Coming to the end of the visa run - local language schools may suffer most

[inutil]

 

 

Here is my cue,
If you want them to speak English, they must live in a English speaking environment... Have watched this for years.. Any questions? Told some close Thai friends of this, their children went to foreign countries, and amazingly enough they learned English... It is no different in America.... So what is there to explain?
kilosierra

 

I have one! 

 

How on earth am i having fluent English conversations with an American accented Chinese dude at my local gym who has never left China? Did i wake up fluent in Chinese and havent realised it yet? 

 

 

 

Trying to make out that individual cases or personal experience is representative of the whole picture just seems to indicate how little the poster knows about either the issues or making a valid argument on any subject

 

I feel i must be misunderstanding you. Are you actually supporting the point that one must live in a country where English is spoken as a first language in order to be able to speak it? Do we no longer believe in teaching and education to deliver genuine results within a classroom? Arent you a teacher? Arent you teaching English in a country where English is not in fact spoken as a native language?

Am i completely failing to grasp your sarcasm or something? Or do you genuinely think the point im making is of one amazing person in a sea of billions who pulled himself up against all odds into fluency?  (a position, i might point out, which would catastrophically undermine the counterpoint i would hope i was actually making - given that it suggests that this person was an anomaly and somehow achieved success in the language despite his useless and ineffective language environment...)

 

So let me assume the best and only that i wasnt clear with my flippancy and thus remove the misunderstanding.

 

This isnt just a one off super genius who broke the mold. This is based on an education system that seems rather good (on a non individual basis) at delivering extremely high levels of English competency. Of course, i live in a nice part of a big city, so perhaps im being spoiled by all these kids. Then again, i also taught downtown with the same results... so hard to know. Let me assure you though, we arent just talking 'good'. We are talking functionally fluent and can hold a extensive conversation with you on a subject of your choosing (so long as its obviously within their own references - youre not going to have a 12 year old explain string theory). Of course, mileage varies on an INDIVIDUAL basis, but obviously  im actually not talking about individuals. Im talking about one person who is INDICATIVE of an entire educational system and its efficacy at delivering skilled English speakers. This random guy in the gym learned all his English from his schooling. Perhaps he supplemented it with movies or music for the whole accent part - or perhaps he did extra lessons from a native speaker. But it was all here, in China. What he didnt do though was move abroad. He learned his language thanks to the institutions that keep you and I in gainful employment.

 

His story, is the story of his education. He is honestly one of 100 i could tell you about. The standard of English in school here is rather high. Which can only lead me to conclude that the educational system here can in fact deliver results and that no, you dont need to live abroad to speak the language. So far from being a single isolated case, he is representative of an education system that does in fact deliver effective English. As a teacher, of course im not exactly shocked by this. Shouldnt it be a first principle of any subject teacher? If you didnt think you could teach your students your subject effectively, then why would you be a teacher?     

 

As i say, perhaps you felt i was using this person as an isolated example (despite this fundamentally undermining my point) and not paying any credit to the institutions that supported his learning. In which case this post should go some way to clearing this up. Or perhaps you do genuinely support the argument that English can only be learned in a country where its spoken as a first language in which case, well... you know... bit awkward... (:

Edited August 6, 2014 by inutil

[AYJAYDEE]

 

 

I think this article turn things around.

 

It says that visa runners are great teachers and if we wouldn't have them these great teachers would be replaced my non-native speakers, which are less good.

 

I completely disagree with that.

 

Teachers that obtain a work permit and teach have passed at least some elementary screening (by the labour department), while the visa runners never have to show any qualification at all.

Also, In my opinion the average Filipino with a degree about teaching English is still a better teacher than the average Englishman without any degree whatsoever.

 

 

judging by the grammar you have used here, I would disagree.

 

I have no degree about teaching English and I am not Filipino and I don't plan to teach. So, you better leave the judging.

 

then how are you qualified to judge who makes the better english teacher?

[Gulfsailor]

Can I politely ask the 'English' teachers posting in this thread to double check their posts before hitting the actual 'Post' button. The amount of grammar, punctuation and syntax errors in most posts is truly appalling. I am not a native English speaker but this thread clearly proves that it is better to have an educated and licensed non-native speaker teach English (whom I was taught by) than the typical uneducated native speaker most Thais encounter in these so-called language schools. No wonder the level of English proficiency is so low amongst Thais. It's about time an effort is made to get some real teachers.

