Dealing with Immigration matters in old age

[ggt]

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Re: continued extensions of stay via retirement: and there is no reason to assume that they will Conversely, there is no reason to assume they won't ...

 

Until there is something to worry about, I will let others worry about it.

OK, I get it, but you know, I am sorry, the REALITY is that expat retirees here have basically NO long term residence security here beyond ONE year. I think this is very important for people considering Thailand to consider. You can't know how that really feels until you have lived here awhile and might be heavily invested here ... with much less or even nothing to go "back home" to as the years pass. Yes, I am suggesting I would generally not suggest people retire to Thailand, even though I did, and that they would be better off if retiring abroad to highly prioritize long term residence security which Thailand will probably NEVER offer retired expats. So if long term residence security is a high priority, Thailand will be off the table. 

 

 

The above statement...should be like a pan of cold water thrown in the face of a retiree...or prospective retiree...the truth shall set you free...now evaluate your options...and choose wisely...you only grow old once...and then come back to earth as a soi dog if you pass away while living in Thailand...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

There are retirement homes and communities here in Thailand, and there have been past threads here discussing various of them.

 

At least one well-known one oriented to farangs in the Chiang Mai area, and at least a couple others that seem more focused on Thais in other areas.

 

I've never heard anything about how the customer demand for the place in Chiang Mai is faring, as in -- they have a waiting list, or they have available vacancies. It would be interesting to hear, as a gauge of the extent of demand here for similar services.

 

[Suradit69]

...understand the ever-changing requirements.

 

No requirements have changed in the past 8 years for my annual extension, so understanding them hasn't been especially challenging.

 

Sorry if this is a rather morbid subject ...

 

 

Can't see anything morbid about it. Are you distressed about getting older? Would you really want to go back to being a teenager ... or worse still, an unemployed English teacher looking for work here?

 

Que sera sera. There's a difference between making reasonable plans for the future and manufacturing things to worry about so you can't enjoy the present.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Suradit69

[visionchaser45]

I plan to die in my small house in Isaan. My wife has been living in the United States with me for just over a decade, and has just passed her interview to become a naturalized citizen. She will maintain dual citizenship (US/Thai). I plan on living in Thailand on annual extensions based on marriage. Our next trip over will involve going through the process of registering our US marriage in Thailand in preparation for the big move in four years, which is when I plan to retire.

 

I already have cancer, but the doctors are confident I will get another ten years, give or take, of life of a reasonable quality. My wife speaks English quite well and her reading and writing skill are improving daily. I am 58 years old and she is 47. She did a good job of caring for me when I was first diagnosed and on chemo. I am scheduled to undergo a bone marrow transplant in a couple of months and will require 'round the clock care for at least a couple of months. If I experience a recurrence of my illness in Thailand, I plan to let the disease run its course and to be cremated in our village.

 

I expect I will have done at least one or two annual extensions before becoming too disabled to do it independently. At that point, my wife should be familiar enough with the procedure and paperwork to assist me with the details. As far as being there in person, the family can put me in the back of the pickup and roll (wheelchair)  or carry (stretcher) me into the Nakhon Phanom immigration office. My stepchildren (two daughters and one son) and other relatives will be available to assist with my daily care.

 

If, for any reason, I must return to the States on short notice, my wife can travel with me on her US passport. I won't have property here, but I have family to provide temporary lodging and assistance.

 

All-in-all, I think all will be well. The future, however, is not predictable, being in God's hands alone. We did our best, however, to leave room in our plans to account for various contingencies. After three years of continuous annual extensions, I may even look into applying for permanent residency.

 

I guess my advice is to plan ahead as much as you can and just trust God that it will all work for good in the end. Choke dii, na.

[paz]

After three years of continuous annual extensions, I may even look into applying for permanent residency.

Sorry to hear about your condition and best of luck.
Too bad you cannot apply for PR, one needs to be working for that.

[cchina184]

life happens

then you die

what, me worry?

[cheeryble]

To be less theoretical….

