Pumping water up hill....cost/method?

[cheeryble]

Hi there

The missus is interested in a wonderful plot north of Chiangrai

It's interesting because it's on a little hillock which is very steep on on side , probably 80 degrees, with it's own small pineapple field going down the modestly sloping side.

Anyway point is it has a perfect place for a house on top.

I am wondering about the cost of pumping water up to the house/garden to be.

Sorry I have do not know about he head of water in the public supply only that there is piped water there now to the old wooden house.

So I guess we have to say worst case scenario and it's from the valley floor up.

Again I'm not sure of that distance I'm guessing it's 60 or 70 feet, but maybe more.....could work out for 100 feet and adjust accordingly. Oh! I'm supposed it be a scientist and should work in metres.

Anyway you got he idea.....can I afford water for a proper garden on top? And can I afford the luxury of a pond which leaks water into the soil? (ps I know how long is a piece of string but how much top up DO these ponds need? (The earth is red and has an element of yellow and white with clayiness to it a piece will hold firm when you pick it up, feel damp even now, but break easily). I heard you should just wait six months and a pond gets much more watertight.......any other clues maybe something natural to line it?

Thanks!

Edited January 12, 2014 by cheeryble

[Crossy]

You need to check:-

1. Water pressure from the village supply
2. Height of the hill you need to pump up

Then you will have one or more of these options.

Pump sizes and control systems will also depend upon the above factors as well as your intended water consumption.

Even option 3, the most expensive, should not be prohibitive.

[billd766]

It it was me and cost is not prohibitive I would go for option #3.

With a house tank you should always have a supply of water just in case the village supply runs low on amount or pressure.

I have always believed that it is easier to push water up a hill than pull or suck it uphill but I may be wrong.

With option 3 if you do get a water loss from the village you also have the buffer tank to fall back on as a reserve.

Don't forget to put a one way valve between the buffer tank and the buffer pump to stop the water in the pipe from running downhill.

[Wonka]

A normal pump for household use is a centrifugal pump, and normal types cannot pump the water so high.

You will probably need a piston pump (there are a few other pump types, that can be used, but they are not common here).

Better make a measurement of the height to pump, and talk with a local specialist.

For any pump type there is a limit of 6-8 meters suction depth.

[ExpatOilWorker]

Assuming you use 1,000 l/day, have to lift the water 50 m (164 ft), to have some pressure at the house and the efficiency of the system including friction is 15%, your lift cost is:

27 kwh/month ~ 150 baht/month.

Do you have any pictures of this hilltop?

[Crossy]

No need for a positive displacement (piston) pump, but you may require a multi-stage centrifugal (or two single stage in tandem).

[sirineou]

excuse my ignorance,

but wouldn't a submersible well pump have a head in excess of 200 ft?

[Crossy]

To get much over a 100 foot total head you need a multi-stage centrifugal pump whether it be submersible or not.

It all depends upon just how high his hill really is.

[cheeryble]

Thankyou for your amazingly useful comments, and especially Crossy….above and beyond….and EOW for the calculation.

I think at this stage I am just thinking that an ample water supply for a verdant garden is essential, and discovering if the cost is OK.

Must admit I had thought much more than 150baht/month for a cu.m./day….if it is anywhere near that it is fine.

Anyway I shall learn more soon about head of water and so on. (I don't know of running water for a ram pump). There are higher hills not far away so it's actually not impossible the water will have the head to flow up this hillock there is undoubtedly a pipe to there now but not had opportunity to ask about this.

The land would be coming from a member of the extended family who have always proved to be first rate and they want us to have it to keep it in the family like just about every plot within sight. No title deeds just unregistered, but that's fine I want my wife to have a place in reserve nearby her sister and family for when I'm dead and gone…..and hopefully for me too for a good while!

Stay tuned and thanks!

Edited January 12, 2014 by cheeryble

[rakman]

<snip>

I have always believed that it is easier to push water up a hill than pull or suck it uphill but I may be wrong.

</snip>i

You are correct.

In the middle ages, an enterprising alchemist found that a suction pump would only raise water about 32 ft, no matter how good a suction pump he used. Further testing showed that the level of water in a column sealed at the top would vary if it rained or was sunny.

This led to the barometer. Mercury is about 32 times heavier than water, making for a practical barometer.

While option 3 has the most advantages, it can be made more efficient by running the uphill line to the bottom of the top tank and using a check valve at both the in and out of the lower tank. A column of water is the same weight determined by the size of the pipe, regardless of where the pipe terminates, even a tank of water. So by not running the uphill line to the top of the top tank, you take off some of the pressure and work required to fill the tank. The check valve on the village side of the lower tank avoids losing the water in the lower tank if the village supply stops. If you use a sealed lower tank (expensive) you wouldn't need a shutoff valve for water level at the bottom tank. and only a check valve on the village side. But a couple of manual valves for maintenance is recommended.