[casualbiker]

Can I politely ask the 'English' teachers posting in this thread to double check their posts before hitting the actual 'Post' button. The amount of grammar, punctuation and syntax errors in most posts is truly appalling. I am not a native English speaker but this thread clearly proves that it is better to have an educated and licensed non-native speaker teach English (whom I was taught by) than the typical uneducated native speaker most Thais encounter in these so-called language schools. No wonder the level of English proficiency is so low amongst Thais. It's about time an effort is made to get some real teachers.

It just proves this is an informal forum where people usually just relax and post on without grammar nazis having a dig!

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[AYJAYDEE]

Can I politely ask the 'English' teachers posting in this thread to double check their posts before hitting the actual 'Post' button. The amount of grammar, punctuation and syntax errors in most posts is truly appalling. I am not a native English speaker but this thread clearly proves that it is better to have an educated and licensed non-native speaker teach English (whom I was taught by) than the typical uneducated native speaker most Thais encounter in these so-called language schools. No wonder the level of English proficiency is so low amongst Thais. It's about time an effort is made to get some real teachers.

how will taking the time to type correctly get better trained english teachers?

[chrisinth]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

 

'During his five years working for the institution, however, Jon said he has never even come close to obtaining a work permit, despite being a university graduate and holding a teaching certificate.'

 

This guy isn't the brightest of sparks, if he has the qualifications he can get a WP and Visa, something you learn quite quickly when you're a teacher here is don't work for teaching agencies, leave that for the unqualified ones. Time to get your act together Jon. Pol Col Voravat's comments seem very reasonable, none of us like guys turning up from other countries and working illegally in our countries. Think on..

 

I'm not sure if that is a valid observation or not. If Jon indeed has a degree and teaching certificate, perhaps the school he was teaching at was in a location that suited his needs.

 

I agree in an ideal world he should cover himself with WP & extension, but things don't always work out ideally.................

[tubby johnson]

Can I politely ask the 'English' teachers posting in this thread to double check their posts before hitting the actual 'Post' button. The amount of grammar, punctuation and syntax errors in most posts is truly appalling. I am not a native English speaker but this thread clearly proves that it is better to have an educated and licensed non-native speaker teach English (whom I was taught by) than the typical uneducated native speaker most Thais encounter in these so-called language schools. No wonder the level of English proficiency is so low amongst Thais. It's about time an effort is made to get some real teachers.

how will taking the time to type correctly get better trained english teachers?

How will lacking the literacy and desire to learn correct grammar/ spelling/ punctuation turn you into a proper English teacher?

With unmotivated "native" English teachers like these, no wonder Thai students' English proficiency ranks below Laos and Cambodia. Woeful.

[AYJAYDEE]

 

 

Can I politely ask the 'English' teachers posting in this thread to double check their posts before hitting the actual 'Post' button. The amount of grammar, punctuation and syntax errors in most posts is truly appalling. I am not a native English speaker but this thread clearly proves that it is better to have an educated and licensed non-native speaker teach English (whom I was taught by) than the typical uneducated native speaker most Thais encounter in these so-called language schools. No wonder the level of English proficiency is so low amongst Thais. It's about time an effort is made to get some real teachers.

how will taking the time to type correctly get better trained english teachers?

How will lacking the literacy and desire to learn correct grammar/ spelling/ punctuation turn you into a proper English teacher?

With unmotivated "native" English teachers like these, no wonder Thai students' English proficiency ranks below Laos and Cambodia. Woeful.

 

If I wanted to be an English teacher, I would take the time to use proper punctuation, spelling, capitalization and grammar. When I'm in an informal chat room I don't bother. I was speaking the Queen's English before you were born and don't need you to lecture me on my proficiency.

[wilcopops]

 

 

Can I politely ask the 'English' teachers posting in this thread to double check their posts before hitting the actual 'Post' button. The amount of grammar, punctuation and syntax errors in most posts is truly appalling. I am not a native English speaker but this thread clearly proves that it is better to have an educated and licensed non-native speaker teach English (whom I was taught by) than the typical uneducated native speaker most Thais encounter in these so-called language schools. No wonder the level of English proficiency is so low amongst Thais. It's about time an effort is made to get some real teachers.

how will taking the time to type correctly get better trained english teachers?

How will lacking the literacy and desire to learn correct grammar/ spelling/ punctuation turn you into a proper English teacher?

