I was aggressively targeted by Thai police - 4pm yesterday

[spambot]

Situation Background

I just got off the bus to go home and walked down a narrow passage (that only Thai's use) since it runs parallel with Khaosan rd it allows you to bypass the crowds. It was 4pm in the afternoon and I was wearing smart khaki trousers and casual sports shirt - I was carrying a computer bag and clothes bought earlier from a shop.

And I am nearly 60 yrs of age.

There is nothing here I can think would suggest I fit a type of profile that Thai police should think is a good predictor of someone likely to be involved in criminal activity, but this was apparently was not the case.

The Event

After walking 20 meters down the alleyway a motorbike with 2 Thai police started up their bike and sped towards me, stopped - got off and came aggressively came towards me and were so close it was intimidating – Questions: “Where do you live”, “where is your passport” This felt more a precursor to real objective - Without invitation they started putting their hands in my pockets and withdrawing my possession including my wallet opening this and taking out what was was contain inside (There was no money or other goods taken), Then the other took my bags and began searching it without asking me for permission, then the first began placing his hands on the top of my groin and then between my legs (outside of my clothes) and then opening lower part of my shirt to my trousers and running his hands around my trouser wasteland inside my shirt on my skin - I was definitely not in control of this situation.

The whole process lasted about 7/8 minutes and this not conducted in a manner to showcase the “land of smiles” they were excessively abrasive. I was shaken afterwards by the experience and in a minor state of shock the way they conducted the search.

As they left I did manage to ask why they had searched me and they replied “We look for bomb and guns”.

What reason?

I looked every part as a tourist even though I am here on retirement visa and I was a short distance from a street that was 99% filled with tourist– I cannot really believe that they think that tourists are the main source of guns and bombs. The recent destructive activity involving these things have been done by 100% Thai's – What would be the motivation and why would a foreigner be suspected of carrying a bomb or guns?

OK – This might be just a cover for something else and really they were looking for drugs and since I was the only foreigner on the street it was a justification enough in their minds that I might be a user or a seller. I do not really know the answer. However outside of this it was more the way that they carried out this process being intimidating and done without consent. They took liberty and they had a complete lack of respect and abusing any power they believed that they had

Questions:

1. Does anyone have experience in this happening to them?

2. What is the right way to react – Is it to be assertive or remain submissive / compliant?

3. What does the law say…… (If you did ever get the chance to use it)?

I have no idea of how I could have created more control in this situation or even how I could have stopped the process or even asked for any witnesses to be present before continuing (I think that this is stated in the law as a right when stopped and searched) - The threat and the way this happened was not in my control and I felt I would have created a reaction then believing this was a battle of power and I really didn't want to test how to see far they would go on this challenge.

Last Thoughts

I obviously would have been satisfying to shout out loud - As they were leaving, “Stop I found the guns” and when I got a reaction - point at what they were carrying.

……But obviously I didn't!

[Costas2008]

"then the first began placing his hands on the top of my groin and then between my legs (outside of my clothes) and then opening lower part of my shirt to my trousers and running his hands around my trouser wasteland inside my shirt on my skin"

Conclusion........he fancied you.

Some of us, can't avoid reactions like that.....being soooo hansum.

[spambot]

Ahhhh - Costas - Actually that mihght explain it :-)

Feeling much better now!

[DP25]

I've been stopped and searched several times in Khao San Area. They said they were looking for drugs. They looked around my waist to see if I was hiding something there, in pockets, went through my pack of cigs, and once made me take off my shoes. It happens a lot there.

why would a foreigner be suspected of carrying a bomb or guns?

There are a lot of bomb threats against Khao San Road, especially the Israeli guesthouses. They arrested a couple guys from Lebanon last week who were plotting an attack. Two years ago an Iranian safehouse they were making bombs in blew up, they ran and one of them ended up blowing up his own legs when he was chased by police and tried to throw his bomb at them. Bangkok in general and Khao San Road specifically is definitely an international terrorist target.

Edited April 27, 2014 by DP25

[Som wat]

If they didn't plant anything on you, and didn't steal anything from you, then they were bored and wanted some fun.

[uptheos]

1. Don't look like a tourist......why would you want to?

2. Don't say retirement visa or the TV police will be after you.

[Fookhaht]

Once going through a checkpoint into a Mowlam concert, I was frisked very slowly, with special attention to under my shirt (chest and belly) and groin (outside the pants) by the policeman on duty. It was semi-dark, so at least the impromptu massage was in semi-privacy. I'm hoping it might be the same reason you welcome Costas' comment.

As to the OP's questions, my 2 cents:

1. answered above

2. submissive/compliant. After all, he's got the gun.

