Thousands march for Gaza in London, clashes in Paris over Israeli onslaught

[Morch]

 

 

 

In 1971 I travelled as a student through Israel and the West bank: an open border was between the Kingdom of Siam and the Kingdom of Lanna: students from all the world, inclusive Palestines: all young persons of the World.
The years later terrorist attacks, rockets, grenades from the Palestines towards the Israëli's In their manifest ( constitution): Israel must be wiped away, the jews driven into the see.
I wonder what would have been the attitude of the USA if Mexico, would behave like that, or on daily bases rockets were lunched from Laos to Nong Kai.
Even the Israelis do their utmost to protect also Palestinian civilians see the statement of a British general at the UN see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlmFc1R8evY&feature=youtube_gdata_player -, sorry, but 100% protection is impossible, especially when rockets are stored in schools, hospitals etc, see UNWRA school even. And you think, this is the only case ? ?
All recourses in Gaza are used for the military and NOT for schools, water supply, electricity etc as.. why should they, US and EU taxpayers money supports that already since 1948

Why do people bring up that pathetic excuse about what would the US do if Mexico or Canada was rocketing them? Fact is, the US hasn't occupied Mexico or Canada since 1948 and driven most of the population into exile. The Canadian and Mexican population aren't mainly refugees in crowded camps. They have no reason to rocket the US.

The reason for the rockets is the illegal occupation and the collective punishment of people that weren't even born in 1948.

Burning israeli flags on the streets of European cities and applauding crowds show that while israel might win the war, it is losing the battle for public support throughout the world.

Sew the wind, reap the whirlwind.

<see the statement of a British general at the UN >
Who would believe any western establishment figure, ESPECIALLY at the UN? They are all pro israeli.

 

 

So you morally justify the shoot of Hamas on innocent Israeli population?
What Illegal occupation?

Last time I checked, the Gazans got their land back on 2005: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

As for the UN, it has been consistently pro Palestinian since the establishment of the state of Israel on 1948.

But don't let the facts get in your way.
 

 

The illegal occupation of the west bank. Just because a Palestinian lives in Gaza, does not mean that he doesn't care about Palestinians in the west bank. A Palestinian is a Palestinian whether he lives in Gaza, in the west bank, in London, in New York or next door to you.

 

I don't support anyone trying to kill anyone else, and I even agree that the israelis should respond to rocket fire with lethal force. However, I understand WHY the Palestinians are trying to kill israelis. What I don't support is the excessive use of israeli military power to indiscriminatly attack residential areas of Gaza.

As a missile from a drone can be guided with pinpoint accuracy to a target, they could be used to attack rocket launch sites. The israelis know exactly where the rockets are being launched, and drones over Gaza could respond in seconds. Instead, the israelis are using artillery shells and bombs with huge explosive power that inevitably cause civilian casualties. A shell is unguided and is not completely accurate.

 

 

Of course there is solidarity between the Palestinians, quite understandable and expected. Not sure how this works out when it comes to identifying with leadership (as opposed to the people) and how should this be tackled, or indeed, if it merits tackling at all.

 

That said, peaks in rocket fire from the Gaza Strip usually coincide with IDF actions in the Gaza Strip, IDF actions in the West Bank directed against Hamas, and developments in negotiations between Israel and the PA. As far as I can recall, there is no clear correlation with Israeli announcements regarding further building and expansion related to them illegal settlements in the West Bank.

 

I think that there is some exaggeration or misconceptions about how accurate Israeli weapons can get under the current conditions. Same goes for the ability to control or minimize collateral damage even when employing precision armaments. As for artillery being unguided....there have been a few developments in this field since the first cannon fired. While this does not apply to all Israeli attacks, it also does not mean all are indiscriminate.

 

The above means very little when one sees the extent of the destruction or the death toll among civilians, for sure. It does not make deaths of non-combatants right, or moral - it is, sadly, what war looks like.
 

Edited July 28, 2014 by Scott

[Morch]

 

 

 

Where are the roads and rail, the industry and infrastructure of the new Palestinian state? Nowhere. Instead, they built mile upon mile of underground tunnels to hide their weapons and, when the going gets tough, their military commanders. They spent millions importing and producing rockets, launchers, mortars, small arms, even drones. They deliberately placed them in schools, hospitals, mosques and private homes to better expose their own civilians. 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-moral-clarity-in-gaza/2014/07/17/0adabe0c-0de4-11e4-8c9a-923ecc0c7d23_story.html

How exactly are they supposed to build anything let alone a railway! It just goes to show how out of touch that guy is with the reality of daily life in Gaza.
The are denied construction materials and equipment plus most of the day to day item we take for granted.

The damage done by the Israeli army can not be repaired without cement which is an item banned by Netanyahu and his cronies.

Nothing is allowed to enter or leave the area without Israel's approval.

 

 

The blockade was not in place to begin with, and it was not brought about out of context, the way some try to present.

 

Obviously Hamas had enough building materials to build an impressive array of underground tunnels and facilities, and the last time I checked rockets were made of metal. Building materials were not always banned, and were declared as dual use materials only at a latter stage. A more thorough ban came into place as things got out of hand.