With unmotivated "native" English teachers like these, no wonder Thai students' English proficiency ranks below Laos and Cambodia. Woeful.

 

 

 

"With unmotivated "native" English teachers like these, no wonder Thai students' English proficiency ranks below Laos and Cambodia. Woeful."

 

- and how have you determined the relative motivation of teachers in these two countries?

[virtualtraveller]

Thailand can't afford to be fussy. When it gets its house in order, can guarantee that the visa application process is fair, free of corruption or petty bribe 'barriers', and formulates a process to vet applicants fairly and quickly, then schools will get work permits for their teachers. With a little flexibility and foresight they would set up a special dispensation to allow non-degree persons to undergo a training course that includes volunteer teaching to under privileged schools in order to gain a temporary teachers' licence, and they can also clean up the whole TEFL certificate industry at the same time. By adding a simple test of Thai at the end of each 12 month ed visa renewal, increasing in stages of difficulty for each additional year, they can solve the fraud in the Thai language industry. Instead you get this mallet to a drawing pin approach that severely inconveniences many genuine people, because they're too lazy to apply some of their visa fee income to proper screening.

[simon43]

It just proves this is an informal forum where people usually just relax and post on without grammar nazis having a dig!

 

If you teach English, I would assume that when you post on an informal forum, your grammar and spelling is of the same level as you would use in the classroom.

 

Why should you suddenly introduce spelling and/or grammatical mistakes into your posts, just because you're not in the classroom?  That doesn't make sense.....

[AYJAYDEE]

 

It just proves this is an informal forum where people usually just relax and post on without grammar nazis having a dig!

 

If you teach English, I would assume that when you post on an informal forum, your grammar and spelling is of the same level as you would use in the classroom.

 

Why should you suddenly introduce spelling and/or grammatical mistakes into your posts, just because you're not in the classroom?  That doesn't make sense.....

 

because folks type quickly without worrying about errors. and many here are two finger hunt and peckers and not experienced typists.just because it doesnt make sense to you means little.

[simon43]

_{because folks type quickly without worrying about errors. and many here are two finger hunt and peckers and not experienced typists.just because it doesnt make sense to you means little.}

_[/quote]

 

 

_{I'm quite happy for posters to mutilate the English language if:}

 

_{- English is not their native tongue}

_{- They are not teachers of English}

 

_{Call me old-fashioned, but an English teacher should be able to write correct English.  (The occasional typo is acceptable, but no parent would agree to their children being taught English by a teacher who is unable to compose a simple sentence without making grammatical mistakes).}

 

_{But this is going completely off-topic}

Edited August 7, 2014 by simon43

[casualbiker]

[quote name="simon43" post="8209725" timestamp="1407380108"][quote][/quote]
<sub>because folks type quickly without worrying about errors. and many here are two finger hunt and peckers and not experienced typists.just because it doesnt make sense to you means little.
[/quote]
 
 
I'm quite happy for posters to mutilate the English language if:
 
- English is not their native tongue
- They are not teachers of English
 
Call me old-fashioned, but an English teacher should be able to write correct English.  (The occasional typo is acceptable, but no parent would agree to their children being taught English by a teacher who is unable to compose a simple sentence without making grammatical mistakes).
 
But this is going completely off-topic</sub> [/quote]

Yes and no. Sometimes I like others on the forum will quickly flash of an answer while doing other things. Just like this post!

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[tubby johnson]

 

It just proves this is an informal forum where people usually just relax and post on without grammar nazis having a dig!

 
If you teach English, I would assume that when you post on an informal forum, your grammar and spelling is of the same level as you would use in the classroom.
 
Why should you suddenly introduce spelling and/or grammatical mistakes into your posts, just because you're not in the classroom?  That doesn't make sense.....
 

because folks type quickly without worrying about errors. and many here are two finger hunt and peckers and not experienced typists.just because it doesnt make sense to you means little.

Q.E.D.

However, if you're in such a hurry to type, you should reconsider before using painful expressions like "two finger hunt and peckers". The victims of your hunt might not appreciate being fondled that way.

[transam]

A "teacher" should be spot on with stuff, nooooooooooooo excuses. Surely everyone reads their post before posting.   

