Gaza school strike 'criminal' - UN

[F430murci]

Gotta say, Israel is starting to look more and more out control.

This is a pretty damning article against Israel in NY Times.

---------

JERUSALEM Minutes after Israel began a unilateral and partial cease-fire in Gaza on Monday, the air force struck a house in the Shati refugee camp in Gaza City, killing a girl, 8, and wounding at least 29 others.

More than three hours later, there was still no official comment about the strike from the Israeli military, which continued to withdraw many of its ground forces from populated areas in Gaza, about why it struck the house.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/08/05/world/middleeast/israel-gaza.html?_r=0&referrer=

[Jingthing]

So, yet again, we have the old canard that anyone who criticises Israel is at best biased, and probably Judeophobic, anti Semitic and a neo Nazi as well!

Sometimes true. Just look at the ideology of Hamas.

[7by7]

But you, and others, direct those accusations at anyone who criticises Israel; not just Hamas!

[mania]

So, yet again, we have the old canard that anyone who criticises Israel is at best biased, and probably Judeophobic, anti Semitic and a neo Nazi as well!

The upside to the Israeli apologist excuse makers using that "antisemite" card so often is that it has worn so thin it

is of little value as a description.

Perhaps a new card could be made or heck a T-shirt.

I would buy a "I am Anti Bibi" T

It is a weak ploy to automatically label anyone calling the Israeli governments actions deplorable an antisemite.

Does not hold up in the light of day though. Nor does it disguise the proof of their actions

Edited August 4, 2014 by mania

[7by7]

You have obviously never been in the military. Have you ever heard of the fog of war? It is never that simple and the US army makes plenty of mistakes too. Remember the Chinese embassy in Belgrade?

Oh well, that's all right then.

The slaughter of innocent civilians by the IDF is a mistake.

That will bring comfort to their families.

[Jingthing]

But you, and others, direct those accusations at anyone who criticises Israel; not just Hamas!

You're wrong. You can say that 1000 times but it's just a fiction you have created to try to make your POV sound reasonable. I have never said, NEVER, that there is anything wrong with reasoned criticism of Israel policies. You are play acting the victim of an assault that is non-existent. However, if your rhetoric bleeds into hate speech, that's on YOU, so up to you.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Jingthing

[Kalebiran]

Barbaric

[Ulysses G.]

But you, and others, direct those accusations at anyone who criticises Israel; not just Hamas!

You're wrong. You can say that 1000 times but it's just a fiction you have created to try to make your POV sound reasonable. I have never said, NEVER, that there is anything wrong with reasoned criticism of Israel policies. You are play acting the victim of an assault that is non-existent. However, if your rhetoric bleeds into hate speech, that's on YOU, so up to you.

It is just his usual spin. All the blame goes to Israel, but how could you possibly think that he is taking sides?

Edited August 4, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

Barbaric

Unami

[Ulysses G.]

Gotta say, Israel is starting to look more and more out control.

Hamas rejected the ceasefire and fired a bunch of rockets just as it was supposed to start. The official explanation should be interesting.

[kblaze]

The important words in that being VACANT and BETWEEN!

You don't consider placing rockets between two UN Shelters, with 1,500 people taking shelter there, evidence that Hamas is perfectly happy if they get hit?

Sure Hamas could be happy, ok fine.

But your missing the point. These schools where the UN found rockets aren't the schools being hit

[sustento]

Gotta say, Israel is starting to look more and more out control.

Hamas rejected the ceasefire and fired a bunch of rockets just as it was supposed to start. The official explanation should be interesting.

Hamas weren't asked about the ceasefire. It was unilateral. This wasn't yesterday's ceasefire - this was today's ceasefire. It usually pays to actually read an article before you criticise it.

"JERUSALEM — Minutes after Israel began a unilateral and partial cease-fire in Gaza on Monday, the air force struck a house in the Shati refugee camp in Gaza City, killing a girl, 8, and wounding at least 29 others."

[Kalebiran]

Barbaric

Unami

evil

[Jingthing]

As far as the very controversial Israeli attacks on military targets too close to civilians, I do have an opinion.

1. Some are clearly just tragic mistakes. That's just war. Kind of like friendly fire ... bad stuff happens.

2. Israel has the right to defend itself against aggressive military targets. Hamas clearly does put military targets in highly populated areas. That is an ethical problem for Israel. They have to seek some kind of balance between going after these targets, reducing their military dead (ground operations mean more casualties), the loss of innocent life coming from their attacks, and of course the international foreign relations hit from the results.

This is not an easy choice.

3. My opinion is that there is no genocide here. There is no proof of INTENTIONALITY in murdering civilians. Yes, in war situations, collateral damage is a real thing and it involves real horrible deaths of innocents.

