Farang death procedure in Thailand

[boone57]

What is the sequence of events when a forienger dies here? Is someone called to positive identify the body? Also, is the deaseased then burned to ashes and shipped to the person listed as "in case of emergancy" on their passport? Thank you

[NancyL]

The procedure varies depending upon the place where the event occurs -- at home, in hospital; nationality of the deceased; witnesses present; circumstances of the death -- i.e. long illness with anticipated death vs. sudden death, etc. In general, when a foreigner dies at home, the police are called and the body is taken to the morgue. Often an autopsy is ordered if the death wasn't anticipated. In all cases, the Embassy/Consulate of the foreigner is notified. The grapevine works very quickly here. It's difficult to hide the death of a foreigner and quite commonly the deceased's Thai bank accounts are frozen until the next-of-kin presents appropriate documentation (like a court order or Will) to the bank. Not always (some widows have be able to continue to use ATM cards, but not always) Bodies are almost always cremated here.

Edited May 13, 2014 by NancyL

[uptheos]

The procedure varies depending upon the place where the event occurs -- at home, in hospital; nationality of the deceased; witnesses present; circumstances of the death -- i.e. long illness with anticipated death vs. sudden death, etc. In general, when a foreigner dies at home, the police are called and the body is taken to the morgue. Often an autopsy is ordered if the death wasn't anticipated. In all cases, the Embassy/Consulate of the foreigner is notified. The grapevine works very quickly here. It's difficult to hide the death of a foreigner and quite commonly the deceased's Thai bank accounts are frozen until the next-of-kin presents appropriate documentation (like a court order or Will) to the bank. Not always (some widows have be able to continue to use ATM cards, but not always) Bodies are almost always cremated here.

I have heard that the bones are offered back not ashes.

Any idea how true this is?

[Scarpolo]

The procedure varies depending upon the place where the event occurs -- at home, in hospital; nationality of the deceased; witnesses present; circumstances of the death -- i.e. long illness with anticipated death vs. sudden death, etc. In general, when a foreigner dies at home, the police are called and the body is taken to the morgue. Often an autopsy is ordered if the death wasn't anticipated. In all cases, the Embassy/Consulate of the foreigner is notified. The grapevine works very quickly here. It's difficult to hide the death of a foreigner and quite commonly the deceased's Thai bank accounts are frozen until the next-of-kin presents appropriate documentation (like a court order or Will) to the bank. Not always (some widows have be able to continue to use ATM cards, but not always) Bodies are almost always cremated here.

I have heard that the bones are offered back not ashes.

Any idea how true this is?

the Soi Dog mafia may have a say in those bones.

the Soup stalls too

[NancyL]

Yes, cremation here is done at lower temperatures than in the west, so there are more bones in the remains. Also, the Thais feel the bones are the important part of the remains, not the ashes, so the ashes are not kept when the remains are given back to the family. The family has to make a special point to request them. I know one case where the western family literally had to sweep the ashes off the ground themselves to be saved at the crematorium because the staff was regarding them as just so much trash to be separated from the bones. Actually it would have been a comic scene if it hadn't been the day after the cremation of a loved one. It was an interesting scene about the differences each culture has in what is regarded to be the important part of the remains. We consider the ashes important and are appalled to be handed a box of bones. The Thais consider the ashes to be trash.

As for me, I'd like my bones to be buried at the Foreign Cemetery in Chiang Mai after I'm torched.

Edited May 14, 2014 by NancyL

[maphraw]

How do the banks find out so quickly?

[zziffle]

Is the box of bones all the bones from the body? That would be a big box. Femurs and hips and ribs and spine and skull just for a start.

(I can't get the 'Dem Bones' song out of my head as I type this.)

[Bkungbank]

That is way is normal procedure but for ritual procedure also needed for the soul to rest in peace, if he dies in jail the warden have to declare that this name are free from now onward if not his spirits still trap in jail, if he dies in apartment his next of kin needed to call out his name to call him back to back home, it's depend where he would like to go after dead if he would like stay here then find a proper church for him.

The brain still function for few hours after dead and his last wish is important to fulfill so that he can really can rest in peace of mind.

[CharlieH]

In one funeral I know of, the relatives arrived from abroad, asked about ashes , the Thai wife offered them a Tesco carrier bag with partial spine and a few ribs, all washed in lime juice. Thats what was left apparently, no ashes.

It was claimed by another local that was not the norm , its just the fire at that Wat was not made hot enough.

