Leaving Thailand for China, here is why

[stopthegreed]

Having lived in Thailand since 1992, I feel well qualified to reply to this post.

I have read through it and digested it with interest, and I find it very difficult to pick holes in it.

In the main it is all true.

When I cam here, the ordinary people were very poor, everything was cheap, and therefore the ladies were cheap. They would come from the sugar plantations and rice fields, and to earn 500 or 1000 baht a day was a dream

Now they still come from these places, but thanks to the stupidity of the foriegners, within six months or so, they are walking around like super models, dripping with gold, Iphones, and driving new cars. This is all down to the expat communities and holiday makers.

Yet, these people dont realy want us here, they would much prefer it if we all left tomorrow.

But they know with that, the superstar lifestyle, the gold, houses and cars would go also.

So they tolerate us at best.

Go to a national park for example, why should a foreigner pay twice as much as a Thai to enter ??

Give a tip and you dont even get a thank you. Its expected.

Most of the Thai ladies who have an expat boyfriend / husband have Thai boyfriends, and are funding them with the Farangs money.

I have also given a lot of thought to leaving Thailand, perhaps the Philippines. And my patience with all of this is wearing very thin indeed.

I think a lot of Farangs feel the same, but are in thier comfort zone, and are actually scared or too old to make that leap.

In the main, I agree with everything in this post. So I wish you good luck

[Just1Voice]

The OP make some good, valid points, but my personal opinion is that they really only apply to him in general. My read is that he never really got outside of BKK and found Thailand, and mistook BKK as being Thailand.

I've been coming here off and on since the Vietnam war, when I made my first visit. Over the years I've seen massive changes in the country and the people. Some good, some not. When it came time for me to retire, I spent a lot of time considering where I wanted to be, and Thailand kept coming to the top of my list. I did my research, both financially and in other ways, and the finally decided on Chiang Mai, definitely deciding to avoid the "over populated with farang" places such as Phukett, Pattaya and BKK. Life in the north is much quieter, much more acceptable to my particular lifestyle.

I admit that life here at times can be somewhat frustrating with the Thai 'attitudes', but I take it with a grain of salt and deal with it. Because life here is much less expensive, I enjoy a greater degree of "comfort" than I could back in the USA living on a fixed income which, to most Thai, makes me a "rich man", which I find humorous. I have a nice home, car, and Thai wife only 10 years younger than I am. We do not always see things "eye to eye", but that is mainly due to cultural differences.

One of my joys is getting on my bike (CBR 250) and just traveling around the North & Northeastern parts of Thailand, visiting different cities and meeting different people. Unfortunately, due to a stroke, that has been curtailed for a while, but I'll get back to it in a couple of months. Throughout my travels to most major cities up here, I've encountered nothing but friendliness from the people.

By no means is Thailand a "paradise", but for me, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. But I also realize that not everyone shares my views, and that each person has to find what is best for them. Good luck to the OP and I hope he finds what he's looking for, but I have a sneaky suspicion that no place will ever be "right" for him, and that greener pastures are always someplace else.

[JLCrab]

Just a note to Cosmo #116 -- I was in Beijing and elsewhere in PRChina shortly after the June 1989 Tiananmen Square disaster. They would comment to me personally about the USA's criticism on the democracy movement and say " Who are you to judge? You killed all those (Native American) Indians? I would say something like that was over 100 years ago. They responded So what is 100 years? We've been around for 5 thousand years.

[amse]

Have fun trying to avoid all the spit on the sidewalks, bus floors & etc., YIPES!

Edited March 31, 2014 by metisdead
Bold font removed, please do not make it a habit to post in bold fonts.

[asiacanuck]

I, too, have only made a couple of earlier postings but had to chime in on this one. After only living here full-time for a few months, I don't really feel that anything I have to say is going to have much credibility compared to those that have been around for decades with thousands of postings! And there is not much point in responding to all the whiners…maybe I'll feel the same way in another year or two!

My wife and I lived and worked in China for the last six years (no, I did not teach English and have no desire to teach English here!) before I retired to Chiangmai last summer. I guess I am not the typical expat, although I can't say I really know because I have yet to talk to any other foreigners except briefly in passing. My wife is twenty years younger than me but is American, not Thai. I haven't been to a bar here yet and have no interest in running off with any local women. My better half has already told me she will go one step further than Ms. Bobbitt and use a meat grinder if I even think about it! Our own interests have kept us busy 24/7 since we arrived here nine months ago. Anyway, enough introduction.

