To Sin-Sot or not? What is fair to both sides?

[sirchai]

I'll bet there are far more posts from people complaining "What, another sin sod thread?" than there are with relevant/helpful/interesting information about the topic.

How hard is it to NOT read a thread that you're not interested in ?

All you have to do is not click. It isn't like you have to chase it out of your yard or anything...

A guy sits in the middle of a room with every known brand of toilet paper. There are literally thousands of brands of toilet paper in this room. Toilet paper on shelves. In boxes and hanging from the ceiling. Toilet paper on the floor and on the walls.

The door slowly opens and a small voice says, "You, you. You want some toilet paper?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/855 ... planation/

http://www.marrythailand.com/thailand-dowry.php

http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader/reader1815.htm

http://absolutelybangkok.com/sin-sod-th ... r-do-they/

http://www.thailandqa.com/forum/showthr ... ge-Sin-sod

Sad truth is that said guy took the bum gun and cleaned his arse with his hand.-

[khunPer]

Sin Sot is a negotiation between the families/parties.

Remember the “loose face” situation for the Thai (or Thai-Chinese) family, so sin sot has to be in balance with at least the Thai family status, and of course that your wife-to-be can make face.

A few real life examples from weddings I’ve bee invited to recently:

Farmer village marriage: bride 15 yo, groom late 20’ies, 120,000 baht cash + some 3 baht gold.

Farang-Thai village farmer lady, bride about 25 yo (2nd marriage, a child from first), groom about 50 yo, 300,000 baht cash + 5 baht gold + 40k diamond ring (+ new house to bride’s mum).

Thai middle class marriage: both bride and groom in their (late) 20’ies, 1,200,000 baht cash + some 5 baht gold + big diamond ring.

The other two wedding I've been to I don’t know the sin sot, but as one of them – Thai-Thai – had at least a 1,000 guest, probably 2,000 or more, I can only guess…

In general, expect to pay more as a farang than a Thai would, again a question of “family loose face” and your expected status as rich, being a farang. Some second stories talks about farangs paying several million bath in sin sot, which may be very true.

What is fair?

I think ii's a question to be discussed between you and your coming partner. There will various views about paying sin sot at all, and the amount, when asking foreigners, especially as sin sot may seem like “buying a girl/wife” from a foreigners view – or bribery as you call it. From the Thai point of view sin sot is compensation to the bride’s family – milk money – for the girls upbringing. Furthermore the groom can show that he financially can provide for a family. It’s not unusual a Thai man will send money each month to his fiancé to show he can take care of her – and sometimes gifts for an extended family – so she may expect the same from a farang, who may feel he’s being “ripped off”. May I recommend to read the book “Thailand Fever”, which both talks about sin sot and in general the cultural differences when living together with a Thai partner.

[BenCrew]

No chance of a 'money back guarantee' when / if it all goes tits up;...therefore....no payment.

[janpharma]

I got married 6 years ago...my wife has 2 children and was divorced from a Thai (as usual). The family wanted a Sin-Sot of 200.000.-THB! This is what happened:

on the day of our marriage I have put 100.000.- THB on a dish, My father inlaw (silently) added another 100.000.- THB....just for "The Show"...2 days later he came to see mee and gave back my 100.000.-THB. But nobody didn't "Loose face"...Of course I had to pay for the wedding party...about 45.000.-THB. (All villagers were invited).

[smotherb]

There are several ways to address this sin sod issue--pay something or don't. In actuality, sin sod may simply pay for the celebration party, guarantee the bride's security, pay the parents, may even be returned to the newlyweds, or all the aforementioned. I am not opposed to the celebration party, but disagree with the others.

Here are a couple of rational statements I prefer:

First, a statement of differing cultural dimensions---In my culture sin sod is not observed, instead a dowry is common; where the bride's parents transfer assets to the newlyweds. True, I am marrying a Thai, but you are marrying a falang.

Second, a bit more banal, but far too true--Paying sin sod for a daughter is too much like paying a bar fine for a whore. I love you and would not want to think of you like that.

[Jip99]

I got married 6 years ago...my wife has 2 children and was divorced from a Thai (as usual). The family wanted a Sin-Sot of 200.000.-THB! This is what happened:

on the day of our marriage I have put 100.000.- THB on a dish, My father inlaw (silently) added another 100.000.- THB....just for "The Show"...2 days later he came to see mee and gave back my 100.000.-THB. But nobody didn't "Loose face"...Of course I had to pay for the wedding party...about 45.000.-THB. (All villagers were invited).