Edited January 12, 2014 by rakman

[farang62]

Sucking water is always a problem , if you get an air leak or bad foot valve you burn out the seals in the pump. We always try and have a positive source of water avaliable to the pump. A buffer tank and a float switch to cut the pump power if the tank has no water.

Pumping water Up is expensive, a rule to follow is 1 bar = (14.2 psi) for every 10 meter of water columb, so if you are pumping uo 30 meters you must overcome 3x3bar or about 43 psig of pressure before you will get water out at the top, It takes a lot of power to pump water up a long distance not to mention the cost of the pump. Best to use the step method several low cost pumps and small tanks pumping to several different levels, reliable and cheaper in the long run.

Also remember if the top tank is 30 meters above where you need the water you won't need a pump as there will be 3 bar at the bottom of the hill or building.

This becomes difficult in high rise buildings, example 100 meter tall building with a water tank on the roof= 10 bar or 150 psig on the ground floor.. Conversly on the top floors you will need a pump because there will not be enough water pressure, usually fro the 3 floors below the top.

We have found that it is best to install water tanks at different, staged levels in a high building.

Remember, 10 meter colomb of water =1 bars of pressure, basicly no matter where, on the Moon or Mars

[ExpatOilWorker]

Sucking water is always a problem , if you get an air leak or bad foot valve you burn out the seals in the pump. We always try and have a positive source of water avaliable to the pump. A buffer tank and a float switch to cut the pump power if the tank has no water.

Pumping water Up is expensive, a rule to follow is 1 bar = (14.2 psi) for every 10 meter of water columb, so if you are pumping uo 30 meters you must overcome 3x3bar or about 43 psig of pressure before you will get water out at the top, It takes a lot of power to pump water up a long distance not to mention the cost of the pump. Best to use the step method several low cost pumps and small tanks pumping to several different levels, reliable and cheaper in the long run.

Also remember if the top tank is 30 meters above where you need the water you won't need a pump as there will be 3 bar at the bottom of the hill or building.

This becomes difficult in high rise buildings, example 100 meter tall building with a water tank on the roof= 10 bar or 150 psig on the ground floor.. Conversly on the top floors you will need a pump because there will not be enough water pressure, usually fro the 3 floors below the top.

We have found that it is best to install water tanks at different, staged levels in a high building.

Remember, 10 meter colomb of water =1 bars of pressure, basicly no matter where, on the Moon or Mars

Not true. Actually 1 bar = 100,000 Pa (Pascal, N/m2), a 10 m water collum is only 98,200 Pa or 0.982 bar.

On the Moon where gravity is 1/6 of earth gravity, you will need a collum of water 6 times higher to get the same pressure as on Earth.

NB: A bar and atm is also not the same. 1 atm = 1.01325 bar

Edited January 13, 2014 by ExpatOilWorker

[cheeryble]

Haha

The question being Farang 62 when you say pumping is expensive do we all agree with EOW's pumping cost figures of 5baht/day/cu.m.....which sounds to me cheap enough?

[billd766]

<snip>

I have always believed that it is easier to push water up a hill than pull or suck it uphill but I may be wrong.

</snip>i

You are correct.

In the middle ages, an enterprising alchemist found that a suction pump would only raise water about 32 ft, no matter how good a suction pump he used. Further testing showed that the level of water in a column sealed at the top would vary if it rained or was sunny.

This led to the barometer. Mercury is about 32 times heavier than water, making for a practical barometer.

While option 3 has the most advantages, it can be made more efficient by running the uphill line to the bottom of the top tank and using a check valve at both the in and out of the lower tank. A column of water is the same weight determined by the size of the pipe, regardless of where the pipe terminates, even a tank of water. So by not running the uphill line to the top of the top tank, you take off some of the pressure and work required to fill the tank. The check valve on the village side of the lower tank avoids losing the water in the lower tank if the village supply stops. If you use a sealed lower tank (expensive) you wouldn't need a shutoff valve for water level at the bottom tank. and only a check valve on the village side. But a couple of manual valves for maintenance is recommended.

Thank you for that information as it was something I never knew.

A few years ago I used to pump water from the klong about 3 metres vertically, then about 300 metres horizontally rising about another 5 metres vertically using a chinese/honda engined water pump running on gasoline. That was expensive and I had to ask one person if I could run the flexible 1 1/2 inch pipe across her land, get the guy who worked for me at the time to glue and feed some plastic water pipe about 12 metres through the drain under the road and then ask my neighbour if I could run the pipe across his land then dig up his drive and bury a pipeto get to our land. It all worked but not that well and I manage to pump about 2 cubic metres of water an hour.