 

To make things a bit clearer - Israel still supplies the Gaza Strip (yes, even while the fighting is going on) with electricity, water and fuel, not to mention other goods being transported to the Gaza Strip through border passes regularly. One of the main issues was Hamas refusal to accept Israeli inspections of shipments for contraband and dual use materials prior to their delivery to the Gaza Strip. Attempts to find a solution which will satisfy both sides on this have met with failure. For obvious security reasons, Israel will not allow free flow of goods, as long as Hamas keeps upholding armed struggle as the way to go. There is some talk about trying to set up an international mechanism to sort this, but so far no agreements and enough guarantees to make this a viable solution.

 

Israel is also a bit more open minded for PA officials taking part in those arrangements, but with the Hamas/PA split on, this is still not acceptable for the Hamas.

 

Lastly, Egypt maintains pretty much the same blockade from its own side of the border. A hard point to address without poking a hole in blaming Israel only, but still...

 

The consequence of stopping electricity, fuel, food and water into Gaza would inevitably be either the extermination of all people in Gaza, or the total evacuation of the strip. To date, even the israelis would not dare to commit such a heinous crime.

Given that israel controls Gaza through the blockade, they have no choice but to supply those commodities as the Gazans are unable to do so.

 

<Egypt maintains pretty much the same blockade from its own side of the border>

I would imagine that the closure of the Egyptian border is part of the israeli/ Egyptian treaty. I would not doubt that part of the reason Morsi was overthrown, was that he would have moved towards opening the border.

 

 

It can be looked at as "even the Israelis would not dare to commit such a heinous crime" (and that "even" is a nice touch),

or alternatively, it can be seen as Israel upholding certain international laws and conventions even under a situation which

surly tempts taking another course of action.

 

You could imagine whatever you like about Egypt maintaining the blockade on its side of the border. Egypt enforced the

blocked with various degrees under Mubarak, Morsi and el-Sisi - it has its own agenda and separate issues relating to

Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood, Islamic terrorism in the Sinai Peninsula and smuggling operations - not all of them directly

connected with Israel. The notion that Egypt is doing this solely on the behalf of Israel is quite out there.

 

 

[Morch]

 

 

<Egypt maintains pretty much the same blockade from its own side of the border>
I would imagine that the closure of the Egyptian border is part of the israeli/ Egyptian treaty.

์No. It isn't. Egypt could open it any time that they wanted to, but they have about as much use for Hamas as Israel does and are just as responsible for the blockade on goods going into Gaza. They consider Hamas terrorists that are fomenting violence in Egypt as well as Israel.

"Let Gaza burn with those in it," proclaimed Tawfik Okasha, a pro-military TV presenter known for his rabid anti-Islamist rhetoric. He praised Israel's leadership "You are men," he said for striking back against Hamas after the kidnapping and killing of three Israelis last month.
Another presenter, Amany el-Khayat, accused Hamas of trying to promote its "resistance" image by letting Gazan civilians die, saying the group seeks to "wash its face ... with Palestinians' blood."
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/24/facing-calls-to-open-gaza-border-egypt-takes-tough-line-in-rivalry-with-hamas/

 

Interesting.

However, the tunnels from Egypt can only operate with Egyptian complicity. It will be informative to see if Sissi shuts them down.

 

It is worth noting that the Palestinian refugees are still confined to camps as other Arab countries find it expedient, for whatever reason, to not let them assimilate into their own countries.

 

 

Complicity is not quite the right word here. There were different levels of enforcement applied over the years. To imply that their operation was accepted by the Egyptian leadership may be correct to a certain extent, but as with many smuggling operations this could also be attributed to lax enforcement by local authorities, bribes and lacking means to deal with the issue.

 

Seems like el-Sisi means business - http://news.yahoo.com/egypt-army-destroys-13-more-gaza-tunnels-093712884.html

More background information here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip_smuggling_tunnels#Measures_taken_by_Egypt

 

 

[Ulysses G.]

Incidentally here we have another example of the extremes some leftists go to in order to try and paint a picture of equivalence between Israel and South Africa, or even Israel and the Nazis for the terminally deranged.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/4922/no_apartheid_in_israel_lots_of_it_in_the_arab_world

More hateful, anti-Semitic protests in Europe, celebrating ISIS.

This scene last Thursday came in the wake of an earlier demonstration supposed to defend the Palestinians suffering in Gaza, which turned quickly into a hatefest targeting Israel, with people carrying placards that screamed Zionism is Nazism. But while the co-mingling of pro-Palestinian, anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic sentiment has become all too common in European protests in recent weeks, that the battle flag of the Islamic State waved in the streets of The Netherlands on July 24 is something new and particularly dangerous.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/27/isis-s-black-flags-are-flying-in-europe.html

[thaibeachlovers]

 

Watched interviews today with  both of the devil incarnate, Khaled Mashel and Hanan Ashrawi.

Both spewing out the usual hate messages from their luxurious sanctuaries.

Love the terms 'we' 'us' when referring to carrying on the good fight and how they are getting bombarded.

There is no we or us, they are never in danger, only the women and children they use as human shields at their rocket launching sites.

 

Hanan Ashrawi is actually one of the relatively moderate (or "can be reasoned with", whatever feels right) voices on the Palestinian side. She's also a Christian, and her political allegiance does not lie with Hamas as such. That she represents a general pro-Palestinian stance is expected. As far as I am aware she resides in the West Bank, although she does hop around the world a bit. No need to mix her with Hamas leadership abroad, even when both are interviewed by the same channel. The whole "devil incarnate" thing does do much good either.

