Is knowing 5000 words considered as advance level?

[DA3NDORPHIN3]

5000 words with knowing proper tones and pronunciation of course.Just wondering how much words is enough to be able to have a decent conversation about any subject.

Would like to hear opinions from people who have decent vocabulary

[edwardandtubs]

5000 is intermediate level in most languages. With that you should be able to have a reasonable conversation about non-specialist topics.

[Thaiberius]

The Thai language has no way near the vocabulary as- for example - English or Spanish. The OP mentions tones and that is where farangs always trip up. Thai's will make allowances for our lack of melodic tones. From an English perspective try and understand what your local Indian in a corner shop or driving a taxi is saying. We make allowances without even thinking about it, so do the Thai's.

[cooked]

The Thai language has no way near the vocabulary as- for example - English or Spanish. The OP mentions tones and that is where farangs always trip up. Thai's will make allowances for our lack of melodic tones. From an English perspective try and understand what your local Indian in a corner shop or driving a taxi is saying. We make allowances without even thinking about it, so do the Thai's.

Nice comment, I remember trying to buy butter from an Indian in south UK many years ago. After a few tries he corrected my pronunciation. (I'm from the North).

[Aforek]

" 5000 words with knowing proper tones and pronunciation of course "

if you can do that ( correct tones for 5000 words, meaning knowing by heart which tone to use for every syllabe, you are very good, better than me ...); as said above, Thais make allowance: good for me , normally they understand me about 80% , my GF 100%

[rak sa_ngop]

Doesn't it depend on what you mean by knowing words?

I can read Thai books and recognise probably more than 5,000Thai words but when it comes to speaking from memory I just can't find the words anymore.

[thaichalina]

Vocabulary of 5000 words would put you in high intermediate-low advance level.

In my opinion,thai language is 2x harder to learn than EU/ENG language just because of the tones and it's probably one of the most difficult languages in the world to learn.It takes a lot of dedication and effort to learn meaning/pronunciation/long-short vowel/tone for each word and that is something that most of foreigners fail at,including me.

Honestly,after learning thai for several years(and still very much struggling),learning spanish/italian/german/french feels like a piece of cake.(been learning italian for 4months)

[Aforek]

I think that difficulties are not the same depending on the language: is Thai more difficult than european languages ? The challenge is not at the same place: in Thai, of course, tones and length of voyelles are very hard for us , farangs, and a very good ear and memory are needed: but for the rest, I don't think it's the most difficult language

I am French, and for us French, German is a difficult language because of grammar, declinaisons , feminine, masculine and neutral words : unluckily, if I remember from the school, masculine words in French are not masculine in German, same for feminine words , it means we must learn completely the genders again, as a new language

as I told already, basic English is much easier, but being a good English speaker or reader is much more difficult that it seems at the beginning, because of the many "anglicismes" : you see, every language has it's own difficulties, not at the same place

but if the OP can speak good thai with 5000 words, it's very good already, you can have many conversations in thai language

[tgeezer]

5000 words seems like a hell of a lot, how many words do you know in English? If knowing a Thai word means knowing an English equivalent word, try restricting your English to only those words that you know a Thai word for and you will know how fluent you are.

[GLOPglopMAmaTONG]

I am wondering the same thing.

What I am doing is to add up all the words I do not know in one American Novel which has been translated by an excellent translator into the Thai Language.

In my case, although I am still at the very elementary stage, I have a glossary of about 500 new words after getting to page 25 of the novel (translated in Thai)

So, I should know in about 2 more months how many more words I would need to know in order to read this single book, which is about 150 pages long in English.

My Thai vocabulary is approximately 1500 words at present, before I started reading this book. And, I think by the time I get to page 50 I should begin to know if the rate of new words I see on each new page begins to drop, which I think it must.

This way, it is easy for me to answer the question in terms of whether 5000 words would be enough to say you were at an advanced level.

If you want a more science based approach, then you need to obtain a word list from one of the standardized tests being given by the government to evaluate ones Thai Language proficiency.

When you say "advanced" level, I assume that this would be LEVEL 6 on that test. (although, I am not an expert on testing Thai)

Just go through the vocabulary and see what percentage you know, and then you will know if you are at the advanced level.

Also, there are tests given to Thai college students to evaluate their vocabulary in Thai.

They are considered to be advanced if they are 4th year students at university, and so you could evaluate yourself in relation to the number of words they know.

There are some good thoughts on Wikipedia regarding just this subject. For one, it is important for students to read if they wish to add up vocabulary faster.

Also, regarding non-native speakers and vocabulary, you can take a look at this excerpt:

Native-language vocabulary size[edit]

Native speakers' vocabularies vary widely within a language, and are especially dependent on the level of the speaker's education. A 1995 study shows that junior-high students would be able to recognize the meanings of about 10,000–12,000 words, whereas for college students this number grows up to about 12,000–17,000 and for elderly adults up to about 17,000 or more.^[10]

Foreign-language vocabulary[edit] The effects of vocabulary size on language comprehension[edit]

The knowledge of the words deriving from the 3000 most frequent English word families and the 5000 most frequent words provides a comprehension of 95% of word use,^[11] and knowledge of 5000 word families is necessary for 99.9% word coverage.^{[citation needed]}

Second language vocabulary acquisition[edit]

Learning vocabulary is one of the first steps in learning a second language, but a learner never finishes vocabulary acquisition. Whether in one's native language or a second language, the acquisition of new vocabulary is an ongoing process. There are many techniques which help one acquire new vocabulary.

