Former chief judge says state of emergency declaration unlawful: Thailand

[binjalin]

stay retired - nothing worse than someone who "used to" be something start meddling when there day is over

He's a former chief judge so his opinion matters. Just because you don't agree with him doesn't mean he's meddling. He's definitely more qualified then everyone on TV regarding this matter.

No doubt because you agree with him "it's ok". He's a "former" the current one is who's opinion matters not that the judiciary are biased of course

[billd766]

The former Chief Judge based his opinion on political considerations rather than justice, securities, securities intelligence reports.

The Constitutional Court's earlier ruled that the anti-government protests were peaceful and constitutional are now illegitimate and irrelevant because events that unfold reveal that they are violence and aimed at creating more violence to seize power from a democratically elected government with the King as the Head of State.

And you know this how?

Is this officially a policy that has links to it or is it "just your opinion".

If it is official and you have links then POST them and prove it.

If iti s just your opinion then say so and it is worth the same as mine or anybody elses. Nothing.

[TVGerry]

stay retired - nothing worse than someone who "used to" be something start meddling when there day is over

He's a former chief judge so his opinion matters. Just because you don't agree with him doesn't mean he's meddling. He's definitely more qualified then everyone on TV regarding this matter.

No doubt because you agree with him "it's ok". He's a "former" the current one is who's opinion matters not that the judiciary are biased of course

There are all kinds of pundits and talking heads giving their opinion in public about what's happening. This man is a former chief judge so he knows what he's talking about. Besides which, if the current judiciary rules against this government, you red sympathizers are just going to dismiss it as 'bias' anyway. And that's the problem with this PTP government, democracy isn't just about winning votes, it's also about abiding by the judiciary even when they rule against you.

[icommunity]

The former Chief Judge based his opinion on political considerations rather than justice, securities, securities intelligence reports.

The Constitutional Court's earlier ruled that the anti-government protests were peaceful and constitutional are now illegitimate and irrelevant because events that unfold reveal that they are violence and aimed at creating more violence to seize power from a democratically elected government with the King as the Head of State.

And you know this how?

Is this officially a policy that has links to it or is it "just your opinion".

If it is official and you have links then POST them and prove it.

If iti s just your opinion then say so and it is worth the same as mine or anybody elses. Nothing.

I did not say it is an official policy. I wrote : "The former Chief Judge based his opinion on political considerations rather than justice, securities, securities intelligence reports." and I used

"...BECAUSE (bold by me) events that unfold reveal that they are violence and aimed at creating more violence to seize power from a democratically elected government with the King as the Head of State." in my argument that "The Constitutional Court's earlier ruled that the anti-government protests were peaceful and constitutional are now illegitimate and irrelevant."

[Spalpeen]

No shortage of experts on the Thai constitution here. Apparently "caretaker" is the latest obsession word of choice for the lunatic fringe. Less than two more weeks and we won't have to put up with this nonsense again.

[smutcakes]

Amazing the caretaker government cannot do this that or the other, its all illegal, but people all to happy to say actually its okay, you have the power to postpone elections etc etc Make up your mind, they either have authority or they dont, you cannot pick and choose what they can do based on you political affiliation.

[toybits]

While that court is studying the constitutionality of the SOE, could it also find out if the coup that propelled and installed Abhisit and Suthep was also constitutional? Oh! they gave those two amnesty - right? Ho Hum...

[whybother]

While that court is studying the constitutionality of the SOE, could it also find out if the coup that propelled and installed Abhisit and Suthep was also constitutional? Oh! they gave those two amnesty - right? Ho Hum...

What coup? What amnesty?

[trogers]

Typical bias yellow judge nonsense. Part of the democratic reforms proposed by both sides should include purging the bias judiciary, EC, "checks and balances" etc and replace them with neutral, objective people.

But but, that is what the PTP wanted to do purge the bias Judiciary and replace it with yes men! Just because you don't like what they say doesn't mean they are biased. Besides the way things are it seems even the politicains don't know thier own constitution!

Their legal advisers are certainly useless. Blunder after blunder after blunder.

I recall the similar advice given by people close to a particular emperor a long time ago. Try reading them from "The Emperor's new clothes".

[binjalin]

stay retired - nothing worse than someone who "used to" be something start meddling when there day is over

He's a former chief judge so his opinion matters. Just because you don't agree with him doesn't mean he's meddling. He's definitely more qualified then everyone on TV regarding this matter.