 

If you become less mobile and say can't make it to the immigration (or don't fancy it), what can be done?

Does one have to show up in person, or can someone do it for you, or will they send someone over to inspect you?

 

My personal experience is the Thais are pretty compassionate and helpful with those in trouble as with big medical problems.

I've seen hospitals be very accommodating.

The nephew of a friend started working at the Ram (early 20s) on the computer side.

Only six weeks later he rode his motorbike into the side of a pickup and was in ICU for many weeks then couldn't speak etc etc.

The fact is the Ram looked after him first class up to the hilt with never a word or tiny demand.

(He got mostly better but became a monk to suit his slightly slower abilities)

 

Same with a long-time American resident here who used to be a voluntary translator at Maharat.

He got cancer in the jaw.

He told me Maharat looked after him, chemo, operations, with wonderful care and no restrictions. No fees.

Sadly he got a recurrence and is no longer with us.

 

Anyway be interested to hear answers to my question above

[Wat dee]

 

then again there are the retirement /nursing homes back home where you have all the security of a canary in a cage or a 5 year old,this is how they treat you-i kid you not-(i had the experience once) for a mere let's say 100 000 to 200 000 bt a month.i figure the wife or myself can hire plenty of staff for that kind of dough  and i have a dignified self determined life on the way out.and if i can't make it to immigration then i will just not go there.

100,000 to 200,000 baht a month!!!!  Just how long do you expect to live......that's 1,200,000 - 2,400,000 baht a year!!!!  Are you a millionaire/billionaire.....or did you just mistakenly add a zero to your figures without realizing it?  Or maybe you were just seeing whose leg you could pull?

 

Hes(Tingtau) is absolutely right. I know several retirement homes like that.

[Wat dee]

 

 

then again there are the retirement /nursing homes back home where you have all the security of a canary in a cage or a 5 year old,this is how they treat you-i kid you not-(i had the experience once) for a mere let's say 100 000 to 200 000 bt a month.i figure the wife or myself can hire plenty of staff for that kind of dough  and i have a dignified self determined life on the way out.and if i can't make it to immigration then i will just not go there.

100,000 to 200,000 baht a month!!!!  Just how long do you expect to live......that's 1,200,000 - 2,400,000 baht a year!!!!  Are you a millionaire/billionaire.....or did you just mistakenly add a zero to your figures without realizing it?  Or maybe you were just seeing whose leg you could pull?

 

Hes(Tingtau) is absolutely right. I know several retirement homes like that.

 

Meant uptoyoumyfriend!

[KhnomKhnom]

The bigger worry would be that after living here for 25 of 30 years and being on a fixed pension that with a stroke of a pen you would need 1.5 or 2 million baht in a bank to stay on a retirement or marriage visa, please don't start with if you don't have enough money you should not be here, i'm talking when you are 70 plus and your home is Thailand.

 

I don't understand......... how did that person stay here before retirement?  WP?

P.S. you nor none of us foreigners LIVE HERE.  We are not permanent residents, very few are;  we are guest workers or just documented aliens.  Don't forget it. 

Why in the world do people come to believe that just by sleeping in same place for years ENTITLES them to special treatment by the Thai govt.???

[KhnomKhnom]

After living here for ten years I am starting to share the OPs concerns. Not only with immigration but in general things look pretty bleak for old people who are often just locked up and tolerated rather than really cared for.

 

Traditionally in Thailand young people felt it was their unquestionable duty to care for their aged relatives but this is changing fast. At least in some western countries this change has already led to commercial ventures supported by government to provide professional care.

 

Here there is next to nothing unless you are terminally ill (and you have money).

 

Is it wrong for me to say compassion is not big in this part of the world?

Yes, it is wrong for you to say that.  This is one of the most compassionate places on Earth.  That may not be enough for you who thinks he has ENTITLEMENT.  Thai expect a person to look ahead if he has no automatic old person care lined up and get it.  Wife's Thai papa lay bed ridden for 2+ yrs and everyone from Momma to daughters to young children helped with him....... baths, wiping, whatever needed.  This is the Thai way among real Thai with little money and big hearts.

