Thai Election Commission told to finish polls by March 4

[retsdon]

Thailand is spiraling downwards towards ungovernable failed state status, and there are people on these boards are cheering it on.

[kikoman]

In order to get the 95% my understanding is that the 28 constituencies in the south must first have registrations followed by elections.

Were there any other constituencies that failed to legally elect a lawmaker such as those with one candidate polling less than 20%?

I assume that incomplete advance voting also needs to be completed to have the full quota of votes.

And they need to get this completed in a month?

What happens if they don't? Election voided?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

No, the election would not be voided.

it would be more like the EC violation of the election requirements outlined in the constitution!

Cheers

[englishoak]

This thread has twilight zones qualities of 65 days or so ago

[JRSoul]

Is it just me or are some posters so obsessed with their hatred of certain politicians that they feel the rule of law should no longer apply in Thailand?

Is it just me or are some posters so obsessed with their hatred of certain politicians who feel the rule of law should no longer apply in Thailand? Politicians who waste through incompetence and steal through greed vast sums of taxpayers' money. Politicians whose policies are designed to buy votes with taxation revenue with little or no benefit to the rest of the country. Politicians who try to borrow more and more to cover up the holes in revenue. Politicians who try to give themselves "get out of jail free" cards so they can steal more.

The real question is, why wouldn't they be obsessed?

[englishoak]

Is it just me or are some posters so obsessed with their hatred of certain politicians that they feel the rule of law should no longer apply in Thailand?

Is it just me or are some posters so obsessed with their hatred of certain politicians who feel the rule of law should no longer apply in Thailand? Politicians who waste through incompetence and steal through greed vast sums of taxpayers' money. Politicians whose policies are designed to buy votes with taxation revenue with little or no benefit to the rest of the country. Politicians who try to borrow more and more to cover up the holes in revenue. Politicians who try to give themselves "get out of jail free" cards so they can steal more.

The real question is, why wouldn't they be obsessed?

Well if your the obsessive type then you probably wont understand Gweilomans point

[JRSoul]

Is it just me or are some posters so obsessed with their hatred of certain politicians that they feel the rule of law should no longer apply in Thailand?

Is it just me or are some posters so obsessed with their hatred of certain politicians who feel the rule of law should no longer apply in Thailand? Politicians who waste through incompetence and steal through greed vast sums of taxpayers' money. Politicians whose policies are designed to buy votes with taxation revenue with little or no benefit to the rest of the country. Politicians who try to borrow more and more to cover up the holes in revenue. Politicians who try to give themselves "get out of jail free" cards so they can steal more.

The real question is, why wouldn't they be obsessed?

Well if your the obsessive type then you probably wont understand Gweilomans point

Sometimes I think that a parody of democracy could be more dangerous than a blatant dictatorship, because that gives people an opportunity to avoid doing anything about it.

Aung San Suu Kyi

The mentally lazy will accept crap because it easier than doing something about it - JRS

And we can see in which camp you sit, comfortably.

Edited February 5, 2014 by JRSoul

[englishoak]

No im just not a fan of mob rule id do it at the polls like most normal and non obsessive countries population tends to do. Only Thailand goes through this charade every few years one way or another, you can say everyone else is wrong or you can look and think hmmm maybe its us thats got it upside down .... maybe

[JRSoul]

No im just not a fan of mob rule id do it at the polls like most normal and non obsessive countries population tends to do. Only Thailand goes through this charade every few years one way or another, you can say everyone else is wrong or you can look and think hmmm maybe its us thats got it upside down .... maybe

But if the mob is more than 50%, isn't that democracy? Or at least the perverted version existing in Thailand where governments ignore court rulings, suborn the police, break laws with impunity and then issue themselves an amnesty (or try to).

PTP support in sunday's election was down to ~25% of the eligible vote, the anti-corruption agencies are closing in, and the people grow angrier every day as their main vote-buying policy collapses. They are finished. Now is the time to upgrade the level of democracy to something acceptable rather than sitting in a cloud of verbal flatulence about how good things have been.

[Robby nz]

Is it just me or are some posters so obsessed with their hatred of certain politicians that they feel the rule of law should no longer apply in Thailand?