[Pez1947]

I see lots of very good advice, but none suggested you need to check the source of the water. If it is currently from a well the proposed extra consumption could have a very bad effect on the well. I lived in a small village, if people used too much water(from the village pump) black sludge would come out of the tap.

If you install at pump any where you will need to enclose it in a frame - very desirable for light fingers.

[FalangBaa]

Don't even THINK about trying to pump water uphill. Just install loads of big tanks on the top of the hill to collect water when it rains, and a purification system if you also want to use that water for drinking. Never try to go against nature, and especially don't go against gravity, or you'll come down to earth with a bump.

[Naam]

Never try to go against nature...

[Pacificperson]

OP, I have been there and option three is the best. With option 1, you might find yourself with intermittant water as the pressure in the village water supply varries. This can work if the tank refills overnight as demand on the system allows sufficient presure to fill your tank. Sometimes you can go for a couple of days without refilling your tank. Option 2, can work with a high-pressure off-on switch, but it is a real pain to get the switch set just right to keep the proper pressure at the house. With option 3, you can use a regular household blader tank, pump and switch at the house and a multi-stage booster at the bottom. The key is matching the capacity of booster to the elevation difference between the lower pump and the house. The critical parameter is the height of the lift and not the length of the run. In my case we were working with a 300 foot lift and a 2 mile run for a single house and the two sets of pumps was less than $800. The pipe and the tanks will be additional.

[lannarebirth]

. Never try to go against nature, and especially don't go against gravity,

You can swim across the river if you want, but I'm taking the bridge.

[cheeryble]

News...we visited yesterday to try and decide between this and another family site.

I had never even inspected the place fully before, only visited briefly.

There is a sort of step going down the gentler slope side, and on this sits a small tank. Apparently this gets nam pa pa (though I happen to know it is somewhat fallible even on a lower area not too far away....meaning holding tank for sure).

My guess is that from here up to the flat top is a touch under ten metres.

Only thing is.....we are now favouring the other site as although the view from the hillock is very broad it is of a developed farm area with all it's rather average buildings (albeit distant), whereas the other one is more private but unspoilt, has an enlargeable pond very close so we could have a sala with a landing on the water, plus a veritable lake in view on the next door land just a stone's throw away near our border. We might be able to make an arrangement with the lake owner that we adorn his view and he adorns ours.....starting with us making our pond much nicer and larger and planting some bualawong aside his lake for him as he hasn't built his resort yet (I know, we gotta be ready for anything!) That's if we go against nature of course :-)

Still amazed at the cheapness of pumping water uphill kindly calculated above.

Edited January 14, 2014 by cheeryble

[ExpatOilWorker]

News...we visited yesterday to try and decide between this and another family site.

I had never even inspected the place fully before, only visited briefly.

There is a sort of step going down the gentler slope side, and on this sits a small tank. Apparently this gets nam pa pa (though I happen to know it is somewhat fallible even on a lower area not too far away....meaning holding tank for sure).

My guess is that from here up to the flat top is a touch under ten metres.

Only thing is.....we are now favouring the other site as although the view from the hillock is very broad it is of a developed farm area with all it's rather average buildings (albeit distant), whereas the other one is more private but unspoilt, has an enlargeable pond very close so we could have a sala with a landing on the water, plus a veritable lake in view on the next door land just a stone's throw away near our border. We might be able to make an arrangement with the lake owner that we adorn his view and he adorns ours.....starting with us making our pond much nicer and larger and planting some bualawong aside his lake for him as he hasn't built his resort yet (I know, we gotta be ready for anything!) That's if we go against nature of course :-)

Still amazed at the cheapness of pumping water uphill kindly calculated above.

Sure sound nice, care to share some pictures?

[cheeryble]

Hi ExpatOW

a pic is added to another post I have made

"Is this cliff site stable?"

Hope we have a soil engineer who reads this site!

[cheeryble]

options.jpg

(Crossy's wonderful graphic doesn't seem to open itself just click)

Hi Crossy and all helpful posters....

It is a while now we have owned this hilltop.

Many months ago we got a well dug (local piped water supply is very intermittent so we will bypass it).

Sadly the guys who dug it pump would not perform on the day so they could not dig as deep as wanted.

We are getting on with things.

A borehole digging/water system guy friend of friend of missus came along to give an opinion.

There are 5 rings (45cm depth each) under ground level and two over.

At this time the first three below ground are dry, and the water covers the bottom two i.e. bit under a metre.

