Junta wants reforms done quickly

[Lite Beer]

Junta wants reforms done quickly
The Sunday Nation

BANGKOK: -- Top Defence official says too much debate could prolong the NCPO's stay before a poll

Permanent secretary of defence General Surasak Kanchanarat yesterday urged the soon-to-be-formed National Reform Council to quickly propose measures so the military junta could leave the scene as scheduled.

Surasak said his team had earmarked "five to six" topics covering political reform issues.

"If the reform council has other issues they can add them. But do not debate too much, as it will be time consuming and will make the National Council for Peace and Order [NCPO] stay [in power] longer," he said.

"And when it stays longer, there will be people who despise [it] and cause difficulties.

"I acknowledge that the NCPO is not a very pretty thing for a democratic system. There are people who say the NCPO should stay in power for five to 10 years but if we stay that long then we all will die of old age. Let's not stay that long but let us stay in accordance with the roadmap of the NCPO leader."

The general, who is part of the ruling junta, was speaking at a seminar on reform hosted by the Defence Ministry in collaboration with King Prajadhipok Institute (KPI).

The 700 people from eight local administrative organisations who attended the seminar were asked to answer five major reform questions.

_ What kind of parliament will be suitable for Thailand and should the lower House and upper House be elected or partly appointed and how should they be scrutinise and impeached, and should they belong to a political party or not?

_ How should political parties be reformed to make them truly mass-based with people's participation and not just a political party belonging to a person or a few people?

_ Should a system of directly electing the prime minister be adopted and would it be suitable in the current political situation?

_ How should politicians be fairly scrutinised and impeached.

_ Should the title of Bangkok governor be changed because they are elected?

Thawilwadee Bureekul, director of KPI's Research and Development Office, said the questions were honed so that the participants could make a meaningful contribution to the process.

Surasak, who gave the opening speech at the seminar, said that by listening to various sectors he had discovered that political reform was the main highlight of the national reform process followed by how to tackle graft and corruption, and reforming the bureaucracy.

He added that political reform included deciding how politicians should be chosen, scrutinised and punished.

Surasak said many people thought the National Anti-Corruption Commission was too slow in prosecuting bad people but there was also the danger of convicting innocent people.

He stressed that decentralisation was important but he had no details on how it should proceed.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Junta-wants-reforms-done-quickly-30237851.html

-- The Nation 2014-07-06

[timewilltell]

How many times have we heard these speeches about tackling corruption?

Yet day after day we read stories that the corrupt will be weeded out and transferred to an inactive post. If Thailand wants to rid itself of corruption (well most of it), you have a policy of prosecution and punishment not a game of musical chairs.

It is not that those in power do not understand it! They do for look at the drug laws and sentencing. Why is the law so harsh for relatively minor use? I suggest the reason is because there is a mentality that drugs are truly evil and should be eradicated although sure the laws are also used for less altruistic reasons.

Yet there are laws against corruption which is hard for individuals to prove, yet after going through all the effort of exposing these people, they serve no jail time. Often the corruption is really treasonous involving such huge sums of the national treasury. It is a truly evil thing, affects every Thai every day and yet is treated with disdain.

As for political reform, there will need to be educational reform before much headway is made with the politicians since most of the candidates seem to be mentally challenged. Simple beliefs and ideology is not enough if there is an ill educated and naive brain behind it since such people have no capacity for debate and reason and are incapable of rationalization.

If the public, who are in a similar state of confusion and brainwashed in the corrupt operation of society as the norm, have such people offered up for election, what hope is there? Add to that a muzzled press through the defamation laws and external reassures and threats and the public cannot even get informed in the extremely unlikely event that they even wanted to.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

[Thailand]

Wheels falling off?

Scary article on Reuters but cannot quote.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Thailand

[lostsoul49]

Straight away this seems to be totally falling apart.

The worst thing you can do is to rush reforms through, they will FAIL. Reforms need to take as long as they take to make sure they get it right.

No mention of the proper need for reforms such as education, police corruption and the double standard judiciary.

