Visa for Real (Long stay) Tourists...

[LivinLOS]

I for one can't retire here for another 4 years(65). I usually come on Triples I don't work here.I stay at the GF's Apt.and travel around Thailand as much as feasible while trying to pinpoint my ideal retirement spot. I'm from the states so I come in the winter months September-May .I go back for 4 months and repeat,I'm just under the 180 per calender year.I'm confident that the Thai Immigration is mainly out for the visa exempt violators and illegal workers .I also think they will be implementing more requirements(proof of finaces and Itinerary) for long stay tourists visa's .My feelings about.this Elite Visa is not a option(500k) for me and most people I suppose if they dropped it down to 250K it would be reasonable

I like your post on finality .

The moment they give a clear indication is the moment I'll relax. Whatever the answer is, whether long term genuine (i.e. non-working) tourists will be limited to a single entry, a double entry or entirely unaffected by the crackdown

If you are a "long stay tourist" staying over 180 days in country in a calendar year, that seems to classify you as a "resident" for tax purposes. That means any money you bring into Thailand seems to be taxable, whether you work in Thailand or not.

I can see a problem of fairness (and revenue) making it clearer and easier for people to stay longer than 180 days, yet not classify them as residents and tax the money they bring in to the country.

If you're a "tourist" by the tax definition, staying less than 180 days, all you're taxed on is the money you've made in Thailand, which of course, is zero- since you can't work as a genuine tourist. So it seems that there is a problem defining anyone staying over 180 days a year as a tourist, even if they are non-working.

(For the over 50 retirement crowd, pension benefits earned in previous years don't seem to fit into the 8 classifications of taxable income listed below- whew. And for the 28/28 oilfield people, just a few of their days off spent outside Thailand will keep them in the non-resident category.)

1.Taxable Person

Taxpayers are classified into resident and non-resident. Resident means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand.

2.TAX BASE

2.1 Assessable Income

Assessable income is divided into 8 categories as follows :

-income from personal services rendered to employers;

-income by virtue of jobs, positions or services rendered;

-income from goodwill, copyright, franchise, other rights, annuity or income in the nature of yearly payments derived from a will or any other juristic Act or judgment of the Court;

-income in the nature of dividends, interest on deposits with banks in Thailand, shares of profits or other benefits from a juristic company, juristic partnership, or mutual fund, payments received as a result of the reduction of capital, a bonus, an increased capital holdings, gains from amalgamation, acquisition or dissolution of juristic companies or partnerships, and gains from transferring of shares or partnership holdings;

-income from letting of property and from breaches of contracts, installment sales or hire-purchase contracts;

-income from liberal professions;

-income from construction and other contracts of work;

-income from business, commerce, agriculture, industry, transport or any other activity not specified earlier.

Source:http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

You are correctthey are not out to stop people with tourist visas, they're out to stop those abusing the visa exemptions. If and when their standards actually become standards the checkpoints adhere to, there shouldn't be dozens holding tourist visas turned away at the border. That would be a major step in the right direction if this actually happens. If you have an outbound ticket (like it or not), cash, proof of accommodation, and an itinerary you should be fine. This is what Immigration said to me.

If anyone has a problem with this, dunno what to tell you.

One thing I find strange is no one seems to care about the visa exemption extension being lengthened from 7 to 30 days. I guess everyone wants to live here but no one wants to come for 60 days.

Because, no offense meant. Until it's heard from someone official.. A sub 30 post posters claim is given some skepticism.

[ScottMallon]

The only reason I'm sub-30 is I've never had a reason to post. Knowing the pettiness that goes on here, I have instead lurked the vast majority of the time.

Your placing value on my sub-30 posts means very little and it's rather amusing. Like I said, I've been living in this country for nearly 20 years, legally, and if you did a little research you'd see I'm legit and well respected. I was also a photojournalist here for a dozen or so years and I worked with professional boxers for a number of years. There is a link on/in the video and on Facebook with photos of me sitting with these officials.

The official who informed me of this lengthened extension is the Deputy Superintendent of Sub-Division 2, Immigration Division 1. She is the one who deals with the time frames and coordination of the policies and their implementation.

