Gaza school strike 'criminal' - UN

[kblaze]

Well according to one of the most famous Israelis of all time Abba Eban, there are only two kinds of criticism of Zionism;

"You are either an anti-Semite or a self-hating Jew".

You are a fount of knowledge about everything negative ever said by one Jew about another and the inside scoop on every single Jew that works for the media worldwide. Do you get this stuff from those helpful websites that keep folks up to date on the international Jewish conspiracy?

Nah, I don't believe in conspiracy twaddle.

[Chicog]

Another UN school has just been deliberately attacked in Gaza. Killing more innocent civilians. This after IDF were sent the coordinates to the school so it would not be attacked.

Anywhere else in the world and the western hypocritical organisations such as the EU and NATO would be enforcing a no fly zone. Absolutely disgraceful.

But in fairness, this time the UN and the US have been using "sharp criticism" and strong words like "appalling".

I mean sooner or later that's got to have an effect, right?

[dexterm]

Well according to one of the most famous Israelis of all time Abba Eban, there are only two kinds of criticism of Zionism;

"You are either an anti-Semite or a self-hating Jew".

You are a fount of knowledge about everything negative ever said by one Jew about another and the inside scoop on every single Jew that works for the media worldwide. Do you get this stuff from those helpful websites that keep folks up to date on the international Jewish conspiracy?

i predict a huge growth in such websites and in the number of contributors

Thanks to the Israeli apologist posters here, I am building up quite a database of Zionist myth busts myself.

It's so easy debating Zionists because they tell so many transparent lies.... Israel only wants to live in peace with its neighbors, then throws up every obstacle (land grabs, illegal colonies,refusal to abide by UN resolutions and the Geneva Convention, targeted assassinations, collective punishment and invasions, new preconditions for peace talks, Gaza blockade etc etc), in the way of achieving it over the last 50 years.

Israel: a country with a problem for every solution.

Edited August 4, 2014 by dexterm

[Jingthing]

Well according to one of the most famous Israelis of all time Abba Eban, there are only two kinds of criticism of Zionism;

"You are either an anti-Semite or a self-hating Jew".

You are a fount of knowledge about everything negative ever said by one Jew about another and the inside scoop on every single Jew that works for the media worldwide. Do you get this stuff from those helpful websites that keep folks up to date on the international Jewish conspiracy?

i predict a huge growth in such websites and in the number of contributors

You're probably right.

[khunken]

"Zionism" and the modern nation state of Israel are not the same thing as current Israeli policies. Most of the Jews in the world who are critical of current Israeli policy still support the existence of the state of Israel. Like when I opposed Bush in Iraq I was still in favor of the USA continuing to exist. Trying to explain the complexities of "Zionism" to people who are obviously deeply hostile to the existence of the state of Israel (and yes also quite often Judeophobic) is a black hole. Look at wiki or something. There are indeed a very small percentage of Jews in the world who are opposed to the existence of the state of Israel. I think Israel can cope with that level of dissent from Jews to its very existence.

That's all very well although the current settlement building policy is very much a part of Zionism.

Jews in the video I watched didn't express any hostility towards the state of Israeli - only the genocidal policies of the current supremacist leadership as well as Zionism.

Yet again you can't seem to accept that criticism of Zionism (or the Israeli leadership) does not mean being 'deeply hostile' to Israel's existence.

There you go again. Your understanding of what is Zionism is extremely biased and absurdly narrow. You seem to think that only extreme right wing Zionism (such as of active right wing settlers) is Zionism. That is simply not true. That's why I think it's a waste of time even talking to people who try to force such a narrow definition of Zionism. Might as well drop the word in discussions. If you don't like settlements (I don't either) then talk about that. Don't pretend you know what Zionism is ... because it just muddies what could be at least a semi-coherent discussion. If not, at least take the energy to QUALIFY your attacks on Zionism with explaining you are only talking about right wing Zionists.

In a previous thread you posted your take on Zionism - there were 5 principles as far as I remember.