 

If a guy is an old man living alone, he is in a world of hurt here.  If that is the prospect coming, get out to your native land where govt care likely kicks in for you.  For most, Thailand is NOT for you.

[Gonsalviz]

Some people (unmarried retirees) are likely to have this problem. I don't worry so much. Been here in BFE Isan for 6 years and noone wonders anything about my immigration status. I plan to stay legal as long as I can and then I will stop worrying about that.

Let immigration come and deport me. I doubt they can.

[KhnomKhnom]

90day can be renewed by anyone with your signed paper.  If you can no longer handle a pen, you shudda made a rubber stamp of your signature years ago.  One yr renewals likely need a relative of yours to talk for a renewal with you not physically present. 

Bumrungrad Hospital can not be the only care-place that has immigration staff to help.

 

Point is, prepare now for a time when many of us will be too weak or out of it to do the paper ourselves.  It is not impossible to make your senility plans now and have them to work later. 

 

Stop thinking Thailand owes you health and so on during senility;  it does not and why should it?  It is working right now to move out visitors who have not arranged for means to stay here.  These are facts and are the complete right of the nation to decide these policies.  No one owes you anything !

[visionchaser45]

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After three years of continuous annual extensions, I may even look into applying for permanent residency.

Sorry to hear about your condition and best of luck.
Too bad you cannot apply for PR, one needs to be working for that.

 

 

I expect to be pretty healthy for at least the first few years and plan to give weekly English classes to the kids and adults in our village, which I believe requires a work permit. The income from this venture will be quite low because I only plan to charge ฿60 for each 2-hour class (estimated monthly income ฿800), but will this satisfy the "employment" requirement for PR?

[ParadiseLost]

 

After living here for ten years I am starting to share the OPs concerns. Not only with immigration but in general things look pretty bleak for old people who are often just locked up and tolerated rather than really cared for.

 

Traditionally in Thailand young people felt it was their unquestionable duty to care for their aged relatives but this is changing fast. At least in some western countries this change has already led to commercial ventures supported by government to provide professional care.

 

Here there is next to nothing unless you are terminally ill (and you have money).

 

Is it wrong for me to say compassion is not big in this part of the world?

Yes, it is wrong for you to say that.  This is one of the most compassionate places on Earth.  That may not be enough for you who thinks he has ENTITLEMENT.  Thai expect a person to look ahead if he has no automatic old person care lined up and get it.  Wife's Thai papa lay bed ridden for 2+ yrs and everyone from Momma to daughters to young children helped with him....... baths, wiping, whatever needed.  This is the Thai way among real Thai with little money and big hearts.

 

If a guy is an old man living alone, he is in a world of hurt here.  If that is the prospect coming, get out to your native land where govt care likely kicks in for you.  For most, Thailand is NOT for you.

 

I don't know where you pulled the ENTITLEMENT comment out of but you could not be further from the truth... I was not slagging anyone off so you are way out of line.

 

The scene you describe where the entire family undertakes the care of the aged is exactly what I was referring to - this is the traditional way, which sadly is not the rule anymore.

 

Tell me, just how much care would you expect from total strangers here? There is a definite lack of compassion towards their fellow man - unless they are related or somehow obliged.

 

How compassionate do you expect an immigration officer to be when you are senile?

 

And again you are reaching when you presume to know other peoples circumstances - I am married but do not believe anything is permanent: If your wife dies, you lose your visa - no matter what your circumstances. And just by the way my home country has no govt care...

 

I am being a realist, not attacking anyone. Perhaps you should show the same maturity in your replies?

[NanLaew]

OK, I get it, but you know, I am sorry, the REALITY is that expat retirees here have basically NO long term residence security here beyond ONE year. I think this is very important for people considering Thailand to consider. You can't know how that really feels until you have lived here awhile and might be heavily invested here ... with much less or even nothing to go "back home" to as the years pass. Yes, I am suggesting I would generally not suggest people retire to Thailand, even though I did, and that they would be better off if retiring abroad to highly prioritize long term residence security which Thailand will probably NEVER offer retired expats. So if long term residence security is a high priority, Thailand will be off the table.