 

Like it or not, there is a certain feeling of solidarity between Palestinians. Same thing can be said about Israelis and Jews. Having a sense of solidarity with the people is not quite the same as supporting all the policies and actions of the relevant leadership.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanan_Ashrawi
 

 

Not all Jews support israel. I saw a very interesting talk by  Peter Slezak on ABC last night when he condemned israel for what it is doing to Gaza.

https://sites.google.com/site/jewsagainstracistzionism/slezak.

[thaibeachlovers]

 

Incidentally here we have another example of the extremes some leftists go to in order to try and paint a picture of equivalence between Israel and South Africa, or even Israel and the Nazis for the terminally deranged.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/4922/no_apartheid_in_israel_lots_of_it_in_the_arab_world

More hateful, anti-Semitic protests in Europe, celebrating ISIS.

This scene last Thursday came in the wake of an earlier demonstration supposed to defend the Palestinians suffering in Gaza, which turned quickly into a hatefest targeting Israel, with people carrying placards that screamed Zionism is Nazism. But while the co-mingling of pro-Palestinian, anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic sentiment has become all too common in European protests in recent weeks, that the battle flag of the Islamic State waved in the streets of The Netherlands on July 24 is something new and particularly dangerous.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/27/isis-s-black-flags-are-flying-in-europe.html

 

Expect even more such the longer israel attacks Gaza, and it doesn't seem that israel is planning to stop anytime soon.

[Steely Dan]

 

Incidentally here we have another example of the extremes some leftists go to in order to try and paint a picture of equivalence between Israel and South Africa, or even Israel and the Nazis for the terminally deranged.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/4922/no_apartheid_in_israel_lots_of_it_in_the_arab_world

More hateful, anti-Semitic protests in Europe, celebrating ISIS.

This scene last Thursday came in the wake of an earlier demonstration supposed to defend the Palestinians suffering in Gaza, which turned quickly into a hatefest targeting Israel, with people carrying placards that screamed Zionism is Nazism. But while the co-mingling of pro-Palestinian, anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic sentiment has become all too common in European protests in recent weeks, that the battle flag of the Islamic State waved in the streets of The Netherlands on July 24 is something new and particularly dangerous.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/27/isis-s-black-flags-are-flying-in-europe.html
 

Expect even more such the longer israel attacks Gaza, and it doesn't seem that israel is planning to stop anytime soon.

Muslim antiSemitism in Europe predates Hamas even coming to power in Gaza so don't confuse pretext with motive. The naive no doubt cling to the notion that solving the mess that ensued after the Balfour declaration will result in sweetness and light with assimilated minorities joining hands and singing Kumbaya, but I wouldn't bet on it.


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[simple1]

 

IDF actions in the West Bank directed against Hamas, and developments in negotiations between Israel and the PA. As far as I can recall, there is no clear correlation with Israeli announcements regarding further building and expansion related to them illegal settlements in the West Bank.

 

 

Here is an example of Israeli punitive policy response to Palestinian actions, aligned to settlement expansion, there are others, headline...

 

Angry over new Palestinian government, Israel to expand settlements.

 

An Israeli politician quoted in the article.

 

"Housing Minister Uri Ariel, a long-time stalwart of the settlement movement, told Israeli media the construction plans were part of Israel’s “punitive measures” against the Palestinians and an “appropriate Zionist response to the formation of the Palestinian terrorist government.”

 

http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-israel-us-palestinians-settlements-politics-20140605-story.html

Edited July 29, 2014 by simple1

[Ulysses G.]

Israel wants to punish the Palestinians for forming a government with a terrorist group that calls for their destruction as well as every other Jew. What a shocker that is. Actions have consequences. 

[uptheos]

 

Watched interviews today with  both of the devil incarnate, Khaled Mashel and Hanan Ashrawi.

Both spewing out the usual hate messages from their luxurious sanctuaries.

Love the terms 'we' 'us' when referring to carrying on the good fight and how they are getting bombarded.

There is no we or us, they are never in danger, only the women and children they use as human shields at their rocket launching sites.

 

Hanan Ashrawi is actually one of the relatively moderate (or "can be reasoned with", whatever feels right) voices on the Palestinian side. She's also a Christian, and her political allegiance does not lie with Hamas as such. That she represents a general pro-Palestinian stance is expected. As far as I am aware she resides in the West Bank, although she does hop around the world a bit. No need to mix her with Hamas leadership abroad, even when both are interviewed by the same channel. The whole "devil incarnate" thing does do much good either.

 

Like it or not, there is a certain feeling of solidarity between Palestinians. Same thing can be said about Israelis and Jews. Having a sense of solidarity with the people is not quite the same as supporting all the policies and actions of the relevant leadership.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanan_Ashrawi
 

 

 

Hanan Ashrawi is the darling of the camera's and talks up a good game. People fall for her intellect.

She's done so ever since linking up with Arafat in the late 90's, she's not really worth discussing IMO.

 

However, do you happen to have a link to an interview where when asked, she has out rightly condemned suicide bombings as a weapon?

[Morch]

 

 

Watched interviews today with  both of the devil incarnate, Khaled Mashel and Hanan Ashrawi.