I have to say that China is a great place these days if you can deal with the pollution. We loved the people, the cities (other than Beijing and Shanghai), and the food. But six years was long enough. If it wasn't for the language and the pollution, we would have thought about retiring there. There are many beautiful, unpolluted areas of the country and the cost of living can be very similar to here for similar types of areas. We did make many good Chinese friends but it does certainly take time to get to that point. But the language was a real stickler and I just didn't have the energy or staying power to memorize God knows how many thousands of characters. The daily pollution we dealt with makes Chiangmai seem pristine on a bad day. And driving here in Thailand is so much easier than there, although I did love driving my big motorcycle in China! At least the vehicles and city buses don't drive on the sidewalks in Chiangmai at rush hour. Anyone who has not lived there within the last five years has no idea what is happening in that country. It continued to rapidly change from the time we arrived until the day we left six years later.

I would encourage any young person with ambition and energy to try China for a bit. There are many opportunities available once you get out of the main tourist cities such as Beijing and Shanghai. Despite all the crap propaganda you read, the economy is booming. The place is exploding like nowhere else in the world. The infrastructure has surpassed most developed western nations and despite all the doom and gloom reports you read in the western media, there is no end in sight. You just need to look around you to see the increase in Chinese tourists, even if they don't spend big bucks here. I never spend big money when I travel either! It was an incredibly exciting place to live for six years. Once you get out of the tourist areas, you would be hard-pressed to find a nicer, harder working group of people. Like anywhere else in the world, large tourist centres such as Beijing and Shanghai prey on the naiveté of foreigners. Our six years of big city life (over 10 million) in the middle of China more than trained us for dealing with the wheelers and dealers around this country!

My 30 year old son quit his job in Canada a few years ago to travel and ended up visiting us in China three years ago. He got a job in Changsha teaching English and opened a small bar/deli earlier this year in the same city. Within six months, they had earned back their original investment and he is busy every night. As he said, it is not going to make him rich, but he is learning many valuable skills on running his own business, making connections, ordering supplies, etc. He has always wanted to have his own business and never would have been able to do this in North America for the small initial investment and minimal paperwork it took in China. He loves it there and has no intention of leaving in the near future.

So I say to the OP, go for it. There are tons of opportunities. If you need to teach English for a bit just to get your foot into the country, so be it. It can open many doors for you if you cannot find something right away. We had foreign friends working in business who did not speak Mandarin. They were working in such diverse fields as the film industry, cement production, technology, university education, restaurants, website development, you name it. The country is starving for western culture and willing to spend money on it. For a young foreigner, there are few better places in the world to be right now, despite the opinions from all the naysayers. You just might have to make your own future, but it is certainly yours to be made if you have the education, ideas and ambition. Don't necessarily rely on the businesses there, start your own. Thailand suits me just fine as a retired person escaping the cold weather and high cost of living of North America, but I never would have moved here for employment or business purposes.

[Cosmo88]

.and the ways Thai's look at many foreigners have to do to some extend also with the behaviour of those same foreigners...

This is a good point.

If anything, it's amazing that the Thais don't look down on foreigners more than they actually do...

[Wombat6]

Don't need to read the novel to know if you can then all the better. China has extensive international business, an absolutely beautiful country, excellent food & among the most beautiful women in the world. Forever love China...except their exported electronics, clothing, etc., exports asides, an excellent choice for life.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Yes, they probably have the best Smog also

[flyingdoc]

Good luck in China. They deserve you more than Thailand!

[gopis108]

good for you mate=I agree wholeheartedly with your opinions.

[rucus7]

This is where the real China headed in the very near future. www.nytimes.com/.../chinese-workers-at-i.. 1.3 billion people with one billion below the poverty level.

[Skeetjones]

Good riddance.

1. No ones going to miss your 50+ year old complaining ass.

2. Your moving to china because you knows the Thai people are on to the foreigners game. And now want to run somewhere else where they are more clueless and accepting.

3. Why shouldn't the cost of living go up? You have no problem making a ton of money where you come from, but complain when spending it on Thai products and feeding Thai family's with that money.

4. You said it in your last sentence, you'll be back for a "prostitute run". Why? Not enough Chinese girls you can have bastard kids with?

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[BlueSkyCowboy]

Why do you feel the need to explain yourself here ? No one cares.

totster

That is what he is "talking" about, people like you. Some countries have figured out that it is easier to send their retards and other undesirables to Thailand with $1500 a month pension or disability then to institutionalize them at home. Just don't get into a fight with a Thai otherwise you will have the entire village on your ass.

[impulse]

The OP has made some great points. I'd gladly move back to China in a New York minute if my company would mail my paycheck there.

