Losing Face.

[baboon]

I have been reading with great interest advice on recent posts advising not to make Thai people lose face lest dreadful things happen. One contributer used the example of the Chinese not giving a flying fortress who loses face as long as they get what they want,and nothing seems to happen to them.

I had a Swedish friend who also just did not care who he upset and ALWAYS GOT WHAT HE WANTED.I am talking Govt. offices,Immigration etc. They just could not wait to get him the <deleted> out of their office.Last night my Thai wife told me I should learn from his example and stop taking an automatic no for an answer.[Asserting myself is admittedly not my strong point,or spelling for that matter.] I understand it is a matter of degree of course,but it does seem the snotty ones always have their way.

Any comments?

[simon43]

Having lived in Thailand for a mere 4 years, it seems to be that using the excuse of losing face is generally not beneficial in the longer term.

I come from a professional background, and there are somethings within my professional sphere where I really know my stuff! Yet, faced with a Thai who is working in the same sphere, and who is making a pig's ear of the subject matter, I am expected to applaud their miserable attempts. Sorry but no! If they are doing it wrong (and for many things there really is a right way and a wrong way), then I will tell them that they are not doing it the correct way and I will show them the correct way and encourage their efforts.

My wife says that I should not intervene in these matters! If it's a project or whatever that will directly affect me or my family, then I will intervene!

Losing face is a way of saying that you are not 'man' enough to learn from others. Everyone is human and everyone makes mistakes and has to learn the right way to do something...except if you are Thai

Simon

[baboon]

Having lived in Thailand for a mere 4 years, it seems to be that using the excuse of losing face is generally not beneficial in the longer term.

I come from a professional background, and there are somethings within my professional sphere where I really know my stuff! Yet, faced with a Thai who is working in the same sphere, and who is making a pig's ear of the subject matter, I am expected to applaud their miserable attempts. Sorry but no! If they are doing it wrong (and for many things there really is a right way and a wrong way), then I will tell them that they are not doing it the correct way and I will show them the correct way and encourage their efforts.

My wife says that I should not intervene in these matters! If it's a project or whatever that will directly affect me or my family, then I will intervene!

Losing face is a way of saying that you are not 'man' enough to learn from others. Everyone is human and everyone makes mistakes and has to learn the right way to do something...except if you are Thai

Simon

Thanks,Simon,But have you ever felt your life to be in danger for standing up for yourself?

[phuketsiam]

I think it really depends on the situation, there are ways to correct Thai's without making them lose face which can be more beneficial in the long run, and there are times when you just have to fix a problem and if eggs get broken then so be it, i think the art is understanding when to use what approach, and this applies in any culture, its just when faced with a different culture its takes time and experience to learn the new rules.

[simon43]

Thanks,Simon,But have you ever felt your life to be in danger for standing up for yourself?

[\quote]

In fact, that does worry me! In any other country, speaking the truth is welcomed and you are recognised for your skills, talents etc. Here in Thailand it seems the slightest (and justified) criticism could lead to an early grave!

What is the matter with this nation where honesty and constructive criticism is deemed as an absolute insult on a person's character!??

[baboon]

Thanks,Simon,But have you ever felt your life to be in danger for standing up for yourself?

[\quote]

In fact, that does worry me! In any other country, speaking the truth is welcomed and you are recognised for your skills, talents etc. Here in Thailand it seems the slightest (and justified) criticism could lead to an early grave!

What is the matter with this nation where honesty and constructive criticism is deemed as an absolute insult on a person's character!??

Yes,but I dont think the concept of losing face is unique to Thailand.I have heard similar stories of other asian countries and also South American nations.Indeed,for example even in London or any major western cities,if you take someone to task over their behavior or conduct the likely result will be a mouthful of abuse or a smack round the head.Is this not" losing face "also?

[Galong]

"...your life to be in danger for standing up for yourself?"

Gimme a break. Thais are NOT supermen and they can't/won't fight unless they've got overwhelming odds.

They expect foreigner to back down and this is part of the problem. Talk it out and stand your ground. Stand up if you're right. You don't have to yell, kick or scream, but for Christ's sake, don't be a total pussy... geeez.

[baboon]

"...your life to be in danger for standing up for yourself?"

Gimme a break. Thais are NOT supermen and they can't/won't fight unless they've got overwhelming odds.

They expect foreigner to back down and this is part of the problem. Talk it out and stand your ground. Stand up if you're right. You don't have to yell, kick or scream, but for Christ's sake, don't be a total pussy... geeez.