No doubt because you agree with him "it's ok". He's a "former" the current one is who's opinion matters not that the judiciary are biased of course

There are all kinds of pundits and talking heads giving their opinion in public about what's happening. This man is a former chief judge so he knows what he's talking about. Besides which, if the current judiciary rules against this government, you red sympathizers are just going to dismiss it as 'bias' anyway. And that's the problem with this PTP government, democracy isn't just about winning votes, it's also about abiding by the judiciary even when they rule against you.

ah you mean abiding by election results even when you lose? I get it now

also about abiding by a Royal Decree to hold elections? yes that must be it!

thanks for pointing this out

[fstarbkk]

He is correct in that if the protests did not reach emergency level, the SoE is unlawful. This is however for the CC to rule upon.

His other point is based on a logical fallacy arguing that because the Emergency Act outlines one means of invoking an SoE, that other means are inherently illegal.

Why is this a "logical fallacy"? Seems to me any decisions made possible by an unlawful act are fruits of the poisoned tree.

[TVGerry]

There are all kinds of pundits and talking heads giving their opinion in public about what's happening. This man is a former chief judge so he knows what he's talking about. Besides which, if the current judiciary rules against this government, you red sympathizers are just going to dismiss it as 'bias' anyway. And that's the problem with this PTP government, democracy isn't just about winning votes, it's also about abiding by the judiciary even when they rule against you.

ah you mean abiding by election results even when you lose? I get it now

also about abiding by a Royal Decree to hold elections? yes that must be it!

thanks for pointing this out

You're getting off topic but since you brought it up. If a government doesn't abide by the judiciary, it's no longer a legal government whether or not they won the elections. After all, if the government doesn't follow the law, why should anyone else?

[Thai at Heart]

Once again the constitution covers itself in glory.

What if thailand had to go to war and needed a cabinet resolution? Who wrote this stupid piece of paper and better still who would ever interpret it that way?

[Thai at Heart]

Perhaps this eminent retired judge could offer an opinion on the constitutional status of seditious attempts to overthrow an elected government and replace it with an unelected junta.

The main point of the thread is that PTP are not the elected government, they are the caretaker government. You might like to ask this erudite gentleman if attempts to overthrow a caretaker government constitutes sedition.

<snip>

To be technical I would think they are the elected caretaker government. Ridiculous description anyway. Is the country supposed to stop dead during an election?

[moonao]

Perhaps this eminent retired judge could offer an opinion on the constitutional status of seditious attempts to overthrow an elected government and replace it with an unelected junta.

exactly. If the credibility and judgment of this dinasaur judge was on trial tomorrow, he would not pass.

[Baerboxer]

Typical bias yellow judge nonsense. Part of the democratic reforms proposed by both sides should include purging the bias judiciary, EC, "checks and balances" etc and replace them with neutral, objective people.

Why is it that the PTP supporters never believe any judges or accept their legal interpretations if its not what PTP want?

So, you can only be neutral and objective if you agree with the Shin Clan. Otherwise you must be a biased yellow nasty dem supporter.

What a load of &lt;deleted&gt;. You think you understand Thai law better than a former Chief Judge? You think PTP never break or ignore the law when it suits, and the poor dears are hard done to?

Dream on!

[animatic]

Does the caretaker prime minister have the authority to unilaterally resume being an official prime minister without being sworn in by HM? According to alot of forum members her brother did have that authority, so surely his sister should also? Or was the coup removing an imposter prime minister that had no authority to be in that position?

The later answer is more correct.

Thaksin was expired as ACTING Caretaker PM.

He went to the palace and returned with a "no comment".

He was NOT given the position after his 'time dependent term' expired.

Though the laws on this point were not clear; What happens when a caretaker times out?

He then quit and his deputy took over the job.

A week later Thaksin unilaterally took the PM job back.

He was not sworn in to a second caretaker term, or as PM.

One thing was clear a PM must be sworn in, and resigning and having it accepted, restarts that process

Thaksin then did not say he was Caretaker PM he publicly called himself PM.

He then went to the UN in New York saying he was "Prime Minister Of Thailand",

to give a speech, that he effectively did not have the authority to give in that name.

There were also comments prior to departure he would create an SOE or Marshall Law.

There was a coup to remove him.

His 'legend' always says he was the PM removed from office.

But the reality is he was an expired caretaker PM,

and could be seen as acting as an usurper of the PM position.

He was quite the fool to go to New York under those circumstances.

Ego was always his Achilles heel.

