Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[ubonjoe]

9 minutes ago, YetAnother said:

why is it called 'permanent' and why is it tied to work here ?

Because it is permanent. Permanent means you don't have to apply for it more than once. It is not not easy for it to revoked it that what you are thinking.

After PR is granted you don't have to work any more.

[YetAnother]

but i retired years before moving here; on retirement visa  i cant work here , so i cant even be in the PR Program

[ubonjoe]

9 minutes ago, YetAnother said:

but i retired years before moving here; on retirement visa  i cant work here , so i cant even be in the PR Program

You could work here if you found a job, got a new visa from an embassy, a work permit and extensions of stay (not a visa) based upon working.

How many countries in the world grant permanent residency for retirement?

[camerata]

On 5/15/2017 at 8:15 AM, onthemoon said:

I'm pretty sure they will want to see it - I would suggest to bring it along just in case.

 

As it turned out, they asked for nothing, but I took it just in case. I'm sure it varies from area to area.

[onthemoon]

Thanks for the feedback, camerata.

[skyaslimit]

I remember Arkady mentioned something about Tax ID number should be changed from a ten digit number (TIN) to a 13 digit number (PIN) as assigned in blue thabian baan , I am browsing this thread to find it again with no success, will some please clarify if it is possible to do after being a PR?

 

 

[Arkady]

On 5/1/2017 at 3:24 PM, mortenaa said:

When I got my PR a couple of months ago, they told me I could apply for citizenship now. I haven't really looked into the details, but why would they tell me otherwise? 

 

If you have been married to a Thai for three years (one year, if you have a child together) you can apply right away.  If not the guidelines say you need to wait for 5 years after getting PR.  Interpretation has varied, depending who is in charge at the Interior Ministry, because the Nationality Act only specifies 5 years residence in the Kingdom.   The traditionalists argue that temporary residence before getting PR doesn't count to this but some years ago there was an interpretation that residence can include uninterrupted time with a NON-IMM B visa and some people successfully applied for citizenship with less than 5 years' PR at the time of application.  Some more years after that some batches of people who had been advised to apply on that basis were rejected after the MoI interview, a couple of years after application, when the interview discovered they had less than 5 years' PR at the time of application. Special Branch told me at the time (because I was applying myself then) they had insisted it was their right to apply because of the lack of specific mention of PR in the Nationality Act.  I rather suspect SB advised them to try it, as they knew of others who had been successful but they got whiplashed by the policy reversion under a new regime (the Yingluck government) .

 

Since this is a matter of fluctuating interpretations of the Nationality Act, I would advise you to go posthaste to Special Branch's Nationality Section in Room 24 of National Police HQ with all your documents and ask their opinion on this matter.  They will be more than happy to advise what is current thinking at the Interior Ministry on this.  If they let you apply, but you get rejected a couple of years later, it won't count against you and you won't lose any time, since you have only just go PR.  You will simply re-apply after 5 years with more knowledge about how to go about it.   

[Arkady]

On 5/23/2017 at 3:27 PM, skyaslimit said:

I remember Arkady mentioned something about Tax ID number should be changed from a ten digit number (TIN) to a 13 digit number (PIN) as assigned in blue thabian baan , I am browsing this thread to find it again with no success, will some please clarify if it is possible to do after being a PR?

 

 

 

Yes, it the district offices that issue the 13 digit ID number with prefix 8- for PRs when you apply for your first blue tabien baan after getting PR.  This is also your new tax ID number.  I think foreigners now get a 13 digit ID number with prefix 6- when they register for tax or apply for a yellow tabien baan but those will be changed to a new number with prefix 8- too on getting PR.   If you go on to get Thai citizenship, you will keep the same number starting with 8-.   