Edited July 19, 2014 by ScottMallon

[balo]

Did they mention anything about ED visas? Will they start testing people at Thai language schools and other types of education that we can legally apply for?

[paz]

Did they mention anything about ED visas? Will they start testing people at Thai language schools and other types of education that we can legally apply for?

How anybody here can possibly know ?

[Christie Paul]

For few years, Thailand's architects behind its extraordinary success with tourism, guided policy with a deft touch. The place just boomed. Sure, it caused a few problems - but it became a major economic segment in an otherwise unremarkable economy. It was so successful, that people just wanted to stay here forever. The economic benefits multiplied.

These brilliant architects and their guiding philosophy are gone. Replaced with folks who, well, let's say, ummm, eeerm, aren't that talented.

If forty years someone told you that Detroit would be finished as car manufacturing mecca - you might not have believed it. But policy that was instituted decades ago was responsible for what we see there today.

Likewise, Thailand is at a particular very important juncture. World tourism is tanking, competition is more fierce that ever. Now is the time, to open the doors wide, make happy happy, welcome one, welcome all. Build upon every bit of good will that you can. Sadly, Thailand does just the opposite, alienating even its staunchest supporters.

Tourist authorities in Indonesia, Myanmar, Cambodia, Viet Nam and in a dozen other places will be smiling.

[AYJAYDEE]

For few years, Thailand's architects behind its extraordinary success with tourism, guided policy with a deft touch. The place just boomed. Sure, it caused a few problems - but it became a major economic segment in an otherwise unremarkable economy. It was so successful, that people just wanted to stay here forever. The economic benefits multiplied.

These brilliant architects and their guiding philosophy are gone. Replaced with folks who, well, let's say, ummm, eeerm, aren't that talented.

If forty years someone told you that Detroit would be finished as car manufacturing mecca - you might not have believed it. But policy that was instituted decades ago was responsible for what we see there today.

Likewise, Thailand is at a particular very important juncture. World tourism is tanking, competition is more fierce that ever. Now is the time, to open the doors wide, make happy happy, welcome one, welcome all. Build upon every bit of good will that you can. Sadly, Thailand does just the opposite, alienating even its staunchest supporters.

Tourist authorities in Indonesia, Myanmar, Cambodia, Viet Nam and in a dozen other places will be smiling.

all similar military types. they wont be any better. and as a world leader of agricultural and seafood products combined with a creditable auto, and garment industry etc , i question your use of "unremarkable"

Edited July 19, 2014 by AYJAYDEE

[JLCrab]

According to the UN WTO Thailand had 26.5 million 2013 international tourist arrivals up 18% from the prior year. Thailand is ranked 10th among all countries with France, USA, and Spain the top 3.

I would guess given the average length-if-stay numbers available that those who are affected by the current even abrupt change in entry/re-entry policy is a small component of that population.

[ScottMallon]

Did they mention anything about ED visas? Will they start testing people at Thai language schools and other types of education that we can legally apply for?

How anybody here can possibly know ?

They did mention the ED visa and I made it a point to discuss it. This is the next loophole they're going to tighten.

"The new commissioner has very concrete policies on the misuse of ED visa and also those who use medical reasons such as vertigo and high blood pressure to stay in Thailand."

There has already been testing but this is a subject I am going to get in deeper with them in the next few days.

I made mention of a friend living in Chiang Mai. He is 40, has enough money socked away to support himself here (but not enough for an elite card), and is on a multiple entry tourist visa. His tourist visa is going to expire and while they did say that people on tourist visas are not who they are after, my friend is uncomfortable trying to get another multiple entry and instead is going to opt for an ED Visa. The second in command of Immigration said, "This is not how we intended the ED visa to be used. Better he goes to Vientianne and tries to get another tourist visa." They were very clear about ED visas being used by "real" students and not people who simply use them to stay in the country. For now though, they're going to concentrate on those who continually enter with no visas.

