August 29 - heavy new penalties await visa overstays: Thai Immigration

[Arkady]

Looking on the bright side, they are accepting Thai driving licences in lieu of passports. They have also not chosen to enforce prison sentences of up to 6 months as an alternative or in addition to the 20k fine as permitted in the Immigration Act. Admittedly that would cause them a lot of trouble with the courts and would cost money.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[SICHONSTEVE]

 

 I mean ok to always keep your passport but I run down to 7/11 and forget passport I get 20.000 fine and jail? Please confirm as this is crazy, so damn crazy if true.

Yes, you're breaking the law and you're a danger to Thai society. The Thais have deemed that 2 years jail is the fitting punishment for criminals like that

 

 

 I think that I am going to get passport sized pockets with a zip fastener at the top sewn into all of my underpants - I hope they have no objections to me dropping my trousers if they want me to prove that I am legit!!!!

 

 All I will have to remember is to take it out in between washes ( I might put it inside a double lined re-sealable thick plastic bag just in case I forget this step).

[Thai at Heart]

As an aside it would indeed be interesting to actually see the numbers regarding the nationalities of these '' long term over stayers.'' One wonders just how many of them  might be of western origin i.e. farangs.
 
People are perhaps seeing wrongly a witch hunt against one specific group of people as opposed to a wider range of people who  are ''overstayers'' who probably blend into the local community without any problems at all and have no need of a sunburn camouflage.

 
Yep, interesting question indeed.
 
The example given in the article is that of a Chinese woman, who deliberately overstayed (crime) so that she could work here illegally (crime). There is also mention of people buying fake Thai ID cards (crime), and obviously no white person in his/her right mind would do such a thing.
 
My feeling (but I admit I do not have the data to support it) is that the largest number of serious overstays are not 'farangs' and that, where said 'farangs' are concerned, most overstays are probably for just a few days (such as what happened to terryp).
 
Now, there are of course, as always, a few really bad sheep and that handful of scum can now officially start giggling because they are goig to cause endless problems for normal, law-abiding and peaceful visitors/expats in this country. And this, in turn, will harm the country itself, because there's a limit to how much hassle you can impose on normal tourists and/or legal residents.

None of the above offences would get solved by forcing everyone to carry a passport.

[Arkady]

Just sent this to the American Embassy via email.
 
Dear Sir or Madam.

I'm not sure if I am sending this to the correct department, so I hope that it will be passed on should that be the case.

With the recent developments in Thailand regarding overstays and visa violations, it seems new rules are coming into effect on a daily or weekly basis, adding to the mass confusion of what is and isn't legal.

Recently the Hua Hin Immigration office has stated that foreigners must carry their passport with them at all times.  There are a number is issues with this most notably having a lost or stolen passport, or even damaged one by things such as humidity and rain.  Not to mention it's inconvenient to carry.  And everyone is aware that stolen passports command a high price on the black market.  Being forced to carry your passport with you at all times means running the risk of having it stolen.

In the past, when asked for ID, usually a Thai driver license, or quality color copy of the passport was sufficient.  That now appears to have changed, and it must be the original passport.

Is it possible that the US Consulate could join with others to propose to the Thai government that they issue an ID card to long term residents, such as those on Marriage or Retirement extensions?  This card would have name, passport number, photo, and other pertinent information on it to identify the carrier, which could be quickly checked via computer to verify it.

Many of us have been here for years, have families, and have no intentions of going anywhere, and abide by the laws of Thailand.  But let's be honest, at times Thailand makes that difficult for us, and seems to delight in doing so.

If Myanmar, Lao and Cambodian workers can be issued a Thai ID, then why not other foreigners who are here legally, which would negate the carrying of the passport every day, everywhere we go.

Is there any way that the US and other Embassies could discuss this and bring it to the attention of the Thai government?

Thank you,

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[greenchair]

I have just noticed on the alien workpermit regulation. Section 4 , if you are involved with education or the arts,you do not need a permit. in line with the constitution that all type of ed is protected. However you do need a marriage or non b visa. If you have that no need for permit. However one must be careful what and where you teach. If you do not give any points or grade to be used to progress in study, you come under the informal act. Quite legal and protected. But if you give grades you would come under the formal act and need a teacher license. So if you work for a company that gives grade like wall street you need license but if you work at a small place or school that does not require you to give any grade ,just speak english.it is perfectly legal with no permit.