I accepted 3 and rejected two. One of those rejects was the use of biblical (or maybe Torah) stories to justify the Jews grabbing the land on which those stories were supposed to be based. This is what is supposed to justify settlement building.

Again I based my response on what you posted. Now I don't know if you were using right-wing Zionism or not, but I'm prepared to learn if you want to explain the difference between right-wing Zionism and whatever the other version is called.

[Jingthing]

I don't think that was me. I am not interested in an academic discussion of Zionism. I suggest reading a book. On current events, I suggest just saying what you mean without muddying it with high concepts you clearly don't understand. For example. if you're against settlers, why not be clear and just say that? That's a concrete issue people can get their head around with falling into a black hole of competitive rhetoric.

[coma]

Another UN school has just been deliberately attacked in Gaza. Killing more innocent civilians. This after IDF were sent the coordinates to the school so it would not be attacked.

Anywhere else in the world and the western hypocritical organisations such as the EU and NATO would be enforcing a no fly zone. Absolutely disgraceful.

But in fairness, this time the UN and the US have been using "sharp criticism" and strong words like "appalling".

I mean sooner or later that's got to have an effect, right?

Like I said. Absolutely disgraceful.

[7by7]

Yes, I agree...This really is shameful.

http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2014/08/01/hamas-terrorist-hangs-position-kids-on-a-fence-in-front-of-a-house-to-ensure-the-idf-will-not-strike-the-building/

That photo is shocking, but appears to be typical Hamas.

Hamas terrorist position kids on a fence in front of a house to ensure the #IDF will not strike the building

http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2014/08/01/hamas-terrorist-hangs-position-kids-on-a-fence-in-front-of-a-house-to-ensure-the-idf-will-not-strike-the-building/

From the 'About' page of that website

We are a group of human rights volunteers who aim to educated the world of the reality of the dangerous and totalitarian fascist ideology of Islam – the greatest threat to the West since the endless wars and invasions of the medieval times.......There are no excuses for supporting the brutality of Islam.

Hardly an independent, objective source; which calls into question the authenticity of that photo.

[Ulysses G.]

Very few people doubt that Hamas would do such a thing, which is also a consideration.

[Scott]

Some off-topic posts have been deleted along with replies. You can stop the discussion of zionism and of settlements. It's off-topic and further discussion will be deleted.

[7by7]

These grubs were alledgedly targeting 3 enemy combatants on a motorcycle. Is it just coincidence that they decided to engage the target in extreme close proximity to a school? The truth is, no. They don"t care.

Ok I see...Hamas can fire its rockets blindly into Israel but when Israel does we scream in outrage.

Double standards....make that triple for good measure!

Schools,mosques and hospitals,because they are perceived to be 'safe' ,are used by Hamas as storage and refuge places for its fighters.

Israel occasionally has to target them.

They know it will be a PR disaster but they have no choice.

Hamas fires rockets into Israel and are called terrorists.

Israel deliberately bombs a UN safe refuge, after repeatedly being told it is such, merely because two suspected militants are passing it on a motorcycle and you think that's legitimate!

What evidence is there that Hamas are storing weapons in UN safe refuges?

[khunken]

I don't think that was me. I am not interested in an academic discussion of Zionism. I suggest reading a book. On current events, I suggest just saying what you mean without muddying it with high concepts you clearly don't understand. For example. if you're against settlers, why not be clear and just say that? That's a concrete issue people can get their head around with falling into a black hole of competitive rhetoric.

It certainly was you and within the last few weeks too. I'll dig out the posts later. Memory slipping?

I'm not muddying anything and have an opinion, rightly or wrongly, on both Zionism and the current slaughter. It was not rhetoric to ask for your opinion on what you describe as 'right-wing Zionism'. You are just knocking others' posts without really contributing anything.