But a word to the wise. Take off the rose tinted shades (much like you have for Thailand) or you'll be among the 95 out of 100 foreigners that get taken to the cleaners in China.

A few great opportunities scattered in a zillion mirages that will have you scratching your head in a year or three, wondering how it came down to this- broke, disheartened and on the outside of the company you founded.

Edited March 31, 2014 by impulse

[Skeetjones]

Why do you feel the need to explain yourself here ? No one cares.

totster

He's fishing for some more questions to bash and belittle on the Thai people (as if all 65 million Thais are all the same) ..."like" the Thai people forced him to come to Thailand in the first place or stay in Thailand for 10 years.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Skeetjones]

Boo whoooo ... I'm so sad.

Now I have to pay 60 baht for a beer instead of 50.

Waaahhhh. The Thai girls don't flock to me anymore like they used to...

Booo whooo .... Clubs aren't the same as they where 10 years ago, yet I'm 50 and still go clubbing?!

Waaaaahhhh... I'm moving to china! Thai people are not interesting and mean to me...

Sniffle sniffle ... Yet I probably never actually had a real conversation with a Thai person, unless it had too do with asking the price for sex for the night ....

Booo whooo... Thailand's economy is getting better and my money is getting weaker .. Mommy I need a tissue

Bye bye Thailand ... Waaaahh ... They will regret I ever left

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[squarethecircle]

OP as others have said, the list of complaints you have applies to China as well, and on top.of that it is difficult to find clean food and water and clean air is out of the question, even in the nicer east coast cities.

But its got its benefits...Ive got a teaching gig in a study abroad prep, students are very diligent and motivated, something I did not find at the Thai school I worked in Issan.

Either way, good luck.

[squarethecircle]

OP as others have said, the list of complaints you have applies to China as well, and on top.of that it is difficult to find clean food and water and clean air is out of the question, even in the nicer east coast cities.

But its got its benefits...Ive got a teaching gig in a study abroad prep, students are very diligent and motivated, something I did not find at the Thai school I worked in Issan.

Either way, good luck.

[guzzi850m2]

I don't find OP post very good, but more like a guy who spend the last 3 years shagging all the girls in Nana,Patpong & Soi Cowboy and are feed up with it all.

I spend 10 days in Shenzhen less than 3 month ago and was very happy when I could get the hell out of there (work). A typical Western food lunch special was app 100 Yuan which is +500 baht. I can get a decent special lunch in Pattaya for app 300 baht.

Pollution, well well, China have big big problems with smog, get your face-mask ready, you gonna need it.

Electrical bicycles are very cheap man, you can get one for app 400US$. In Shenzhen they all carried a big lock so it looks like a lot are stolen so that's about the same as Pattaya, lol.

I been happily married to a very nice Thai lady for almost 10 years and she never puts her own family ahead of me, but always says that we as husband/wife/kid are the most important.

[MonkeyLoo]

You can always focus on the negatives of anywhere.

I had some hard times by my standards living in Arab countries, but you can always look back and laugh. Its what you choose to make it. We can all think of worse places than Thailand im sure, but if the OP needs a change then good luck to him. Nothing wrong with that.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[BritManToo]

If everybody would follow ur comment.....bye bye thaivisa...

Not at all, the forum is a great place to find information and discuss different topics. However, no one has asked or cares whether the OP is leaving Thailand or the reasons behind his decision.

totster

I cared, and I found the OP interesting.

I would like to hear more, I would also like to hear how the OP gets on in China.

[Wordworx]

OP makes some good (and typical) points, well structured piece. My experience living in China and around Southeast Asia is those sort of problems abound. Beijing, North and South Thailand, Laos, Malaysia (mostly Langkawi, so not really Malaysia), Bali, Sumatra, etc... All pretty messed up to varying degrees, variations on OP's themes. (Like most places this side of the world... and others.)

China, though, best not to go in with naivety. Lived and worked there based in Beijing for 4.5 years, consulting to a Chinese publishing house, worked mainly with educated mainlanders. Traveled all over the country, acquaintances ranged from serious CEO types, government officials and smart, educated young people in the cities to villagers in the hinterlands, including way out in Tibet and Xinjiang. Across the nation (wherever there are Han) you are going to encounter much of what you described in your post, just *China style.*

[GENERALIZATION AND ABSOLUTISM ALERT]

First off, dishonesty is a way of life, business and personal relationships. They don't think twice about it. A lot of times it's under the standard *saving face* copout, but really what it is about is taking advantage in any way possible, gaining anything possible and making life *easier* for the person doing the lying. Literally, I've watched them boldly lie for no reason. It is like core to their daily verbal communications. Lying is simply accepted. And, of course, 90% of the smiles are BS. You can bet, there for some months, plenty of times when your back is turned and you are out the door, one will turn to the other and comment along the lines of "Stupid laowai". To be fair, they do the same to their fellows. Backstabbing in business, for instance, is second nature.