[Tony125]

I hope they report these overstay rules, carrying of passports at all times and reporting to immigration if changing provinces within 48 hrs to all incoming tourists and those seeking visas to visit Thailand from their home country. Will probably see tourism drop by 40% or more. Can you emagine tour groups  driving a bus load of tourists to different immigration centers having to wait in queck because they are changing provinces as they tour around Thailand.

I am on retirement visa and have home in Chon Buri and apartment in Bangkok, wife has family home as well in Phitchit. So if I want to visit these diferent areas or hop on a bus/plane to take a vacation to Phuket, Chiang Mai  wherever I have to go and visit immigration every where and report  "I'm here !" Talk about a police state!

[aaacorp]

I wonder how many of you, sermonizers, work or own a company with nominees ? Also take care of your profile which let us know that some of you had also in the past troubles with visa, overstays, nominees, bribings....

 

If you have nothing else to say, maybe it's better to stay quiet

[Mario2008]

1 political comment removed.

[Oziex1]

Just sent this to the American Embassy via email.

 

Dear Sir or Madam.

I'm not sure if I am sending this to the correct department, so I hope that it will be passed on should that be the case.

With the recent developments in Thailand regarding overstays and visa violations, it seems new rules are coming into effect on a daily or weekly basis, adding to the mass confusion of what is and isn't legal.

Recently the Hua Hin Immigration office has stated that foreigners must carry their passport with them at all times.  There are a number is issues with this most notably having a lost or stolen passport, or even damaged one by things such as humidity and rain.  Not to mention it's inconvenient to carry.  And everyone is aware that stolen passports command a high price on the black market.  Being forced to carry your passport with you at all times means running the risk of having it stolen.

In the past, when asked for ID, usually a Thai driver license, or quality color copy of the passport was sufficient.  That now appears to have changed, and it must be the original passport.

Is it possible that the US Consulate could join with others to propose to the Thai government that they issue an ID card to long term residents, such as those on Marriage or Retirement extensions?  This card would have name, passport number, photo, and other pertinent information on it to identify the carrier, which could be quickly checked via computer to verify it.

Many of us have been here for years, have families, and have no intentions of going anywhere, and abide by the laws of Thailand.  But let's be honest, at times Thailand makes that difficult for us, and seems to delight in doing so.

If Myanmar, Lao and Cambodian workers can be issued a Thai ID, then why not other foreigners who are here legally, which would negate the carrying of the passport every day, everywhere we go.

Is there any way that the US and other Embassies could discuss this and bring it to the attention of the Thai government?

Thank you,

 

Is The US embassy in the business of discussing any issues with a non democratically elected military junta? Good luck 

[Yann55]

 

 

As an aside it would indeed be interesting to actually see the numbers regarding the nationalities of these '' long term over stayers.'' One wonders just how many of them  might be of western origin i.e. farangs.
 
People are perhaps seeing wrongly a witch hunt against one specific group of people as opposed to a wider range of people who  are ''overstayers'' who probably blend into the local community without any problems at all and have no need of a sunburn camouflage.

 
Yep, interesting question indeed.
 
The example given in the article is that of a Chinese woman, who deliberately overstayed (crime) so that she could work here illegally (crime). There is also mention of people buying fake Thai ID cards (crime), and obviously no white person in his/her right mind would do such a thing.
 
My feeling (but I admit I do not have the data to support it) is that the largest number of serious overstays are not 'farangs' and that, where said 'farangs' are concerned, most overstays are probably for just a few days (such as what happened to terryp).
 
Now, there are of course, as always, a few really bad sheep and that handful of scum can now officially start giggling because they are goig to cause endless problems for normal, law-abiding and peaceful visitors/expats in this country. And this, in turn, will harm the country itself, because there's a limit to how much hassle you can impose on normal tourists and/or legal residents.

None of the above offences would get solved by forcing everyone to carry a passport.

 

 

????????????

 

There are TWO hot issues at the moment :

 

1/ New heavy penalties for overstay

2/ Obligation for all foreigners to carry their passport at all times.