Wondered that myself and posts like the two that follow yours reflect that obsession : from ulic

The EC is a bunch of incompetent buffoons who could not organize safe registration and polling site security

on the first go round what makes you think they will show more organizational and planning ability on a second.

From druad11

The EC is just a bunchis of pathetic Democrat loving partisan folks. Its kinda sad. They would love to sit on their hands and let the Dems strategy succeed.

This hate of the Dems, Abhsith and Suthep that comes through so clearly in the posts of the PT lovers on here is indeed unreasonable and ubfathomable.

That they can unquestionably support Yingluck and her government while ignoring all the trouble they have got this country in with their bad policies, lies and ignoring of the law is difficult to understand.

Perhaps as one of the offenders you could explain why this is ?

[drand11]

Do this for me. List all laws that Yingluk has broken. This does not mean your unliked policies, i mean laws broken. Please, entertain me. There are none!!

No charges. The rice issue is a civil case and after 2 years, no known illegal acts by Yingluk.

[englishoak]

No im just not a fan of mob rule id do it at the polls like most normal and non obsessive countries population tends to do. Only Thailand goes through this charade every few years one way or another, you can say everyone else is wrong or you can look and think hmmm maybe its us thats got it upside down .... maybe

But if the mob is more than 50%, isn't that democracy? Or at least the perverted version existing in Thailand where governments ignore court rulings, suborn the police, break laws with impunity and then issue themselves an amnesty (or try to).

PTP support in sunday's election was down to ~25% of the eligible vote, the anti-corruption agencies are closing in, and the people grow angrier every day as their main vote-buying policy collapses. They are finished. Now is the time to upgrade the level of democracy to something acceptable rather than sitting in a cloud of verbal flatulence about how good things have been.

Your arguing with the wrong guy, im from a place thats used to low turnouts at the best of times so it means nothing to me if its only 20% only those that vote have a voice and say what goes on next the rest dont.

As for the rest of the tirade again i dont really care for either of the circus freaks since i believe all of the sides to be equally corrupt given the chance.

[Thaddeus]

Do this for me. List all laws that Yingluk has broken. This does not mean your unliked policies, i mean laws broken. Please, entertain me. There are none!!

No charges. The rice issue is a civil case and after 2 years, no known illegal acts by Yingluk.

Perjury first, but then she got the law changed.

[smedly]

No im just not a fan of mob rule id do it at the polls like most normal and non obsessive countries population tends to do. Only Thailand goes through this charade every few years one way or another, you can say everyone else is wrong or you can look and think hmmm maybe its us thats got it upside down .... maybe

so don't you think something needs fixed before going through the whole thing again, it appears as you stated above having polls doesn't work here the last 50 years - perhaps reform is the best way forward not polls

[smedly]

Do this for me. List all laws that Yingluk has broken. This does not mean your unliked policies, i mean laws broken. Please, entertain me. There are none!!

No charges. The rice issue is a civil case and after 2 years, no known illegal acts by Yingluk.

so you believe the theft of billions of tax payers money is a civil case and not criminal ? and the PM has no responsibility for any of it - you are serious right

[lovetotravel]

Is it just me or are some posters so obsessed with their hatred of certain politicians that they feel the rule of law should no longer apply in Thailand?

when you have a seriously corrupt government who routinely break the law - intimidate the judiciary - refuse to recognise court rulings - attempt to get convicted criminals that have broken the law an amnesty as many as 25k of them - abuse power - lie cheat extort and thieve - what sort of reaction do you expect from people who generally respect the law

you need a reality check there buddy you obviously don't have a grasp of what goes on around you even when it's plain to see

Well put. Unfortunately, both major political parties are pretty bad here. Reform is desperately needed. Hopefully polls will be delayed long enough to kill the amnesty bill.

[Gweiloman]

Is it just me or are some posters so obsessed with their hatred of certain politicians that they feel the rule of law should no longer apply in Thailand?

Wondered that myself and posts like the two that follow yours reflect that obsession : from ulic

The EC is a bunch of incompetent buffoons who could not organize safe registration and polling site security

on the first go round what makes you think they will show more organizational and planning ability on a second.

From druad11

The EC is just a bunchis of pathetic Democrat loving partisan folks. Its kinda sad. They would love to sit on their hands and let the Dems strategy succeed.

This hate of the Dems, Abhsith and Suthep that comes through so clearly in the posts of the PT lovers on here is indeed unreasonable and ubfathomable.