FWIW I support Israel's right to exist within borders as defined by UN resolutions and previous agreements with the Palestinians. I don't support more settlement building on land outside those borders as it's just land grabbing. The wall or fence was another grab as it wound it's way through Palestinian property often cutting people off from their livlihood. I particularly don't like Israel's treatment of the Palestinians which is Apartheid-based and it's treatment of the residents of Gaza can only be described in WWII terms which the mods don't like.

[khunken]

Some off-topic posts have been deleted along with replies. You can stop the discussion of zionism and of settlements. It's off-topic and further discussion will be deleted.

Sorry Scott I only saw your ruling after posting my latest on the subject.

[Ulysses G.]

What evidence is there that Hamas are storing weapons in UN safe refuges?

You are kidding. Right?

A United Nations group providing humanitarian relief in the Gaza Strip said they found rockets hidden by militants inside a vacant school Tuesday, adding to complaints that Hamas is hiding and launching weapons in the vicinity of civilian structures.

The U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) said the rockets were found in between two other UNRWA schools that are being used to host 1,500 displaced people.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/22/hamas-hiding-rockets-in-schools-children-playgrounds-israel-and-un-agency-say/

http://www.mrctv.org/videos/networks-condemn-attack-un-school-gaza-ignore-hamas-hiding-rockets-schools-1

[7by7]

The important words in that being VACANT and BETWEEN!

Surely with the modern weaponry at their disposal the IDF could be more accurate and hit their targets without also hitting UN safe refuges!

If they cared to, that is.

Edited August 4, 2014 by 7by7

[dexterm]

It is time to put an international force in between Israel and Gaza.

They should be the ones tasked with enforcing boundaries, finding/destroying tunnels and missile stores , investigate violations, ensuring legitimate supplies are not withheld from the Gaza residents.

Good idea, although I don't think peacekeepers/observers could manage all those tasks. But at least they could inject an element of truth into the situation, as part of a deal

It could be a start for talks on normality again.

[dexterm]

What evidence is there that Hamas are storing weapons in UN safe refuges?

You are kidding. Right?

A United Nations group providing humanitarian relief in the Gaza Strip said they found rockets hidden by militants inside a vacant school Tuesday, adding to complaints that Hamas is hiding and launching weapons in the vicinity of civilian structures.

The U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) said the rockets were found in between two other UNRWA schools that are being used to host 1,500 displaced people.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/22/hamas-hiding-rockets-in-schools-children-playgrounds-israel-and-un-agency-say/

http://www.mrctv.org/videos/networks-condemn-attack-un-school-gaza-ignore-hamas-hiding-rockets-schools-1

This is the Israeli propaganda machine at work...find one vacant school ...extrapolate from there, and any school, mosque, hospital or ambulance is a target, even though according to the international rules of war only legitimate military targets can be fired upon, and then if there is no danger of harming civilians.

But it's a handy cracked record for Mark Regev to churn out after every new atrocity

[Ulysses G.]

The important words in that being VACANT and BETWEEN!

You don't consider placing rockets between two UN Shelters, with 1,500 people taking shelter there, evidence that Hamas is perfectly happy if they get hit?

[Wat dee]

If we're talking about the poor Palestinians being killed by the Israelis right? than what about the poor

Palestinians being killed and expelled fro Syria on en mass? some will jump now up and say these

are different Palestinians, are they?

The value of a dead Palestinian rises exponentially if their death can be blamed on Israel, otherwise they are ten a penny, for example the Jordanians killed 10,000 when they expelled the PLO from Jordan.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Back on topic, how many woman and children need to be murdered in Gaza before you say enough is enough?

Any of you Israeli apologists, answer that question.

Not one Israeli apologist on here seems prepared to answer this simple question. Strange, because you seem happy to back up this genocide but reluctant to acknowledge how many innocents its ok to slaughter.

You use the term "murdered" which would imply they selected these people specifically and then killed them. That is absurd. Yes, they are casualties of war. I wish they weren't, but I cannot change that. When Hamas learns that they cannot kill all the Israelis and Jews then maybe innocent people will quit dying. Do a little reading and you will understand that Hamas will not cease firing rockets into Israeli territory until all Jews and Israelis are dead. I firmly believe that the people of Gaza would willingly live in peace next to Israel if there were no Hamas government putting their lives in danger on a daily basis.