Reform the police and make ALL incidences of corruption carry a mandatory prison sentence... transfer???.... what a joke, that is no deterrent whatsoever. They should be totally disgraced, lose their assets and their pension as well as seeing the inside of prison.

Also have a body to scrutinize ALL judicial decisions to look for discrepancies between rich and poor offenders to keep a level field in sentencing.

Also start sacking the school directors whose schools under perform and make it a prisonable offence for a director or parent to be involved in paying for school places under the table.

Then attack nepotism in the workplace head on, and enforce a 'best man for the job' policy nationwide INCLUDING THE POLICE FORCE.

Anyone caught selecting a person for the job based on cash under the table to get a mandatory prison sentence along with the interviewee.

Finally (and probably the most important.

Open up a huge provincial wing of the NACC to have offices in EVERY province where the public can directly report any incident of corruption by police, government officials, civil servants and educators..... etc. Where they can remain anonymous and are entitled to a full report on the outcome of their accusation.

It would also help if ordinary people who have a bit of natural intelligence can scrutinize the reform process and the committee to make sure they are not just serving themselves, because I have a suspicion that all those selected to roll out these reforms will likely be very influential people, and I have come to learn that the main influential people in Thailand are almost always corrupt, so it would be like giving the fox the keys to the hen house.

Just my thoughts.

[NeverSure]

If they were serious, there wouldn't also be an article today about how they want to enable borrowing money from a bank so that farmers can pay off loans to loan sharks.

If they were serious the loan sharks would be collecting nothing except a prison sentence.

[tim armstrong]

There seems to be a lot of generalisations out there - ' the main influential people in Thailand are almost always corrupt', or 'most political candidates are mentally challenged'. Thailand is not a western democracy, the thinking is different, legal principles are different, the social structure is different, so the way to govern the country will be something that suits Thai people - not westerners. We may not like nepotism, but much of business is tied into very long standing family connections and obligations. All the talk about Thailand going down the gurgler is nonsense. It has a strong economy, and has survived various recent world downturns rather well.

The current military government clearly doesn't fit the stereotype view of the US and others,- tough ! It takes time to make the changes being raised, and maybe its about time for some of us to support and give credit for what,s happening, and stop the meaningless criticisms.

[Valentine]

If they were serious, there wouldn't also be an article today about how they want to enable borrowing money from a bank so that farmers can pay off loans to loan sharks.

If they were serious the loan sharks would be collecting nothing except a prison sentence.

Could end up being a vicious circle. Once loan sharks are paid then the bank borrower will have no money again & may have to resort back to the shark. Make the loan sharks official by having them on a register, everyone including officialdom must know who they are, & ensure they only charge fair interest. Any loan sharks operating outside of this system should be punished by confiscation of money & assets.

[NeverSure]

There seems to be a lot of generalisations out there - ' the main influential people in Thailand are almost always corrupt', or 'most political candidates are mentally challenged'. Thailand is not a western democracy, the thinking is different, legal principles are different, the social structure is different, so the way to govern the country will be something that suits Thai people - not westerners. We may not like nepotism, but much of business is tied into very long standing family connections and obligations. All the talk about Thailand going down the gurgler is nonsense. It has a strong economy, and has survived various recent world downturns rather well.

The current military government clearly doesn't fit the stereotype view of the US and others,- tough ! It takes time to make the changes being raised, and maybe its about time for some of us to support and give credit for what,s happening, and stop the meaningless criticisms.

The first stage of a fascist military dictatorship is enthusiasm. The second stage is "well, give them more time."

There are five stages. Sounds like you're in the second stage.

[Mentors]

The Clock is ticking...

[chainarong]

Old habits die hard , as predicted, within six months all the good work will be undone and the status quo will remain, Thailand will not progress , short cuts in the reforms are not an alternative, you must get all the reforms across all area's done right and therein lies the problem , done right is not a great number when it comes to anything concerned with Thailand., the only way for reforms to be done is the right way , never mind how long it takes.