[LivinLOS]

I made mention of a friend living in Chiang Mai. He is 40, has enough money socked away to support himself here (but not enough for an elite card), and is on a multiple entry tourist visa. His tourist visa is going to expire and while they did say that people on tourist visas are not who they are after, my friend is uncomfortable trying to get another multiple entry and instead is going to opt for an ED Visa. The second in command of Immigration said, "This is not how we intended the ED visa to be used. Better he goes to Vientianne and tries to get another tourist visa." They were very clear about ED visas being used by "real" students and not people who simply use them to stay in the country. For now though, they're going to concentrate on those who continually enter with no visas.

But if he goes to school and learns how can anyone say he isnt a real student..

They may not like that his motivation is primarily the visa over the education.. But defining peoples motives in a technical or legal sense is very difficult.

They have to accept that visa classes will be used to the full extent of their rules. It's up to them to define those rules.. Not too long.. Too many.. Too frequent.. Be a little less Thai and more German in their communication and language.

Edited July 20, 2014 by LivinLOS

[AYJAYDEE]

I made mention of a friend living in Chiang Mai. He is 40, has enough money socked away to support himself here (but not enough for an elite card), and is on a multiple entry tourist visa. His tourist visa is going to expire and while they did say that people on tourist visas are not who they are after, my friend is uncomfortable trying to get another multiple entry and instead is going to opt for an ED Visa. The second in command of Immigration said, "This is not how we intended the ED visa to be used. Better he goes to Vientianne and tries to get another tourist visa." They were very clear about ED visas being used by "real" students and not people who simply use them to stay in the country. For now though, they're going to concentrate on those who continually enter with no visas.

But if he goes to school and learns how can anyone say he isnt a real student..

They may not like that his motivation is primarily the visa over the education.. But defining peoples motives in a technical or legal sense is very difficult.

They have to accept that visa classes will be used to the full extent of their rules. It's up to them to define those rules.. Not too long.. Too many.. Too frequent.. Be a little less Thai and more German in their communication and language.

as a thai why should he act more german.? he knows the guy wants the visa for the wrong reason and has been given the authority to act on that instinct! they dont have to define a thing!

[JLCrab]

Just to note that, while a US citizen in Thailand requires 4 hours of class instruction to maintain an education visa, a Thai student in the US requires 18 hours per week of class study to maintain an education visa

[LivinLOS]

I made mention of a friend living in Chiang Mai. He is 40, has enough money socked away to support himself here (but not enough for an elite card), and is on a multiple entry tourist visa. His tourist visa is going to expire and while they did say that people on tourist visas are not who they are after, my friend is uncomfortable trying to get another multiple entry and instead is going to opt for an ED Visa. The second in command of Immigration said, "This is not how we intended the ED visa to be used. Better he goes to Vientianne and tries to get another tourist visa." They were very clear about ED visas being used by "real" students and not people who simply use them to stay in the country. For now though, they're going to concentrate on those who continually enter with no visas.

But if he goes to school and learns how can anyone say he isnt a real student..

They may not like that his motivation is primarily the visa over the education.. But defining peoples motives in a technical or legal sense is very difficult.

They have to accept that visa classes will be used to the full extent of their rules. It's up to them to define those rules.. Not too long.. Too many.. Too frequent.. Be a little less Thai and more German in their communication and language.

as a thai why should he act more german.? he knows the guy wants the visa for the wrong reason and has been given the authority to act on that instinct! they dont have to define a thing!

Why should rules be clearly defined and accurately understood ?? Do I even need to list the multitude of reasons ??

To reduce corruption opportunity in vague rules left to discretion.

To aid legitimate travelers trip planning.

To reduce stress and workload on those having to make judgement calls.

To clearly give those who bend the rules an absolute line in the sand that cannot be crossed..

Etc etc etc.

Really.. Don't let the knee jerk defense of anything Thai make you lose sight of the best way to define a clear and working system for all parties.

[AYJAYDEE]

I made mention of a friend living in Chiang Mai. He is 40, has enough money socked away to support himself here (but not enough for an elite card), and is on a multiple entry tourist visa. His tourist visa is going to expire and while they did say that people on tourist visas are not who they are after, my friend is uncomfortable trying to get another multiple entry and instead is going to opt for an ED Visa. The second in command of Immigration said, "This is not how we intended the ED visa to be used. Better he goes to Vientianne and tries to get another tourist visa." They were very clear about ED visas being used by "real" students and not people who simply use them to stay in the country. For now though, they're going to concentrate on those who continually enter with no visas.