4. In any case where intentionality of murdering civilians (not a mistake) of course I would hope that could be prosecuted against Israelis or any people doing that. But see point 3. You won't find it as a policy ... you might find it with the behavior of individual soldiers.

My opinion is that I would wish Israel would do more to reduce the number of inevitable innocent civilian deaths. I know they have taken steps, but I seriously doubt they have done all they can do. But I have an understanding that in war decisions are made based on keeping more of your side alive and more of the military targets dead. So yes the innocent civilians are in the way. Wouldn't it be arrogant for me, or anyone, to presume to tell Israeli authorities that they should intentionally sacrifice people from their own side?

Edited August 4, 2014 by Jingthing

[dundee48]

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Washington (CNN) -- Divided on other issues, U.S. lawmakers united in support of Israel on Friday with the Senate approving another $225 million for the Iron Dome missile defense system.
The House followed Friday night by voting 395-8 in favor of the measure.

Good for them. America is united against Islamic terrorism. alt=thumbsup.gif>

Well, maybe they should not be so surprised then when the next 911 comes. Congress is totally irresponsible spending US taxpayers money putting US citizens in harm's way.

Would you condone the next 9/11 terrorist attack?

[F430murci]

But you, and others, direct those accusations at anyone who criticises Israel; not just Hamas!

You are pro-Muslim/Islam to a fault so don't play that whinny card.

[F430murci]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Washington (CNN) -- Divided on other issues, U.S. lawmakers united in support of Israel on Friday with the Senate approving another $225 million for the Iron Dome missile defense system.

The House followed Friday night by voting 395-8 in favor of the measure.

Good for them. America is united against Islamic terrorism. alt=thumbsup.gif>

Well, maybe they should not be so surprised then when the next 911 comes. Congress is totally irresponsible spending US taxpayers money putting US citizens in harm's way.

Would you condone the next 9/11 terrorist attack?

That was a disturbing comment by Dextrem that perhaps speaks volumes about him. Regardless as to what we do in Israel or anywhere, Islam/terrorist crackpots will try to perpetrate other 911s if we ever let our guard down again. These Hamas/Al-Queda types just want to kill and will try and do so regardless of excuse or even if no excuse is present.

[Kalebiran]

It was disturbing because Israels actions supported by the USA gives strength to those who have families murdered. It is not extreme to suggest the possibility/likelihood. The BBC in Uk had a discussion on this issue recently and debate even among the "intelligent" parts of the USA. http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21610312-pummelling-gaza-has-cost-israel-sympathy-not-just-europe-also-among-americans

Edited August 4, 2014 by Kalebiran

[dundee48]

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The important words in that being VACANT and BETWEEN!

You don't consider placing rockets between two UN Shelters, with 1,500 people taking shelter there, evidence that Hamas is perfectly happy if they get hit?

Sure Hamas could be happy, ok fine.

But your missing the point. These schools where the UN found rockets aren't the schools being hit

OK,They only use some schools.

[Farfetched]

"Sorry, the ideology of Hamas is to regain the land the......"

Please do a little research before you talk about What Hamas is doing. What land was stolen from Hamas. Hamas is an organization formed in 1987. They came to power in the Gaza strip after winning several fights with Fatah. All you need to do is google them and their whole sordid story comes out.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Farfetched

[Commander Tamson]

.....mmmm...,..is this thread Thai related in anyway?

Just thought I ask a hypocrite or two

[Jingthing]

.....mmmm...,..is this thread Thai related in anyway?

Just thought I ask a hypocrite or two

It's in the world news forum, dude.

[F430murci]

It was disturbing because Israels actions supported by the USA gives strength to those who have families murdered. It is not extreme to suggest the possibility/likelihood. The BBC in Uk had a discussion on this issue recently and debate even among the "intelligent" parts of the USA. http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21610312-pummelling-gaza-has-cost-israel-sympathy-not-just-europe-also-among-americans

Nah, "intelligent parts of the US" realize that some people are just inherently evil or deranged, have nothing to live for except causing harm to others, live an ideological life controlled and influenced by nutcase/terrorists and will seek to harm those that are actually happy and more fortunate (US citizens) than them because they are driven by rage, hate and resentment. Accordingly, nothing we do or don't do will have any impact on those loser terrorists that actually seek to harm the US.

Fortunately, we are well armed and spying well so these nutcase terrorists whom have nothing to live for but suicidal missions will live unfulfilled loser lives or resort to soft targets within their own country that make little sense. Heck, these whack jobs even seem to enjoy blowing each other up, so perhaps it is not just hate toward the US. Perhaps, they just like killing or causing the death of others when they are not out stoning, acid washing or mercy killing their wives and daughters. Dang glad most of them are dumb enough to do it suicide style so at least they took themselves off this planet as well.

Edited August 4, 2014 by F430murci

[Ulysses G.]

They certainly do kill each other, a lot more than anyone else. You might have a point.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

It's Genocide. Israelis plan is to take Gaza. It's clear now. Though of course they will deny it.