[tubby johnson]

[quote name="casualbiker" post="8209748" timestamp="1407380356"][quote name="simon43" post="8209725" timestamp="1407380108"][quote][/quote]
<sub>because folks type quickly without worrying about errors. and many here are two finger hunt and peckers and not experienced typists.just because it doesnt make sense to you means little.
[/quote]
 
 
I'm quite happy for posters to mutilate the English language if:
 
- English is not their native tongue
- They are not teachers of English
 
Call me old-fashioned, but an English teacher should be able to write correct English.  (The occasional typo is acceptable, but no parent would agree to their children being taught English by a teacher who is unable to compose a simple sentence without making grammatical mistakes).
 
But this is going completely off-topic</sub> [/quote]

Yes and no. Sometimes I like others on the forum will quickly flash of an answer while doing other things. Just like this post!

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app[/quote]

"Sometimes I like others on the forum"
This, dear teacher, is why commas and other punctuation marks are so important.

[casualbiker]

[quote name="tubby johnson" post="8209881" timestamp="1407381818"][quote name="casualbiker" post="8209748" timestamp="1407380356"][quote name="simon43" post="8209725" timestamp="1407380108"][quote][/quote]
<sub>because folks type quickly without worrying about errors. and many here are two finger hunt and peckers and not experienced typists.just because it doesnt make sense to you means little.
[/quote]
 
 
I'm quite happy for posters to mutilate the English language if:
 
- English is not their native tongue
- They are not teachers of English
 
Call me old-fashioned, but an English teacher should be able to write correct English.  (The occasional typo is acceptable, but no parent would agree to their children being taught English by a teacher who is unable to compose a simple sentence without making grammatical mistakes).
 
But this is going completely off-topic</sub> [/quote]

Yes and no. Sometimes I like others on the forum will quickly flash of an answer while doing other things. Just like this post!

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app[/quote]

"Sometimes I like others on the forum"
This, dear teacher, is why commas and other punctuation marks are so important.[/quote]

Tubby the grammar inspector. Sod off!

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[inutil]

Can I politely ask the 'English' teachers posting in this thread to double check their posts before hitting the actual 'Post' button. The amount of grammar, punctuation and syntax errors in most posts is truly appalling. I am not a native English speaker but this thread clearly proves that it is better to have an educated and licensed non-native speaker teach English (whom I was taught by) than the typical uneducated native speaker most Thais encounter in these so-called language schools. No wonder the level of English proficiency is so low amongst Thais. It's about time an effort is made to get some real teachers.

 

Im assuming im the culprit here. No. Not really. :) 

[simon43]

"Sometimes I like others on the forum"
This, dear teacher, is why commas and other punctuation marks are so important.

 

  

[AYJAYDEE]

 

 

 

It just proves this is an informal forum where people usually just relax and post on without grammar nazis having a dig!

 
If you teach English, I would assume that when you post on an informal forum, your grammar and spelling is of the same level as you would use in the classroom.
 
Why should you suddenly introduce spelling and/or grammatical mistakes into your posts, just because you're not in the classroom?  That doesn't make sense.....
 

because folks type quickly without worrying about errors. and many here are two finger hunt and peckers and not experienced typists.just because it doesnt make sense to you means little.

Q.E.D.

However, if you're in such a hurry to type, you should reconsider before using painful expressions like "two finger hunt and peckers". The victims of your hunt might not appreciate being fondled that way.

 

your interpretation of a common expression speaks volumes about you and little about my hurry.

[larsjohnsson]

Here is my cue,
If you want them to speak English, they must live in a English speaking environment... Have watched this for years.. Any questions? Told some close Thai friends of this, their children went to foreign countries, and amazingly enough they learned English... It is no different in America.... So what is there to explain?
kilosierra

In many other countries they learn to speak English without living in " a English speaking environment"

[brewsterbudgen]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

 

 

Here is my cue,
If you want them to speak English, they must live in a English speaking environment... Have watched this for years.. Any questions? Told some close Thai friends of this, their children went to foreign countries, and amazingly enough they learned English... It is no different in America.... So what is there to explain?
kilosierra

 

i don't think that is true for any language. There are so many Ex-pats living in Thailand for many years and still unable to put together a sentence other than order a beer.  have you been to the USA lately? There are tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of South Americans living in the USA that are unable to speak English even though they have lived in the USA for many many years (most illegally). My wife has never been to the USA and she speaks English very well. She learned English in the university and after meeting me her continue use of English she got better. She was always looking up words expanding her vocabulary on her own.