That they can unquestionably support Yingluck and her government while ignoring all the trouble they have got this country in with their bad policies, lies and ignoring of the law is difficult to understand.

Perhaps as one of the offenders you could explain why this is ?

Regardless of my own personal persuasions, I always try to be objective and to post questions which I think are constructive and valid and which would have a basis in law.

I agree that some posts of the alleged PT lovers are indeed unreasonable and unfathomable. Unfortunately, the same also happens with those on the opposite side of the fence so neither has the moral high ground. This can only be claimed by those who are willing and able to see and admit the flaws on both sides of the divide.

[Gweiloman]

No im just not a fan of mob rule id do it at the polls like most normal and non obsessive countries population tends to do. Only Thailand goes through this charade every few years one way or another, you can say everyone else is wrong or you can look and think hmmm maybe its us thats got it upside down .... maybe

so don't you think something needs fixed before going through the whole thing again, it appears as you stated above having polls doesn't work here the last 50 years - perhaps reform is the best way forward not polls

I interpreted englishoak's post in a slightly different manner. In my mind, I think he means that reforms and polls are two separate issues. Reforms by all means, but do it within the confines of the law and constitution i.e. do it in parliament. But there has to be a parliament first and the only way to have this is via the polls.

[Robby nz]

No im just not a fan of mob rule id do it at the polls like most normal and non obsessive countries population tends to do. Only Thailand goes through this charade every few years one way or another, you can say everyone else is wrong or you can look and think hmmm maybe its us thats got it upside down .... maybe

so don't you think something needs fixed before going through the whole thing again, it appears as you stated above having polls doesn't work here the last 50 years - perhaps reform is the best way forward not polls

I interpreted englishoak's post in a slightly different manner. In my mind, I think he means that reforms and polls are two separate issues. Reforms by all means, but do it within the confines of the law and constitution i.e. do it in parliament. But there has to be a parliament first and the only way to have this is via the polls.

Would you really trust any political party once they got into power to put in place meaningful reforms that hampered their own aspirations ?

We hear over and over again on here that all parties and politicians are as bad as each other, if this is true then how can any of them be trusted ?

Even if a party has only a small majority and with a strong opposition both sides will have an agenda which they wont want derailed with any restrictions reforms may impose.

No one has come up with any firm answers as yet and far be it from me to suggest any, however if reforms are going to happen it seems to me they should be free of political interference and that would mean separate from an election process.

As reforms would likely include additional restrictions on who could become an MP then it would be preferable if they were put in place before an election for if a Govt was already in place it would be another 4 years before any new restrictions could be put in place and a lot of mischief could happen in that time.

As restrictions on who could be a MP how about, to start with :

No one who has been convicted on a criminal offense in a court of law.

Anyone on bail awaiting trial on a criminal charge should be suspended from being an MP, if found not guilty the suspension is lifted if guilty the above applies.

Anyone previously banned from politics for corruption or election fraud.

The idea being to keep the system as untainted as possible.

After all have a look at the present party lists alone and ask yourself . "Are these the sort of people you would want as role models for your kids" ?

[Gweiloman]

No im just not a fan of mob rule id do it at the polls like most normal and non obsessive countries population tends to do. Only Thailand goes through this charade every few years one way or another, you can say everyone else is wrong or you can look and think hmmm maybe its us thats got it upside down .... maybe

so don't you think something needs fixed before going through the whole thing again, it appears as you stated above having polls doesn't work here the last 50 years - perhaps reform is the best way forward not polls

I interpreted englishoak's post in a slightly different manner. In my mind, I think he means that reforms and polls are two separate issues. Reforms by all means, but do it within the confines of the law and constitution i.e. do it in parliament. But there has to be a parliament first and the only way to have this is via the polls.

Would you really trust any political party once they got into power to put in place meaningful reforms that hampered their own aspirations ?

We hear over and over again on here that all parties and politicians are as bad as each other, if this is true then how can any of them be trusted ?

Even if a party has only a small majority and with a strong opposition both sides will have an agenda which they wont want derailed with any restrictions reforms may impose.

No one has come up with any firm answers as yet and far be it from me to suggest any, however if reforms are going to happen it seems to me they should be free of political interference and that would mean separate from an election process.