 I agree that those pondering retirement in any tropical paradise do need to pay more attention to whatever 'long game' the country of choice has for retired foreigners. Thailand, unlike Malaysia has never, ever officially had that demographic on their radar. I am not getting into any debate that Malaysia is better than Thailand, just stating the obvious fact. I am pretty sure that Thailand and in particular Chiang Mai's popularity in the retirement haven stakes is driven purely by commercial interests. The media that specifically promotes Thailand as a country of idyllic gated communities with most of the amenities a westerner would expect, is primarily funded by property developers. I don't recall any of them ever having a history of caring what happens to their customers once the final payment is made and the keys handed over.

But this is not a Thailand bash. I would wager that many countries with relatively new-found wealth based (mostly) on foreign-funded manufacturing industries that in turn creates a growing middle class (with liquidity) of their own, do not want to be seen as a retirement home for older foreigners that haven't contributed much of anything to the coffers beyond the 5-20 million baht condo or home purchase. I don't consider the money spent daily by pensioners and retirees on the basic staples and creature comforts as being anything meaningful to our hosts in the terms of real investments in Thailand. It is less than insignificant.

For many who have already invested here, it may be too late to change horses.
 

With the young taking care of the old in stead of simply putting the old in a retirement home and paying them a visit once a month I would say there is much more compassion and respect here than back home.

 That is a good point but doesn't it really only apply to those who have a family here, be it married or common law? My wife has always assured me that I will be cared for in my dotage and she even suggested that my late mother would be better cared for if she came to Thailand as she as family, could take better care than the state or any private services in the UK.

But what about the single retiree with increasing disabilities, a decreasing pension and no longer eligible for insurance? Without the safety net of family-based support in Thailand, their situation must be totally precarious. I think there's an equal chance of a solitary pensioner lying dead in their house in Brighton for 5 years as the self-medicating guy doing a balcony dive from a condo in Pattaya. When there's no family left, the choices are grim regardless of where one hangs one's hat or how nice the weather is.

[Liquorice]

In reply to the OP.

 

If you cannot attend Immigration because of failing health, a nominated person can do the extension for you, but you would require a letter from a Doctor explaining your illness and the reason you cannot attend personally. Immigration are humans.

Any nominated person can do the 90 day report without a Doctors letter, or it can be completed by post.

 

If you have concerns for the future, it's better to start training a family member or friend of the procedures to follow now.

[cheeryble]

Thankyou Faz


Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

[NancyL]

In reply to the OP.
 
If you cannot attend Immigration because of failing health, a nominated person can do the extension for you, but you would require a letter from a Doctor explaining your illness and the reason you cannot attend personally. Immigration are humans.
Any nominated person can do the 90 day report without a Doctors letter, or it can be completed by post.
 
If you have concerns for the future, it's better to start training a family member or friend of the procedures to follow now.

This, in short, is the answer to the OP's query. Here in Chiang Mai, where there are many elderly foreign retirees, thee are several excellent and reputable visa agents who will take care of visa maintenance details for a reasonable fee. Dealing with immigration should be a minor concern for someone who is frail and elderly, but it is something that should be planned in advance and it is not something a frail elderly person should try to continue to do on their own, especially at Chiang Mai immigration which has got to be the most crowded office in the Kingdom.

As for what happens once someone is in a care home -- the care home should be prepared to offer visa maintenance as a service for their residents. Dok Kaew, an assisted living facility in Chiang Mai does. Edited August 6, 2014 by NancyL

[jpinx]

 

OK JT -- I am now 10 years in Thailand 7 on extension via retirement and I am deliberately not heavily invested here. One year's security at a time doesn't bother me as much as it seems to bother others.