[mortenaa]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

 

If you have been married to a Thai for three years (one year, if you have a child together) you can apply right away.  If not the guidelines say you need to wait for 5 years after getting PR.  Interpretation has varied, depending who is in charge at the Interior Ministry, because the Nationality Act only specifies 5 years residence in the Kingdom.   The traditionalists argue that temporary residence before getting PR doesn't count to this but some years ago there was an interpretation that residence can include uninterrupted time with a NON-IMM B visa and some people successfully applied for citizenship with less than 5 years' PR at the time of application.  Some more years after that some batches of people who had been advised to apply on that basis were rejected after the MoI interview, a couple of years after application, when the interview discovered they had less than 5 years' PR at the time of application. Special Branch told me at the time (because I was applying myself then) they had insisted it was their right to apply because of the lack of specific mention of PR in the Nationality Act.  I rather suspect SB advised them to try it, as they knew of others who had been successful but they got whiplashed by the policy reversion under a new regime (the Yingluck government) .

 

Since this is a matter of fluctuating interpretations of the Nationality Act, I would advise you to go posthaste to Special Branch's Nationality Section in Room 24 of National Police HQ with all your documents and ask their opinion on this matter.  They will be more than happy to advise what is current thinking at the Interior Ministry on this.  If they let you apply, but you get rejected a couple of years later, it won't count against you and you won't lose any time, since you have only just go PR.  You will simply re-apply after 5 years with more knowledge about how to go about it.   

 

Thank you for a very informative post.

[mortenaa]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

 

Yes, it the district offices that issue the 13 digit ID number with prefix 8- for PRs when you apply for your first blue tabien baan after getting PR.  This is also your new tax ID number.  I think foreigners now get a 13 digit ID number with prefix 6- when they register for tax or apply for a yellow tabien baan but those will be changed to a new number with prefix 8- too on getting PR.   If you go on to get Thai citizenship, you will keep the same number starting with 8-.   

 

Does it change "automatically", or do I need to tell my accountant to update this information with Revenue Department? 

[Arkady]

My experience was that after I got PR and the 13 digit ID I took a break for a bit and then set up a small company and got a WP and filed for tax again.  At that point I filed my tax using the 13 digit number and got a password from the Revenue Dept for online filing.  I just made the transition without involving anyone else and it was no problem.  Later I was offered a job by a large Plc and went to work for them instead of my own company.  Their HR dept was utterly clueless and applied for a foreigner's tax ID for me, even though I told them I already had a 13 digit ID number that I had registered with the Revenue Dept.  They completely ignored everything I said to them about my tax status and paid my salary using the foreign tax ID for 7 years.  Nevertheless, I filed my own tax returns every year online using my real ID number and password.  Strangely enough it didn't create any problems.    I would suggest you try doing the same thing, i.e. just apply for a password from the Revenue Department using your new ID number and file your next Por Ngor Tor 90 or 91 online.  If you want the accountant to do it, just give him your password.  If you ask the accountant or the Revenue Dept, they will probably come up with some strange reasons why you can't do it.     

[skyaslimit]

My experience was that after I got PR and the 13 digit ID I took a break for a bit and then set up a small company and got a WP and filed for tax again.  At that point I filed my tax using the 13 digit number and got a password from the Revenue Dept for online filing.  I just made the transition without involving anyone else and it was no problem.  Later I was offered a job by a large Plc and went to work for them instead of my own company.  Their HR dept was utterly clueless and applied for a foreigner's tax ID for me, even though I told them I already had a 13 digit ID number that I had registered with the Revenue Dept.  They completely ignored everything I said to them about my tax status and paid my salary using the foreign tax ID for 7 years.  Nevertheless, I filed my own tax returns every year online using my real ID number and password.  Strangely enough it didn't create any problems.    I would suggest you try doing the same thing, i.e. just apply for a password from the Revenue Department using your new ID number and file your next Por Ngor Tor 90 or 91 online.  If you want the accountant to do it, just give him your password.  If you ask the accountant or the Revenue Dept, they will probably come up with some strange reasons why you can't do it.     

True they always come up with some very strange reasons, I was at RD by myself and asked them to change my TIN to PIN, a lot of delay , excuses and every thing else which I encountered while changing my DL, SSC, Bank etc. etc. Experienced enough I was successful to get my PIN and a new tax card.