 

I was commenting on the FIRST issue, which also happens to be the subject of the OP. So what ON EARTH is your comment about ? you seem to have written more than 20 000 posts on this Forum. I hope that the 19,999 others were more relevant. I also hope that you re-read them and ask yourself whether they are indeed relevant before you post them.

 

 

[dagling]

20k baht fine if i dont show my passport or 2 years in jail? 

 

No, can`t you read? 

 

"He added that starting from August 29, foreigners who failed to produce their passports would be fined up to Bt20,000 AND jailed for up to two years." 

[Chicken George]

 

For Hardy 99,
 
Being on a multi o marriage visa I go to Mai Sai every 90 days x5 for this visa 1 year and 3 months.
 
I don't actually see an immigration office with this particular visa.
 
That is why I was inquiring about going to a  local police station.
 
 
 
 

 
Why go to Mae Sai when you can go to the immigration nearby the airport? Maybe you like the road trip?

It would be because he has to go over the border every 90 days. . Visa obtained in his own country. I do miss the road trip myself. :-))

Sent from my GT-I9082 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[NickyBurma]

So on the one hand the Foreign Ministry is requested to allow Chinese nationals to enter Thailand WITHOUT A VISA as if they were diplomats or government officials. This request is made in consideration of the large number of Chinese visitors to Thailand. But on the other hand Immigration is being asked for approval to provide harsher penanlties against foreigners in Thailand ON A VISA for overstays. A bit confusing to me.
 
 

And there was a Chinese woman working here illegally doesn't get any worse then that. Should be plenty more Chinese working here illegally soon at this rate if they get a three month visa truly amazing Thailand..

[Just1Voice]

 

Just sent this to the American Embassy via email.

 

Dear Sir or Madam.

I'm not sure if I am sending this to the correct department, so I hope that it will be passed on should that be the case.

With the recent developments in Thailand regarding overstays and visa violations, it seems new rules are coming into effect on a daily or weekly basis, adding to the mass confusion of what is and isn't legal.

Recently the Hua Hin Immigration office has stated that foreigners must carry their passport with them at all times.  There are a number is issues with this most notably having a lost or stolen passport, or even damaged one by things such as humidity and rain.  Not to mention it's inconvenient to carry.  And everyone is aware that stolen passports command a high price on the black market.  Being forced to carry your passport with you at all times means running the risk of having it stolen.

In the past, when asked for ID, usually a Thai driver license, or quality color copy of the passport was sufficient.  That now appears to have changed, and it must be the original passport.

Is it possible that the US Consulate could join with others to propose to the Thai government that they issue an ID card to long term residents, such as those on Marriage or Retirement extensions?  This card would have name, passport number, photo, and other pertinent information on it to identify the carrier, which could be quickly checked via computer to verify it.

Many of us have been here for years, have families, and have no intentions of going anywhere, and abide by the laws of Thailand.  But let's be honest, at times Thailand makes that difficult for us, and seems to delight in doing so.

If Myanmar, Lao and Cambodian workers can be issued a Thai ID, then why not other foreigners who are here legally, which would negate the carrying of the passport every day, everywhere we go.

Is there any way that the US and other Embassies could discuss this and bring it to the attention of the Thai government?

Thank you,

 

Is The US embassy in the business of discussing any issues with a non democratically elected military junta? Good luck 

 

 

From someone who always sees the glass as "half empty" perhaps?  While the US Gvt may not "recognize" the coup as being legit, they ARE still working with it.  That's a fact.  And this isn't a political issue, but one concerning American citizens, just as the other consulates would do concerning their own citizens well being.  But nice to see you are still taking your "sour puss" pills on a regular basis.

 

[Thai at Heart]

 

 

As an aside it would indeed be interesting to actually see the numbers regarding the nationalities of these '' long term over stayers.'' One wonders just how many of them  might be of western origin i.e. farangs.
 
People are perhaps seeing wrongly a witch hunt against one specific group of people as opposed to a wider range of people who  are ''overstayers'' who probably blend into the local community without any problems at all and have no need of a sunburn camouflage.

 
Yep, interesting question indeed.
 
The example given in the article is that of a Chinese woman, who deliberately overstayed (crime) so that she could work here illegally (crime). There is also mention of people buying fake Thai ID cards (crime), and obviously no white person in his/her right mind would do such a thing.
 