[3NUMBAS]

its like a plot to a Planet of the Apes movie . they find a dusty tome in a cupboard from the past and adhere to it without using some common sense and think out a sensible outcome and sit round grunting to each other about the minute details

[diehard60]

Well after reading this I can see why he is an exchief judge. he says onething and then says just the opposite. He must be woring for suthep as suthep has done the same thing many times since getting on this bandwagon.

[moonao]

Typical bias yellow judge nonsense. Part of the democratic reforms proposed by both sides should include purging the bias judiciary, EC, "checks and balances" etc and replace them with neutral, objective people.

Why is it that the PTP supporters never believe any judges or accept their legal interpretations if its not what PTP want?

So, you can only be neutral and objective if you agree with the Shin Clan. Otherwise you must be a biased yellow nasty dem supporter.

What a load of &lt;deleted&gt;. You think you understand Thai law better than a former Chief Judge? You think PTP never break or ignore the law when it suits, and the poor dears are hard done to?

Dream on!

The very thing that united the yellow shirts back in 2005 and 2006 was apparently the sense that democracy was being subverted. Fast forward to now, and it is v2.0, and the checks and balances system has been almost completely stacked with yellow shirts. Its staring back at you right in the face by you cant or dont want to see it. Where are your principles now ? Grow a backbone and stand up for what you really believe. If you are not interested in democracy or don't care for a neutral checks and balances system, and are only interested in "thaksin bad man" and "power grab", thats fine, but be honest and stop hiding behind these false "principles" of yours.

[animatic]

Thaksin was expired as ACTING Caretaker PM.

He went to the palace and returned with a "no comment".

He was NOT given the position after his 'time dependent term' expired.

Though the laws on this point were not clear; What happens when a caretaker times out?

He then quit and his deputy took over the job.

A week later Thaksin unilaterally took the PM job back.

He was not sworn in to a second caretaker term, or as PM.

One thing was clear a PM must be sworn in, and resigning and having it accepted, restarts that process

Thaksin then did not say he was Caretaker PM he publicly called himself PM.

He then went to the UN in New York saying he was "Prime Minister Of Thailand",

to give a speech, that he effectively did not have the authority to give in that name.

There were also comments prior to departure he would create an SOE or Marshall Law.

There was a coup to remove him.

His 'legend' always says he was the PM removed from office.

But the reality is he was an expired caretaker PM,

and could be seen as acting as an usurper of the PM position.

Excellent post on the historical aspects of Thaksin's removal. Can you provide more on the events leading up to "Thaksin was expired as acting Caretaker PM." ? Or a link to an unbiased source of information on same? thanks in advance

It is out in the historical record but.

Thaksin won and election, but came within a hairs breadth of being removed for fiscal shenanigans by the Supreme Court.

Anywhere else he would have been removed, but they logic'd, he had just won a big election so we will ignore it.

During his term he hamstrung checks and balances agencies and sued any and all attempts to expose malfeasances.

This generated much bad feeling, in both the press and those losing to his schemes.

He mortgaged the country to Singapore for decades to pay off the IMF loans early removing the fiscal responsibility measures that came with the loans, allowing his regime greater leeway to do as they wished, simultaneously blaming those measures and the IMF for not making everyone rich.

He was re-elected, using public funds as populist perks, for the people in Issan and his Rice Network political machine

to ensure they voted for his parties. with in days he dictated to the parliament that the tax laws be changed to ones that favored his immediate business aims.

2 DAYS later

he sold his telecom business to Temasek, Singapore's investment branch, using proxies, while hiding much of the money

with his children and using off shore accounts to launder the funds. Then avoided paying $16 million in taxes due while saying he is doing all he can to help Thailands poor. This was the final straw for most all in opposition.

Thus started the PAD rallies, and a general upswelling of Anti-Thajksin sentiment.

The rise of the Caravan of The Poor, Rak Udon, Rak Chaing Mai and the Red Shirts et al as a street branch of his political parties.

He called a snap election just months after winning re-election in an effort to say ' See, the people don't care about my not paying taxes and selling the telecom company... I can do what I want.'

Then gets into the botched election, the entire election commission kicked out and eventually actually doing jail time,

The replacement election commission, the times out Caretaker PM status and resignation.

PAD increasing the rallies. TRT politicians marching from the park with Red shirts and slipping off, just before the Red Shirts attack a PAD group with machettes and slingshots.

Add the utterly faked attempted bomb assassination but some patsy from the DSI Attempts to use that for Marshall Law.

------- ------- ------- ------- ------- ------- -------

This is just a fraction of the Thaksin related bull poop I have observed since I've lived here.