As reforms would likely include additional restrictions on who could become an MP then it would be preferable if they were put in place before an election for if a Govt was already in place it would be another 4 years before any new restrictions could be put in place and a lot of mischief could happen in that time.

As restrictions on who could be a MP how about, to start with :

No one who has been convicted on a criminal offense in a court of law.

Anyone on bail awaiting trial on a criminal charge should be suspended from being an MP, if found not guilty the suspension is lifted if guilty the above applies.

Anyone previously banned from politics for corruption or election fraud.

The idea being to keep the system as untainted as possible.

After all have a look at the present party lists alone and ask yourself . "Are these the sort of people you would want as role models for your kids" ?

You raise some questions which I doubt anyone can answer. Imagine if it's not Thailand that we are talking about but a more developed and civilised country. What is the route that country would take? It would either be in the parliament or in the courts right? I am very sure that what is happening now in Thailand would not happen in any Western or Central European country.

Thailand is still in the infancy when it comes to being a democratic country. Like a child, it can only learn through it's own mistakes. But it must make mistakes in order to learn. Military and judicial coups merely set back that learning process, as has been obvious here.

[rubl]

Would you really trust any political party once they got into power to put in place meaningful reforms that hampered their own aspirations ?

We hear over and over again on here that all parties and politicians are as bad as each other, if this is true then how can any of them be trusted ?

Even if a party has only a small majority and with a strong opposition both sides will have an agenda which they wont want derailed with any restrictions reforms may impose.

No one has come up with any firm answers as yet and far be it from me to suggest any, however if reforms are going to happen it seems to me they should be free of political interference and that would mean separate from an election process.

As reforms would likely include additional restrictions on who could become an MP then it would be preferable if they were put in place before an election for if a Govt was already in place it would be another 4 years before any new restrictions could be put in place and a lot of mischief could happen in that time.

As restrictions on who could be a MP how about, to start with :

No one who has been convicted on a criminal offense in a court of law.

Anyone on bail awaiting trial on a criminal charge should be suspended from being an MP, if found not guilty the suspension is lifted if guilty the above applies.

Anyone previously banned from politics for corruption or election fraud.

The idea being to keep the system as untainted as possible.

After all have a look at the present party lists alone and ask yourself . "Are these the sort of people you would want as role models for your kids" ?

You raise some questions which I doubt anyone can answer. Imagine if it's not Thailand that we are talking about but a more developed and civilised country. What is the route that country would take? It would either be in the parliament or in the courts right? I am very sure that what is happening now in Thailand would not happen in any Western or Central European country.

Thailand is still in the infancy when it comes to being a democratic country. Like a child, it can only learn through it's own mistakes. But it must make mistakes in order to learn. Military and judicial coups merely set back that learning process, as has been obvious here.

'must make mistakes' and 'military / judicial coups set back ...'

Somehow I would have thought you'd put the coups under same heading 'mistakes' and hopefully something gets learned from it. Mind you even Fab4 stated 'checks and balances are present and work' so maybe you should stop the unjustified voicing of 'judicial coups'.

[Gweiloman]

Would you really trust any political party once they got into power to put in place meaningful reforms that hampered their own aspirations ?

We hear over and over again on here that all parties and politicians are as bad as each other, if this is true then how can any of them be trusted ?

Even if a party has only a small majority and with a strong opposition both sides will have an agenda which they wont want derailed with any restrictions reforms may impose.

No one has come up with any firm answers as yet and far be it from me to suggest any, however if reforms are going to happen it seems to me they should be free of political interference and that would mean separate from an election process.

As reforms would likely include additional restrictions on who could become an MP then it would be preferable if they were put in place before an election for if a Govt was already in place it would be another 4 years before any new restrictions could be put in place and a lot of mischief could happen in that time.

As restrictions on who could be a MP how about, to start with :

No one who has been convicted on a criminal offense in a court of law.

Anyone on bail awaiting trial on a criminal charge should be suspended from being an MP, if found not guilty the suspension is lifted if guilty the above applies.

Anyone previously banned from politics for corruption or election fraud.

The idea being to keep the system as untainted as possible.

After all have a look at the present party lists alone and ask yourself . "Are these the sort of people you would want as role models for your kids" ?