At another funeral, at a different Wat just the ashes were requested and offered back in a tin.

When my wifes Grandfather died, no police, no doctor, just phu yai bahn came, local head monk, he tied white cotton around the wrists and led the carried body into the back of a pick up, drove to the wat, placed on display in open box for 1 day, burnt the next. Job done.

Edited May 14, 2014 by CharlieH

[marko kok prong]

I was told they use a charcoal fire to burn the body,unlike gas in say the Uk,or Australia,don't know if it is true.A friend of mine died a few months back,his body was taken to Phitsanoluk for an autopsy,then brought back,then he was on display in the coffin for a few days,with all the relatives of his wife having the four day ceremoney,cooking ,eating, etc,then the monks came and did the chanting,followed by the funeral at the wat,which lasted about 2 hours i think.

Edited May 14, 2014 by marko kok prong

[higgy88]

From my own experience;

The hospital is not allowed to release the body to anyone without written permission from the government of the appropiate country. In the cases I was involved in, this was the US Consulate in Chiangmai, and the permission was given by fax. Before this permission is given, the Consulate's job is to notify the next of kin. For me that was immediate, but I imagine it could be more difficult if the next of kin is not available or back in the home country, or worse yet, if the next of kin is not known. I imagine that if the body needs to be identified, it would have to be someone who actually knew the person, not the government involved.

As far as the creamation is concerned, I've been told that only the bones are taken because the ashes could also contain the casket, clothes, flowers, etc. With only the bones, you are pretty much guaranteed that you are getting only the remains with nothing else mixed in.

As to whether or not the police are involved, I imagine that is entirely up to the circumstances. And from other cases I have heard about, no one really knows what to do, including the police.

[NancyL]

How do the banks find out so quickly?

The Thai banks find out because there is no such thing as patient privacy at the hospitals. The nurses talk. Police talk. Security guards in the moo baan talk. You may not think that the locals know about us and watch our activities but they do. Bank managers don't always know, but often they do. Individual bank managers are "graded" by the amount on deposit at their branch and they can sometimes be very stubborn about the next-of-kin closing an account. Technically it's illegal for someone to use an ATM card for an account in the name of a deceased person -- even a joint account. In the case of a joint account, it's suppose to be frozen while the bank sorts out rights of the co-owner. It's not a safe assumption that the co-owner is going to inherit the balance remaining in the account.

[ezzra]

can't really say, I haven't died yet.....

[TPI]

Geez Louezzz! How long have you people been in Thailand?

Foreign death...police report, autopsy, burn! Embassy notified, the local family goes through the motions, same as any family member, ashes and bones (bones only if you request them to be not burnt), they (the bones) are laid out by the crematorium attendant in the shape of a body, the ashes are gathered up in a bag or other such container (why should the dead person complain how the ashes are contained?) and given to the NOK......job done!

[TPI]

"The brain still function for few hours after dead and his last wish is important to fulfill so that he can really can rest in peace of mind".

Sorry, absolute nonsense....5 minutes after death or lack of oxygen the brain dies & starts to rot!!

[uptheos]

Yes, cremation here is done at lower temperatures than in the west, so there are more bones in the remains. Also, the Thais feel the bones are the important part of the remains, not the ashes, so the ashes are not kept when the remains are given back to the family. The family has to make a special point to request them. I know one case where the western family literally had to sweep the ashes off the ground themselves to be saved at the crematorium because the staff was regarding them as just so much trash to be separated from the bones. Actually it would have been a comic scene if it hadn't been the day after the cremation of a loved one. It was an interesting scene about the differences each culture has in what is regarded to be the important part of the remains. We consider the ashes important and are appalled to be handed a box of bones. The Thais consider the ashes to be trash.

As for me, I'd like my bones to be buried at the Foreign Cemetery in Chiang Mai after I'm torched.

Thank you Nancy.

[Suradit69]

From my own experience;

The hospital is not allowed to release the body to anyone without written permission from the government of the appropiate country. In the cases I was involved in, this was the US Consulate in Chiangmai, and the permission was given by fax. Before this permission is given, the Consulate's job is to notify the next of kin. For me that was immediate, but I imagine it could be more difficult if the next of kin is not available or back in the home country, or worse yet, if the next of kin is not known. I imagine that if the body needs to be identified, it would have to be someone who actually knew the person, not the government involved.

