Aged Pensioner declared bankrupt in Thailand. What implications?

[bapak]

A friend of mine here on a Retirement Visa...Has no assets apart from his aged pension. Has just been declared bankrupt by at Thai Court.

What are the implications on his stay in Thailand?

[uptheos]

Did he blow the 800,000 or did the 65,000 a month just dry up?

Edited March 12, 2014 by Maestro
Removed off-topic part of post

[bapak]

Son in Law. put up the 800,000, which was returned to him after the visa issue. Next renewal in is 9 months.

[SheungWan]

What are his liabilities under the terms of the bankruptcy?

Edited March 11, 2014 by SheungWan

[robertthebruce]

How sad, poor guy.....

hope he can work something out, i am sure he does not want to leave....

[cassde]

The original question, what are the implications for the bankruptee when made bankrupt, has not been answered. In Thailand is it like the UK, in some cases, when the bankrupt can be discharged after 12 months or does that not apply here.

[AyG]

<snip> One can only be declared bankrupt if owing more than 1 million Baht to a single entity.

From the Tilleke & Gibbins website:

"The debtor may submit an application by way of a motion to the Court asking for an order of discharge from bankruptcy. The discharge will be granted if at least 50% of the assets have been paid to creditors and the bankrupt is not a dishonest person."

Assuming no prior bankruptcy or dishonesty:

"An individual... may also be discharged from bankruptcy based on the tolling of automatic discharge periods which start running as of the date a debtor is adjudged bankrupt. A bankrupt will be automatically discharged after three years."

Further details at http://www.tilleke.com/sites/default/files/Bankrutpcy-Law-in-Thailand.pdf

Edited March 12, 2014 by Maestro
Removed off-topic part of post

[jayceenik]

I don't understand the OP post...

The pensioner had the (loaned) 800k in the bank and got his visa extension.

Visa renewable in 9 months.

Immigration doesn't know the 800k was returned to son-in-law.

Has a (small) pension to live on.

Why was he declared bankrupt by a Thai Court ?

A business gone bad ?

[jacko45k]

I don't understand the OP post...

The pensioner had the (loaned) 800k in the bank and got his visa extension.

Visa renewable in 9 months.

Immigration doesn't know the 800k was returned to son-in-law.

Has a (small) pension to live on.

Why was he declared bankrupt by a Thai Court ?

A business gone bad ?

You have to presume he owes someone money and they have filed complaint.

Declaring oneself bankrupt gives you some protection from creditors and places restrictions on you.

It all sounds rather sad.

[AyG]

Declaring oneself bankrupt gives you some protection from creditors and places restrictions on you.

In Thailand bankruptcy can't be a voluntary act - you simply can't declare yourself bankrupt.

[MMarlow]

Declaring oneself bankrupt gives you some protection from creditors and places restrictions on you.

In Thailand bankruptcy can't be a voluntary act - you simply can't declare yourself bankrupt.

In which country can it be a voluntary act? It's always a court's decision, not an individual's.

[AyG]

Declaring oneself bankrupt gives you some protection from creditors and places restrictions on you.

In Thailand bankruptcy can't be a voluntary act - you simply can't declare yourself bankrupt.

In which country can it be a voluntary act? It's always a court's decision, not an individual's.

Putting it differently: in Thailand an individual can't apply to be declared bankrupt.

[Langsuan Man]

Aged Pensioner declared bankrupt in Thailand. What implications?

No implications so long as he is able to prove to Immigration that he has the required money in the bank or enough pension money coming in to satisfy the 65,000 THB per month requirement

The rules doesn't say what the money is to be used for, just that you receive it. If used to pay off an existing debt Immigration could care less

[Arkady]

The National Police Announcement on visa regulations doesn't bar bankrupts from being issued retirement visa extensions. As long as Immigration sees that B800k in the bank account seasoned for 3 months, there is no reason not to issue the visa.

However, the creditors may be able to get a court order to seize the B800k from his bank account during the seasoning period.

[cassde]

Re MMarlow's question, in the Uk you can declare yourself bankrupt so long as you pay a fee of £600

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[JustinCredible]

Without knowing more "facts" it is very difficult to comment. However, it is possible that the Courts have also banned "Exit" from LoS until the debt has been discharged. They do not need to hold your Passport to do that, but exit attempts can be refused at the point of exit.

JC

[uptheos]

I think worrying about bankruptcy is the last thing on immigration's mind.

All they care about is on the day do you have a valid visa, the required funds and a letter from the bank.