The borehole guy got a piece of old bamboo and "sounded" the bottom, twisting the pole.

It was clearly audible that it was in sand.

Now i have heard that sand is what you want, and yes the borehole guy then said if he were us he would simply dig another metre and see if it refills fast enough when pumped out.

We will do that.

What he also said was we would need three pumps and as well as a tank at the top, a tank at the bottom.

The bottom pump would pump through some filter material (another tank?) into the bottom holding tank. (He recommended Hitachi 200w about 6000bt)

The "big" pump would then push up the hill to the top tank....we're saying 30metres. The guy mentioned 12,000bt.

The top pump is for house pressure.

I was kind of surprised about this bottom pump and the filtering.

We then went to a shop in Chiangrai which sells lots of pumps.

The auntie-like lady immediately started drawing it all out and explaining things to the missus.

She said we don't need the first pump, we can just suck straight from the well with the big one and straight up hill.

She then showed us a couple of Italian pumps, Pedrollo and Saer, which missus has details on her phone, but i think ran about 1250watts. I think one was 7200bt.

So instead of 6000bt plus 12000bt and having to build filter tanks and recharging them sometimes, we would be spending 7200 for the pump and saving some work.

Any comments on any of the above.....the depth of well, the extra pump and it's necessity, the quality of those brands......would be most welcome, we at last want to get on with this and it's not our field of expertise at all.

Thanks v much

Edited May 18, 2015 by cheeryble

[cheeryble]

• (have no idea why the bulllets are in the post)

• This has been slow due to me not being well and too busy but we now have power poles 400m from supply at sister's house along track, then up the hill to the site.
• We have also laid a stout concrete pad and set on it two old fashioned "ong" which each hold about two tonnes I believe.
• To remind you read post above and Crossy's marvellous graphics, but basically we have a well at ricefield level, (dug but not deep enough...more about that to come) about 20 metres vertical rise up a slope to our site

I'm really pleased we took the trouble to get the ong, a plastic or S/S tank on top of the hill would not look right and I may paint them with who knows what design.

A friend suggested a layout for powering the pump, here are the basics:

This simple design allows for direct pumping to garden which seems a good idea.

It entails turning the water valve and putting the plug in one power socket or the other (yes of course I can make a switched arrangement, but simple may be best)

Some questions:

1. The tank water will need to be filtered. Friend suggested a metal tank holding sandy medium (is that right?) costs about 8000bt and medium need replacing every so often.

As this will be a budget job I wondered if there were alternatives.

I suggested for instance that maybe the water could come in one tank to the bottom and somehow be piped from higher up to tank 2. Sort of a settlement arrangement. Or do the same in both tanks so they are independent.

Doable?

Friend suggested also there is a filtering foam which could be built to fit into the lids for the tanks (or one of them) probably cheap and easy to replace.

There's more to ask especially about the well (which needs digging deeper and maybe sealing between all but bottom rings I hear.....maybe a rebuild....but got to get moving now.

All comments welcome!

ps here are Crossy's graphics again:

Edited January 20, 2016 by cheeryble

[cheeryble]

About my filtration foam I asked about did a search nd it seems to be the sort of foam you get on the cylindrical filter for a pond fountain pump.

I have one of these and it;s a fairly course filter would certainly keep bits out but not sedimentary type particles like clay size.

But as the water in the tanks would be used only very slowly with the suggested system (only for small dwelling as garden gets watered directly bypassing tanks) perhaps any fine particles would simply settle at the bottom of the tanks where perhaps there would be a layer of small shingle to help hold it, and main water outlet (not drain holes) is somewhat higher hopefully enough for a bit of settlement tank effect to take place.

https://www.google.com/search?q=water+filtration+foam&biw=1436&bih=812&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiFg5y3rrzKAhWUSY4KHXlmDGIQsAQISg#imgrc=jWtWaAxbef6vpM%3A

Any ideas where this stuff could be obtained? (pref if CM or CR) in sheets say 2 inch thick?

[billd766]

I see lots of very good advice, but none suggested you need to check the source of the water. If it is currently from a well the proposed extra consumption could have a very bad effect on the well. I lived in a small village, if people used too much water(from the village pump) black sludge would come out of the tap.

If you install at pump any where you will need to enclose it in a frame - very desirable for light fingers.

A lot depends on where you live I suppose. here in rural Khampaeng Phet my neighbour and I used to leave the pumps out for days at a time with no problems.

It feels at times similar to when I was growing up in the UK and nobody locked their doors and window. I read in the local paper where I used to live that in some areas you need to lock the house up even if you are only taking the trash to the bin 10 metres away.

I am so glad that I live in Thailand.

Off topic. Sorry.