Regrettable as the casualty toll is, it is does not amount to genocide.

Calling this a genocide would imply that quite a lot of warfare instances around the globe are genocides.

By using this term repeatedly you just demean it.

[Morch]

It's Genocide. Israelis plan is to take Gaza. It's clear now. Though of course they will deny it.

the only people that believe their cleverly scripted lies are the Israeli public.

Well, you believe that it is a genocide. And you believe that Israel wished to take Gaza.

What does this make you?

A genocide is something on quite a different scope than this, and the IDF is in the process of withdrawing from the

Gaza Strip.

[Morch]

When you use women and children as human shields, civilians die. No more criminal than Friendly Fire. Stuff happens. Get over it. Israel has the right to defend itself against Hamas, a terrorist organization. OK, you can attack me now.

Under international law, Israel is distorting the definition of legitimate military targets and what constitutes a human shield. Using spin to give itself carte blanche to fire willy nilly where it likes.

In order to qualify as a military objective, the object must be used for a military purpose and its total or partial destruction would result in a definite military advantage. Only military objectives can be lawful or legitimate objects of an attack.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/07/what-not-target-israel-201472915346949642.html

If you can't precisely hit a militant firing a rocket or as in this case 3 IJ on riding on a motorbike near the school, then it is illegal under international law to fire heavy weaponry recklessly where you might hit a civilian target.Israel has repeatedly broken this law in the present conflict.

It is just spinning the use of the term Human Shield which has a precise definition also in international law which involves forcing civilians to directly assist in military operations. Children sleeping in a school that IDF had repeatedly been given the coordinates for do not fit this criterion.

Israel knows exactly the definition of human shields ...they have in the past used them often enough

http://www.dci-palestine.org/sites/default/files/bearingthebruntagain.pdf

According to your learned legal opinion, do any of the Hamas actions during this conflict merit similar attention?

Not as in who is more evil. Not as justification for either side. Just wondering if as an expert in international law,

there is something worth mentioning about it?

Also, how did such efforts go on previous instances of this conflict? Did much of it ever reach a court? Or did that

apply only to specific incidents rather than the whole fighting? Were many Israelis actually convicted by world courts?

Before whipping out the UNHRC or anything of this sort - you were talking about legal terms, and the question was

about legal terms and legal outcomes. Not about public opinion and posters moral outrage.

[Morch]

When you use women and children as human shields, civilians die. No more criminal than Friendly Fire. Stuff happens. Get over it. Israel has the right to defend itself against Hamas, a terrorist organization. OK, you can attack me now.

Listened to a radio interview with an Israeli military spokeman. He said they were tracking, from the air, some Hamas people on motorbikes & they happened to fire when they were passing the school. I wouldn't call that using human shields, but a terrible error of judgement by whoever opened fire.

When you look at photos of the Rafah area, apartment blocks have been destroyed, with the resultant civilian casualities. Reporters claim artillery fire was used, I have to question the neccessity for this level of killings of civilians.

I would agree that better judgement seemed to be lacking in quite a few instances during the fighting.

Things got messier once the ground move rolled on, that's for sure.

[Morch]

Of course. When a terrorist group shoots thousands of rockets at civilian areas in a sovereign country they are going to be stopped. Any country on earth would be doing the same thing.

Yes the Israeli civilian deaths are quite alarming compared to the Palestinians.

Not really. The Israelis have worked hard to protect their civilians by developing Iran Dome and providing bomb shelters to prevent casualties.

Israel gets $3.5 billion in US aid to help them build their shelters and Congress just increased funds to pay for Iron Dome . It's easy to be philanthropic, when you have a rich uncle with blood on his hands too.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/01/politics/congress-israel-iron-dome/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Washington (CNN) -- Divided on other issues, U.S. lawmakers united in support of Israel on Friday with the Senate approving another $225 million for the Iron Dome missile defense system.

The House followed Friday night by voting 395-8 in favor of the measure.

The USA aid budget to Israel is not used for building shelters, but is mostly earmarked for purchases from USA weapon

firms. In effect, it can be seen as a subsidy for the USA weapon industry. The current budget approved is $225 million,

and not $3.5 billion.

Hamas, on the other hand, spend quite a lot of money and resources on building a network of tunnels, which was not

utilized as shelter for the population.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Morch

[Morch]

When you use women and children as human shields, civilians die. No more criminal than Friendly Fire. Stuff happens. Get over it. Israel has the right to defend itself against Hamas, a terrorist organization. OK, you can attack me now.

Interesting. I thought that history tells us that the (people of Israel) sent their women and children in front when they landed in British controlled Palestine all those years ago, when the British army had orders not to let them ashore. Is it not politically correct that Palestine was there first?

Were they shooting at the Brits at they were heading ashore?