[FangFerang]

tim armstrong claims to be Thai, then said "It takes time to make the changes being raised, and maybe its about time for some of us to support and give credit for what,s happening, and stop the meaningless criticisms."

Meaningless criticisms? What Thai planet are you from? There are some good changes, but they are very thin and vague.

If a man builds me a good house with terrible windows and doors, and I say "The doors and windows are terrible." I am not lying, and am worried about intruders, the weather and have a reasonable criticism.

[Bender]

of course they want these reforms done as soon as possible, as they can run not their joke/circus/comedy any longer,

within a few months this country will be completely broke...

[Paulzed]

"I acknowledge that the NCPO is not a very pretty thing for a democratic system. There are people who say the NCPO should stay in power for five to 10 years but if we stay that long then we all will die of old age. Let's not stay that long but let us stay in accordance with the roadmap of the NCPO leader."

If the Junta is serious about reform and a complete overhaul of the corruption and the laws to punish the corrupt politicians

and re direction of this rotten culture and a new constitution to protect these new changes, if it takes one hundred years then the junta will need to stay in power for one hundred years or how ever long it takes to change.

The whole point of democratic elections is for the people to vote for a government to run the country for the people and for the benefit of the people, the previous system didn't do this.

So I think that the Junta needs to stay in power until the culture is changed, the new constitution is carved in stone and the new system is accepted by all, regardless if they will grow old during the process.

just my opinion.

[Valentine]

of course they want these reforms done as soon as possible, as they can run not their joke/circus/comedy any longer,

within a few months this country will be completely broke...

Please explain why you think the country will be broke, Current loans as a percentage of GDP are not that high. By stopping the rice scam quite a large sum of money will be saved there alone.

[jpeg]

There seems to be a lot of generalisations out there - ' the main influential people in Thailand are almost always corrupt', or 'most political candidates are mentally challenged'. Thailand is not a western democracy, the thinking is different, legal principles are different, the social structure is different, so the way to govern the country will be something that suits Thai people - not westerners. We may not like nepotism, but much of business is tied into very long standing family connections and obligations. All the talk about Thailand going down the gurgler is nonsense. It has a strong economy, and has survived various recent world downturns rather well.

The current military government clearly doesn't fit the stereotype view of the US and others,- tough ! It takes time to make the changes being raised, and maybe its about time for some of us to support and give credit for what,s happening, and stop the meaningless criticisms.

Agreed. Believe this http://tinyurl.com/khz62e5 should be required reading for all those living here and wanting to stop banging their heads against a brick wall

[h90]

If the army goes away before everything is fixed like they did after the last coup, exactly the same problems will happen in 5 years again.

Stay 2, 3, 4 years and make the job perfect.

[Thailand]

If the army goes away before everything is fixed like they did after the last coup, exactly the same problems will happen in 5 years again.

Stay 2, 3, 4 years and make the job perfect.

I am sure they would love to. Many of them looking very comfortable in their new positions.

[tim armstrong]

There seems to be a lot of generalisations out there - ' the main influential people in Thailand are almost always corrupt', or 'most political candidates are mentally challenged'. Thailand is not a western democracy, the thinking is different, legal principles are different, the social structure is different, so the way to govern the country will be something that suits Thai people - not westerners. We may not like nepotism, but much of business is tied into very long standing family connections and obligations. All the talk about Thailand going down the gurgler is nonsense. It has a strong economy, and has survived various recent world downturns rather well.

The current military government clearly doesn't fit the stereotype view of the US and others,- tough ! It takes time to make the changes being raised, and maybe its about time for some of us to support and give credit for what,s happening, and stop the meaningless criticisms.

The first stage of a fascist military dictatorship is enthusiasm. The second stage is "well, give them more time."

There are five stages. Sounds like you're in the second stage.

Thailand has had many military coups. How many have transformed into long term military dictatorships in the past 50 years ? History speaks for itself.

[rubl]

Wheels falling off?

Scary article on Reuters but cannot quote.