Both spewing out the usual hate messages from their luxurious sanctuaries.

Love the terms 'we' 'us' when referring to carrying on the good fight and how they are getting bombarded.

There is no we or us, they are never in danger, only the women and children they use as human shields at their rocket launching sites.

 

Hanan Ashrawi is actually one of the relatively moderate (or "can be reasoned with", whatever feels right) voices on the Palestinian side. She's also a Christian, and her political allegiance does not lie with Hamas as such. That she represents a general pro-Palestinian stance is expected. As far as I am aware she resides in the West Bank, although she does hop around the world a bit. No need to mix her with Hamas leadership abroad, even when both are interviewed by the same channel. The whole "devil incarnate" thing does do much good either.

 

Like it or not, there is a certain feeling of solidarity between Palestinians. Same thing can be said about Israelis and Jews. Having a sense of solidarity with the people is not quite the same as supporting all the policies and actions of the relevant leadership.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanan_Ashrawi
 

 

Not all Jews support israel. I saw a very interesting talk by  Peter Slezak on ABC last night when he condemned israel for what it is doing to Gaza.

https://sites.google.com/site/jewsagainstracistzionism/slezak.

 

 

Yes, well...sorts of ruins the claim made on a parallel topic that dissent is not allowed among Jews/Zionists/Israelis. There are many critical Jewish voices when it comes to Israeli governments and their policies. That is hardly news. Trying to find voices of dissent and self-criticism on the Palestinian side....somewhat harder.
 

[Morch]

 

 

IDF actions in the West Bank directed against Hamas, and developments in negotiations between Israel and the PA. As far as I can recall, there is no clear correlation with Israeli announcements regarding further building and expansion related to them illegal settlements in the West Bank.

 

 

Here is an example of Israeli punitive policy response to Palestinian actions, aligned to settlement expansion, there are others, headline...

Angry over new Palestinian government, Israel to expand settlements.

 

An Israeli politician quoted in the article.

 

"Housing Minister Uri Ariel, a long-time stalwart of the settlement movement, told Israeli media the construction plans were part of Israel’s  “punitive measures” against the Palestinians and an “appropriate Zionist response to the formation of the Palestinian terrorist government.”

 

http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-israel-us-palestinians-settlements-politics-20140605-story.html

 

 

The original bit quoted from my post:

 

 

That said, peaks in rocket fire from the Gaza Strip usually coincide with IDF actions in the Gaza Strip, IDF actions in the West Bank directed against Hamas, and developments in negotiations between Israel and the PA. As far as I can recall, there is no clear correlation with Israeli announcements regarding further building and expansion related to them illegal settlements in the West Bank.

I was referring to rocket fire from the Gaza Strip not being consistently correlated with Israeli announcements regarding illegal settlements in the West Bank, while suggesting that the rocket fire usually occurs in connection with other actions related to the IDF and the Israeli government.

 

No argument that Israeli governments routinely use expansion of illegal settlements as a threat/punitive action when things don't go their way. In my personal opinion, regardless of whether specific Israeli grievances are justified, further expansion of the illegal settlements serves mostly to make things worse (both in the short and the long run). I am not quite sure all of these announcements become a reality, but it does not matter all that much, as they contribute to the bad blood even just by being aired.

[Morch]

 

 

Watched interviews today with  both of the devil incarnate, Khaled Mashel and Hanan Ashrawi.

Both spewing out the usual hate messages from their luxurious sanctuaries.

Love the terms 'we' 'us' when referring to carrying on the good fight and how they are getting bombarded.

There is no we or us, they are never in danger, only the women and children they use as human shields at their rocket launching sites.

 

Hanan Ashrawi is actually one of the relatively moderate (or "can be reasoned with", whatever feels right) voices on the Palestinian side. She's also a Christian, and her political allegiance does not lie with Hamas as such. That she represents a general pro-Palestinian stance is expected. As far as I am aware she resides in the West Bank, although she does hop around the world a bit. No need to mix her with Hamas leadership abroad, even when both are interviewed by the same channel. The whole "devil incarnate" thing does do much good either.

 

Like it or not, there is a certain feeling of solidarity between Palestinians. Same thing can be said about Israelis and Jews. Having a sense of solidarity with the people is not quite the same as supporting all the policies and actions of the relevant leadership.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanan_Ashrawi
 

 

 

Hanan Ashrawi is the darling of the camera's and talks up a good game. People fall for her intellect.

She's done so ever since linking up with Arafat in the late 90's, she's not really worth discussing IMO.

 

However, do you happen to have a link to an interview where when asked, she has out rightly condemned suicide bombings as a weapon?

 

 

Choosing one's enemies is not always a possibility.

Relative to the available selection of Palestinian voices, Ashrawi is hardly as militant as others. That does not make her

a supporter of Israel or anything of the sort, but way better than Hamas and other extremists.

 

Seeing as you are the one who brought her name into this topic, "she's not really worth discussing IMO" is kinda funny.

Not sure if that will answer the question to your satisfaction, but that the best I can do without playing secretary:

 

 

The
issue of suicide bombers comes up inevitably. “What about the
suicide bombers? How do you feel about women and children being
blown up? What about the Passover Seder bombing?” How do you
provide some context to these horrible events?
 