If all that's in order......see you next year.

[Muhendis]

The original question, what are the implications for the bankruptee when made bankrupt, has not been answered. In Thailand is it like the UK, in some cases, when the bankrupt can be discharged after 12 months or does that not apply here.

Agreed about the discharge part but the bankrupt person will always be liable for any outstanding debts after any assets have been sold and should he/she come into any money then they can be pursued for full settlement of any outstanding liabilities. I think that debt has a life of 25 years after which it is written off.

My guess is that if the bankrupt person were to leave the country it would be difficult for the debtors to pursue any claim.

[FiftyTwo]

To answer the Ops post,

Bankruptcy in Thailand has several issues which I can explain (as I know someone who has been through it).

1. There is no way they can enforce repayment of the debt, really no chasing as some have suggested.

2. The contents of any Bank account in the debtor's name may be seized (so don't risk 800k in one again).

3. Any motor vehicles registered in the debtor's name may be taken and sold.

4. Any property in the debtor's name may be taken and sold.

5. After 10 years the debt is written off and no further action may be taken.

6. No restrictions on entering or leaving Thailand (above and beyond).

Many Thais find themselves in this situation, after failing to make payments on a car/bike loan, etc.

They don't seem to consider it a big deal as they merely transfer all assets into a family member's name for 10 years.

The only real negative for a foreigner is you can't risk putting 800k in a bank account in Thailand, as there is a risk of losing it.

No real problem still operating a bank account in Thailand, just don't keep more than a few thousand Baht in it for day to day use.

The only direct action taken against the person I knew was a letter sent to their registered address, once every year for 10 years.

They now has a home loan, motorcycle, bank account in their own name with no problems.

Home loan application, no problem, applied for and granted 6 months after the 10 years lapsed.

May I repeat, debt gone after 10 years. (not 1 year, not 25 years, not 50 years)

Edited March 12, 2014 by FiftyTwo

[Mario2008]

1 post about what a politician deserves removed.

[simple1]

To answer the Ops post,

Bankruptcy in Thailand has several issues which I can explain (as I know someone who has been through it).

1. There is no way they can enforce repayment of the debt, really no chasing as some have suggested.

2. The contents of any Bank account in the debtor's name may be seized (so don't risk 800k in one again).

3. Any motor vehicles registered in the debtor's name may be taken and sold.

4. Any property in the debtor's name may be taken and sold.

5. After 10 years the debt is written off and no further action may be taken.

6. No restrictions on entering or leaving Thailand (above and beyond).

Many Thais find themselves in this situation, after failing to make payments on a car/bike loan, etc.

They don't seem to consider it a big deal as they merely transfer all assets into a family member's name for 10 years.

The only real negative for a foreigner is you can't risk putting 800k in a bank account in Thailand, as there is a risk of losing it.

No real problem still operating a bank account in Thailand, just don't keep more than a few thousand Baht in it for day to day use.

The only direct action taken against the person I knew was a letter sent to their registered address, once every year for 10 years.

They now has a home loan, motorcycle, bank account in their own name with no problems.

Home loan application, no problem, applied for and granted 6 months after the 10 years lapsed.

May I repeat, debt gone after 10 years. (not 1 year, not 25 years, not 50 years)

It appears your friend was determined by court order to be a "dishonest bankrupt". Usually an individual who is adjudged to be a bankrupt shall receive a discharge within three years following his adjudication in bankruptcy, info from:

http://www.abiworld.org/committees/newsletters/international/vol1num3/Article3.html

[slipperylobster]

Missed reading what country he hailed from. I was told Americans just needed a Notarized Certification of Income for the Retirement Extension, and no money required in the bank.

[FiftyTwo]

To answer the Ops post,

Bankruptcy in Thailand has several issues which I can explain (as I know someone who has been through it).

1. There is no way they can enforce repayment of the debt, really no chasing as some have suggested.

2. The contents of any Bank account in the debtor's name may be seized (so don't risk 800k in one again).

3. Any motor vehicles registered in the debtor's name may be taken and sold.

4. Any property in the debtor's name may be taken and sold.

5. After 10 years the debt is written off and no further action may be taken.

6. No restrictions on entering or leaving Thailand (above and beyond).

Many Thais find themselves in this situation, after failing to make payments on a car/bike loan, etc.

They don't seem to consider it a big deal as they merely transfer all assets into a family member's name for 10 years.

The only real negative for a foreigner is you can't risk putting 800k in a bank account in Thailand, as there is a risk of losing it.

