.com/blt/2012/07/firm-quits-us-lobbying-for-former-thai-prime-minister.html

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

And the problem with your argument is that Amsterday is the paid mouthpiece of a convicted fugitive from justice and therefor anything but unbiased.

He no longer represents the former PM.

Incorrect. See above post.

[Publicus]

And the problem with your argument is that Amsterday is the paid mouthpiece of a convicted fugitive from justice and therefor anything but unbiased.

He no longer represents the former PM.

Then I guess the title to the thread should be changed?

Perhaps a new thread could be opened:

"Army Bans Coup Critic From Thailand."

That might be more the course to take if one were to say anything more accurately.

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

And the problem with your argument is that Amsterday is the paid mouthpiece of a convicted fugitive from justice and therefor anything but unbiased.

He no longer represents the former PM.

Then I guess the title to the thread should be changed?

It's valid. He's still Thaksin's lawyer.

Never hurts to have a look for yourself at what some posters on here claim, no matter how assured they may sound.

Thaksin Shinawatra's Canadian lawyer Robert Amsterdam was red-faced last week after a nasty message got loose from his Twitter account.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/life/Thems-fightin-tweets-Thaksin-lawyer-sorry-for-bein-30220916.html

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

And the problem with your argument is that Amsterday is the paid mouthpiece of a convicted fugitive from justice and therefor anything but unbiased.

He no longer represents the former PM.

Then I guess the title to the thread should be changed?

Perhaps a new thread could be opened:

"Army Bans Coup Critic From Thailand."

That might be more the course to take if one were to say anything more accurately.

See above. The headline is accurate as is.

Apart from the "Thaksinrs" typo bit, that is.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Maha Sarakham Marty

[Boxclever]

The colonel said this lawyer will be considered an undesirable person for the country, he said.

Since when is it the decision of an army to consider someone an undesirable person?

Yes, accuse the Thai army of interfering in the running of the country and what do they do? Assume the role of the immigration department.

Funny how by trying to deny what Amsterdam said, they pretty much confirmed his statement.

Yes exactly.

We now know where the army stands.

[Thait Spot]

Whatever your preferences may be,red,yellow , white etc. the article is not too far off the truth?

And obviously was a little to close to the bone hence the reaction and threats?

Seems to me the armed forces are doing their damnedest to keep out of things.

Seems to me the people trying to bring in the army are the Shinawatras

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[cocopops]

The Army and the Navy just can't take it when someone tells the truth about them.

So, there it is. You officially endorse and support Amsterdam's statements. That might be a foolhardy action if your side doesn't win. Frankly, I continue to be amazed at many of the posts on this forum that routinely engage in what Thai law regards as criminal defamation. The people doing so, I assume, do not reside in nor plan to visit Thailand anytime soon.

Is it seriously your opinion that there exists a scenario in which a future Thai government will comb through old thaivisa threads in order to assemble a blacklist of foreigners who have posted opinions critical of them?

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

Since when is it the decision of an army to consider someone an undesirable person?

Yes, accuse the Thai army of interfering in the running of the country and what do they do? Assume the role of the immigration department.

Funny how by trying to deny what Amsterdam said, they pretty much confirmed his statement.

Even funnier is that by Amsterdam's own words, he's been barred from Thailand for 3 years already, yet posters unknowingly think this is something new.

"The [authorities] have barred me personally, but they haven’t prevented us from presenting our point of view,” he says."

October 21, 2010

http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/robert-amsterdam-profiled/

Edited January 11, 2014 by Maha Sarakham Marty

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

The army is what's wrong with Thailand. Had it not been for the army the government could have arrested both Suthep and the violent demonstrators, bringing an end to this stalemate.

When did the Army tell the police not to arrest Suthep or his demonstrators?

Its okay to plead ignorance.

It's ok if you are ignorant of a specific quote/link/article to answer my specific question, but you shouldn't feel obligated to reveal that ignorance to the forum.

[stoffel45]

It's irrelevant what Amsterdam said. The creepy thing about this story is that army asserts the power to label people as undesirable person based on their speech.

No, "The Army" did not label this creature of Taksin's "undesirable" - though by any decent measure, he most certainly is and his client with him.

It was the Army spokesman who said these words.

And - though Taksinites would disagree - we are all entitled to our opinion.

[fstarbkk]

And the problem with your argument is that Amsterday is the paid mouthpiece of a convicted fugitive from justice and therefor anything but unbiased.

He no longer represents the former PM.