My feeling (but I admit I do not have the data to support it) is that the largest number of serious overstays are not 'farangs' and that, where said 'farangs' are concerned, most overstays are probably for just a few days (such as what happened to terryp).
 
Now, there are of course, as always, a few really bad sheep and that handful of scum can now officially start giggling because they are goig to cause endless problems for normal, law-abiding and peaceful visitors/expats in this country. And this, in turn, will harm the country itself, because there's a limit to how much hassle you can impose on normal tourists and/or legal residents.

None of the above offences would get solved by forcing everyone to carry a passport.
 

 
????????????
 
There are TWO hot issues at the moment :
 
1/ New heavy penalties for overstay
2/ Obligation for all foreigners to carry their passport at all times.
 
I was commenting on the FIRST issue, which also happens to be the subject of the OP. So what ON EARTH is your comment about ? you seem to have written more than 20 000 posts on this Forum. I hope that the 19,999 others were more relevant. I also hope that you re-read them and ask yourself whether they are indeed relevant before you post them.
 

 

She overstayed to work by opening a business.

She gets punished heavily after committing this crime. Indeed, this may act as some level of deterrent to people coming here and opening a business and staying without proper paperwork.

How does one open a business for 30k baht as she mentioned and operate without a valid visa. Cracking down on her overstay does absolutely nothing to stop her coming here and starting a business without paperwork and necessary documents.

So great, there is a draconian crack down on overstaying. Still won't stop anyone doing what she did again will it. That requires police work and enforcement and the rule of law to achieve that.

Thailand is absolutelt great at enforcing laws that catch all comers to circumvent the need for actual up front police work.

If she had got a valid visa, her illegal company/business would still be running.

[dagling]

 

In before the 29 pages of "but my case is different than the hundreds of others asking about the same thing with the same details as me" posts that are sure to follow.

 

Of those 70k over-stayers last year (and 30k so far this year) I wonder how many are for over-stays of less than 2-3 days ? TAT claims 26.7 million tourist arrivals in 2013, so 70,000 over-stayers would represent about .0026% of that total (a quarter of 1% of the total). Doesn't seem quite the massive problem requiring draconian measures as it sounded before.

 

I might be wrong but 20,000 baht fine or 2 years in jail,, 

 

 

 

 

"He added that starting from August 29, foreigners who failed to produce their passports would be fined up to Bt20,000 AND jailed for up to two years."

[SICHONSTEVE]

 

20k baht fine if i dont show my passport or 2 years in jail? 

 

No, can`t you read? 

 

"He added that starting from August 29, foreigners who failed to produce their passports would be fined up to Bt20,000 AND jailed for up to two years." 

 

 

 So you are saying that failing to show you're passport is an automatic jail sentence to go with a fine??? I don't think so!!!!

[TheRascal]

The penalties are absolutely no big deal. Why overstay in the very first place.

When I was on my first ED visa the school made a mistake with the documents for the extension. At Chiang Wattana they asked me if I planned to leave the country (the visa was multi-entry), I told them I was visiting the UK in 7 days time: "There is no problem, you pay fine at airport". 

 

I was pissed at the school but at the time that was the advice from immigration themselves!

 

Regarding carrying my passport at all times I'm going to wait for further clarification. For me if it ends up being the rule it's the rule, I'm not going to moan about it but my guess is that it's for people that can't produce a passport at all (i.e not in the requested timeframe), not someone who fails to produce one when stopped. I may be wrong but let's wait and see. 

 

I'd expect that if it was actually "carry your passport at all times or there's a 20k fine and a chance of jail" then it would cause a problem with genuine tourism, not just us sour sods who live here. It would only take a few people to be fined a reasonable sum (which I'm sure a Brit on holiday for example would consider £400 of their spending money to be) or spend the smallest amount of time in jail and it started to be reported in western countries (where people are more than aware of the condition of Thai jails) and I'd guess it could impact visitors. There's certain situations where carrying a passport just isn't practical, unless all beaches are going to install some kind of locker facility then it's very high risk people leaving their passport with their clothes while they swim

[SuwadeeS]

It is an overreaction. Because, last year a woman shot her american boyfriend and got a 1 year jail term and a 1.000 Baht fine on probation.