That worked out well for you Jan - but can you actually say that you agree with the principle of sin sod ?

[tetleythedog]

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Amounts would vary on girls family status, girls virginity status, girls education, job and prospects.

For a divorced female with kids sinsod is nothing, but to make family look good, one can put up some money, just for show

For girl from prominent family with good education, good job and no previous kids or marriages, can go anywhere from 100K to Millions.

My maids son just go married, he paid 10 000 baht sin sod, married girl of same "level"

Tell her that you are a Farang, and we don't do it that way.................simple eh!

[Scarpolo]

I think I paid marriage counselors and psychologists for my wife and HER psychologically abused daughter from a madman, tens of thousands, p;us legal fees for their custody battles,

So the marriage counselors were only for her. And the psychologically abused daughter doesn't make her "Sod." Sod means fresh, as far as I know.

Nor does your statement about HER daughter does any good for you, or your wife. You know that she is not your daugher and I hope that she'll have a father as well. But a father who loves her, is what kids need. Not between a madman, and now you.

The Sin Sod in most cases is only to show the guests what the guy puts on the table. You'll get it back.

Please try to stay calm, or you'll be the next madman.You might think again, if you really want to get married, as so many people believe that a piece of paper is creating a better relationship. It doesn't. Good luck from an already 12 years happily married guy from Sisaket.-

She is now 21 and both a groupie and a porn movie "participant" with tattooes all over her...

no thanks, I tried and received only canceled checks for my efforts and still dealing with a 2 year divorce "process"

kind of like the "peace process"

[ggt]

How does one determine the fair market value of another human being...perhaps...age, children or not, previous marriages, beauty...social status, education, and so on...If you are in the market to purchase a human...then use the same criteria you would use to purchase a good horse, cow, or buffalo...

[thrilled]

The way that I have always understood it is.If she and her husband are young,no kids,never married,maybe A virgin,she comes from A well to do family,9 out of 10,the man will have to get off some serious jack.If the family isn't well off just so so then the groom should not have to give nearly as much.

If the bride really loves her husband ,then the dowry ,sin sod will be split between them.

I believe that if she has been married before,has kids the dowry ,sin sod will be considerably less.

If you have A good woman,she will give you the money back,or put it in A joint account or whatever.Much f it is only for show,displayed at the wedding etc. these are only my beliefs as I understand it.

[slipperylobster]

Nothing to do with face, as they are laughing at your gullibility about this tradition. Happens every time I sit around and listen to how this farang or that one gave one or two million for the old gal (or even bar hooker) that nobody else wanted..and now she is hosting all her ex boyfriends in the new home while the silly farang is trying to make more money back in his country. They have face....and yours is disgraced.

[jeffdunnjob]

I am married a long time to Thai wife with children together. If all they want is 30,000 baht, pay it. It is a tradition of theirs and you will want her to also follow some of your traditions. The best guide I ever heard was 3 years of her lost earnings. That seems fair and is probably a lot more than 30,000 baht. 200,000 baht and 5 baht (one ounce) of gold is common, plus wedding costs. Although I have friends who have given a lot more, and some who gave a lot less. The more money it looks like at the wedding ceremony, the more jealous everyone in her village will be, and the better your wife and her mother will feel. It is like the expression of outdoing the Joneses in America. One person will hold a party or buy something, then the next person always spends more, then the person after that spends more, always outdoing the person before them. I think showing off what you can and competition is common in many cultures.

[Lockheed]

Nothing to do with face, as they are laughing at your gullibility about this tradition. Happens every time I sit around and listen to how this farang or that one gave one or two million for the old gal (or even bar hooker) that nobody else wanted..and now she is hosting all her ex boyfriends in the new home while the silly farang is trying to make more money back in his country. They have face....and yours is disgraced.

Its the Prince, Pauper scenario, if you act like a prince and most westerners do, then you'll be paying a kings ransom.

I've developed a pauper like persona when overseas, so the girls give me a sidewards glance as they pass by, seeking out the princes.

From my perspective, the girls are pretty thin on the ground so I wonder how much Sin-Sot, I'll be paying when or if, I ever meet the right girl.

[12DrinkMore]

The wheels just keep on turning ....

I wish this son sot wheel would stop turning.

Very boring.

