Thai Citizen or Not?

[JordanL]

My son was born in Singapore and my wife is Thai. This means he is entitled to Thai citizenship by birth.

We went through a lot of red tape with the Thai embassy here in Singapore to get his Thai Birth Certificate and Passport, but was told that we need to "complete the formalities" by getting his name into a Household Registration Document back in his mother's district office for him to be recognised as a Thai Citizen.

I am not sure if this is correct but he already has a Thai Passport (albeit without a Thai National ID), which technically means he is already a Thai Citizen. Even his passport says "Nationality: Thai".

Seems to me there is a lot of ambiguity in this and I am wondering if there is any necessity to have him in the Household Registration Document to begin with. Anyone can shed some light on this?

[ubonjoe]

He is a Thai citizen now.

The house book entry is required for all Thai's. If you were to apply for his next passport here the house book would be needed.

He can be entered in the same house book as his mother.

[samran]

I was in your son's position for the firsr 30 years of my life. Born in Australia with Australian citizenship, later to get Thai citizenship autmatically via descent when the laws were updated. Thai and Australian birth certificates (though nb. I didn't get my Thai BC until 1992 when dual nationality was offically allowed....many many years after I was born). The Thai BC was issued in Canberra.

My first 2 or 3 Thai passports had the ID section left blank, as you don't get an ID number until you go back and register yourself in Thailand, on the house book (aka Tabieen Baan). The blue coloured version of this registers all Thai citizens and foreign permanent residents. The yellow version registers all other non-Thai citizens.

Is it compulsory for your son to get on the tabieen baan?

- if living overseas, not really, though it can make it easier. The main way it makes it easier is if you have an ID number passport issuance can be done in Thailand. If you have no ID number, embassies can generally issue passports to foreign born Thai nationals given that they know it is impossible to get an ID number if you've never lived there. So in my case, before I moved to Thailand I had all my Thai passports issued via the Thai embassy in Canberra. Similar to your son.

- For me, as I didn't live in Thailand full time till I was more or less I was 30, then the lack of ID number posed no issue. When I moved to Thailand however having an ID card is pretty essential as it is needed (and very handy) in all sorts of day to day scenario's (banking, govt interactions, getting a mobile, credit card etc etc.

- In your son's situation he can come and go freely from Thailand on his overseas issued Thai passport and stay indefinetly with no risk of overstay. He is a Thai citizen, just one who has no residence in Thailand at this point (and hence no need to be on the house registration).

- If you do move back to Thailand, it becomes increasingly important that he is registered. Schooling, broadly 'getting into the system', it is useful to be registered. The most important one however is that living in Thailand, authorities can't waive the requirement to have an an ID number. So he'll need an ID if he ever wants to renew his Thai PP in Thailand.

- The only issue is military service. If you have no intention on living in Thailand, putting him on the house register puts him on the radar of military service when he turns 20. So if you don't have any intenton to live in Thailand, then simply have his PP issued by embassies overseas who can waive the ID number requirement (though note, some embassies get a bit flusered by this, but as you've seen with your son, it is possible).

If you do return to Thailand, I don't see a problem getting him on the house registration. He can easily get out of military service by doing cadets at high school once a week for three years with other mates. University studies also defers it until graduation, or graduating and then volunteering allows you only to do 6 months of basic training. But that is two decades down the road. As the rules stand, if he is overseas, or unable to report till he is 30, then upon return he will automatically be exempted.

Trips back on the Thai passport are possible. I came and went many times in my 20's doing work experience, contract work, study etc with just the passport - no ID. The military and immigraton don't talk to each other in this manner.

Anyway, just to reassure you. Your son is a Thai citizen. His Thai BC says so. Whether he has an ID number is a matter of logistics and convienence. I didn't get an ID number till 29! No worries there at all.

[Arkady]

I know others in your position who get a Thai passport for sons living overseas but no tabien baan or ID card until they are 30, unless they actually move to Thailand, to avoid call up. For daughters it's OK to put them on a tabien baan and get them an ID card as well but not essential unless they want to move to Thailand or buy land or have a majority position in a company there.

[Mario2008]

What is your nationality?

I believe Singapore doesn't allow dual nationality and when he becomes 18 (?) he would have to choose if he also has Singaporean nationality, or he loses that.

[Arkady]

I know a Singaporean with a Thai wife and minor children who has done as I mentioned above. His daughter has a Thai ID card and passport but only uses the Singaporean passport to travel, even to Thailand, to avoid creating a paper trail that could alert Singaporean authorities she has another nationality. His son has a Thai passport which he also doesn't use but it proves he is Thai and he can get an ID card at 30, if he is interested, when he will no longer be subject to military call-up. My friend is satisfied that he has provided both his children with full claims to Thai nationality which is their birthright without jeopardising their Singaporean nationality. Thus, when they are older they can choose to live in Thailand, if they want, and give up their Singaporean nationality. Alternatively, they can stay in Singapore as Singaporeans but have the ability to buy land and own businesses in Thailand. They could even live in Thailand on their Singaporean passports and just use their Thai ID cards to own land and businesses.

Unlike the US, Thailand has no law requiring Thai nationals to enter the country only using their national passports. Thai Immigration will even grant automatic 1-year visa extensions to Thais who choose to stay (for whatever reason) in Thailand on their foreign passports.

[samran]

I know others in your position who get a Thai passport for sons living overseas but no tabien baan or ID card until they are 30, unless they actually move to Thailand, to avoid call up. For daughters it's OK to put them on a tabien baan and get them an ID card as well but not essential unless they want to move to Thailand or buy land or have a majority position in a company there.