When Palestinians can live like human beings Hamas will disappear.

[Chicog]

Unfortunately Israel seem to think that punishing thousands of civilians for the actions of a few will force them to distance themselves from Hamas.

However, these are Arab muslim tribes we are talking about. They are leaning towards the Hamas point of view more and more because they see Hamas as the only ones fighting the Israelis, and they are quite good when it comes to bearing grudges.

Which probably suits the Israeli narrative that claims they are always under attack: It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

[Ulysses G.]

However, these are Arab muslim tribes we are talking about. They are leaning towards the Hamas point of view more and more because they see Hamas as the only ones fighting the Israelis, and they are quite good when it comes to bearing grudges.

They elected Hamas and have been bearing a grudge for 66 years, since they lost the first war that they declared. Other than some protection from Palestinian rockets, because of Iron Dome, there is nothing new or different about any of this.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts deleted.

[Kalebiran]

Adjectives to describe israel please. criminal is good start. not inflammatory , it comes from the UN who rarely make judgements

[khunken]

Unfortunately Israel seem to think that punishing thousands of civilians for the actions of a few will force them to distance themselves from Hamas.

However, these are Arab muslim tribes we are talking about. They are leaning towards the Hamas point of view more and more because they see Hamas as the only ones fighting the Israelis, and they are quite good when it comes to bearing grudges.

Which probably suits the Israeli narrative that claims they are always under attack: It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

Methinks the tribal descriptor is rather outdated. Also forgotten is the small Christian community in Gaza, one of which was killed when her house was bombed by Israel. She, nor any of her family are or were members of Hamas.

Of course she may have voted for them which is enough 'justification' for Israel. The churches are open to all Gaza residents as a shelter. It's probably just a matter of time that a Hamas militant is 'spotted' within 10s of metres of a church and the church gets the same treatment as schools, mosques & hospitals.

[Jingthing]

Adjectives to describe israel please. criminal is good start. not inflammatory , it comes from the UN who rarely make judgements

The U.N. often makes "judgments" and is objectively biased against Israel. Not that some of their criticisms of israel are not justified, some are, but when you look at the NUMBER of U.N. complaints against Israel when compared to other countries in the world who deserve it even more, there is really no doubt about the bias. So when Israel doesn't value the U.N.'s opinions, you need to look at that within the context of a clear U.N. bias.

[7by7]

So, yet again, we have the old canard that anyone who criticises Israel is at best biased, and probably Judeophobic, anti Semitic and a neo Nazi as well!

[7by7]

The important words in that being VACANT and BETWEEN!

You don't consider placing rockets between two UN Shelters, with 1,500 people taking shelter there, evidence that Hamas is perfectly happy if they get hit?

So you are saying that even with the best, most modern and accurate weaponry the US can provide, the IDF are incapable of picking and hitting their targets so simply strike at anything in the vicinity?

Are the IDF that poorly trained?

[Ulysses G.]

You have obviously never been in the military. Have you ever heard of the fog of war? It is never that simple and the US army makes plenty of mistakes too. Remember the Chinese embassy in Belgrade?

Edited August 4, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Wat dee]

When you use women and children as human shields, civilians die. No more criminal than Friendly Fire. Stuff happens. Get over it. Israel has the right to defend itself against Hamas, a terrorist organization. OK, you can attack me now.

Of course. When a terrorist group shoots thousands of rockets at civilian areas in a sovereign country they are going to be stopped. Any country on earth would be doing the same thing.

You could show the actual rockets too...

[coma]

Adjectives to describe israel please. criminal is good start. not inflammatory , it comes from the UN who rarely make judgements

Paranoid Schizophrenic, obsessive compulsive, liars, fabricators of truth, violent, hostile, aggressive, arrogant, ignorant etc etc. Not inflammatory. These words describe factually present day Israeli foreign policy.