 

Always a double standard in Thailand

[horsewell]

Just a thought, but I think most of these tough new laws are not so much aimed at westerners as they stick out and by and large follow the rules. It's the people from neighbouring countries that are the real target. It's much harder to distinguish them and they are much more likely to use an fake Thai ID card, especially if they can speak Thai language. They are much more likely to work, own a business or otherwise break Thai laws if they are an overstayer. The article uses the examples of the fake Thai ID card and an example of a Chinese woman. The only mention of westerners is in the photograph and that it's been written in English.

 

That is not to say that there are not westerners that do overstay and engage in illegal activities. It's just that over the 70,000 odd overstayers last year I'm sure that very few would be westerners and if they were it would be minor infractions that would be sorted out at the airport before boarding their plane.

 

I just had a quick look and couldn't find anything on the 'net but in the a book "Thai Law", Becker & Thongkaew, 2008, Paiboon Publishing with statistics from 2006:

 

Number of prisoners: ~142,000 (~108,000 convicted, the others pending appeal or waiting and 15.5% female)

Number of foreign prisoners: 12,528

By Region: 95.8% Asian, 2.3% African, 1.5% European and 0.4% American and Australian.

 

Total foreigners in prison for an offence against immigration law: 3,705 (29.6%)

Total westerners in prison for an offence against immigration law: 2.6% (less than 15 if we include all non-Asians)

 

It would be interesting to see a more recent statistic they did say that the foreign prison population jumped 20% (10K to 12K) in that one year. It does back up what I'm saying above. Even if the numbers have changed I don't think you would see much of a change in the trends.

 

http://www.correct.go.th/correct2009/upload/files/publication/DOC_AnnualReport56.pdf <- 2013 (2556) go to page 168 (or 170 in your PDF reader)

 

~10,500 of over 220,000 convicted prisoners are foreign and none of the ~9,000 people from the top 10 countries are western.

 

enough said.

[PiPiFFS]

Just been listening to a guy in a bar spouting the same bile and hatred for all overstayers calling them criminals and that they should all obey the law or F#@k off back home. After finishing his rant he then jumped onto his motorcycle without a number plate,  without out a helmet and plainly drunk and drove off the wrong way down a one way street. And those that overstay are the criminals ? 

I wonder how many posters here do the same thing ?

[Tchooptip]

He added that starting from August 29, foreigners who failed to produce their passports would be fined up to Bt20,000 and jailed for up to two years.

 

So if I simply go to the beach without my passport I could be fined Bt20,000 (not 2,000 ?)...and could be jailed for up to two years ?  

Please could someone tell me I did not understand correctly ? 

 

 

[Arkady]

And they always change the rules in such a stupid way that it is really difficult to follow the new regulations or leaves a lot of room for extortion.
Pease put the 70000 over stayers in relation to 25000000 visitors per year. That is less than 1% and the argument is only one thing: Pathetic.
Sent from my i-mobile IQ XA using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

It's interesting to note that the US rule of thumb for visa waiver countries is that their nationals must achieve a less than 3% overstay rate before they can be considered for visa waiver. In Asia Japan, Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and HK have qualified by Thailand seems a long way off. Not directly comparable but interesting.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Tomtomtom69]

Please, falang. Only money is accepted. YOU are not. 

 

Please use more politically correct terminology next time. Falang shouldn't use the word falang and as you can see from the article, it's people like this dumb Chinese woman, who thought she could blend in due to similar appearance to Chinese-Thais, who opened a stall thinking that it's OK despite having NO documents and NO valid visa. Buying Thai ID cards on the black market is also a heinous crime committed mostly by foreigners from neighboring countries who think they can blend in due to a similar physical appearance to Thais, despite often not speaking Thai much or very well.

 

I once picked up a Thai ID card, possibly fake, with a picture of an Indian looking man, with an Indian sounding name on it. Now sure, there are some Indian-Thais, but their numbers are fairly small and I believe they mostly have Thai names, at least last names. But a lost or stolen Thai ID issued to a foreign looking or sounding person did seem suspicious. I should have kept it but decided to give it to the car park operators at Asiatique where I found it on the ground while going back to my car.