As far as the creamation is concerned, I've been told that only the bones are taken because the ashes could also contain the casket, clothes, flowers, etc. With only the bones, you are pretty much guaranteed that you are getting only the remains with nothing else mixed in.

As to whether or not the police are involved, I imagine that is entirely up to the circumstances. And from other cases I have heard about, no one really knows what to do, including the police.

I consulted the US embassy in Bangkok and they said if I have a Thai will (which I do) stating that my designated Thai executor be allowed to proceed with my funeral arrangement without interference, they won't get involved. Thai lawyer agreed that what I stipulate in my will is what will be implemented.

I also will be buried, not incinerated. My small plot of land designated for that purpose is mine for 30 years from the time of burial, although some of my neighbors-to-be have remained undisturbed for more than 30 years.

[johnnytuc]

Under what if any circumstances can the body be sent back to his/her country???

[RabC]

Under what if any circumstances can the body be sent back to his/her country???

Basically if you (in a will) or your next of kin ask for it and can afford it, its not cheap.

[BlackJack]

I just spent the last month as an Executor of a Will and I can tell you that it is not easy. There are many people and officials to contact. Then the ashes/bones if repatriated need to be done by specialists and the containers need to be approved before they are allowed on the plane as cargo. The court needs to approve certain things too and finalising everything can take up to 3 months, if there are no challenges. Packing up the assets and giving items to nominated people, etc etc.

So if you think youre doing your friends a favour/honour by asking them to be the Executor of your Will then think again!

[taff33]

My wife and I was talking about leaving our bodies to one of the teaching hospitals,my way of thinking is once you are dead,you are dead.Has any one heard of this,if so how do you go about it?

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Scully]

The body can always be repatriated if that is what is wanted by the decieced, oh and if it can be paid for as it isnt cheap. That's once the body has been released after medical examination.

[Kerryd]

(scroll down to near the bottom for a short "point form" summary)

From personal experience (my father died in hospital in Pattaya in late 2010).

The hospital fills out a Death Certificate. As this was a "natural" death (cancer related) - no autopsy or police report required.

The death certificate had to be take to City Hall to be registered. After that, we had to take the certificate and dad's passport to the Embassy. They cancel the passport, translate the death certificate (at cost) and provide stamped/signed certified copies. We also got the letter/form allowing us to dispose of his remains.

Then it was off to the temple to make the arrangements. Dad's female "companion" (otherwise known as the bwitch) wanted a 3 day, full blown ceremony so that she could impress friends and "make merit" for herself (especially as I was footing the bill) but the temple said no, mainly because dad had been on ice too long already. Because he died on a Saturday afternoon, we couldn't get the paperwork certified at City Hall until Monday, then had to go to Bangkok to the embassy, then had to arrange the ceremony, and the next available timing wasn't until Friday. As dad would have been on ice for 6 days already, they figured he'd probably start to go "ripe" pretty quick in the heat and that a 3 day ceremony would be.....problematic.

Day of ceremony - me and the bwitch went to the morgue who asked how we were going to move dad to the temple. Seems that normally the family shows up with a truck, loads the deceased into the back and drives to the temple (no hearses here)! We ended up paying a Sawang Boriboon team a couple hundred baht to move dad in their truck.

At the temple there is a group of people that do all the arrangements/set up as a part of the total fee for the ceremony. We did a morning ceremony where everyone walks around the body to say good-bye, then we loaded him into the coffin. Another circuit of everyone going around the coffin and dropping small items in (mostly small coins, flowers and such).

Then he's loaded into an ornate "cooler" where he stays until late afternoon. At lunch we had another ceremony, fed the monks who did a chanting thing for awhile and had lunch ourselves (provided by that same group doing all the arrangements).

Late afternoon we did the final ceremony (3 times around the crematorium with the monks and dad's coffin carried in a cart, me at the front with a picture of dad, the bwitch carrying a bowl with incense. Then we carried the coffin up to a stand in front of the oven. The lid was removed (good thing he had been on ice most of the time) - the caretaker removed various items from the body (pack of cigarettes and lighter I'd put there, most of the coins and any other items that might not burn well).

Then various people were supposed to get up and say nice things about the deceased and then everyone goes by the coffin and drops some small paper flowers in it. Coffin closed and ready to go into the oven. Everyone gathers to console (whoever needs it) and then disperses.