You raise some questions which I doubt anyone can answer. Imagine if it's not Thailand that we are talking about but a more developed and civilised country. What is the route that country would take? It would either be in the parliament or in the courts right? I am very sure that what is happening now in Thailand would not happen in any Western or Central European country.

Thailand is still in the infancy when it comes to being a democratic country. Like a child, it can only learn through it's own mistakes. But it must make mistakes in order to learn. Military and judicial coups merely set back that learning process, as has been obvious here.

'must make mistakes' and 'military / judicial coups set back ...'

Somehow I would have thought you'd put the coups under same heading 'mistakes' and hopefully something gets learned from it. Mind you even Fab4 stated 'checks and balances are present and work' so maybe you should stop the unjustified voicing of 'judicial coups'.

Sorry rubl, wrong again.

18 coups or attempted coups. Mistake yes, but not the kind you learn from.

Child does something wrong. Mistake. Gets punished. Learns lesson

Child does something wrong. Does not get punished. Mistake, but by parent. No lesson learnt by child.

[rubl]

Would you really trust any political party once they got into power to put in place meaningful reforms that hampered their own aspirations ?

We hear over and over again on here that all parties and politicians are as bad as each other, if this is true then how can any of them be trusted ?

Even if a party has only a small majority and with a strong opposition both sides will have an agenda which they wont want derailed with any restrictions reforms may impose.

No one has come up with any firm answers as yet and far be it from me to suggest any, however if reforms are going to happen it seems to me they should be free of political interference and that would mean separate from an election process.

As reforms would likely include additional restrictions on who could become an MP then it would be preferable if they were put in place before an election for if a Govt was already in place it would be another 4 years before any new restrictions could be put in place and a lot of mischief could happen in that time.

As restrictions on who could be a MP how about, to start with :

No one who has been convicted on a criminal offense in a court of law.

Anyone on bail awaiting trial on a criminal charge should be suspended from being an MP, if found not guilty the suspension is lifted if guilty the above applies.

Anyone previously banned from politics for corruption or election fraud.

The idea being to keep the system as untainted as possible.

After all have a look at the present party lists alone and ask yourself . "Are these the sort of people you would want as role models for your kids" ?

You raise some questions which I doubt anyone can answer. Imagine if it's not Thailand that we are talking about but a more developed and civilised country. What is the route that country would take? It would either be in the parliament or in the courts right? I am very sure that what is happening now in Thailand would not happen in any Western or Central European country.

Thailand is still in the infancy when it comes to being a democratic country. Like a child, it can only learn through it's own mistakes. But it must make mistakes in order to learn. Military and judicial coups merely set back that learning process, as has been obvious here.

'must make mistakes' and 'military / judicial coups set back ...'

Somehow I would have thought you'd put the coups under same heading 'mistakes' and hopefully something gets learned from it. Mind you even Fab4 stated 'checks and balances are present and work' so maybe you should stop the unjustified voicing of 'judicial coups'.

Sorry rubl, wrong again.

18 coups or attempted coups. Mistake yes, but not the kind you learn from.

Child does something wrong. Mistake. Gets punished. Learns lesson

Child does something wrong. Does not get punished. Mistake, but by parent. No lesson learnt by child.

"Child does something wrong. Does not get punished. Mistake, but by parent." Lesson learned 'can do with impunity'

[smedly]

Gwellowman - the only point I would make is - how long has Thailand been a so called democracy and how well have they advanced over that time - my opinion is they have not advanced as they should have - I put this partly down to the inability to remove those convicted of miss deeds from the ministry - they keep churning in a cycle every 5 years - secondly the immunity from prosecution clause while serving in office.

Reforms are needed to get this country out of this cycle of failure after failure and allow some advances in the democratic system, sitting governments are not the ones to perform these duties as it conflicts with their primary goal while in government - PTP has if nothing else shown exactly why reforms need to happen

I'm not sure suthep is the man to lead the charge but I do think he would lose support from the people very quickly if he didn't follow through with a proper and fair system to enact these reforms

it needs to happen if Thailand wants to move forward

[Gweiloman]

Thailand is still in the infancy when it comes to being a democratic country. Like a child, it can only learn through it's own mistakes. But it must make mistakes in order to learn. Military and judicial coups merely set back that learning process, as has been obvious here.