[Fat Haggis]

At least the moped and jetski hirers can no longer take your passport off you as a guarantee right ??? Aye sure!!!
I'm in Ventienne right now sorting out a visa and there was between 25-30 " overstays" I was one on a one day over stay I opted to travel to Laos as opposed to getting a 15 day land crossing extension on the visa exempt, there were also a few overstays due to their work permits being cancelled along with their normal ED visas but new rules mean new procedures.
So not all overstay are the scum of the earth and these people who are sitting on their high and mighty pillars and passing judgement on others are every bit as bad as those people they chose to castigate. " Judge ye not, and ye shall not be judged" springs to mind. However if it makes you feel like someone importantly crack on, and continue to act like a saint and what goes around comes around and Karma can be a right birch !!!!

[Noi657]

All seems one way traffic, which is a shame! Be nice to see them reward the legitimate and legal farang that have settled here with wives, children and businesses, instead of being tarnished with the same brush! One size doesn't fit all!!

[starchild5]

Welcome to Global Police State. Everywhere they are tightening the screws on people who just want to live and let live.

 

It ain't nothing. Wait till this EBOLA virus thing gets hold of Thai Psyche. Its inevitable, Thailand with so many tourist, one will end up with different virus but they will tag him with Ebola and now we all have to be quarantined :)

 

This current measures are due to MH370 plane incident..Imagine what Thai authorities will do when Ebola scares comes home lol  

 

You don't want to be anywhere near retards when it comes eventually to Thailand.

 

I'm a tin foil hat guy and live in mom's basement...I love it now saying...I TOLD YOU SO... 

 

It ain't any conspiracy ...Is it now? 2 years in prison for not carrying a passport...Weimar republic here i come  

 

 

[apetley]

It's very easy to overstay, by a day. Longer than that is suspect. I booked my ticket with a flight arrival time late at night, went though immigration at 11:45pm or so, that counts as 1 day. My return ticket was 30 days later, but they counted it as 31 since I was there for the extra 15 minutes. 500 baht please. 
 
When I left, I had to pay the fine, in a lineup with a dozen or so others. Out of the massive problem of 70,000 overstayers per year, the vast majority are of this type. Very few of the old scraggler types left in Thailand now, they have moved on to 'greener' pastures. 

Should have loitered around at the back of the queue for 15 minutes and gained the extra day.
Did you not check the 'admitted until' date on the stamp?
I was caught out the othet way once on departure. Caught in a chaotic queue for nearly two hours that I had joined at 10.30pm on the last day of 30. Finally got to the Immigration desk at 12.15 am! The officer seemed to find it particularly funny putting an overstay stamp in my passport for 15 minutes of overstay.

[madpat]

Some of the replies to this topic make me laugh.

The majority of these people would love the authorities in their home country to have these powers to keep down illegal immigrants,but hey when it could affect them it becomes a harsh penalty.

 

This is Thailand it belongs to the Thai people if you dont like their laws get the hell out, there are many many westerners who would probably like to be deported because their passports have run out because they have been here so long and have no way of leaving.

 

There are many legal ways of staying long term if you search them out and invest a bit of time and money.

 

Be assured it isnt only the Thai authorities that are allegedly accepting bribes and kickbacks it happens in all societies.

[Time Traveller]

Just a thought, but I think most of these tough new laws are not so much aimed at westerners as they stick out and by and large follow the rules. It's the people from neighbouring countries that are the real target. It's much harder to distinguish them and they are much more likely to use an fake Thai ID card, especially if they can speak Thai language. They are much more likely to work, own a business or otherwise break Thai laws if they are an overstayer. The article uses the examples of the fake Thai ID card and an example of a Chinese woman. The only mention of westerners is in the photograph and that it's been written in English.

Reality check. These laws are aimed at all non-Thais. All foreigners. Yes that includes westerners.

 

In fact, these laws are designed to make it easier to target western tourists. The police can just stop any white face in the street or beach and ask for their passport otherwise some kind of bribe so they don't have to spend time in jail. Unofficially, it's the Military giving a reward to the Police for their cooperation in not opposing the coup.

 

Unfortunately the Police and Department of Labor, and Immigration are so incompentent at doing their jobs that it's come to this. Instead of doing their jobs investigating businesses suspected of operating illegally or hiring foreigners or following up the 90 day address of people who report, they either do nothing or take bribes so that illegals are still stinking up the place.  

Edited July 31, 2014 by Time Traveller