[camerata]

No one has ever suggested I change my old tax number to my Citizen's ID number, but I noticed this year (when I submitted my tax return) that they added a prefix to the old number to make it 13 digits. I asked if I need to change my Tax ID card but they said "no need" so I haven't bothered. This is Thailand, after all.

[skyaslimit]

No one has ever suggested I change my old tax number to my Citizen's ID number, but I noticed this year (when I submitted my tax return) that they added a prefix to the old number to make it 13 digits. I asked if I need to change my Tax ID card but they said "no need" so I haven't bothered. This is Thailand, after all.

After being a PR , I felt very strange to have my passport number on my drivers license and bank account, a 13 digit number starting with 6 on my Social Security card, a 10 digit numbers on my tax ID (TIN) and a new 13 digit number starting with 8 on my Thabian Baan, so I fought little battles with all of above mentioned departments to get all of these numbers converted to one single 13 digit number as assigned in my Thabian Baan successfuly

[Arkady]

5 hours ago, skyaslimit said:

True they always come up with some very strange reasons, I was at RD by myself and asked them to change my TIN to PIN, a lot of delay , excuses and every thing else which I encountered while changing my DL, SSC, Bank etc. etc. Experienced enough I was successful to get my PIN and a new tax card.

 

I never got a tax card with my 13 digit ID number on it, probably because I never actually applied to change the number. I have only been asked for it once and when I said I didn't have one, they said it didn't matter.   I lost the original one with my foreign tax number on it a couple of decades ago.

[camerata]

My social security number also begins with a 6. I guess it never occurred to me that it could/should be the Citizen's ID number. I suppose I ought to ask about changing it.

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, camerata said:

My social security number also begins with a 6. I guess it never occurred to me that it could/should be the Citizen's ID number. I suppose I ought to ask about changing it.

I actually did that because my company had put me in the SS system using the foreigners' tax ID number they had idiotically insisted on applying for on my behalf.  I had never been in it before, as I had been a director of the companies I worked for and thus ineligible.  The SS refused to do it until I got citizenship for some unexplained reason.  I thought it was worth the effort as I was planning to stay in it to complete the 15 years needed for retirement benefits and thought they might use having paid the contributions under the wrong number as an excuse not to pay the benefits. Soon after that I found myself kicked out of the scheme by the SS as I changed jobs again and was told I was too old to stay in the scheme with a new employer, although I could have stayed in it indefinitely with the same employer.  My accountant had advised me that it would no longer problem to stay in the scheme as long as I was not a director of the new company.  WRONG. I have to remain content with picking up the B600 a month from the government until the government cancels that, as it is threatening to do. At least a year of that repays the application fees for citizenship. The SS scheme is likely to go bust anyway as a result of incompetent management and corruption.     
 

[stbkk]

Just got back from CW after getting my re-entry permit renewed. Took less than an hour from getting the Q ticket to getting the passport and PR books back all stamped. Fastest ever!

[orientalist]

Does anyone recall if PR-holders have to show their tabien baan when renewing a driving licence?

[sas_cars]

Does anyone recall if PR-holders have to show their tabien baan when renewing a driving licence?

Yeah. All alien books plus tabian baan. Take every thing you have.

[onthemoon]

Pink ID card plus tabien baan. Same as the Thais.

[orientalist]

I seem to recall last time I took the official one-sheet extract from the tabien baan, but it had to be issued within the past 3 months.

[sas_cars]

1 hour ago, onthemoon said:

Pink ID card plus tabien baan. Same as the Thais.

 

At Bangkok main DLT department (Morchit) , when I showed up with my Pink ID Card, they refused to show any respect to the Pink card and insisted on original and copies of all residency books and tabian baan. I won't recommend anyone to just take the Pink ID card and tabian baan, you may have to revisit again. Better armed with everything in order to avoid surprises

[Arkady]

17 minutes ago, sas_cars said:

 

At Bangkok main DLT department (Morchit) , when I showed up with my Pink ID Card, they refused to show any respect to the Pink card and insisted on original and copies of all residency books and tabian baan. I won't recommend anyone to just take the Pink ID card and tabian baan, you may have to revisit again. Better armed with everything in order to avoid surprises

 

I think it reflects the usual muddle of overlapping, conflicting or incomplete regulations.  BORA regulations now require DOs to issue pink cards to PRs but there is no further law or regulation to the effect that this is an official form of ID for PRs that must be recognised by government departments.  The official form of ID for PRs remains the alien book, which is required by certain government departments that know what it is but not recognised by anyone else, and even those that do recognise it also require a passport and other docs to back it up.