[diehard60]

Typical bias yellow judge nonsense. Part of the democratic reforms proposed by both sides should include purging the bias judiciary, EC, "checks and balances" etc and replace them with neutral, objective people.

.........approved by Thaksin. That has been the Thaksinists policy for some time now, and it's another fine mess you've got us into Moonie.

This crony worked for suthep. Thaksin is no longer in Thailand so why do you keep referring to him.

[jitenshaman]

its like a plot to a Planet of the Apes movie . they find a dusty tome in a cupboard from the past and adhere to it without using some common sense and think out a sensible outcome and sit round grunting to each other about the minute details

even better than Planet of the Apes

[Trembly]

This mean that they will continue performing their duties until the new cabinet is formed. It does not mean that they still have authority to perform duties under the Constitution

How can they perform their duties if they don't have authority to perform their duties?

The clue is in the word "caretaker"; they can keep things ticking along and carry out the tasks that were decided upon before "caretaker" status, but no more. This is because a caretaker government only lasts until the next election.

[fab4]

Perhaps this eminent retired judge could offer an opinion on the constitutional status of seditious attempts to overthrow an elected government and replace it with an unelected junta.

The main point of the thread is that PTP are not the elected government, they are the caretaker government. You might like to ask this erudite gentleman if attempts to overthrow a caretaker government constitutes sedition.

<snip>

There were demands for a peoples council before parliament was dissolved.

28th November 2013:

Mr Suthep stepped down from politics to launch what he has described as protests to wipe out the "political machine of Thaksin". Mr Suthep led demonstrators who surrounded and occupied government buildings, while urging them to stay non-violent. As to his goal, he wants the government replaced with an unelected "people's council" to pick the country's leaders.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25116427

9th December 2013:

Bangkok, Thailand (CNN) -- Thai Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra dissolved the nation's parliament Monday and called for new elections. But the move did little to appease anti-government protesters who remained on the streets by the thousands.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/09/world/asia/thailand-protests/

Perhaps you might explain that to the "erudite gentleman" whilst you're at it.

[Trembly]

No shortage of experts on the Thai constitution here. Apparently "caretaker" is the latest obsession word of choice for the lunatic fringe. Less than two more weeks and we won't have to put up with this nonsense again.

I applaud your optimism.

[Quirpy]

I'm sure there will be a lot of hair-splitting views on this, but unless someone can prove that an ex-chief judge of the Supreme Court is raving bonkers, I'll take his word on this matter.

He could well be stark raving bonkers because he's referring to a constitution that was re-written by a military junta following on from the 2006 coup d'etat. In my view, once a constitution is meddled with by an unelected bunch of generals, it becomes worthless.

[pantareiyingluck]

Does the caretaker prime minister have the authority to unilaterally resume being an official prime minister without being sworn in by HM? According to alot of forum members her brother did have that authority, so surely his sister should also? Or was the coup removing an imposter prime minister that had no authority to be in that position?

The later answer is more correct.

Thaksin was expired as ACTING Caretaker PM.

He went to the palace and returned with a "no comment".

He was NOT given the position after his 'time dependent term' expired.

Though the laws on this point were not clear; What happens when a caretaker times out?

He then quit and his deputy took over the job.

A week later Thaksin unilaterally took the PM job back.

He was not sworn in to a second caretaker term, or as PM.

One thing was clear a PM must be sworn in, and resigning and having it accepted, restarts that process

Thaksin then did not say he was Caretaker PM he publicly called himself PM.

He then went to the UN in New York saying he was "Prime Minister Of Thailand",

to give a speech, that he effectively did not have the authority to give in that name.

There were also comments prior to departure he would create an SOE or Marshall Law.

There was a coup to remove him.

His 'legend' always says he was the PM removed from office.

But the reality is he was an expired caretaker PM,

and could be seen as acting as an usurper of the PM position.

He was quite the fool to go to New York under those circumstances.

Ego was always his Achilles heel.

And Ego/Narcism is also the potential limitor for Suthep.

[Tatsujin]

Well until such time as they reform the laws and the constitution to remove bias, uncertainty, loopholes and grey areas, we're stuck with what we've got for now.

As others have posted, things seem to be able to be interpreted very loosely currently but that's what the Constitution Court is there for, biased or not.

[pantareiyingluck]

stay retired - nothing worse than someone who "used to" be something start meddling when there day is over

He's a former chief judge so his opinion matters. Just because you don't agree with him doesn't mean he's meddling. He's definitely more qualified then everyone on TV regarding this matter.

Was he still an active objective judge few years back and handling the Temasek case?