Good point. I AM heavily invested here so DO feel the vulnerability more. A middle way tactic would be what you are doing and of course trying to keep the bridges good for an escape plan. 

 

 

JT - in your position I'd be seriously considering unravelling your situation to something less prone to the volatility.

[harrry]

 

In reply to the OP.
 
If you cannot attend Immigration because of failing health, a nominated person can do the extension for you, but you would require a letter from a Doctor explaining your illness and the reason you cannot attend personally. Immigration are humans.
Any nominated person can do the 90 day report without a Doctors letter, or it can be completed by post.
 
If you have concerns for the future, it's better to start training a family member or friend of the procedures to follow now.

This, in short, is the answer to the OP's query. Here in Chiang Mai, where there are many elderly foreign retirees, thee are several excellent and reputable visa agents who will take care of visa maintenance details for a reasonable fee. Dealing with immigration should be a minor concern for someone who is frail and elderly, but it is something that should be planned in advance and it is not something a frail elderly person should try to continue to do on their own, especially at Chiang Mai immigration which has got to be the most crowded office in the Kingdom.

As for what happens once someone is in a care home -- the care home should be prepared to offer visa maintenance as a service for their residents. Dok Kaew, an assisted living facility in Chiang Mai does.

 

And what NancyL do you consider a reasonable fee. $800 US a year? What else in THailand costs that for one day of work (if that).

[NancyL]

Harrry, the fees I've heard quoted are more like 6000 baht per year for the visa agent's time plus the fees at Immigration, of course. If a visa agent is quoting a fee in excess of 25,000 baht, then there's something fishy going on. That sounds like the sort of fee those "get a retirement visa with no money in the bank, no income" visa agents advertise. Those aren't reputable visa agents.

[gigman]

Agree.
Better to stay in your homecountry and just travel to Thailand every year,
once your too old, frail and senile to travel and enjoy life anymore
you can still benefit from your home country's social security system.
 
Plahgat

Totally agree.
Everywhere they just expect to suck out our money and savings for exchange of unknown future.
Better to be a just seasonal tourist.

[Liquorice]

In most areas their are other farangs. I would like to think that some are kind hearted and considered friends, who would rally together in times of need to help each other out. A visit to Immigration on behalf of someone else, especially if you have to go yourself is no big deal.

 

In Roi Et there is a Thai lady, who will collect your documents and visit Amnat Immigration on your behalf for 2,000bt.

She is well versed on the documents required and speaks understandable English.

I'm sure similar Thai's will offer the same service in many locations.

 

 

[Liquorice]

gigman, on 06 Aug 2014 - 09:18, said:

 

plahgat, on 05 Aug 2014 - 16:34, said:

Agree.
Better to stay in your homecountry and just travel to Thailand every year,
once your too old, frail and senile to travel and enjoy life anymore
you can still benefit from your home country's social security system.
 
Plahgat

Totally agree.
Everywhere they just expect to suck out our money and savings for exchange of unknown future.
Better to be a just seasonal tourist.

 

 

@playgat.

Please explain, if your too old, frail and senile to travel and enjoy life anymore, just how do you travel to Thailand every year?

@gigman.

In the UK your pension, savings and home would be sucked out for an unknown future.

You wouldn't have any funds left to tour anywhere.

[natway09]

Who says joking.

Do not take life too seriously.... You will never get out of it alive.

I'll take my chances on getting my retirement visa renewed until I am at the front of the queue.

[MikeN]

 

phuketrichard, on 05 Aug 2014 - 17:09, said:

hmmm

i see a business opp

 

open an old age home with a resident lawyer and physician in attendance

one to deal with immigration/legal wills/changing poicies

the other to pull the plug ( morphine drip) when the time comes

 

You joke but this is a huge growth market, worldwide.

 

Don't forget, the baby boomer OAPs are the richest generation ever...

 

 

 

whose joking!!!