But if he goes to school and learns how can anyone say he isnt a real student..

They may not like that his motivation is primarily the visa over the education.. But defining peoples motives in a technical or legal sense is very difficult.

They have to accept that visa classes will be used to the full extent of their rules. It's up to them to define those rules.. Not too long.. Too many.. Too frequent.. Be a little less Thai and more German in their communication and language.

as a thai why should he act more german.? he knows the guy wants the visa for the wrong reason and has been given the authority to act on that instinct! they dont have to define a thing!

Why should rules be clearly defined and accurately understood ?? Do I even need to list the multitude of reasons ??

To reduce corruption opportunity in vague rules left to discretion.

To aid legitimate travelers trip planning.

To reduce stress and workload on those having to make judgement calls.

To clearly give those who bend the rules an absolute line in the sand that cannot be crossed..

Etc etc etc.

Really.. Don't let the knee jerk defense of anything Thai make you lose sight of the best way to define a clear and working system for all parties.

thailand doesnt need you to tell them how to run their country.

[Sortapundit]

thailand doesnt need you to tell them how to run their country.

When a government has no clear, well-defined rules to govern who can enter the country, for how long and under what circumstances; when visitors with legitimate visas appropriate for the purpose of their visit are unsure if they will be allowed to cross a border, and when one immigration officer has the authority and lack of top-down guidance to interpret the rules differently to the officer working beside him, the argument that Thailand might need some help in this area isn't all that outlandish. Anyone who argues otherwise has failed to properly appreciate the problem.

[AYJAYDEE]

thailand doesnt need you to tell them how to run their country.

When a government has no clear, well-defined rules to govern who can enter the country, for how long and under what circumstances; when visitors with legitimate visas appropriate for the purpose of their visit are unsure if they will be allowed to cross a border, and when one immigration officer has the authority and lack of top-down guidance to interpret the rules differently to the officer working beside him, the argument that Thailand might need some help in this area isn't all that outlandish. Anyone who argues otherwise has failed to properly appreciate the problem.

because a country decides to manage its affairs in a way you dont like and feels no need to ask you for help, then perhaps it isnt the country for you. I have seen EXACTLY that same behaviour at the american border. spare me your western chauvinism

[JLCrab]

Per the 2 above quotes:

You are dealing here with a military junta which seized power by its own decree. They have decided to make changes in visa and immigration policy without any grace period. It will take them a while to formulate policy as clear, concise, and non-vague as some might wish.

Thailand is still under martial law.

Edited July 20, 2014 by JLCrab

[larsjohnsson]

So for a minimum cost stay - They can come in, transport around/chill in Thilaland for 6 months,

then visit, say Cambodia/Vietnam for 4/5 days, then come back for 180 days?

No tourist can get a visa to stay 6 months in Thailand. They have to leave the country and come back to stay that long.

[Sortapundit]

thailand doesnt need you to tell them how to run their country.

When a government has no clear, well-defined rules to govern who can enter the country, for how long and under what circumstances; when visitors with legitimate visas appropriate for the purpose of their visit are unsure if they will be allowed to cross a border, and when one immigration officer has the authority and lack of top-down guidance to interpret the rules differently to the officer working beside him, the argument that Thailand might need some help in this area isn't all that outlandish. Anyone who argues otherwise has failed to properly appreciate the problem.

because a country decides to manage its affairs in a way you dont like and feels no need to ask you for help, then perhaps it isnt the country for you. I have seen EXACTLY that same behaviour at the american border. spare me your western chauvinism

You know, not every criticism of a foreign nation's policies comes from a starting point of subtle racism and a misguided colonial attitude. Please don't fit me for a pith helmet. Sometimes it really is just a simple observation of 'Hey, these guys seem to be making a hash of things.'

As JLCrab said, it will take time to formulate a clear, workable visa policy, but in the meantime those in charge of building it might want to look for advice from other countries to help them find a good framework.