The oven gets fired up in the evening, after dark. The next morning at 5 am I had to be back at the temple with the bwitch. The remains were scraped out of the oven into a bucket, and then dumped onto a sheet of plywood. The caretaker used a small trowel to arrange the remains into a vaguely human shape (head, torso, 4 limbs). A monk came by, said some words and left. The caretaker and the bwitch then started picking out pieces of dad to cram into the little urns we had (in this case we had 2 of them, one gold and one silver).

Perhaps the most cringe-worthy part of the whole affair was when the caretaker was sifting through the remains, looking for a piece of dad's skull to top off the urn with. Not finding a suitable piece, he positioned a large piece and then whacked it with the trowel. Then he took one of the broken pieces and placed that on top of the other parts and the bwitch put the top on it.

Basically, the shaping the remains into a human shape is supposed to allow you to pick pieces from the various parts of the body (piece of the leg, pieces of ribs, finger-bones, etc, topped off by a piece of the skull). Turns out we had 2 urns so that I could take one home and the other would go into an niche at the temple.

Then we spread some flower petals and lime water over the rest of the (still very hot) ashes. The caretaker placed 2 large, folded sheets into a large metal wash basin and scraped/shoveled dad's remains into it, then folded/tied the ends of the sheets to make a bundle. We hopped into his truck with me carrying the ashes on my lap (still in the metal basin and still very hot) and drove to a temple in North Pattaya (past Wong Amat I believe).

Eventually we ended up out on a pier in the ocean. A short ceremony from the BMW driving monk and we opened the bundle to dump the rest of the bones/ashes into the sea. (There has got to be a huge pile of burnt bones in the water below that place.)

That was basically it. The ceremonies were a lot more involved but to try and detail it all would take pages and pages. I think all told I paid about 100,000 baht for everything, including the little alcove niche at the temple. (It may have been less though, the bwitch told me it would cost that much and I didn't haggle. She may have scammed me royally but whatever.)

Meanwhile - the banks don't know squat. Nobody tells them (unless it is the relatives of the deceased). There's no "obituary" in the local papers or any other notification (unless you do it yourself).

Immediately after dad died I took his passport, bank book, ATM card and any other cards/ID/paperwork. At the time he had about 250k in a savings account and some other cash in a fixed term account. I had to leave to get back to work the day after the ceremony.

Everyday after he died, the bwitch was able to go to whatever branch she had a friend at and take 20k out of dad's account until it was empty. I had gone back to work thinking that because I had his bank stuff and passport, his account couldn't be accessed. Wrong ! It seems she is supposed to have his bankbook and a signed photocopy of his passport in order to take money out of his account (20k/day maximum) and they are supposed to phone him to verify it is a legitimate withdrawal.

But, T.I.T. and it seems she simply went back the bank, claimed she lost the bank book and they gave her a new one. She probably had photocopied a scan of dad's passport with his signature, had dozens of copies, and the bank probably never tried calling dad (not to mention that it seems she had been doing the same thing everyday for a couple weeks before he died too). I found out on my next trip back and when I went to a branch of the bank and asked how she was able to do that, the manager just kind of shrugged his shoulders and looked away. She had even gone back the day the last interest payment was made and scooped that as well !

Meanwhile - dad had a Will, but you have to wait 45 (or so) days after death before it can be reviewed by the court. Because of work in my case it was considerably longer than that). I had to get up in court, swear an oath and answer a couple questions. The court approves the will and I am able to dispose of dad's assets as per his instructions (including giving the bwitch 500k more !!).

It's a good bloody thing I was in country when he died.

So - let's see if I can shorten that down.

1) person dies (in hospital, natural causes, no foul play = no autopsy or police report required).

2) hospital makes death certificate, moves body to morgue.

3) death certificate has to be registered at local city hall

4) death certificate and passport to national's embassy - translate certificate, get certified copies (I recommend at least 10) and cancel passport.

5) get letter from embassy allowing disposal of the remains.

5a) if need be - have bank accounts frozen/locked, cancel phone, utilities, etc. Pack/move belongings if in rented accommodation.

6) make arrangements with temple (assuming cremation - if Buddhist/Muslim/etc then the appropriate temple will know the what/how to do's.)

7) funeral ceremony (simple or prolonged) and final disposal of remains.

8) notify appropriate authorities in home country - many will required certified copies of death certificate and in some cases, certified copies of the Will as well.

8) Verify the Will (45 days after death - assuming the Will and assets are in Thailand)

9) disposal of assets.