The
targeting of civilians is inexcusable and cannot be justified. The
problem is people feel you’re justifying it when you tell them,
“A suicide bomber is not born, he or she is made”—they
emerge from a situation of tremendous injustice, or hopelessness,
or even extreme ideology. We’ve never had a suicidal culture
in Palestine. So this is an aberration. It’s something very
strange and very recent, from the mid-1990s. They started as a reaction
to the 1994 Baruch Goldstein massacre in the Ibrahimi mosque in
Hebron. Then there was the assassination of a couple of leaders
from Islamic Jihad and Hamas. The worse the situation becomes, the
more desperate and hopeless people are, the more extremism gains
sway. Extremism on one side feeds extremism on the other.

http://zcomm.org/zmagazine/an-interview-with-hanan-ashrawi-by-david-barsamian/

 

Please note that this is a pretty old interview, from 2003 and that I do not think getting into a detailed analysis of her response got much to do with the topic at hand. As someone tasked with expressing the Palestinian point of view, she is bound to present things in a certain manner.
 

[DPIZZA]

45 times and still in war...

Do they care for nr. 46 ?



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When the Human Rights Council will be an objective body, that its sole purpose is not to defame Israel,
then, and only then, Israel should start to listen to what it says.
 
As long as it is a body where its chairmen are from Libya, China, Cuba, Iraq and other "humanists", Israel doesnt have to care about it.
Also, the resolutions of this "council" are non biding.
Check these to understand better

Is there any resolution against the nuclear weapons of Israel ?

Can we not threat nuclear 'nations' a bit different when they shoot only with rubber bullets in another territory ?


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The "so called" Human Rights Council doesnt deal with Nuclear weapons... so you can understand there are no resolutions against such things...

You are probably confusing with the General Assembly, which is a total different story.

 

Also the rest of what you are saying is very confused, that i am not sure you understand the background correctly...

 

Israel is not shooting rubber bullets any longer, it is at war.

Hamas shoots rockets into "Israel territory" from Gaza, which Israel left about 7 years ago unilaterally.

So you cant cry about "so called occupation" in Gaza.

It is true there is an embargo on Gaza, because its elected government is a terror organization calling and acting for the destruction of Israel.

[thaibeachlovers]

Israel wants to punish the Palestinians for forming a government with a terrorist group that calls for their destruction as well as every other Jew. What a shocker that is. Actions have consequences. 

Well, they certainly are succeeding. They just blew up the power station and a hospital, killed children playing on the beach and killed 7 members of a family in their home.

As over 50% of the population are under 20, how are they responsible for electing Hamas?

 

The west bank didn't elect Hamas, but they still get their land stolen and live every day under collective punishment.

[Jingthing]

 

Israel wants to punish the Palestinians for forming a government with a terrorist group that calls for their destruction as well as every other Jew. What a shocker that is. Actions have consequences. 

Well, they certainly are succeeding. They just blew up the power station and a hospital, killed children playing on the beach and killed 7 members of a family in their home.

As over 50% of the population are under 20, how are they responsible for electing Hamas?

 

The west bank didn't elect Hamas, but they still get their land stolen and live every day under collective punishment.

 

So your theory is Hamas shoots the rockets and plans terror tunnel attacks into Israel because of WEST BANK settlements? Interesting. If not, I don't see how the west bank situation is relevant to the current war between Israel and Hamas/Gaza.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

The west bank didn't elect Hamas, but they still get their land stolen and live every day under collective punishment.

 

They elected Fatah, who are saner than Hamas, but still cheered the kidnapping and murder of three teenagers by Hamas members. They are hardly good guys.

[thaibeachlovers]

 

 

Israel wants to punish the Palestinians for forming a government with a terrorist group that calls for their destruction as well as every other Jew. What a shocker that is. Actions have consequences. 

Well, they certainly are succeeding. They just blew up the power station and a hospital, killed children playing on the beach and killed 7 members of a family in their home.

As over 50% of the population are under 20, how are they responsible for electing Hamas?

 

The west bank didn't elect Hamas, but they still get their land stolen and live every day under collective punishment.

 

So your theory is Hamas shoots the rockets and plans terror tunnel attacks into Israel because of WEST BANK settlements? Interesting. If not, I don't see how the west bank situation is relevant to the current war between Israel and Hamas/Gaza.

 

No, I was responding to Ulysses claim that the israelis punish only Gaza for electing Hamas, while the truth is that the west bank is also punished despite haveing an acceptable government.

[thaibeachlovers]

 

The west bank didn't elect Hamas, but they still get their land stolen and live every day under collective punishment.

 

They elected Fatah, who are saner than Hamas, but still cheered the kidnapping and murder of three teenagers by Hamas members. They are hardly good guys.

 

It has not been proven that Hamas did that. That is israeli propaganda.

[Ulysses G.]

No, I was responding to Ulysses claim that the israelis punish only Gaza for electing Hamas

I made no such statement. Quit making things up. Edited July 30, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[DPIZZA]

Think you'll find most regular decent people condemn killing of women and children whoever does it and whoever are the victims.

 

It is false to suggest its anything for most but simply a natural reaction when innocents and those unable to defend themselves are killed. 

 

There is no defence no matter who the aggressor is, whatever race, whatever nation, whatever religion, it is wrong and disgusting to most. People do not like to see civilian casualties, period. 