A well deserved arse kicking methinks.Cheers for that one.

[Heng]

"...your life to be in danger for standing up for yourself?"

Gimme a break. Thais are NOT supermen and they can't/won't fight unless they've got overwhelming odds.

They expect foreigner to back down and this is part of the problem. Talk it out and stand your ground. Stand up if you're right. You don't have to yell, kick or scream, but for Christ's sake, don't be a total pussy... geeez.

I'm sure Michael Wansley, and any of dozens of those 'plastic bag over their heads' suicide falangs would agree. It's only a matter of time before you run into someone who doesn't value your life and can afford to take action without having to worry about the consequences (and it's likely not going to be a Big C cashier or bank teller).

That said, if you're important enough here (and a few falangs are), you don't have to worry about other folks face at all. People have to worry about not offending YOU. That's how it works.

[jdinasia]

Baboon

Your Swedish friend is indeed heading for trouble .... (See the story of the guy that overstayed by only 9 weeks ... when people often do it for years) and now has a one year vacation from Thailand just for being a smartass with an immigration official.

Simon may be ... but more likely not life threatening Embarass co-workers or people in your field etc ... and you'll find that all of a sudden nnothing you need to get done actually gets done.

If you are not smart enough to find a way to talk your way around a problem in front of a group of officials or co-workers etc ... then you really should stay home and send a proxy.

in most cases though .. will causing someone to lose face really get you in trouble here? no .... but being a bulldozer certainly will

[Thaipwriter]

Face = mechanism for protecting immature humans from the harsh realities of life.

Time to grow up!

[Boon Mee]

Face = mechanism for protecting immature humans from the harsh realities of life.

Time to grow up!

'Face' - an element in most Asian cultures that goes back thousand of years which the westerner better understand & accept or your path in Thailand will be a bumpy one or worse.

[TRIPxCORE]

Face = mechanism for protecting immature humans from the harsh realities of life.

Time to grow up!

I think you summed it up pretty well here. Bravo!!!!!!

[snoophound]

Something you gotta live with.

Thais are all about face and image.

The one thing that I can do to seriously p my missus off is to make her lose face in some way with her friends.

Face = mechanism for protecting immature humans from the harsh realities of life.

Time to grow up!

I think you summed it up pretty well here. Bravo!!!!!!

[Boon Mee]

The one thing that I can do to seriously p my missus off is to make her lose face in some way with her friends.

Yeah, but what's the point?

To make a Thai lose face intentionally is the opposite of the culture in which we live.

Farangs keep making the mistake of trying to interject their culture and mores on Thais and it ain't never gonna work...

[barryofthailand]

The one thing that I can do to seriously p my missus off is to make her lose face in some way with her friends.

Yeah, but what's the point?

To make a Thai lose face intentionally is the opposite of the culture in which we live.

Farangs keep making the mistake of trying to interject their culture and mores on Thais and it ain't never gonna work...

My wife makes my neighbor lose face every day. He puts his trash on the side of our home instead of in front of his house. He refuses to buy a trash bin and uses a small bucket. After one day of trash it overflows in front of our home. I ofered to buy him a trash bin and he got mad, so my wife cleans up his trash every day which in turn makes him lose face.

[Donz]

My Thai gf doesnt care about face, when we are in thailand if she gets the shits at someone she lets loose. I have to restrain her at times.

[Boon Mee]

My wife makes my neighbor lose face every day. He puts his trash on the side of our home instead of in front of his house. He refuses to buy a trash bin and uses a small bucket. After one day of trash it overflows in front of our home. I ofered to buy him a trash bin and he got mad, so my wife cleans up his trash every day which in turn makes him lose face.

That's an excellent example Barry.

My direction on this subject was to point out though that to make someone lose face in a mean or spiteful manner is a receipe for disaster in LOS.

[Heng]

The one thing that I can do to seriously p my missus off is to make her lose face in some way with her friends.

Yeah, but what's the point?

To make a Thai lose face intentionally is the opposite of the culture in which we live.

Farangs keep making the mistake of trying to interject their culture and mores on Thais and it ain't never gonna work...

My wife makes my neighbor lose face every day. He puts his trash on the side of our home instead of in front of his house. He refuses to buy a trash bin and uses a small bucket. After one day of trash it overflows in front of our home. I ofered to buy him a trash bin and he got mad, so my wife cleans up his trash every day which in turn makes him lose face.