'must make mistakes' and 'military / judicial coups set back ...'

Somehow I would have thought you'd put the coups under same heading 'mistakes' and hopefully something gets learned from it. Mind you even Fab4 stated 'checks and balances are present and work' so maybe you should stop the unjustified voicing of 'judicial coups'.

Sorry rubl, wrong again.

18 coups or attempted coups. Mistake yes, but not the kind you learn from.

Child does something wrong. Mistake. Gets punished. Learns lesson

Child does something wrong. Does not get punished. Mistake, but by parent. No lesson learnt by child.

"Child does something wrong. Does not get punished. Mistake, but by parent." Lesson learned 'can do with impunity'

Lesson learned 'can do with impunity

Exactly. Wrong lesson isn't it? That's why I did not lump coups, military or otherwise, under mistakes. Thanks for solidifying my point.

[rubl]

'must make mistakes' and 'military / judicial coups set back ...'

Somehow I would have thought you'd put the coups under same heading 'mistakes' and hopefully something gets learned from it. Mind you even Fab4 stated 'checks and balances are present and work' so maybe you should stop the unjustified voicing of 'judicial coups'.

Sorry rubl, wrong again.

18 coups or attempted coups. Mistake yes, but not the kind you learn from.

Child does something wrong. Mistake. Gets punished. Learns lesson

Child does something wrong. Does not get punished. Mistake, but by parent. No lesson learnt by child.

"Child does something wrong. Does not get punished. Mistake, but by parent." Lesson learned 'can do with impunity'

Lesson learned 'can do with impunity

Exactly. Wrong lesson isn't it? That's why I did not lump coups, military or otherwise, under mistakes. Thanks for solidifying my point.

A wrong lesson isn't a mistake?

[Robby nz]

Would you really trust any political party once they got into power to put in place meaningful reforms that hampered their own aspirations ?

We hear over and over again on here that all parties and politicians are as bad as each other, if this is true then how can any of them be trusted ?

Even if a party has only a small majority and with a strong opposition both sides will have an agenda which they wont want derailed with any restrictions reforms may impose.

No one has come up with any firm answers as yet and far be it from me to suggest any, however if reforms are going to happen it seems to me they should be free of political interference and that would mean separate from an election process.

As reforms would likely include additional restrictions on who could become an MP then it would be preferable if they were put in place before an election for if a Govt was already in place it would be another 4 years before any new restrictions could be put in place and a lot of mischief could happen in that time.

As restrictions on who could be a MP how about, to start with :

No one who has been convicted on a criminal offense in a court of law.

Anyone on bail awaiting trial on a criminal charge should be suspended from being an MP, if found not guilty the suspension is lifted if guilty the above applies.

Anyone previously banned from politics for corruption or election fraud.

The idea being to keep the system as untainted as possible.

After all have a look at the present party lists alone and ask yourself . "Are these the sort of people you would want as role models for your kids" ?

You raise some questions which I doubt anyone can answer. Imagine if it's not Thailand that we are talking about but a more developed and civilised country. What is the route that country would take? It would either be in the parliament or in the courts right? I am very sure that what is happening now in Thailand would not happen in any Western or Central European country.

Thailand is still in the infancy when it comes to being a democratic country. Like a child, it can only learn through it's own mistakes. But it must make mistakes in order to learn. Military and judicial coups merely set back that learning process, as has been obvious here.

This is not about another country and Infancy of not there is general agreement among all including the reds that there needs to be reforms.

Not only political reforms but educational, anti corruption and Judicial among others.

You mention a judicial coup, I presume you mean the actions that are at present before various courts.

These things are all with regard to laws being broken, in this case by the PT Govt, should the verdicts be guilty then that is because they have been judged to have broken the law.

Should they be found guilty and penalties impose then it is because the law has been broken, this is justice not a judicial coup.

Calling it a judicial coup assumes that the MP's and parliament is above the law and should not be accountable for any of their actions that break the law.

There is a big difference between law makers, those elected to parliament, and law breakers who may well be the same people.

No one can be above the law, not even the judges themselves, however it is the judges job to rule on whether the laws as they stand have been broken no matter who is brought before them.

Unfortunately all to often in this country this does not happen and the rich can get away with murder, hence the need for judicial reform.