 

It just happens to be Israel as the main aggressor  and the more people try to justify so many children and civilian injuries and deaths the less support Israel will continue to enjoy or indeed be surprised or sympathetic when there is blowback. This would be both unfortunate and sad but as we know all too well from history when a bully eventually gets taken down a peg or two then the usual reaction is one of apathy and people tend to be unsurprised and often even unsympathetic. In Israel's case not because most normal people are  Anti Semitic but because its simply wrong and they tend to have long  memories and understand what goes around often comes around.  

 

And yes if this were the British instead of Israel acting in this manner I would be ashamed of Britain and also outraged ( as I am for many things Britain has done and continues to at times ) whether I were myself British or considered Britain an ally. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with you 100% that killing of women and children or any other civilians is shocking and should be avoided.

Also most of the people of Israel would agree with you ( ofcourse there are the extremists on both sides, but they are a minority).

 

BUT the problem is that you fail to understand WHY citizens are being killed, and from there HOW to make it stop!

 

Hamas doesnt have the sensitivity that you and the rest of the western world has for human lives. 

It uses death of civilians for its advantage in a sick propaganda.

For Hamas, the more civilian casualties, the more shocking the better. 

Unfortunately, Hamas and News agencies share an interest - the more shocking the better the story.

 

Hamas uses your sensitivity to their advantage. They actually were counting on it!

They know pretty well that they cant defeat Israel with their rockets, they want to defeat it on the world opinion stage.

Otherwise, how can you explain that they refused all long lasting cease fires, broke all "Humanitarian cease fires", and were the one to start this conflict!

 

They dont think like me and you. For the extremist Muslim, to die as a shahid (martyr in the name of Islam) is the best thing they can aspire to.

All life here on earth come to serve only one goal, the life in the afterlife, and there, it is only heaven or hell.

So according to that twisted logic, ofcourse you want a sure ticket for reaching heaven (being a Shahid).

 

Hamas caused the conflict. It doesnt want to stop it. It hides behinds civilians.

It attacks from civilian centers to reach a win win situation: or Israel will sustain from hitting the target, or more civilians will die.

The more civilian dies, the more people will join their rank, the more Israel looses its status.

 

I dont expect you to believe me, do research on your own, but you can start with these:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2wvqDfitLY

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i08L09V0_sg

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT6iKFQDEP4

[CBR250]

WHO has said today that essential drugs in Gaza are at zero or near zero.

This means drugs for mums and bubs, not wounded soldiers.

Israel will not allow these drugs entry into Gaza. In fact, they have destroyed 23 medical facilities that were involved in providing care to civilians during the current invasion.

 

Yet more reasons to launch an inquiry into Crimes Against Humanity  - with or without Israeli participation.

[dexterm]

When the Daily Mail's Max Hastings turns against Israel, you know it's in deep trouble. The PR tide has turned against israel.

 

"I've always loved Israel but this brutality breaks my heart

 

Were the world’s attention not overwhelmingly fixed on the fate of Flight MH17, it would have more to say about that of the Palestinian inhabitants of Gaza. Bombed and battered by Israeli air and firepower, they are dying in scores, victims alike of their own leadership and Israeli ruthlessness."

 

more at....

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2703531/MAX-HASTINGS-Ive-loved-Israel-brutality-breaks-heart.html

 

 

[Jay Sata]

WHO has said today that essential drugs in Gaza are at zero or near zero.

This means drugs for mums and bubs, not wounded soldiers.

Israel will not allow these drugs entry into Gaza. In fact, they have destroyed 23 medical facilities that were involved in providing care to civilians during the current invasion.

 

Yet more reasons to launch an inquiry into Crimes Against Humanity  - with or without Israeli participation.

The pictures emerging from this latest military adventure by Netanyahu make you question his logic and conscience.

 

The Palestinian civilian deaths are a terrible tragedy but paint a picture that will be hard to erase from the minds of decent people accross the world.

 

In my mind the use of high power modern explosive on a confined defenseless  population is nothing short of barbaric.

 

This is from the UK charity Christian Aid

 

Thousands who have fled the bombings in the neighbourhood of Shejaya in Gaza have witnessed utterly disturbing violence. One eyewitness told our partner:

• ‘Bombs were raining on our heads everywhere. We ran as fast as we could. Many were falling down, but we could not look back. There were 50 of us, but only 12 made it out alive.'

[Morch]

WHO has said today that essential drugs in Gaza are at zero or near zero.

This means drugs for mums and bubs, not wounded soldiers.

Israel will not allow these drugs entry into Gaza. In fact, they have destroyed 23 medical facilities that were involved in providing care to civilians during the current invasion.

 

Yet more reasons to launch an inquiry into Crimes Against Humanity  - with or without Israeli participation.

 

Israel does allow transfer of medical supplies into the Gaza Strip, even during the hostilities.