On average, for some obvious historical reasons, the Chinese do not like ("arrogant") Westerners. Some, typically younger adults who have lived in the West, actually prefer the company of Westerners. But that's not many. A lot of the women prefer Western guys and, yes, a lot of times that's is a mercenary inclination. (No big news there.) And wait until you are out with some other guys, all of you in the company of a hot looking Chinese woman. The Chinese dudes just love seeing that (not). Plenty of laowai guys have had their asses kicked (and a lot worse) in the clubs of Sanlitun (Beijing) and plenty of other places for just that reason.

It can be much worse for non-Han Chinese. The Han basically look down on the other 55(ish) ethnic groups in China. And if that *other* is of humble means, like those poor bastards who have migrated to the cities to take sh-t jobs, they are often outright abused by the Han *upper class* (Manchu, too, for that matter). I've personally witnessed some pretty horrendous stuff while in the company of Han acquaintances. For them it's the norm; they don't even take note.

All that said: Certainly more room for employment. But unless you are looking to *freelance* illegally, running the risk of being deported (and here I state the obvious), you need a fully documented business visa. Even then, even with *official* confirmation by the China-based outfit, you will likely be required to cross a border every month or two. While you are at it, you better become acquainted with the term "Guanxi". Believe me: competency and smarts is not the main reason most people land higher-level gigs in China. Not even close. Women, in particular, some types of enterprise, are often hired based mainly on how they look and how willing they may be to let the boss have his way with them. Some cases, it's just flat-out part of the job and getting ahead. Men, no big surprise, it's who they know and how solid are their connections. Ass-kissing? They got it down to an art form.

And if you have some money to invest: Don't. At least not until you put some years in. Civil dispute with a mainlander, you don't stand a chance. Also, prepare yourself for the renters market. Chinese landlords are notorious for screwing over the laowai tenants. Especially when it comes time to return the deposit.

Similar to Thai Visa is *The Beijinger*. Maybe take a look at the forums there. You are going to see the same sort of bitching and moaning.

[HeijoshinCool]

If everybody would follow ur comment.....bye bye thaivisa...

Not at all, the forum is a great place to find information and discuss different topics. However, no one has asked or cares whether the OP is leaving Thailand or the reasons behind his decision.

totster

Not true. I'm quite interested in why he has chosen to leave Thailand, and in fact agree with many of his "whys."

On the other hand, leaving Thailand for China, is like leaving West Virginia for Tennessee.

[arminbkk]

I agree with most the OP wrote. Of course, it does not apply to all and everyone in Thailand, but it does for a large part.

Why people can still call Thai people friendly, peace-loving, fun-loving, smiling people, interested in the You, not your wallet is beyond me. Where in Thailand do they live, I want to live there too. I sure don’t see this in Bangkok and not in Isaan, either Mueang or countryside, or on the train between the two. Everything is so commercialized, it’s all the money. Granted, it is that way anywhere, but Thais used to at least use smiling friendly service to get your business , now they just grunt with a dismal face and when you then decline with a friendly smile, they look at you like you are the jerk. Well, I at least acknowledge and reply, other people, Thai or otherwise, don’t even do that.

Anyway, I think Thais used to welcome foreigners to better their country’s economic situation, but now after more than a decade, they are tired of foreigners. I think that might/will be the case with China also. Have to admit though, I’ve never been to China so I only know what other people that have been there, tell me about China and Chinese people. And it’s not all positive.

Another point I agree with the OP is the reputation of foreigners, both coming from Thais and other foreigners. When I walk along Sukhumvit, many Thais and farang will assume the same reason for my being there. And of course that assumption does not come with “good on you man, have a great time”. I am actually only there to visit the gym, nothing else.

Ah well, I could write more, but I have to work on my ‘jai yen’ now

[A1Str8]

Most things you said about this country are true. But I am not sure if heading to another country where you are going to face pretty much the same will solve the problem.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[phanangpete]

Well said Mr Hammer, I have'nt lived in Bangkok but can relate exactly to what you are saying.

I have lived in Pattaya 7 years and moved south for a quieter life, in total 9 yrs here, it has changed dramatically since 2005 and i don't think you can blame the expats for that !

The Thai's don't look further than today and have ,due to lack of a proper education, no idea of people social interaction, they believe all their success is due to themselves and no other influence.