 

One day various departments might get together and agree to scrap the pointless alien and residence books and replace them with a smart ID card for PRs that only needs to be renewed every 5 years.  On that day we will also see pigs flying.    

[Bangel72]

On 6/13/2017 at 2:10 PM, stbkk said:

Just got back from CW after getting my re-entry permit renewed. Took less than an hour from getting the Q ticket to getting the passport and PR books back all stamped. Fastest ever!

@stbkk  Good timing thinking might need to pick one up soon, have not left the country in years though. What paper work did you take, I remember the old tm8 form but not sure if it is different when now a PR? Thanks

[onthemoon]

3 hours ago, sas_cars said:

 

At Bangkok main DLT department (Morchit) , when I showed up with my Pink ID Card, they refused to show any respect to the Pink card and insisted on original and copies of all residency books and tabian baan. I won't recommend anyone to just take the Pink ID card and tabian baan, you may have to revisit again. Better armed with everything in order to avoid surprises

They also asked me first at the DLT branch in Bangchak to show passport and all that which I hadn't brought with me. I asked them to call to the Khet to verify that the pink ID card has the same value as a Thai ID card in this context. They made that call and happily agreed - even thanked me that they had learned something new.

 

You just have to be polite. Even government officials can't know everything.

[stbkk]

3 hours ago, Bangel72 said:

@stbkk  Good timing thinking might need to pick one up soon, have not left the country in years though. What paper work did you take, I remember the old tm8 form but not sure if it is different when now a PR? Thanks

Hi Bangel,

 

2 forms, TM13 and TM22, + passport, PR book and police book. Attached are the versions of the form I use. Also more expensive than for non-PR, 5700 Baht. And of course, you will get fingerprinted (again). If you take the forms pre-filled in, it makes it easier to explain to the guy handing out the queue numbers to understand you are not one of the 'regular' re-entries. You should be sent to PR re-entry counter, either D or E (cannot remember which one, sorry!).

 

Quick edit - 5700 is the total for a multiple re-entry. The single version is cheaper.

 

tm13.pdf

tm22.pdf

[Bangel72]

With regards to PR and coming back into Thailand, is it just the simple case that the passport must be valid on entry date?

Normally it needs to be valid for the duration of the visa but with PR its forever so no duration.

 

[Arkady]

5 hours ago, Bangel72 said:

With regards to PR and coming back into Thailand, is it just the simple case that the passport must be valid on entry date?

Normally it needs to be valid for the duration of the visa but with PR its forever so no duration.

 

 

I think the passport just needs to be valid on the entry date.  But I recommend putting in a call to the PR section at Immigration CW to check, given the quirkiness that prevails.  It should only take a few minutes and better to be safe than sorry.  

[onthemoon]

11 hours ago, Arkady said:

 

I think the passport just needs to be valid on the entry date.  But I recommend putting in a call to the PR section at Immigration CW to check, given the quirkiness that prevails.  It should only take a few minutes and better to be safe than sorry.  

I understand that the Immigrant Visa (equivalent to a re-entry permit) must be valid at time of entry. If they stamp the visa validity into a passport that is valid less than 6 months longer than the visa (maybe even only up to the same date) the passport should be  fine I' d say, but I suggest to double-check with Chaeng Wattana.

 

If they stamp the validity longer than the passport validity, you will need a new passport for reentry into the kingdom but don't need to transfer the visa. This is what I did once, but honestly I don't remember whether this was Thailand or Cambodia, so I suggest to check with Chaeng Wattana.

 

Note: If you leave the country without an Immigrant Visa or return after it has expired, your PR will be automatically cancelled upon reentry into the kingdom. That's why you need to worry about the validity of the visa more than that of the passport.