[12DrinkMore]

I am married a long time to Thai wife with children together. If all they want is 30,000 baht, pay it. It is a tradition of theirs and you will want her to also follow some of your traditions. The best guide I ever heard was 3 years of her lost earnings. That seems fair and is probably a lot more than 30,000 baht. 200,000 baht and 5 baht (one ounce) of gold is common, plus wedding costs. Although I have friends who have given a lot more, and some who gave a lot less. The more money it looks like at the wedding ceremony, the more jealous everyone in her village will be, and the better your wife and her mother will feel. It is like the expression of outdoing the Joneses in America. One person will hold a party or buy something, then the next person always spends more, then the person after that spends more, always outdoing the person before them. I think showing off what you can and competition is common in many cultures.

Yeah,

Outdoing the neighbours, getting then all jealous and the next clown has to pay even more.

Utter bullshit.

That road leads to nowhere except misery for all.

"we all want this"

"we all need that"

Tell the family you are a devout Buddhist and that you see greed and wanting stuff is against your religion.

May not go down well, but they cannot argue the premise against their own religion, can they?

[Gary999]

A sin sod is part of Thai culture and one should respect this. The amount comes down to what is considered reasonable to achieve common aims. If you realise and accept this it should earn you more in the end.

Not correct. Sinsod originated in China and was later copied by the Thais, as it is especially useful when a 'falang' comes along. Just another way of milking falang dry 555.

[shaurene]

I am married, i. Meet my wife 6 yrs ago she was 38 married before had 3 children 11, 14, 22. My personal beliefs at the time was no but she from village outside Khon Kaen it is very strong on this matter. I discussed with my G/F and it has a lot to do with saving face and the Mamma impressing the village. I ended up doing a deal to put 400k and some gold in the pot. At first it was a village marriage and the funds are given to the head man who shows the invited villagers and puts it into a large bowl, I did the deal that I get it back next day which I did every single Bhart, part of the deal was that I look after Mamma which we do, give Mamma couple thou a month, pay her power and other small things like buying some food for her etc.

We then got married at the official register office.

We have just negotiated her daughters promised marriage, all our family and the boy friends family they offered 100k I stayed out side my wife kept coming out with the news. She asked my what I thought I said no way 500k she went back in and kept coming out with the up dates then asked me to come in, I did and I started the serious negotiations through my wife we ended going with 300k, every one happy, all shaking my hand.

Other young girl here not living with parents got 10k from the boy friend.

It is all different price ranges.

[thailiketoo]

A sin sod is part of Thai culture and one should respect this. The amount comes down to what is considered reasonable to achieve common aims. If you realise and accept this it should earn you more in the end.

Not correct. Sinsod originated in China and was later copied by the Thais, as it is especially useful when a 'falang' comes along. Just another way of milking falang dry 555.

Nah, its from Ireland. Except the Thais got it mixed up and the wife gets money instead of giving it.

[F4UCorsair]

This isn't a sin sot story, but there are similarities, what is expected from a foreigner versus a local.

More than ten years ago I bought a piece of land in Bali, absolute lakefront, and high above the water, one of only two such blocks of land in Bali, both on Lake Bratan, Jalan Mawar. I intended building 5 villas, beautiful architecture, superb views, maximum year round temperature of about 23. I would have employed six or seven people, housekeepers, gardeners, security people, and a chef.

The people in the village (Kembang Merta), actually the village head man, asked that I build a stone wall along the lake front to stop erosion in the wet season, nothing too flash, just stones in wire baskets, the type of walling that is very trendy currently, only about a meter high, and the cost about A$2000.00, and even that was a foreigner's price.

Over the next few months that evolved to a laid stone wall, over a meter wide at the base, foundations over a meter into the mud, 5 meters high at the highest point, half a meter wide at the top, and costing A$25,000.00.

There were other demands, so I sold the land and told them to shove it.

10+ years later, with a local owning it all that time, there is no laid stone wall, not even a stone basket type wall to stop erosion. There is no erosion. There are no jobs associated with the land, no development at all.

End of story.

Don't be taken for a sucker just because your eyes aren't the same, or your skin not a beautiful tan.

[F4UCorsair]

I am married, i. Meet my wife 6 yrs ago she was 38 married before had 3 children 11, 14, 22. My personal beliefs at the time was no but she from village outside Khon Kaen it is very strong on this matter. I discussed with my G/F and it has a lot to do with saving face and the Mamma impressing the village. I ended up doing a deal to put 400k and some gold in the pot. At first it was a village marriage and the funds are given to the head man who shows the invited villagers and puts it into a large bowl, I did the deal that I get it back next day which I did every single Bhart, part of the deal was that I look after Mamma which we do, give Mamma couple thou a month, pay her power and other small things like buying some food for her etc.