 

As for the people talking about a English teacher should not need a degree. I feel bad for the teachers without degrees, but i have to admit i would agree that a teacher should need a degree. You are required to have a degree to teach in the USA, Canada, UK etc. and it is required in Thailand and should be enforced,

If you want to be a teacher in Thailand get a degree. i wanted to be an electrical Engineer i had to get a degree to do that. Prior to getting my degree I was working for an engineering company building panels and overtime I was capable of doing the Engineering work that needed to be done for this company but I was stuck as a panel builder since i did not have the degree. i went to school to be able to get the job I wanted. 

 

 

A degree is not required for TEFL in the UK. However, a proper TEFL qualification and classroom experience are.

[PattayaPhom]

I would love to work here legally teaching English, but I'm on a retirement visa, and I am very aware of the numbers of illegal English teachers here. Given this crackdown, wouldn't it be a good idea to provide work permits to those of us on NON-IMM (ED or Retirement) visas, and perhaps also subsidise students who wish to learn. We could clear up the English language problems easily in a year and then Thailand would not be an embarrassment within the ASEAN/AEC. Or is that all too easy?

Why not just make it easier for existing teachers to obtain WPs

[Chao Lao Beach]

I am here from many years and I've spent a lot of money to do all the paperwork to stay here legally with a work permit, over 100k per year in taxes, fees, accounting, fly to KL every 3 months, then, they told me that they will not renew my work permit until I hire 4 Thai nationals, what a joke I work two hours a day, I certainly not have work for four thai people, in the meantime I bring about 150k of fresh money every month in the country. So technicaly there is no solution for me as I not really work in thailand, I just answer to the phone and write a few emails a day, I manage a company in Europa. I got my WP refused, I was cheated by my accountant not paying my taxes and not doing the job, I went to 5 different accountant to compare and 4 on 5 was no serious, constantly hiding fees or lying. Staying here legally is a nightmare. Alternatively Elitecard light is 500k upfront, but will I have the right to work here ?

 

If this chap above is not married to a Thai, and below 50yo, is there any reasonable solution for him ?
 

[ATF]

 

I am here from many years and I've spent a lot of money to do all the paperwork to stay here legally with a work permit, over 100k per year in taxes, fees, accounting, fly to KL every 3 months, then, they told me that they will not renew my work permit until I hire 4 Thai nationals, what a joke I work two hours a day, I certainly not have work for four thai people, in the meantime I bring about 150k of fresh money every month in the country. So technicaly there is no solution for me as I not really work in thailand, I just answer to the phone and write a few emails a day, I manage a company in Europa. I got my WP refused, I was cheated by my accountant not paying my taxes and not doing the job, I went to 5 different accountant to compare and 4 on 5 was no serious, constantly hiding fees or lying. Staying here legally is a nightmare. Alternatively Elitecard light is 500k upfront, but will I have the right to work here ?

 

If this chap above is not married to a Thai, and below 50yo, is there any reasonable solution for him ?
 

 

 

If he wants to "Physically Work" he must employ Thai staff and have a WP. If he is an investor or shareholder or director there is no need for a WP but he must keep his hands off the tools. So in the latter case a non-imm B visa is all that is req. For example he invests money to be a partner in a restaurant WP not req.
 

[ericthai]

I am here from many years and I've spent a lot of money to do all the paperwork to stay here legally with a work permit, over 100k per year in taxes, fees, accounting, fly to KL every 3 months, then, they told me that they will not renew my work permit until I hire 4 Thai nationals, what a joke I work two hours a day, I certainly not have work for four thai people, in the meantime I bring about 150k of fresh money every month in the country. So technicaly there is no solution for me as I not really work in thailand, I just answer to the phone and write a few emails a day, I manage a company in Europa. I got my WP refused, I was cheated by my accountant not paying my taxes and not doing the job, I went to 5 different accountant to compare and 4 on 5 was no serious, constantly hiding fees or lying. Staying here legally is a nightmare. Alternatively Elitecard light is 500k upfront, but will I have the right to work here ?

 
If this chap above is not married to a Thai, and below 50yo, is there any reasonable solution for him ?

Sure hire 4 thais and then we will be illegible to get his work permit. I dont know why he was traveling to KL every 3 months. All you need to do is get an extension of stay from immigration, no need to leave the county. As for the accountant it can happen anywhere, but if you are going to have a company you should not just let an account have free access to your bank accounts and should be getting a monthly report. So that is no fault of Thailand.