[larsjohnsson]

thailand doesnt need you to tell them how to run their country.

When a government has no clear, well-defined rules to govern who can enter the country, for how long and under what circumstances; when visitors with legitimate visas appropriate for the purpose of their visit are unsure if they will be allowed to cross a border, and when one immigration officer has the authority and lack of top-down guidance to interpret the rules differently to the officer working beside him, the argument that Thailand might need some help in this area isn't all that outlandish. Anyone who argues otherwise has failed to properly appreciate the problem.

What government ?

[Maroon Watcher]

Perhaps I should answer my own question and add a suggestion
(But it does include a degree of "follow-through")

To Prevent illegal workers / criminals

Long stay Tourists - Get a Double entry for 6 months, then 15 days before that visa ends,
apply for a new Double entry

(Involving an Exit for a minimum 5 days - Any country any transport method).

After that the Tourist must not enter Thailand for a further 6 months -
Except for 1 month as normal vacation/holiday 'Free' entry.

(No back-to-back. on that)

Then the rule starts from the beginning.

(To allow for a Pre- University Year, a Gap Year and a After University "year off").

If they were working or committing a crime, they could be banned from re-entry, and fined.

(Length and amount commensurate with "earnings")

[slipperylobster]

I bet Thailand made up their own idea of what a tourist is.

Here is what the World Tourist Organization says...

"traveling to and staying in places outside their usual environment for not more than one consecutive year for leisure, business and other purposes"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism

So..you see, long stayers can be tourists up to a year....according to everyone else, except Thailand. Notice that the above mentions leisure, business and other purposes.

Note that it uses the word 'places' as in plural -- not stay in one place outside, etc.

Still vague.., I am resident and fixed here on long stay..

In the last 2 weeks I have been "home" for 3 nights... The rest traveling in hotels, hanging out and having fun.. In another week I have nearly 3 weeks away scheduled.. All around Thailand..

Does that make me a tourist ? IMO no.. That's just the lifestyle of living here retired without kids..

You can be a tourist if you want to be....

Thai Immigration may disagree with your definition.

I consider a tourist as one who maintains a home/life/income/car/friends/family, ect...outside

of Thailand....no matter if you come here for a week or more than half a year.....

There is no clear cut time...internationally accepted...that you cease being a tourist.

If Thailand Immigration feels you been here too long, they simple say.... 30 days, too long...or whatever.

Then boom...you are denied entry.

[larsjohnsson]

Perhaps I should answer my own question and add a suggestion

(But it does include a degree of "follow-through")

To Prevent illegal workers / criminals

Long stay Tourists - Get a Double entry for 6 months, then 15 days before that visa ends,

apply for a new Double entry

(Involving an Exit for a minimum 5 days - Any country any transport method).

After that the Tourist must not enter Thailand for a further 6 months -

Except for 1 month as normal vacation/holiday 'Free' entry.

(No back-to-back. on that)

Then the rule starts from the beginning.

(To allow for a Pre- University Year, a Gap Year and a After University "year off").

If they were working or committing a crime, they could be banned from re-entry, and fined.

(Length and amount commensurate with "earnings")

I don't get the apply for a new visa 15 days before your visa ends?

And nearly everyone in my home country takes a " gap year or after university year" and most of them travel. Mostly as backpackers. But they never go to one country in Asia and stay a year in that country.

[Christie Paul]

I used to advise all my friends that this was the place to be. The Thais are totally cool, business things are happening. There's all kinds of investment opportunities. And some really interesting people from all the world are doing interesting things here.

I still advise all my friends to visit Thailand - the people are still excellent, great food, great climate and its still amazing.

But...

The opportunities to make Thailand a productive base are diminishing. Immigration is more hassle than its worth. Trying to run a company is a nightmare. And the pool of interesting international expats doing interesting things is on the decline. And unless your an investor who is able to participate at the uppermost levels - investing time, energy, ideas and money is increasingly risky.

[Maroon Watcher]

15 days before - so if their is a problem (Or Rule changes...) it can be sorted out before expiry.