We then got married at the official register office.

We have just negotiated her daughters promised marriage, all our family and the boy friends family they offered 100k I stayed out side my wife kept coming out with the news. She asked my what I thought I said no way 500k she went back in and kept coming out with the up dates then asked me to come in, I did and I started the serious negotiations through my wife we ended going with 300k, every one happy, all shaking my hand.

Other young girl here not living with parents got 10k from the boy friend.

It is all different price ranges.

You are paying sin sot, albeit incrementally, keeping the old lady.

Who would fall for that in their home country??

Ten grand ($$) for a woman......nuts!!

[thailiketoo]

You are paying sin sot, albeit incrementally, keeping the old lady.

Who would fall for that in their home country??

Ten grand ($$) for a woman......nuts!!

The tradition in my home country is a dowry, that is, the bride bringing land into the marriage. I insisted on that when I got married in my home country. Why not?

[Jip99]

I am married, i. Meet my wife 6 yrs ago she was 38 married before had 3 children 11, 14, 22. My personal beliefs at the time was no but she from village outside Khon Kaen it is very strong on this matter. I discussed with my G/F and it has a lot to do with saving face and the Mamma impressing the village. I ended up doing a deal to put 400k and some gold in the pot. At first it was a village marriage and the funds are given to the head man who shows the invited villagers and puts it into a large bowl, I did the deal that I get it back next day which I did every single Bhart, part of the deal was that I look after Mamma which we do, give Mamma couple thou a month, pay her power and other small things like buying some food for her etc.

We then got married at the official register office.

We have just negotiated her daughters promised marriage, all our family and the boy friends family they offered 100k I stayed out side my wife kept coming out with the news. She asked my what I thought I said no way 500k she went back in and kept coming out with the up dates then asked me to come in, I did and I started the serious negotiations through my wife we ended going with 300k, every one happy, all shaking my hand.

Other young girl here not living with parents got 10k from the boy friend.

It is all different price ranges.

So you have allowed your step-daughter to enter married life with a huge debt millstone around her neck. You think the boyfriend or his family have 300k Baht in cash ?

Boy: “If I gave you 500k Baht, would you sleep with me?”

Girl: “500k Baht is a lot of money, and you don’t look that bad, so I guess I would consider it”

Boy: “OK, since I don’t have 500k Baht, would you sleep with me for 100k?”

Girl: (outraged) “What do you think I am, some kind of cheap whore?”

Boy: “We’ve already established WHAT you are, now we are just negotiating the price”

[Ghostnigel]

There is like 327 Sin Sot topics now open on Thai Visa as I write. Why would anyone want to open another? Can't you use the search button? Why OH Why would anyone want another Sin Sot thread? Isn't there a pinned sin sot somewhere?

Here is what you do. Go to the upper right and type in Sin Sot and then you get 15 pages of sin sot topics back in a fraction of a second. Talk about high tech. It is a sin sot's lover's paradise.

Are you being held to gunpoint to read this thread?...no, i thought not, if you are bored with it, do something else..!!

[thailiketoo]

There is like 327 Sin Sot topics now open on Thai Visa as I write. Why would anyone want to open another? Can't you use the search button? Why OH Why would anyone want another Sin Sot thread? Isn't there a pinned sin sot somewhere?

Here is what you do. Go to the upper right and type in Sin Sot and then you get 15 pages of sin sot topics back in a fraction of a second. Talk about high tech. It is a sin sot's lover's paradise.

Are you being held to gunpoint to read this thread?...no, i thought not, if you are bored with it, do something else..!!

Waste of bandwidth to discuss something that has been discussed 10,000 times on Thai Visa. The OP does not want any information he isn't even contemplating marriage.

[phil2]

I am married, i. Meet my wife 6 yrs ago she was 38 married before had 3 children 11, 14, 22. My personal beliefs at the time was no but she from village outside Khon Kaen it is very strong on this matter. I discussed with my G/F and it has a lot to do with saving face and the Mamma impressing the village. I ended up doing a deal to put 400k and some gold in the pot. At first it was a village marriage and the funds are given to the head man who shows the invited villagers and puts it into a large bowl, I did the deal that I get it back next day which I did every single Bhart, part of the deal was that I look after Mamma which we do, give Mamma couple thou a month, pay her power and other small things like buying some food for her etc.

We then got married at the official register office.