3. it doesn't matter when the entire culture of the entity we talk about are "above the law"

Edited April 27, 2014 by Fookhaht

[slipperylobster]

This same thing happened to me...no explanations. Two police jumped up out of their parked car (they were waiting for me) and thrust their hands in my pockets. I had only shorts and a tank top. I presume they were looking for drugs...put perhaps were planting some? A twenty baht bill fell, and one of them picked it up and handed it to me. With not a word, both suddenly gave up and went back to the car, driving off. A spot search? Perhaps an informant indicating I was a drug seller? Who knows... This I do know....if any search/seizure laws exist, they are surely not enforced. You may have been in an area where drug trafficking was going on.....or worse yet, near the drug lord's home.

[arjunadawn]

Wow. I am impressed by your restraint. Your post invited me to consider what I would do. My first instinct is an aggressive response; but I am sure that would turn out badly for me.

This is not the west where there is pretense to rights and process; for better or worse I suspect you did everything right. But it remains true that the area you reference is a frequent and current target for Islamists targeting Jewish/Israeli travelers. As recently as a week or so ago intel ensnared Hezbollah operatives in the final stages of a bombing run in that area. What your experience clearly revealed is not only the threat being current, but that they suspect a new MO- using western appearing operatives.

I pray I am as measured as you in your response. Sucked I'm sure but I think you did well.

Edited April 27, 2014 by arjunadawn

[krisb]

I assume any countries police have the rite to frisk search a suspect no?

Op someone mentioned middle eastern guys and Israeli guest houses, do you fit the description of a dark haired or middle eastern look?

[arthurwait]

Quite simple.

All Thais find old farangs simply irresistible and wanted an excuse for a grope.

[CharlieH]

You took what appears to be a "bypass" to normal foot traffic, that in itself could be seen as suspicious for a ferang. If only thais usually use it then from there point of view why would you need to ? Could look like you were trying to dodge them or had something to hide by using the alley and not the main walkway like evety other ferang.

Your reaction and behaviour in my opinion was correct, anything else and who knows what they may have done, best to roll with it.

Edited April 27, 2014 by CharlieH

[uptheos]

You took what appears to be a "bypass" to normal foot traffic, that in itself could be seen as suspicious for a ferang. If only thais usually use it then from there point of view why would you need to ? Could look like you were trying to dodge them.

Your reaction and behaviour in my opinion was correct, anything else and who knows what they may have done, best to roll with it.

Probably looked more like a lost tourist.

[arjunadawn]

I assume any countries police have the rite to frisk search a suspect

Actually, no. In practice even America is devolving but generally it is a staple of free men and countries that they should only be frisked upon arrest, or exigence. Of course not all countries enshrine the natural rights of man. Having said this I do support exigent actions to secure safety; But it's slippery slope.

[spambot]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I assume any countries police have the rite to frisk search a suspect no?

Op someone mentioned middle eastern guys and Israeli guest houses, do you fit the description of a dark haired or middle eastern look?

No not really - I from UK and I dress and look like a Sainsbury shopper - I always make sure to wear smart casual clothes, well groomed, no distinguishing outer symbols or markings, with no tattoos and no clothing typical of eastern people - I tend to overdress smart / never wear shorts or t-shirts even in warm weather.

And I would have thought I would be the least likely (by appearance) to suggest drugs (or bombs) carrying - stereotype.

[Tywais]

I posted this in a similar topic: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/716294-stopped-bt-the-police-warningadvice/

Note the 2nd part as it pertains to the OP. Source - Siam Legal

Guidelines to be followed in searches and seizures with a warrant

1. The search warrant must be shown to the occupant before the search is conducted;
2. The officer must give his name and title to the occupant prior to the search;
3. As much as possible, the search must be conducted in the presence of the owner or occupant or a competent member of his family;
4. If no owner/occupant/family member is available to witness the search, the police must secure the presence of at least two independent and competent witnesses before the search is conducted;
5. The items found in the search must be shown to the witnesses, who must acknowledge the items found.

Police may conduct searches and seizures without a warrant when he has reasonable grounds to believe that the suspect has in his possession:

1. Articles that may be used to commit a crime;
2. The fruits of a crime;
3. Illegal items (like illegal substances).

[spambot]

You took what appears to be a "bypass" to normal foot traffic, that in itself could be seen as suspicious for a ferang. If only thais usually use it then from there point of view why would you need to ? Could look like you were trying to dodge them or had something to hide by using the alley and not the main walkway like evety other ferang.

Your reaction and behaviour in my opinion was correct, anything else and who knows what they may have done, best to roll with it.

Good point Charlie - The suspicion could have been just that - Odd place to be - Rather than appearance of individual.

I could handle the logic of that (or anything else), but its difficult knowing that they carried this out so aggressively using power with permission - I guess they thought they were being amazing in Thailand - Getting taglines mixed up.

[HardenedSoul]

I haven't been stopped and searched for some time around my neighbourhood but when I went through a phase of being stopped regularly by the "police", wherever possible, I would insist on being searched in a well-lit area like in front of a gas station, 7-Eleven or a Family Mart.

Anywhere, basically, that had CCTV.

Although it's best to be polite, you can't let them take the piss.

On one or two occasions they've asked me to produce an original passport.

A firm but polite, "I'm busy, mate. The copy is all you need" while looking him square in the eye is all that's required to let him know you ain't a fool.