However the judges do have discretion in sentencing and can show leniency, they also may have a bias for or against someone found guilty.

In the cases now before the courts it would not be surprising if no leniency was shown towards those found guilty considering previous threats , intimidation and statements that court rulings would not be recognized.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Robby nz

[Gweiloman]

Gwellowman - the only point I would make is - how long has Thailand been a so called democracy and how well have they advanced over that time - my opinion is they have not advanced as they should have - I put this partly down to the inability to remove those convicted of miss deeds from the ministry - they keep churning in a cycle every 5 years - secondly the immunity from prosecution clause while serving in office.

Reforms are needed to get this country out of this cycle of failure after failure and allow some advances in the democratic system, sitting governments are not the ones to perform these duties as it conflicts with their primary goal while in government - PTP has if nothing else shown exactly why reforms need to happen

I'm not sure suthep is the man to lead the charge but I do think he would lose support from the people very quickly if he didn't follow through with a proper and fair system to enact these reforms

it needs to happen if Thailand wants to move forward

Smedly, thank you, and I mean this genuinely.

Thailand has been a "democratic" country since what, 1932? That's a good 81 years! And yet, like you said and I agree, they have not advanced as they should have. My conversation with rubl states my belief of what one of the reasons could be.

For the record, I believe like you do that there should be reforms. I don't think any so called "red" supporter disagrees (other than the trolls and they don't count). Where we disagree is how these reforms should come about. Reforms that come about through unconstitutional and illegal means will themselves be unconstitutional and illegal and will not have the support of the critical mass of the population.

Calling for, planning and instituting reforms does not happen overnight (or in the current timeframe, 2.5 yrs of the YL administration plus 1.5 yrs od Suthep's plan = 4 yrs). There are no shortcuts in politics, same as there are no shortcuts to success.

The one good thing that Suthep's protest has done is to awaken and give a voice to the inner feelings of those that love Thailand. Where he has failed, in my opinion, is not having prepared well enough or long enough and hoping for a first round knockout without realising that this is a 15 round bout.

[Gweiloman]

Would you really trust any political party once they got into power to put in place meaningful reforms that hampered their own aspirations ?

We hear over and over again on here that all parties and politicians are as bad as each other, if this is true then how can any of them be trusted ?

Even if a party has only a small majority and with a strong opposition both sides will have an agenda which they wont want derailed with any restrictions reforms may impose.

No one has come up with any firm answers as yet and far be it from me to suggest any, however if reforms are going to happen it seems to me they should be free of political interference and that would mean separate from an election process.

As reforms would likely include additional restrictions on who could become an MP then it would be preferable if they were put in place before an election for if a Govt was already in place it would be another 4 years before any new restrictions could be put in place and a lot of mischief could happen in that time.

As restrictions on who could be a MP how about, to start with :

No one who has been convicted on a criminal offense in a court of law.

Anyone on bail awaiting trial on a criminal charge should be suspended from being an MP, if found not guilty the suspension is lifted if guilty the above applies.

Anyone previously banned from politics for corruption or election fraud.

The idea being to keep the system as untainted as possible.

After all have a look at the present party lists alone and ask yourself . "Are these the sort of people you would want as role models for your kids" ?

You raise some questions which I doubt anyone can answer. Imagine if it's not Thailand that we are talking about but a more developed and civilised country. What is the route that country would take? It would either be in the parliament or in the courts right? I am very sure that what is happening now in Thailand would not happen in any Western or Central European country.

Thailand is still in the infancy when it comes to being a democratic country. Like a child, it can only learn through it's own mistakes. But it must make mistakes in order to learn. Military and judicial coups merely set back that learning process, as has been obvious here.

This is not about another country and Infancy of not there is general agreement among all including the reds that there needs to be reforms.

Not only political reforms but educational, anti corruption and Judicial among others.

You mention a judicial coup, I presume you mean the actions that are at present before various courts.

These things are all with regard to laws being broken, in this case by the PT Govt, should the verdicts be guilty then that is because they have been judged to have broken the law.

Should they be found guilty and penalties impose then it is because the law has been broken, this is justice not a judicial coup.

Calling it a judicial coup assumes that the MP's and parliament is above the law and should not be accountable for any of their actions that break the law.

There is a big difference between law makers, those elected to parliament, and law breakers who may well be the same people.