No real problem still operating a bank account in Thailand, just don't keep more than a few thousand Baht in it for day to day use.

The only direct action taken against the person I knew was a letter sent to their registered address, once every year for 10 years.

They now has a home loan, motorcycle, bank account in their own name with no problems.

Home loan application, no problem, applied for and granted 6 months after the 10 years lapsed.

May I repeat, debt gone after 10 years. (not 1 year, not 25 years, not 50 years)

It appears your friend was determined by court order to be a "dishonest bankrupt". Usually an individual who is adjudged to be a bankrupt shall receive a discharge within three years following his adjudication in bankruptcy, info from:

http://www.abiworld.org/committees/newsletters/international/vol1num3/Article3.html

Person I know was discharged in 2013, so declared in 2003, looks like they changed the law after in 2004.

[humqdpf]

Declaring oneself bankrupt gives you some protection from creditors and places restrictions on you.

In Thailand bankruptcy can't be a voluntary act - you simply can't declare yourself bankrupt.

Having oneself declared bankrupt means going through a legal procedure which in most countries involves a court appearance. At least in some countries, this can result from the acts of claimants and sometimes it can be at the initiative of the indiviual him or herself (that is what is meant by "declaring oneself bankrupt" or if you want to be wordy "having oneself declared bankrupt.")

The process usually involves a division of assets and cash (if any) among claimants. That includes all vehicles and the TV, stereo, jewelry. But once achieved, bankruptcy provides protection against past claims. But the process and the aftermath is not easy - restrictions on bank accounts and even cheque books or bank cards etc.

[RedQualia]

I can't speak to the matter of bankruptcy in Thailand at all. However, said pensioner apparently has a son-in-law who cares enough about him to help him (loaning him 800,000 Baht). I do not know if the son-in-law is Thai, but it seems possible. The existence of the "son-in-law" also implies the existence of a daughter.

There is a category of visa/extension for being a family member of a Thai national. Actually, I believe that a dependent parent may be permitted to stay as a dependent, whether the family member is Thai or not. Pursuing such a visa may be a better choice than the son-in-law perpetually loaning the pensioner 800,000 Baht.

A thaivisa page discussing the matter: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/457542-visa-for-elderly-dependent-parent/

Note the link within to: http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/doc/temporarystay/policy777-2551_en.pdf

[Maestro]

I removed some off-topic posts and the replies to them.

[ableguy]

One has to understand it takes money to live your dream retirement, if you do not have it you do not get it.

This is a sad fact of life but reality. Hope this guy makes out but suspect it will not be here.

[ableguy]

Missed reading what country he hailed from. I was told Americans just needed a Notarized Certification of Income for the Retirement Extension, and no money required in the bank.

This applies to any country if the income is 65'000 per month and verifiable.

[Beetlejuice]

If the guy is unable to stay in Thailand as imposed by the requirements of the Immigration Department, than he has to leave the Kingdom within 7 days as per stated on the visa stamp in his passport.

Sorry, there are no ifs, buts or maybes about it, there are no exceptions to the rule.

It appears to me that in the case of going or being taken to court for bankruptcy means that this guy probably owes money to someone or a company. He perhaps borrowed money fully knowing he could not pay his debts or through recklessness. Could be a matter of over drawing at a bank, borrowing money from people, or a failed business venture, the implications being he could go to prison, depending on how much money is involved and who he owes it to? To the OP; am I getting warm?

If this is not OP but an alleged friend, than my advice is don`t get involved. Plenty of losers like this in Thailand that should be avoided.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Beetlejuice

[bapak]

I can't speak to the matter of bankruptcy in Thailand at all. However, said pensioner apparently has a son-in-law who cares enough about him to help him (loaning him 800,000 Baht). I do not know if the son-in-law is Thai, but it seems possible. The existence of the "son-in-law" also implies the existence of a daughter.

There is a category of visa/extension for being a family member of a Thai national. Actually, I believe that a dependent parent may be permitted to stay as a dependent, whether the family member is Thai or not. Pursuing such a visa may be a better choice than the son-in-law perpetually loaning the pensioner 800,000 Baht.

A thaivisa page discussing the matter: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/457542-visa-for-elderly-dependent-parent/

Note the link within to: http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/doc/temporarystay/policy777-2551_en.pdf

As stated earlier, the involvement was my friend acted as a guarantor to a bank loan for his friend. The guy defaulted and has since returned to New Zealand.