[krisb]

HS, I always thought original not photocopied id needed to be produced if asked for in Thailand? Im sure I read that somewhere.

Also re the frisk search, although there are guidelines cops are meant to follow, there seems to be a loophole of sorts saying if they suspect then they have the rite to search a person.

[marcusd]

Spam or, I think Charlie summed it perfectly. You too a bypass in an undesirable area... Drugs, suspect tourists, recent Muslim insurgents, and be always calm. Getting riled only makes things worse no,matter what the country

Marcusd. Via tapatalk

[Gsxrnz]

If I was a cop looking for drug or bomb couriers, I might be inclined to look for the least suspicious character I could find. Maybe the OP was dressed far too typically like an "off the shelf" tourist and looked too much like a text book tourist to be believable.

On the other hand, if I saw a dark skinned, bearded middle eastern gentleman looking furtive and suspiciously carrying a computer bag, I might be inclined to have a crack at him too.

Back home in NZ, our police caught two members of the French secret service (DGSE) after they blew up the Green Peace ship "The Rainbow Warrior" in Wellington harbour in 1985. One of the principal reasons was because they were behaving and dressing so much like "typical" tourists, they over cooked their cover and got busted. You'd have thought the French would have been proficient enough to get away with it and who would ever have thought that an ally would bomb you.

For the OP, my point is that if those cops (wrongly) had a gut feeling about you and searched you, let's hope they also have a gut feeling about the dude that actually is carrying a bomb.

[HardenedSoul]

HS, I always thought original not photocopied id needed to be produced if asked for in Thailand? Im sure I read that somewhere.

Also re the frisk search, although there are guidelines cops are meant to follow, there seems to be a loophole of sorts saying if they suspect then they have the rite to search a person.

I think the police realise just how inconvenient it is to carry an original passport everywhere. If you lose it, you're in all sorts of trouble.

A photocopy of the main page and the visa page suffices for 99% of purposes involving the police.

It is said that sight of the visa page significantly reduces the likelihood that you'll be asked to produce an original and complete passport.

[Tmymaimee]

What is the colour of your skin? Always 2 sides to every story.

[Ulysses G.]

What is the colour of your skin?

That crossed my mind too. Many years ago we had a black friend who used to get searched extensively every time he left Thailand and came back on a visa run. He was a really nice guy - but kind of naive - and could not understand why no one else on the tourist van ever got searched but him

Edited April 27, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[spambot]

Whereustay - Ulysses G. - I'm a white guy from Yorkshire

[IAMSOBAD]

Very scary situation.

Most...not all...BIB drink on the job and carry a loaded gun and a badge that makes them 100% right and US 100% wrong. I'm glad you made it without them planting something. I would stay off THE ROAD LESS TRAVELED and stay in crowds.

[spambot]

I am thankful to Tywais - He has cited a similar even that occurred 100 meters or so from where the stop and search occurred for me - Familiar story that it happened in a quiet area, the guy had also just gotten off the bus and amazingly he identifies his type clothing being smart - Just like I did (seems we both are trying to justify who we are by what we wear).

I kind getting a picture that the big factor was the place where I was, not the way I looked - So Police found places that would not bring too much attention to what they were doing.

However knowing this is one thing, but changing the way that they do it is something else - How they conduct themselves should not be an experience that leaves you a little fearful that it might happen again - So if you stay clean - The problem is not that you might get found - Rather that they might want to do the search again and its the process itself that is uncomfortable.

It would not take a lot to make this work a little smoother - Give you a card in English (most popular) telling you your choices and giving some safeguards i.e one of the police will conduct the search and one will film the process - One of the choices might be to it here or another might be to go to a well lit place with people around to witness - Or a choice would be to go to the station, but it might take longer etc - I am not offering a blueprint here for process just an open thought - And there should be a better way of doing this - That is not forced upon you and not done in secret lonely spaces with guys carrying guns with little English to let you know what is going on.

[spambot]

Very scary situation.

Most...not all...BIB drink on the job and carry a loaded gun and a badge that makes them 100% right and US 100% wrong. I'm glad you made it without them planting something. I would stay off THE ROAD LESS TRAVELED and stay in crowds.

Ha - IAMSOBAD - I like this way you phrased this - You make a made a good clear point and the end with a line that did make me laugh

[h90]

Get over it....There is terrible shooting that anti-goverment protesters and they might got some informations that weapons are smuggled with Farangs as they won't be checked.

By seeing you walk a way normally only used by Thais they though.....here he is we got him......

Not nice but guess what would have happened if it would be USA, they would throw you to the floor and put the pump gun on your head and shoot your dog (if you have one).

But what they should have done is apologize......

[spambot]

I agree partially with h90 There are good points here that are worth considering, however I am not sure that I should be thankful it was not worse - It is potentially less healthy than looking at what's going wrong and possibly at improvements for fixing it - Rather than reference the worst that might happened so as to be thankful it didn't.

Edited April 27, 2014 by spambot