10) someone told me that after a certain period of time (180 days ?) there is supposed to be another small ceremony of some kind for some reason. I'm pretty sure I missed it, just as I'm pretty sure dear old dad probably wasn't too fussed about it either. Besides, I'm sure his spirit knows that if he tries to haunt my @ass - he'll never be getting any more "offerings" again !

In my case, I had to wait until the following summer before my next trip back to Canada. I had to get a lawyer there to handle the verification of the Will there so that I could be "officially" deemed the heir and executor of the Will. Then I had to contact all the government agencies, banks, phone company, etc. (You have to cancel pension payments, apply for survivor benefits, halt payments, transfer land deeds, pay taxes, close accounts and so on - 3 1/2 years later and I'm still dealing with stuff, but that is mostly because I am still also working out side of the country and there is a long delay before I even know there's something that needs to be dealt with).

There are procedures for transporting human remains back to one's home country. The embassy in question will have those details as they differ from one country to another.

Also not that land is in scarce supply in Thailand, so there are not many cemeteries or plots available to bury anyone. I'm not sure how the Muslims handle things but can find out easily enough if need be.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Kerryd

[ABCer]

I can see the WAT and its chimney from my window.

Went there to have a look. All looks decent. They (monks) even opened the door of the cremation compartment to inspect it.

I am satisfied that they use gas. Remains (ashes) are to be put in the sea.

Not being in a hurry but ready to go any time. No big drama but definitely do not want pain or prolonged suffering. Any recommendations for this?

[RedQualia]

FWIW, there's a book that discusses this matter a bit -- "Thai Law for Foreigners," by Benjawan Poomsan Becker and Roengsak Thongkaew. I can't say that it's the most definitive book on Thai law around. Maybe, but I haven't looked at/don't know of any others, and don't know that this the best in any case. Besides, it's a few years old now. Regardless, there's a section on the death of foreigners, and it talks about what must be done to repatriate remains and such. Doesn't sound like much fun. Specially certified (expensive?) embalmers, specially designed (expensive?) coffins or shipping containers, etc. Another small section on Buddhist funerals, another on wills. Other sections on going to court in Thailand, of course, and divorce, and marriage, and starting a business, and yada yada yada. Can't say that I've looked at it for a very long time, but I have gone through most sections. My will says the embassy should bugger off, and that I'm to be burned out in the countryside. What my wife does with the remains will be up to her, of course. Barbecue, perhaps, or maybe the folks who sell dog meat would want the remains. I won't be around to care, of course.

http://www.amazon.com/Thai-Law-Foreigners-System-Explained/dp/1887521577/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1400064992&sr=8-1&keywords=thai+law+for+foreigners

[speedtripler]

I can see the WAT and its chimney from my window.

Went there to have a look. All looks decent. They (monks) even opened the door of the cremation compartment to inspect it.

I am satisfied that they use gas. Remains (ashes) are to be put in the sea.

Not being in a hurry but ready to go any time. No big drama but definitely do not want pain or prolonged suffering. Any recommendations for this?

ever tried painkillers?

[ultimate weapon]

Guys what if you're not a thai citizen and you die in thailand and somehow they cannot contact a family member. Where does the body go?

[cooked]

I can see the WAT and its chimney from my window.

Went there to have a look. All looks decent. They (monks) even opened the door of the cremation compartment to inspect it.

I am satisfied that they use gas. Remains (ashes) are to be put in the sea.

Not being in a hurry but ready to go any time. No big drama but definitely do not want pain or prolonged suffering. Any recommendations for this?

ever tried painkillers?

You may need morphine and they severely restrict its use in Thailand .

[ultimate weapon]

I can see the WAT and its chimney from my window.

Went there to have a look. All looks decent. They (monks) even opened the door of the cremation compartment to inspect it.

I am satisfied that they use gas. Remains (ashes) are to be put in the sea.

Not being in a hurry but ready to go any time. No big drama but definitely do not want pain or prolonged suffering. Any recommendations for this?

wow ready to go any time. Peace with yourself.

[arjunadawn]

"The brain still function for few hours after dead and his last wish is important to fulfill so that he can really can rest in peace of mind".

Sorry, absolute nonsense....5 minutes after death or lack of oxygen the brain dies & starts to rot!!

Yea, I was unsure if the poster meant brain functions for few hours figuratively, so I hesitated. Clinical death occurs upon cessation of breathing and heart. Biological death, on average, occurs 4-5 minutes later (excepting highly unusual circumstances). I still wonder if poster meant figuratively the brain remains as in while deceased navigates Bardo of the dead.