No one can be above the law, not even the judges themselves, however it is the judges job to rule on whether the laws as they stand have been broken no matter who is brought before them.

Unfortunately all to often in this country this does not happen and the rich can get away with murder, hence the need for judicial reform.

However the judges do have discretion in sentencing and can show leniency, they also may have a bias for or against someone found guilty.

In the cases now before the courts it would not be surprising if no leniency was shown towards those found guilty considering previous threats , intimidation and statements that court rulings would not be recognized.

I guess I have been reading too much and "influenced" by some pro-reform before election posters that the election will be annulled and that it's game over for PT.

I'm no legal expert (merely majored in commercial law and law of torts whilst at university) but I cannot see where PT has stepped foul of the law in calling for the election and the subsequent holding of polls etc. Therefore, in my limited knowledge, my view, if PT were to be removed, would be that it would be politically motivated and not in either the word of the law or the spirit of the law - in other words, a judicial coup.

With regards to the other cases brought by the NACC for eg, these are different issues. YL, if found guilty, would be impeached but PT, as a party, will still be the govt. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

[englishoak]

No im just not a fan of mob rule id do it at the polls like most normal and non obsessive countries population tends to do. Only Thailand goes through this charade every few years one way or another, you can say everyone else is wrong or you can look and think hmmm maybe its us thats got it upside down .... maybe

so don't you think something needs fixed before going through the whole thing again, it appears as you stated above having polls doesn't work here the last 50 years - perhaps reform is the best way forward not polls

I interpreted englishoak's post in a slightly different manner. In my mind, I think he means that reforms and polls are two separate issues. Reforms by all means, but do it within the confines of the law and constitution i.e. do it in parliament. But there has to be a parliament first and the only way to have this is via the polls.

Exactly that Gweiloman,

There is nothing wrong with the polls here, it is the unwillingness to let them run to term and impatience or respect for the system in place that is the problem.

To reform and have it lasting and not declared a farce later it must be done within the confines of the law and constitution by a serving parliament, the one charged by the people to do this by the electorate via the polls.

If the will of the people demands reform the serving parliament should be charged with doing so and can be judged by the electorate in future polls. This is how a democracy works. not a polit bureau or "peoples council" there can be a a council set up and charged to do this from all sides within the framework of a working government even to the point of setting up an independent organisation that puts forward these reforms, preferably by academics and those that represent all sides and some that are neutral but indeed Thailand must have a parliament and legally elected government in place to oversee these reforms.

This may take a decade and more than one government ( of whatever colour ) but this is the only way to lasting reforms imo and must be seen as a long term thing and not lose patience doing it as they usually do.

Edited February 6, 2014 by englishoak

[Gweiloman]

No im just not a fan of mob rule id do it at the polls like most normal and non obsessive countries population tends to do. Only Thailand goes through this charade every few years one way or another, you can say everyone else is wrong or you can look and think hmmm maybe its us thats got it upside down .... maybe

so don't you think something needs fixed before going through the whole thing again, it appears as you stated above having polls doesn't work here the last 50 years - perhaps reform is the best way forward not polls

I interpreted englishoak's post in a slightly different manner. In my mind, I think he means that reforms and polls are two separate issues. Reforms by all means, but do it within the confines of the law and constitution i.e. do it in parliament. But there has to be a parliament first and the only way to have this is via the polls.

Exactly that Gweiloman,

There is nothing wrong with the polls here, it is the unwillingness to let them run to term and impatience or respect for the system in place that is the problem.

To reform and have it lasting and not declared a farce later it must be done within the confines of the law and constitution by a serving parliament, the one charged by the people to do this by the electorate via the polls.

If the will of the people demands reform the serving parliament should be charged with doing so and can be judged by the electorate in future polls. This is how a democracy works. not a polit bureau or "peoples council" there can be a a council set up and charged to do this from all sides within the framework of a working government even to the point of setting up an independent organisation that puts forward these reforms, preferably by academics and those that represent all sides and some that are neutral but indeed Thailand must have a parliament and legally elected government in place to oversee these reforms.

This may take a decade and more than one government ( of whatever colour ) but this is the only way to lasting reforms imo and must be seen as a long term thing and not lose patience doing it as they usually do.

+1

I was trying to make the same point in post #57 though not as eloquently as you.