I know there isn't a universal face court or anything and opinions will vary, but cleaning up someone else's trash doesn't make them lose face. If anything, it's just lowering yourself to the job of local garbage collector or acting as his servant.

[Kananga]

Personally I think the fact that you let you wife clean someone elses garbage is cowardly and unacceptable.

The reality of the situation isn't that he is losing face, its that you are not man enough to stand up to him, or clean up the garbage yourself.

When to save face - When you are in a potentially violent situation or someone has something of yours (money, loaned object, hotel booking) that you cant afford to lose. In these situations you play along with the rules.

If it is a case of someone throwing their garbage on your land which you let your wife clear up then that is not acceptable. Deal with it Barry. Like a man.

[wilko]

I find it helps to engineer the situation so theat the person you're dealing with feels they are gaining face by doing what you want...e.g. using his position of influence to impress me and my friends or his colleagues....better results and no confontation. Also fear of loosing face rather than actually loosing it can get results.

[Donz]

start empting your garbage on his porch and see if he likes it

[KhunMarco]

I find it helps to engineer the situation so theat the person you're dealing with feels they are gaining face by doing what you want...e.g. using his position of influence to impress me and my friends or his colleagues....better results and no confontation. Also fear of loosing face rather than actually loosing it can get results.

Exactly my experience, you basically are dealing with a child mentality, often a reverse psichology works great.

[Heng]

Dump truck full of garbage, right in front of his driveway (without actually trespassing). If he comes back with his own dump truck full.... the next step is dueling pistols (or perhaps dueling hired motorcycle assassins).

[Donz]

Tell him " if you trash my property, I trash you"

[sbk]

Boon Mee was, I think, trying to make a point that sometimes it is possible to make someone look bad without it making you look bad too.

Example: my husband and I went to a wedding of a friend of his from the other side of the island. (At this point I had been living here over 10 years). We are seated with some Thai people at which point this old lady says (in Thai) in a nasty tone, "I always have to sit next to the farang".

Well, I wanted to sit somewhere else but my husband told me to ignore the stupid old bat (in english, of course). So there we sit and she asks my husband, "Is this your girlfriend?" he answered "No, my wife". "Oh" she says.

So, after a few minutes of eating she asks "Has she been here long?" to which my husband replied "over 10 years" "Oh" she says in a quieter voice.

Few minutes later she asks (in a very small voice) "Can she speak Thai?" "Very well" my husband answered, to which she replied (in an even quieter voice) "Oh". She did not say another word the rest of the meal.

So, by being subtle my husband made her lose face (and look like a biaotch) without making himself or myself look bad.

Because, generally, when you try to make another person lose face by being angry or aggressive what really happens is you lose face and everyone feels sorry for the other guy because he has to deal with such an a-hole.

[OneeyedJohn]

That is an eceptionally good explanation of ' face' and how to use to ur advantage.

[jdinasia]

The one thing that I can do to seriously p my missus off is to make her lose face in some way with her friends.

Yeah, but what's the point?

To make a Thai lose face intentionally is the opposite of the culture in which we live.

Farangs keep making the mistake of trying to interject their culture and mores on Thais and it ain't never gonna work...

Boon! nice post!

sbk .... strangely speaking Thai or letting other people learn that you speak Thai is often the way to take air out of the rudeness bubble ....

I have just once done this in a direct manner by speaking directly and rudely (but properly) to a group of teens that NEEDED to be asked if they were taught how to be polite at school. I am truly glad that the response was a REAL apology and wai instead of what COULD have been an ugly situation! I am not the typical maladjusted bulldozer here ... I had the chance to confront JUST that group and since they were all in on the rude talk on the train I didn't make whoever the biggest bully was lose more than the rest!

[thankuverybig]

it just seems like this is all just arse about face.

[Phil Conners]

The one thing that I can do to seriously p my missus off is to make her lose face in some way with her friends.

Yeah, but what's the point?

To make a Thai lose face intentionally is the opposite of the culture in which we live.

Farangs keep making the mistake of trying to interject their culture and mores on Thais and it ain't never gonna work...

My wife makes my neighbor lose face every day. He puts his trash on the side of our home instead of in front of his house. He refuses to buy a trash bin and uses a small bucket. After one day of trash it overflows in front of our home. I ofered to buy him a trash bin and he got mad, so my wife cleans up his trash every day which in turn makes him lose face.

I agree with the other replies here, he is not losing face, you are.

Having said that, low class Thais are notorious for this behavior. I'd move to a better neighboorhood if I was you. At least one with some basic rules governing garbage collection.