Have you ever heard one say, thanks for you custom, loyalty, and so on , no. Im still waiting and yes i have pumped millions of baht into the economy over that period ive owned two houses over the 5 mil. mark and am building another on a island. I drive only new motors.

I used to Holiday in Greece, and five yrs in a row ,you could not believe the welcome on each return trip, i still remember that.

All these who say ,oh well ive been married ten yrs and its been ......... yea sure what age are you and how many previous failed ones , yea never mentioned , ofcourse if you meet a nice quiet one half your age etc , thats another subject for another time, but believe me ive met thousands of them.

Go ahead Hammer , leave the losers behind. Most of them are on a small pension and coud'nt support themselves let alone a thai wife back home !

Edited March 31, 2014 by phanangpete

[Thomas33399]

If everybody would follow ur comment.....bye bye thaivisa...

Not at all, the forum is a great place to find information and discuss different topics. However, no one has asked or cares whether the OP is leaving Thailand or the reasons behind his decision.

totster

You are just so so painful. Luckily also easy to forget.

[rmacee]

Good read.. Well written summary of where you are right now. Staying in a foreign country is like marriage.. Unless you work at it it will get dull and boring and suddenly you think 'the grass is greener' elsewhere.

A lot of the points you make are a good reflection of where Thai is right now.. The 'fun easygoing' factor has disappeared and the arrival of the Internet and mobile technology and the arrival of tourists from the Eastern European (including Russia), Indians, Chinese, Koreans, Middle East etc has and continues to change what Thailand WAS all about..

That's life.. so take your pick.. guess a lot of guys just go home..or in your case move on... All the best

Edited March 31, 2014 by rmacee

[phanangpete]

I actually believe ,like many others, to put my pic in, what you scared of, do you want me to enlighten you !

[elzach]

OP, you make some interesting points.

Now here's a few points from someone who lived in China till last year:

1. Yes, foreigners (Westerners only, mind you) are appreciated far more in China vs Thailand. The reason foreigners here are considered "farangs to be fleeced" is the Thai INFERIORITY COMPLEX running amok. I hope I don't need to explain this. Now the Chinese have that complex too, BUT they are also highly interested in learning from foreigners, to copy and paste basically what works. In short, the Chinese want to be Westerners.

2. Yes, there are more business opportunities in China. But the economy is on a downturn now and very risky. Remember, this is not just another Asian country. This is a huge country controlled by 20-30 people (CCP elite). The do lie about everything, and will do anything, just to stay in power. You're moving to the biggest dictatorship in the world. There is no due process there and the local government and police can do whatever they want with you and your business, and your Chinese lawyer would be useless.

3. Cost of living: China is probably the most over-priced, over-rated, country in Asia, especially Tier 1-2 cities. When you see what the rents are, kindly report back here Living and dating in Shanghai for example, will compare nicely with Europe and NYC costs.

4. Quality of life: oh boy, prepare for "fake everything", from fake food to fake alcohol to fake...you name it.

5. Tied to #4 above: I hope you're getting your gas mask with you. Google "China air pollution". And it's EVERYWHERE, not just Beijing and the north.

6. The Chinese who have the ways and means are en masse moving out of China. That alone should tell you something

[fatdrunkandstupid]

Mr Hammer is a growing phenomena.

He derives his income from the internet, and with that is no longer shackled to a specific location.

Countries and the various cities therein are thus reduced to products, each with its own facets and unique selling points (USP).

In years gone bye, Thailand could offer a number of USPs.

Let me use Phuket as an example...

Once upon a time Phuket had a pristine natural environment, a quiet and relaxed outlook and pace, a low cost of living, and pretty and accessible ladies.

All of those USPs have now vanished with perhaps the exception being the later. The girls are still available...but are obessed with materialism...

And so...Mr Hammer, like myself, is now shopping around for another destination in which to set up camp.

He is a smart guy and so he has done his due dilligence and settled upon China.

I however, have done mine and settled upon Indonesia.

Marketing textbooks often mention the concept of product loyalty. That is, the tendency to continue to purchase the same brand. But product loyalty is largely a charactistic most often found in the baby boomers...those consumers older than Mr Hammer and I. They still love their vegemite, their guiness, their digestive biscuits, their harleys....

Mr Hammer and I however, have no product loyaltly whatsoever...we assess everything on its merit (including countries and the cities therein) and select a new home upon the basis that it will provide things that satisfy (or exceed) our wants and desires.

On one hand we are truly free...but on the other, we are victims of what I shall call...THE TYRANNY OF CHOICE.

Edited March 31, 2014 by fatdrunkandstupid