For me it was a matter of accident and good fortune. I was a bit ignorant of the military issue until my mid 20s, simply didn't think about it at all given I was largely based in Australia. Read up on the rules in my late 20s but by that stage was in London on a working holiday, came back when i was 29 when we got sick of the cold in the uk and had landed a job with a multinational firm based in Bangkok and had a regional role. At that point I figured it would be a good idea to get the ID and military sorted and given I was the right age it was all painless.

The rules actually say that you are exempt from the year you turn 30.

[masamania]

Is it true that mother need to be with to add name to the tabien baan? Last year I tried to add my name to my sister's tabien baan and officials said that I need my mother's permission to do that even though I was 20-years old. I had thai birth certificate and expired thai passport with me, both had issued by Thai embassy.

It's fraustrating that embassy will not allow me to apply new thai passport without thai id card.

Edited June 8, 2014 by masamania

[ubonjoe]

Is it true that mother need to be with to add name to the tabien baan? Last year I tried to add my name to my sister's tabien baan and officials said that I need my mother's permission to do that even though I was 20-years old. I had thai birth certificate and expired thai passport with me, both had issued by Thai embassy.

It's fraustrating that embassy will not allow me to apply new thai passport without thai id card.

I assume you did not manage to get listed on the tambien baan and obtain an ID card the last time you were here. Problems like you had can often be overcome by having the village head go with you the Amphoe.

If your passport has expired you can travel to and enter Thailand on it

[patyh]

Hey Jordan,

I'm also a Singaporean borned to a thai Mum and Singaporean dad. Got my thai citizenship done only last year.

Your child is already considered a thai citizen with his thai birth cert and thai passport.

Is there a need to register his name in the house registration book?

That depends, if you have a house in Thailand and intend for him to stay in Thailand, then yes, that would be required..

With regards to the issue of dual nationality. You are legally, according to Singapore, not allowed to hold a Singapore passport or request for one as long as your son holds a Thai passport.

The question of course will be your son's national service that all Singapore boys have to go through. IF your child is under the age of 11, it is still possible for you to get him out of that cycle by requesting a deferment of registration. But doing so, will mean that your son will effectively not be allowed to use his rights as a Singaporean. Meaning, he will have to school as a foreign student.

If you need more information about the above, do let me know!

[patyh]

Is it true that mother need to be with to add name to the tabien baan? Last year I tried to add my name to my sister's tabien baan and officials said that I need my mother's permission to do that even though I was 20-years old. I had thai birth certificate and expired thai passport with me, both had issued by Thai embassy.

It's fraustrating that embassy will not allow me to apply new thai passport without thai id card.

Correct. To be in the tabien baan for the first time, technically, your parent has to be present, or rather at least the parent who is thai. You must also bring two witnesses to attest that you are who you say you are.

Now, in the event that it is not possible for your mother to be present, you may make it known to the official at the district office who will suggest alternatives including DNA test with your thai sibiling.

[masamania]

Is it true that mother need to be with to add name to the tabien baan? Last year I tried to add my name to my sister's tabien baan and officials said that I need my mother's permission to do that even though I was 20-years old. I had thai birth certificate and expired thai passport with me, both had issued by Thai embassy.

It's fraustrating that embassy will not allow me to apply new thai passport without thai id card.

Correct. To be in the tabien baan for the first time, technically, your parent has to be present, or rather at least the parent who is thai. You must also bring two witnesses to attest that you are who you say you are.

Now, in the event that it is not possible for your mother to be present, you may make it known to the official at the district office who will suggest alternatives including DNA test with your thai sibiling.

I was wondering what if my mother would be passed away, could I ever get my name in the tabien baan and obtain thai id card?

Why would i need my siblings to prove that i'm thai? I thought that thai birth certificate and thai passport with my fingerprints on it proves that im thai citizien.

Edited June 9, 2014 by masamania

[ubonjoe]

You could get it even if your mother passed on. There are existing ways you can do it now without her being present.

[patyh]

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Is it true that mother need to be with to add name to the tabien baan? Last year I tried to add my name to my sister's tabien baan and officials said that I need my mother's permission to do that even though I was 20-years old. I had thai birth certificate and expired thai passport with me, both had issued by Thai embassy.

It's fraustrating that embassy will not allow me to apply new thai passport without thai id card.

Correct. To be in the tabien baan for the first time, technically, your parent has to be present, or rather at least the parent who is thai. You must also bring two witnesses to attest that you are who you say you are.

Now, in the event that it is not possible for your mother to be present, you may make it known to the official at the district office who will suggest alternatives including DNA test with your thai sibiling.

I was wondering what if my mother would be passed away, could I ever get my name in the tabien baan and obtain thai id card?

Why would i need my siblings to prove that i'm thai? I thought that thai birth certificate and thai passport with my fingerprints on it proves that im thai citizien.

You could get it even if your mother passed on. There are existing ways you can do it now without her being present.

Like Ubonjoe said, there are ways.. But I reckon it will be harder.. DNA tests are one of the way to prove that you are a Thai Citizen by way of proving that you've relatives here in Thailand.

To your question why would you need sibilings? That would be in the case where your parent are no longer around and the only relatives you have are your sibilings whom of course must be Thai in the first place for this to apply.

[Mario2008]

The OP already has Thai nationality. What he needs to do is to proof that he really is who he says he is in order to get on the tabien baan.

Normally that is done by having close family members vouching for him, or by DNA test.

[JordanL]

Hi all,

it has been a while since I logged in but I see there are a lot of you who have been very helpful to share you experience and give your advice. For that I am grateful and thank everyone, especially samran, Arkady and patyh. For now I will not be registering my son in the Tabien Baan to avoid military conscription in Thailand, since the absence of a National ID is not a concern.

I do have another follow up question regarding this though for my other son who is a Thai Citizen with Permanent Residency in Singapore. You can check the thread here if you would like to give advice!

Thanks!

Edited September 19, 2014 by JordanL