We have just negotiated her daughters promised marriage, all our family and the boy friends family they offered 100k I stayed out side my wife kept coming out with the news. She asked my what I thought I said no way 500k she went back in and kept coming out with the up dates then asked me to come in, I did and I started the serious negotiations through my wife we ended going with 300k, every one happy, all shaking my hand.

Other young girl here not living with parents got 10k from the boy friend.

It is all different price ranges.

You are paying sin sot, albeit incrementally, keeping the old lady.

Who would fall for that in their home country??

Ten grand ($$) for a woman......nuts!!

Very correct. That was exactly how we agreed that mine should be paid because I refused to shell out 100k.

Lesson learned.

[slipperylobster]

Ok, I was trying how to be politically correct when dealing with this subject.

I have come up with a good, viable, no b.s. solution for this cultural stumbling block to a happy marriage.

What I do know, most farangs will pay heavily for the divorce afterwards anyways...

so what about securing the Sin Sot in her name in "Trust". The money would be hers in the event of a Divorce, with no further requirements given...signed and dated...and filed/notarized. But forfeited upon death of husband.

Then just present the Account with applicable value, to the family at the Wedding. Why carry cash?

Makes everything clear....no squabbles....and the inevitable divorce is prepaid.

[MobileContent]

A 20 year old girl in our marriage just married last week with a SS of 40,000 Baht. Two days ago she dumped the guy.

Three days ago our neighbour dumped her hubby for the past 9 years because her parents told her to do because he is a Cheap Charley, selling sandwiches.

She is now on Thai Love Links and dreaming to finally own a house. Yesterday she came once again to our house and asked my Mrs for advise as their are three farangs ready to fly down to meet her parents. She is asking for 500k, have a nine year old son and she gambles daily.

[BigRick]

I paid 30k baht my wife is educated comes from a solid middle class family never had any kids and never married. The family was fine with it as long as their daughter is happy. I explained getting a chance to be an American is worth far more than making a bunch of Thai yokels happy at a party(The extended family that always shows up when someone is giving away free stuff). She is under 30 not a stunner but attractive. We dated and lived together almost 4 years and filling out that paperwork did not change anything. Her parents were even nice enough to give her a 150k baht to season for the visa process. She owns far more land than I do(I own zero) has a so so job (only about 15k a month) and is one heck of a decent human being. She does not smoke,Does not gamble, Drinks about twice a year(passes out after 3 beers a total light weight) no tattoos and never worked in any kind of entertainment industry. I never even liked the idea of marriage to any woman until I stayed with her long enough to see all the flaws and realized they are totally acceptable. We agreed not to have children I also have an agreement any family financial problems are not my problems. Once we get stateside after the bills are paid she can do whatever she wants with her money. I hear all these horror stories and personally seen more than a few but not every Thai woman is like that. Rule number # 1 Don't marry a bar girl # 2 Don't marry a bar girl # 3 Don't marry a bar girl follow those 3 steps and you should be golden.

[moto77]

The problem with the question is that you will get the same blinkered nonsense from the same people who wholly believe in what they post, but have no real grasp of the intricacies of each individual situation.

I know of one recent marriage, both Thai, the lady previously married with a child and sinsot and Gold were paid.

So there you go, two responses, two wholly differing answers.

Each situation is different, it is the point of view and knowledge of posters that will matter.

Good Luck with this one, it will run to pages and you will very little valuable data from it.

TRADITIONALLY if the woman was not a VIRGIN then there was no bride price. Well, no one is a virgin anymore, so it evolved to: "if she was not married before and did not have kids then you paid, if she was or did, you didn't pay." More recently, even women with kids are getting a bride price in some cases, though I think you could push back against this pretty easily if you wanted to.

[Scarpolo]

I am married a long time to Thai wife with children together. If all they want is 30,000 baht, pay it. It is a tradition of theirs and you will want her to also follow some of your traditions. The best guide I ever heard was 3 years of her lost earnings. That seems fair and is probably a lot more than 30,000 baht. 200,000 baht and 5 baht (one ounce) of gold is common, plus wedding costs. Although I have friends who have given a lot more, and some who gave a lot less. The more money it looks like at the wedding ceremony, the more jealous everyone in her village will be, and the better your wife and her mother will feel. It is like the expression of outdoing the Joneses in America. One person will hold a party or buy something, then the next person always spends more, then the person after that spends more, always outdoing the person before them. I think showing off what you can and competition is common in many cultures.

one ounce of gold is USD$1370 that is a lot more than 5 baht