 

 

Essential medical supplies arrive in Gaza

30 July 2014 - A shipment of US$ 1.4 million in medical supplies for Gaza, procured by WHO with donations from Switzerland and Norway, arrived at the central drug store in Gaza on 29 July and was sorted for immediate distribution to Gaza hospitals through coordination with the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA). The shipment of 37 pallets contained mainly surgical kits, IV fluids and medications.

http://www.emro.who.int/pse/palestine-news/essential-medical-supplies-gaza.html

 

 

Latest Dubai Airlift carries medical supplies to Gaza
The airlift of emergency aid to the displaced and injured in Gaza ordered by Vice President and Prime Minister and Ruler of Dubai, His Highness Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum, entered its fifth day yesterday as a Boeing 747 and two C130s rushed 22 tons of medical supplies for the World Health Organisation, and 35,000 blankets for UNWRA to Amman for onward shipment by truck into Gaza.
 

http://www.uaeinteract.com/docs/Latest-Dubai-Airlift-carries-medical-supplies-to-Gaza/62951.htm

 

 

Turkey delivers medical aid to Gaza amid shortage of supplies

Three Turkish shipments of supplies – which include antibiotics and surgery requirements - enter Gaza through Karam Abu Salem crossing

GAZA CITY - The Turkish Red Crescent on Tuesday delivered three shipments of medical supplies to the Gaza Strip, which has been suffering incessant Israeli attacks since July 7.

 

When they reached Gaza, the three shipments were received by the Palestinian Red Crescent.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkey-delivers-medical-aid-gaza-amid-shortage-supplies-1945379490

[englishoak]

 

Think you'll find most regular decent people condemn killing of women and children whoever does it and whoever are the victims.

 

It is false to suggest its anything for most but simply a natural reaction when innocents and those unable to defend themselves are killed. 

 

There is no defence no matter who the aggressor is, whatever race, whatever nation, whatever religion, it is wrong and disgusting to most. People do not like to see civilian casualties, period. 

 

It just happens to be Israel as the main aggressor  and the more people try to justify so many children and civilian injuries and deaths the less support Israel will continue to enjoy or indeed be surprised or sympathetic when there is blowback. This would be both unfortunate and sad but as we know all too well from history when a bully eventually gets taken down a peg or two then the usual reaction is one of apathy and people tend to be unsurprised and often even unsympathetic. In Israel's case not because most normal people are  Anti Semitic but because its simply wrong and they tend to have long  memories and understand what goes around often comes around.  

 

And yes if this were the British instead of Israel acting in this manner I would be ashamed of Britain and also outraged ( as I am for many things Britain has done and continues to at times ) whether I were myself British or considered Britain an ally. 

 

 

I agree with you 100% that killing of women and children or any other civilians is shocking and should be avoided.

Also most of the people of Israel would agree with you ( ofcourse there are the extremists on both sides, but they are a minority).

 

BUT the problem is that you fail to understand WHY citizens are being killed, and from there HOW to make it stop!

 

Hamas doesnt have the sensitivity that you and the rest of the western world has for human lives. 

It uses death of civilians for its advantage in a sick propaganda.

For Hamas, the more civilian casualties, the more shocking the better. 

Unfortunately, Hamas and News agencies share an interest - the more shocking the better the story.

 

Hamas uses your sensitivity to their advantage. They actually were counting on it!

They know pretty well that they cant defeat Israel with their rockets, they want to defeat it on the world opinion stage.

Otherwise, how can you explain that they refused all long lasting cease fires, broke all "Humanitarian cease fires", and were the one to start this conflict!

 

They dont think like me and you. For the extremist Muslim, to die as a shahid (martyr in the name of Islam) is the best thing they can aspire to.

All life here on earth come to serve only one goal, the life in the afterlife, and there, it is only heaven or hell.

So according to that twisted logic, ofcourse you want a sure ticket for reaching heaven (being a Shahid).

 

Hamas caused the conflict. It doesnt want to stop it. It hides behinds civilians.

It attacks from civilian centers to reach a win win situation: or Israel will sustain from hitting the target, or more civilians will die.

The more civilian dies, the more people will join their rank, the more Israel looses its status.

 

I dont expect you to believe me, do research on your own, but you can start with these:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2wvqDfitLY

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i08L09V0_sg

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT6iKFQDEP4

 

 

Spare me the propaganda videos, there is nothing special about you tube examples, there are thousands out there all from all points of view and it represents the views of very few and is counter productive to peace and progress. Although of course that is the point of both fundamentalist camps. That is not research btw

 

Sensitivity extends as far as people wish it according to their own moral sense of decency.  I see no excuse in this age for people ( especially educated peoples ) to accept any killing of civilians not your own and not on another's.

 

I would suggest leaving the religion aspect aside too. Your beliefs are yours as they are theirs and I would rather not go into the foolishness of mans attempts to justify his own actions in the name of it. Frankly to many it is the biggest lie ever conceived by man in order to justify murdering and attempting to vilify others. 

 

Now on to your idea that a walled in people has anywhere to go, its getting a bit old hearing about the human shield when 1.7m are in a small area such as Gaza. Civilians are being killed mostly because Israel is not at all bothered where it target. Israel is using its own form of terrorism no less but on a far grander scale, its hard to see that being popular. 

 

As far as your theory on Hammas is concerned seeking attn  it is probably correct, they do want to see these atrocities affect world opinion and it hopes to feed their aim for international sympathy, then again you have to in that case marvel at the genius of Hammas knowing its enemy so well and the stupidity of Israel in supplying the desired effect no ? 