You mean some report even worse than the OP from general Surasak's

""I acknowledge that the NCPO is not a very pretty thing for a democratic system"

[h90]

If the army goes away before everything is fixed like they did after the last coup, exactly the same problems will happen in 5 years again.

Stay 2, 3, 4 years and make the job perfect.

I am sure they would love to. Many of them looking very comfortable in their new positions.

If they do a good job and aren't corrupt, or even just the 5-10% which isn't considered as corruption in Thailand, they can be there for a long time......only good.

Better than Thaksin or the corrupt Dinosaurs like Barnharn and Chavalit or the ice-cream gang around Abhisit which has no clue what to do.

[tim armstrong]

tim armstrong claims to be Thai, then said "It takes time to make the changes being raised, and maybe its about time for some of us to support and give credit for what,s happening, and stop the meaningless criticisms."

Meaningless criticisms? What Thai planet are you from? There are some good changes, but they are very thin and vague.

If a man builds me a good house with terrible windows and doors, and I say "The doors and windows are terrible." I am not lying, and am worried about intruders, the weather and have a reasonable criticism.

Unless I have a dark family secret, then for sure I have no claims to be Thai. But, I have lived, worked and retired here long enough to make some observations, which may not be supported by others. As for the thin and vague changes, I would say that paying the farmers and sorting out the rice industry is very specific and far from vague. As to your 'house problem' I suggest you get a new builder, and stop worrying about the weather as you can't change that.

[rubl]

If they were serious, there wouldn't also be an article today about how they want to enable borrowing money from a bank so that farmers can pay off loans to loan sharks.

If they were serious the loan sharks would be collecting nothing except a prison sentence.

Interesting subject really. Some 'loan sharks' are relatives, some local bosses / elite, some related to other 'influencial' figures. In a way the 'load shark' idea seems embedded as of cultural value in Thailand.

Various governments and especially the previous one had started banks and special schemes to help poor farmers. All schemes by the previous government may have cost the Thai nation 1 trillion Baht in hardly more than two years and the farmers lot hasn't improved. Special loans from banks and maybe even the 'village funds' seems to have had no effect, still the need to turn to other money sources.

It seems there's something structurally wrong which needs to be tackled to reduce or even eliminate the need for loan sharks.

As for charging loan sharks, good idea, assuming there's a proper legal base for it. Mind you, the 'innocent till found guilty' might mean the poor farmers are still obliged to repay with interest as long as no verdict has been reached. Maybe the court can impose a moratorium on debt payments related to people charged ?

[rubl]

The first stage of a fascist military dictatorship is enthusiasm. The second stage is "well, give them more time."

There are five stages. Sounds like you're in the second stage.

Thailand has had many military coups. How many have transformed into long term military dictatorships in the past 50 years ? History speaks for itself.

Please enlighten me, how many in the last 50 years, and even more relevant how many in the last 25 years?

[fab4]

"I acknowledge that the NCPO is not a very pretty thing for a democratic system. There are people who say the NCPO should stay in power for five to 10 years but if we stay that long then we all will die of old age. Let's not stay that long but let us stay in accordance with the roadmap of the NCPO leader."

Just as long as everybody realises part of that roadmap states that once the junta have "left the scene" they still reserve the right to have power over the interim government. If that is the case how can the interim government end this "arrangement"? Answer, they can't - the timescale is purely at the whim of the junta.

Tony Benn's " Democratic Question Number 5 " comes to mind;

"In the course of my life I have developed five little democratic questions. If one meets a powerful person - Adolf Hitler, Joe Stalin or Bill Gates - ask them five questions"...........

"............ and how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system."

[fab4]

The first stage of a fascist military dictatorship is enthusiasm. The second stage is "well, give them more time."

There are five stages. Sounds like you're in the second stage.

Thailand has had many military coups. How many have transformed into long term military dictatorships in the past 50 years ? History speaks for itself.

Please enlighten me, how many in the last 50 years, and even more relevant how many in the last 25 years?