Perhaps "within 15 days - the earlier the better"

And using the term "Back-Packers" was a generalisation to include people who just wanted to be in Thailand for Up to a year.

(I haven't been out of the country in over a year and know others who just visit airports or visa offices, to continue their easy beach life...)

Maybe they meet someone from Thailand or another country and are lucky enough to have funds to remain here -

what-ever

Perhaps I should answer my own question and add a suggestion
(But it does include a degree of "follow-through")

To Prevent illegal workers / criminals

Long stay Tourists - Get a Double entry for 6 months, then 15 days before that visa ends,
apply for a new Double entry
(Involving an Exit for a minimum 5 days - Any country any transport method).

After that the Tourist must not enter Thailand for a further 6 months -
Except for 1 month as normal vacation/holiday 'Free' entry.
(No back-to-back. on that)

Then the rule starts from the beginning.
(To allow for a Pre- University Year, a Gap Year and a After University "year off").

If they were working or committing a crime, they could be banned from re-entry, and fined.
(Length and amount commensurate with "earnings")

I don't get the apply for a new visa 15 days before your visa ends?

And nearly everyone in my home country takes a " gap year or after university year" and most of them travel. Mostly as backpackers. But they never go to one country in Asia and stay a year in that country.

[JLCrab]

I used to advise all my friends that this was the place to be. The Thais are totally cool, business things are happening. There's all kinds of investment opportunities. And some really interesting people from all the world are doing interesting things here.

I still advise all my friends to visit Thailand - the people are still excellent, great food, great climate and its still amazing.

But...

The opportunities to make Thailand a productive base are diminishing. Immigration is more hassle than its worth. Trying to run a company is a nightmare. And the pool of interesting international expats doing interesting things is on the decline. And unless your an investor who is able to participate at the uppermost levels - investing time, energy, ideas and money is increasingly risky.

So to where is the once large pool of interesting expats in Thailand and now looking to establish totally cool business things elsewhere relocating?

[Sortapundit]

And the pool of interesting international expats doing interesting things is on the decline.

You may very well be right, but I think it would be difficult to identify such a general, nationwide trend in a country that receives a huge number of long stay visitors, and any perceived trend would more likely be skewed by our own personal perspective. In the years since I started coming to Thailand I've made lots of close friends who were engaged in interesting business ventures, but on a long enough time scale most of these people will eventually leave. As a result it would be easy for me to look back on, say, 2011 as a golden age simply because I hung out with a lot of cool people who are no longer here, but any conclusion I drew from my personal experience would be flawed if I tried to apply it on a national scale.

If that makes any sense

It's much easier to draw such conclusions in smaller countries that receive only a fraction of the visitors. Mongolia, for instance, has in the last few years changed its foreign investment laws to make it a much less attractive prospect, and since there are only around 10,000 expats living in the country it's much easier to identify expat drain by looking at plummeting rental prices, vacant properties and empty expat-friendly bars. That can't really be seen in Thailand, because the numbers are just too high to draw any meaningful conclusions based on personal experience.

[JLCrab]

Gee! I used to think I was cool doing interesting things on the int'l creative / Access-To-Knowledge front but -- since I'm staying here in Thailand for the foreseeable future -- I guess I'll have to think otherwise.

Edited July 20, 2014 by JLCrab

[impulse]

And nearly everyone in my home country takes a " gap year or after university year" and most of them travel. Mostly as backpackers. But they never go to one country in Asia and stay a year in that country.

And most of them aren't older than dirt, bald or white haired, with 3 chins and 1 pack keg abs.

[impulse]

And the pool of interesting international expats doing interesting things is on the decline.

That's what happens when it develops to the point you can go from your home in the West to a bungalow on the (once isolated) island without ever getting out of the A/C for more than 50 meters or 2 minutes.

Edit: That is, of course, unfair to a lot of the guys and women I have met in Asia. But when I go to Swampy to pick anyone up, or wander around Asoke where I work, and watch the folks dressed like they've just stumbled out of their 3rd full moon party in 3 nights, I get a little jaded. Apologies.

Edited July 20, 2014 by impulse

[craigt3365]

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