Sure, in the same way Thaksin is no longer married to. So what?

[zydeco]

The Army and the Navy just can't take it when someone tells the truth about them.

So, there it is. You officially endorse and support Amsterdam's statements. That might be a foolhardy action if your side doesn't win. Frankly, I continue to be amazed at many of the posts on this forum that routinely engage in what Thai law regards as criminal defamation. The people doing so, I assume, do not reside in nor plan to visit Thailand anytime soon.

Is it seriously your opinion that there exists a scenario in which a future Thai government will comb through old thaivisa threads in order to assemble a blacklist of foreigners who have posted opinions critical of them?

There is a current Thai government that has its police overseeing social media for threats to "instability". People have already been summoned and appeared before the police. Do you ever read the newspapers, here, in Thailand? Or do you just comment? If it's the latter, there are also several past discussions on the topic in this very forum. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/658612-four-people-to-be-summoned-for-posting-unwanted-texts-on-social-media/

Edited January 11, 2014 by zydeco

[unanimosity]

The colonel said this lawyer will be considered an undesirable person for the country, he said.

Since when is it the decision of an army to consider someone an undesirable person?

Since now, you got a problem with that?

[Publicus]

The subtext of this story is clear - Thaksin is terribly worried. Robert Amersterdam has been Thaksin's ever faithful - albeit richly rewarded - mouthpiece and propaganda tool. And he says whatever Thaksin instructs him to say.

" He said the article was defamatory and filled with groundless and baseless false information ever written by such a person with “narrow-mind” and ” hidden agenda” and evil intention to discredit the army. "

​It is clear from this what the army really thinks of the man behind Amersterdam - Thaksin. And it's not pretty. Thaksin knows that, of course. Hence Amsterdam's current marching orders. What is striking is how few options Thaksin has left. The introduction of the amnesty bill on October 13 meant that he could never come back. That wasn't clear to him then. It is clear to him now. But he still wants his power and his influence. And if the Yingluck administration goes - so does both. And one suspects, Amsterdam's handsome commission along with it.

I see a subtext but a radically different one that excludes obsessions on Thaksin whom I myself wholly reject as a tyrant in government.

The subtext I see is of Western and other governments and global investors viewing the Thai army as some kind of brute force that determines both the everyday life and the overall direction of Thailand. The army's announcement that Amsterdam is not suitable morally or in character to enter Thailand is yet another arrogant usurpation of proper civilian authority.

It's a strong negative to Thailand that the Army does not allow a stable and elected government to be or remain either stable or elected.

The army is as corrupt as the political class. And it is ideological. Corrupt and ideological uniformed forces with tanks and artillery and political vendettas are a guarantee of volatility.

The history of nearly 20 coups and the contemporary reality of the Army rolling tanks around the capital and saying the "door is open" when asked about a coup promotes an instability and an absence of civilian control that keeps Thailand in the Dark Ages of governance and constitutionalism. It militates against a stable electoral democracy.

Amsterdam makes this obvious point but with a new energy. That he is accurate is the lesson of Thai history.

Elected governments constantly and repeatedly looking over their shoulder watching tanks and artillery maneuver in the streets makes for an unstable civil society,

This historical interventionism long ago identified Thailand as a flawed state. Its continuation threatens Thailand with becoming a definitively failed state. Thailand is beginning to look like the old Burma of the past 40 years.

Amsterdam's piece and this thread focus on this and the army and its long history of coups.

It is not the army's role or obligation to kick Thaksin out of Thailand or to keep Thaksin out of Thailand. The government tried to bring Thaksin back safely and securely for him but was stopped by the people and by civil society.

The End.

[Suffinator]

The colonel said this lawyer will be considered an undesirable person for the country, he said.

Since when is it the decision of an army to consider someone an undesirable person?

Exactly what I was going to say. Of course Amsterdam is perfectly correct and that democracy can never exist whilst a technically unaccountable army has its finger on the trigger.

[choff56]

You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't piss into the wind, you don't pull the mash off the Lone Ranger, and you don't eff wtth the Thai Army. Really, is antagonizing the Army the best way to get them on your side, Mr. Amsterdam? Your boss has become more and more an idiot in his later years.

Unless your bad bad Somchai Brown.

[bobmac10]

He's absolutely spot on!

It's always been this way, the generals preparing the society for themselves for when they retire.

Pretty much your banana republic.

Until the army becomes an instrument of government, as in western democracies, this country is stuffed.