 

in your scenario Israel playing into the hands of Hammas would be one of the most stupid moves it could do, yet here it is doing exactly that.... would it not be better and smarter for the supposed brains of Israel to quit making the same mistakes and lowering themselves to the level of whom they claim to be above and find a final two state solution that its been bucking for decades ?  

 

Israel continues decade after decade to lose its victim status in the eyes of many, it should be concerned because for all its wealth and intelligence it really does show it lacks wisdom and human compassion no less than any other repressive regime its people faced in the past. Not so far removed from those it would like to claim it differs from. Same same just pretends to be different.

 

Do your own research, the similarities in attitude and thinking by Hammas and often Israel's policy and responses are sadly quite striking. 

 

The problem you have is your eye for an eye attitude, as a wise man once said. only ends up making the whole world blind. (Gandhi) 

[JohnnyJazz]

You are doing your best to ignore the fact that neo-Nazis, Muslim extremists and other anti-Semitic groups are fueling these protests all over the world - not just in London or Germany.


Germany, France and Italy Condemn Anti-Semitic Protesters After Violent Clashes
http://www.newsweek.com/germany-france-and-italy-and-condemn-anti-semitic-protesters-after-violent-clashes-260463

 

 

I suppose some of the people in London today might still try to pretend that they don’t hate Jews. Perhaps some of them would not even do what their co-religionists in France did last week when – intent on violence – they blockaded worshippers inside a Synagogue. But there is only one explanation for their horrible beliefs and actions.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/07/londons-pro-palestine-rally-was-a-disgusting-anti-semitic-spectacle/

 

You have your facts wrong. The trouble in Paris was caused by a far-right Jewish group, the "Jewish Defense League". It was them who started the fight. They actually called the day before on twitter the palestinian sympathizers for a "meeting" in front of the synagogue. 

 

Calls mount to ban France’s ‘violent’ Jewish Defence League

Pressure is mounting on France to ban a far-right Jewish group, described as violent and extreme by critics, following its involvement in clashes at a pro-Palestinian protest in Paris and the jailing of two of its supporters over a bomb plot.

The Jewish Defence League, an international organisation dedicated to protecting Jews from anti-Semitism by “whatever means necessary”, has a long history of controversy and alleged acts of terrorism and has been outlawed in both the US and Israel.

 

http://www.france24.com/en/20140729-calls-mount-ban-france-violent-jewish-defence-league/

 

 

Edited July 31, 2014 by JohnnyJazz

[Ulysses G.]

 

You are doing your best to ignore the fact that neo-Nazis, Muslim extremists and other anti-Semitic groups are fueling these protests all over the world - not just in London or Germany.


Germany, France and Italy Condemn Anti-Semitic Protesters After Violent Clashes
http://www.newsweek.com/germany-france-and-italy-and-condemn-anti-semitic-protesters-after-violent-clashes-260463

 

 

I suppose some of the people in London today might still try to pretend that they don’t hate Jews. Perhaps some of them would not even do what their co-religionists in France did last week when – intent on violence – they blockaded worshippers inside a Synagogue. But there is only one explanation for their horrible beliefs and actions.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/07/londons-pro-palestine-rally-was-a-disgusting-anti-semitic-spectacle/

 

You have your facts wrong. 

 

 

 

Actually they are not "my facts". They are the are the facts of Newsweek, the Spectator and numerous other media outlets. There has been a lot more than one anti-Semitic protest. Here are demonstrators chanting "Jews, out of France" back in January and - guess what - no JDL to be found.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQq51hNSyoc

Edited July 31, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[JohnnyJazz]

 

 

You are doing your best to ignore the fact that neo-Nazis, Muslim extremists and other anti-Semitic groups are fueling these protests all over the world - not just in London or Germany.


Germany, France and Italy Condemn Anti-Semitic Protesters After Violent Clashes
http://www.newsweek.com/germany-france-and-italy-and-condemn-anti-semitic-protesters-after-violent-clashes-260463

 

 

I suppose some of the people in London today might still try to pretend that they don’t hate Jews. Perhaps some of them would not even do what their co-religionists in France did last week when – intent on violence – they blockaded worshippers inside a Synagogue. But there is only one explanation for their horrible beliefs and actions.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/07/londons-pro-palestine-rally-was-a-disgusting-anti-semitic-spectacle/

 

You have your facts wrong. 

 

 

 

Actually they are not "my facts". They are the are the facts of Newsweek, the Spectator and numerous other media outlets. There has been a lot more than one anti-Semitic protest. Here are demonstrators chanting "Jews, out of France" back in January and - guess what - no JDL to be found.

 

 

 

 

This is your post. You say, your own words " their co-religionists (??) in France did last week when – intent on violence – they blockaded worshippers inside a Synagogue." The people responsible were in fact members of the far-right jewish organization the Jewish Defense League. In short the people terrorizing the people in the synagogue were not jews hating people but ...other Jewish. 

 

A video shot 6 month earlier showing a parade of French right wing activists won't change anything to that. 

[Ulysses G.]

There have been a number of those parades and no JDL. That was just one example. Sorry, but trying to pin all these anti-Semitic protests on THE JEWS - because of one possible incident - just does not wash. 

 

By the way, they are not "my words". They are the words of the professional news organization with a link underneath. You obviously did not read the articles as they do not mention the JDL as having any responsibility at all. 

Edited July 31, 2014 by Ulysses G.