 

 think it would be a great business

About 17 years ago the Japanese were looking at buying up  a big plot of land in Patong ( on the road heading up to the hill that goes over to Karon beach that was Patongs second hospital that failed ) an doing an old age home but than the economy collapsed,

 

I think doing it out near the airport would be perfect

 

Is n't there one out near pattaya ? Some time ago I saw girls in the mall handing out leaflets to farang for a "Seniors resort" out that way ...I remember the photos showed a lot of good looking female employees to look after the residents !

[laolover88]

Try this http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/old-vicarage-the-grantchester/
Particularly the lines about growing old!!!

For chri++++++akes we are old old old old old and on the one way train

[Liquorice]

laolover88, on 06 Aug 2014 - 12:35, said:

Try this http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/old-vicarage-the-grantchester/
Particularly the lines about growing old!!!

For chri++++++akes we are old old old old old and on the one way train

Try this poem from a patients point of view.

 

Cranky Old Man 

 

What do you see nurses? . . .. . .What do you see?

What are you thinking .. . when you're looking at me?

A cranky old man, . . . . . .not very wise,

Uncertain of habit .. . . . . . . .. with faraway eyes?

Who dribbles his food .. . ... . . and makes no reply.

When you say in a loud voice . .'I do wish you'd try!'

Who seems not to notice . . .the things that you do.

And forever is losing . . . . . .. . . A sock or shoe?

Who, resisting or not . . . ... lets you do as you will,

With bathing and feeding . . . .The long day to fill?

Is that what you're thinking?. .Is that what you see?

Then open your eyes, nurse .you're not looking at me.

I'll tell you who I am . . . . .. As I sit here so still,

As I do at your bidding, .. . . . as I eat at your will

.I'm a small child of Ten . .with a father and mother,

Brothers and sisters .. . . .. . who love one another

A young boy of Sixteen . . . .. with wings on his feet

Dreaming that soon now . . .. . . a lover he'll meet.

A groom soon at Twenty . . . ..my heart gives a leap.

Remembering, the vows .. .. .that I promised to keep.

At Twenty-Five, now . . . . .I have young of my own.

Who need me to guide . . . And a secure happy home.

A man of Thirty . .. . . . . My young now grown fast,

Bound to each other . . .. With ties that should last.

At Forty, my young sons .. .have grown and are gone,

But my woman is beside me . . to see I don't mourn.

At Fifty, once more, .. ...Babies play 'round my knee,

Again, we know children . . . . My loved one and me.

Dark days are upon me . . . . My wife is now dead.

I look at the future ... . . . . I shudder with dread.

For my young are all rearing .. . . young of their own.

And I think of the years . . . And the love that I've known.

I'm now an old man . . . . . . .. and nature is cruel.

It's jest to make old age . . . . . . . look like a fool.

The body, it crumbles .. .. . grace and vigour, depart.

There is now a stone . . . where I once had a heart.

But inside this old carcass . A young man still dwells,

And now and again . . . . . my battered heart swells

I remember the joys . . . . .. . I remember the pain.

And I'm loving and living . . . . . . . life over again.

I think of the years, all too few . . .. gone too fast.

And accept the stark fact . . . that nothing can last.

So open your eyes, people .. . . . .. . . open and see.

Not a cranky old man .Look closer . . . . see .. .. . .. .... . ME!!

[uptoyoumyfriend]

 

then again there are the retirement /nursing homes back home where you have all the security of a canary in a cage or a 5 year old,this is how they treat you-i kid you not-(i had the experience once) for a mere let's say 100 000 to 200 000 bt a month.i figure the wife or myself can hire plenty of staff for that kind of dough  and i have a dignified self determined life on the way out.and if i can't make it to immigration then i will just not go there.

100,000 to 200,000 baht a month!!!!  Just how long do you expect to live......that's 1,200,000 - 2,400,000 baht a year!!!!  Are you a millionaire/billionaire.....or did you just mistakenly add a zero to your figures without realizing it?  Or maybe you were just seeing whose leg you could pull?

 

i was talking about the cost  of a nursing home back in the usa ,i put it in thai bt for relevance