Seeing as you asked, and are seemingly unable to use a search engine yourself, there have been 6 coups in the last 50 years, 3 in the past 25 years. And that's just the successful ones, if you can call a coup a "success".

[rubl]

"I acknowledge that the NCPO is not a very pretty thing for a democratic system. There are people who say the NCPO should stay in power for five to 10 years but if we stay that long then we all will die of old age. Let's not stay that long but let us stay in accordance with the roadmap of the NCPO leader."

Just as long as everybody realises part of that roadmap states that once the junta have "left the scene" they still reserve the right to have power over the interim government. If that is the case how can the interim government end this "arrangement"? Answer, they can't - the timescale is purely at the whim of the junta.

Tony Benn's " Democratic Question Number 5 " comes to mind;

"In the course of my life I have developed five little democratic questions. If one meets a powerful person - Adolf Hitler, Joe Stalin or Bill Gates - ask them five questions"...........

"............ and how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system."

Just as long as people realise that when talking of 'leaving the scene' the NCPO means once the general elections have been held. October 2015 I think the NCPO had said?

I'm surprised, my dear fabs, that of all people you need to have this explained

[NeverSure]

If they were serious, there wouldn't also be an article today about how they want to enable borrowing money from a bank so that farmers can pay off loans to loan sharks.

If they were serious the loan sharks would be collecting nothing except a prison sentence.

Interesting subject really. Some 'loan sharks' are relatives, some local bosses / elite, some related to other 'influencial' figures. In a way the 'load shark' idea seems embedded as of cultural value in Thailand.

Various governments and especially the previous one had started banks and special schemes to help poor farmers. All schemes by the previous government may have cost the Thai nation 1 trillion Baht in hardly more than two years and the farmers lot hasn't improved. Special loans from banks and maybe even the 'village funds' seems to have had no effect, still the need to turn to other money sources.

It seems there's something structurally wrong which needs to be tackled to reduce or even eliminate the need for loan sharks.

As for charging loan sharks, good idea, assuming there's a proper legal base for it. Mind you, the 'innocent till found guilty' might mean the poor farmers are still obliged to repay with interest as long as no verdict has been reached. Maybe the court can impose a moratorium on debt payments related to people charged ?

One answer is that Thai farming is run by cartels. The farmer has to buy seed, chemicals and fertilizer - all from price fixing cartels. Then he has to sell his harvest to a cartel which fixes the price.

Small farmers can avoid some of that by if nothing else selling at a road stand and night markets. Some can be sold to locals. But that works only for a very small farmer.

Will the cartels be broken? Will farming become a truly free enterprise? Or, is there too much money and influence within the cartels to kill the golden goose?

I don't see the big money being torn down. Not the loan sharks or the cartels. The proposals are to make bank loans and further drain the same government bank that's hit with the rice scheme to allow the farmers to pay off the loan sharks. How do the vicious loan sharks get such a deal? This is a dictatorship, innit? Rather than reward them, tear them down. No? Why?

[rubl]

The first stage of a fascist military dictatorship is enthusiasm. The second stage is "well, give them more time."

There are five stages. Sounds like you're in the second stage.

Thailand has had many military coups. How many have transformed into long term military dictatorships in the past 50 years ? History speaks for itself.

Please enlighten me, how many in the last 50 years, and even more relevant how many in the last 25 years?

Seeing as you asked, and are seemingly unable to use a search engine yourself, there have been 6 coups in the last 50 years, 3 in the past 25 years. And that's just the successful ones, if you can call a coup a "success".

The question from TA was "How many have transformed into long term military dictatorships"

[northernjohn]

How many times have we heard these speeches about tackling corruption?

Yet day after day we read stories that the corrupt will be weeded out and transferred to an inactive post. If Thailand wants to rid itself of corruption (well most of it), you have a policy of prosecution and punishment not a game of musical chairs.

It is not that those in power do not understand it! They do for look at the drug laws and sentencing. Why is the law so harsh for relatively minor use? I suggest the reason is because there is a mentality that drugs are truly evil and should be eradicated although sure the laws are also used for less altruistic reasons.

Yet there are laws against corruption which is hard for individuals to prove, yet after going through all the effort of exposing these people, they serve no jail time. Often the corruption is really treasonous involving such huge sums of the national treasury. It is a truly evil thing, affects every Thai every day and yet is treated with disdain.

As for political reform, there will need to be educational reform before much headway is made with the politicians since most of the candidates seem to be mentally challenged. Simple beliefs and ideology is not enough if there is an ill educated and naive brain behind it since such people have no capacity for debate and reason and are incapable of rationalization.

If the public, who are in a similar state of confusion and brainwashed in the corrupt operation of society as the norm, have such people offered up for election, what hope is there? Add to that a muzzled press through the defamation laws and external reassures and threats and the public cannot even get informed in the extremely unlikely event that they even wanted to.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

To be honest with you what you say sounds nice in principal.

How ever the reality is it will take two generations before the school system can start to turn out educated people capable of thinking and reasoning. first they have to find the professors to teach the future teachers how to teach or if you wish impart knowledge and the ability to reach a conclusion by reasoning it out and being logical.

The present system for change has been leaning more to punch in a question to a computer with no emotions and no consideration for humans.

[rubl]

If they were serious, there wouldn't also be an article today about how they want to enable borrowing money from a bank so that farmers can pay off loans to loan sharks.

If they were serious the loan sharks would be collecting nothing except a prison sentence.

Interesting subject really. Some 'loan sharks' are relatives, some local bosses / elite, some related to other 'influencial' figures. In a way the 'load shark' idea seems embedded as of cultural value in Thailand.

Various governments and especially the previous one had started banks and special schemes to help poor farmers. All schemes by the previous government may have cost the Thai nation 1 trillion Baht in hardly more than two years and the farmers lot hasn't improved. Special loans from banks and maybe even the 'village funds' seems to have had no effect, still the need to turn to other money sources.

It seems there's something structurally wrong which needs to be tackled to reduce or even eliminate the need for loan sharks.

As for charging loan sharks, good idea, assuming there's a proper legal base for it. Mind you, the 'innocent till found guilty' might mean the poor farmers are still obliged to repay with interest as long as no verdict has been reached. Maybe the court can impose a moratorium on debt payments related to people charged ?

One answer is that Thai farming is run by cartels. The farmer has to buy seed, chemicals and fertilizer - all from price fixing cartels. Then he has to sell his harvest to a cartel which fixes the price.

Small farmers can avoid some of that by if nothing else selling at a road stand and night markets. Some can be sold to locals. But that works only for a very small farmer.

Will the cartels be broken? Will farming become a truly free enterprise? Or, is there too much money and influence within the cartels to kill the golden goose?

I don't see the big money being torn down. Not the loan sharks or the cartels. The proposals are to make bank loans and further drain the same government bank that's hit with the rice scheme to allow the farmers to pay off the loan sharks. How do the vicious loan sharks get such a deal? This is a dictatorship, innit? Rather than reward them, tear them down. No? Why?

Actually this isn't a dictatorship although some would like it to have more 'internationally growing alarm'.

Now to suggest that people should be 'torn down' or as you previously wrote "collect a prison sentence" without some form of process seems a bit strange. I agree loans sharks should be prosecuted and when found to demand exorbitant interest rates sentenced to jailtime, assuming that's possible with Thai laws as they are. A suspension of debt payment to people accused of 'loan sharking', refusing bail seems unlawful though.

In the mean time those loan sharks seem to fulfill a useful niche in Thai society. A place to go when you can go nowhere else. Now by removing the place to go you do not solve the underlaying problem. That's where the government could be of help. Mind you all the 'debt moratoria', extra loan facilities, 'subsidies' and whatever, do not seem to have made a real impact. At times it seems exactly the opposite. The Yingluck government spent almost a trillion Baht in slightly more than two years and farmers only got poorer. Allegedly that is, only when you ask people rabidly against Yingluck, Pheu Thai and their golf caddy of course.