Memorization[edit]

Although memorization can be seen as tedious or boring, associating one word in the native language with the corresponding word in the second language until memorized is considered one of the best methods of vocabulary acquisition. By the time students reach adulthood, they generally have gathered a number of personalized memorization methods. Although many argue that memorization does not typically require the complex cognitive processing that increases retention (Sagarra & Alba, 2006),^[12] it does typically require a large amount of repetition, and spaced repetition with flashcards is an established method for memorization, particularly used for vocabulary acquisition in computer-assisted language learning. Other methods typically require more time and longer to recall.

[GLOPglopMAmaTONG]

I found an interesting academic article (two actually) which discuss the vocabulary levels mastered by students and non students, and different sectors of the population.

Also, this discusses strategies for learning vocabulary as a student of an L2.

The strategy is to try to learn 2000 words initially, and then fill in with words from the field you are studying, or the business you are pursuing, say factories that make auto parts for example.

Both are available PDF for free:

http://www.sti.chula.ac.th/files/conference%20file/doc/paul%20nation.pdf

http://nflrc.hawaii.edu/rfl/PastIssues/rfl122ward.pdf

The first, obviously, is from Chula, a uni in BKK.

[GLOPglopMAmaTONG]

5000 words seems like a hell of a lot, how many words do you know in English? If knowing a Thai word means knowing an English equivalent word, try restricting your English to only those words that you know a Thai word for and you will know how fluent you are.

As I mentioned in several comments here, a Thai college student will know, on average, 17 thousand words.

Also, I know about one thousand five hundred Thai words.

And, my experiment to read a college level American Novel, but the Thai Translation of the novel, not the English, has already demonstrated that after 25 pages I did not know 800 words, which is what I have typed in to my glossary spreadsheet.

I am guessing, but I think there must be about Four Thousand Eight Hundred Thai words in this one book that I do not yet know. That is a lot.

However, there are many words that mean the same thing. For example DuTaWa = DuMuen = "It Seems Like", So, if you only knew DuTaWa, you could express the utterance using that word and not need to know DuMuen. There are actually not THAT many words which are ONLY used in writing, since the majority of the words in this book are used in speaking. The novel was written in 1910, I think.

[GotR1GHT]

The knowledge of the words deriving from the 3000 most frequent English word families and the 5000 most frequent words provides a comprehension of 95% of word use,^[11] and knowledge of 5000 word families is necessary for 99.9% word coverage.^{[citation needed]}

This is so true.I'll quote something that i've found on google which is very interesting

"There is a certain point of diminishing returns when you learn a language. When you know 18,000 words, learning 2000 more words is not a great leap as it was when you went from 0 to 2000 words, even though the difficulty is about the same. That's how some polyglots learn: you can do a lot with 2000 words, and instead of learning 20,000 words of one language, you can learn 2000 words of ten languages, or 5000 words of four languages. "

As for me,i have vocab of a bit less than 2500 words(i write down every word in my notebook).I can watch movies/news/talk shows and understand about 70-80%.No doubt that with 5000+ words i would understand majority of what is spoken.Of course speaking and listening/understand isn't the same but nonetheless 5000 words(with proper tones) would take you very far

[GLOPglopMAmaTONG]

The knowledge of the words deriving from the 3000 most frequent English word families and the 5000 most frequent words provides a comprehension of 95% of word use,^[11] and knowledge of 5000 word families is necessary for 99.9% word coverage.^{[citation needed]}

This is so true.I'll quote something that i've found on google which is very interesting

"There is a certain point of diminishing returns when you learn a language. When you know 18,000 words, learning 2000 more words is not a great leap as it was when you went from 0 to 2000 words, even though the difficulty is about the same. That's how some polyglots learn: you can do a lot with 2000 words, and instead of learning 20,000 words of one language, you can learn 2000 words of ten languages, or 5000 words of four languages. "

As for me,i have vocab of a bit less than 2500 words(i write down every word in my notebook).I can watch movies/news/talk shows and understand about 70-80%.No doubt that with 5000+ words i would understand majority of what is spoken.Of course speaking and listening/understand isn't the same but nonetheless 5000 words(with proper tones) would take you very far

2500 words is a lot, and the vocabulary, as you say, is different, ie you need to generate the words for speaking, but only recognize the words for listening, which is much easier.

I am fairly lazy, I think, and I think I could have done better. But, maybe not, and I might be going as fast as my memory will actually allow me to build up vocabulary. I will need 4 years to get to 5000 words vocabulary, probably.

[DavidHouston]

Glop,

Please help us understand how understanding sentence structure and methods of expression in a target language participate in developing fluency. Is the number of vocabulary words mastered the sole measure of fluency?

[GLOPglopMAmaTONG]

Glop,

Please help us understand how understanding sentence structure and methods of expression in a target language participate in developing fluency. Is the number of vocabulary words mastered the sole measure of fluency?

There is a paper I have seen and read, but cannot now find, which discusses the language related aptitudes of L2 learners.

They try to identify which qualities can predict speed of acquisition of the L2 language.

Two metrics they acknowledge are memory, and the intelligence to be able to understand grammatical rules.

So, they are saying it is not just a matter of parroting what is heard, but actively analysing the sentence grammar while speaking. The paper is easy enough to find with Google search.

They also state that the learners who have larger L1 vocabularies are more successful with learning L2, and that L1 vocabulary can be a predictor of success with L2. This seems obvious enough, but that is what the article stated.

Also, there have not been too many studies I can find predicting the influence of age (over 20, meaning 25, 45, 65 years old) on L2 language acquisition. However, as stated in the Wiki article, the older group of people evaluated had vocabularies of about 17 thousand words. And we also know that the language learning skills in the native language does not diminish that much with age, the one thing that does not, apparently, since almost everything else is quickly going down hill.

5000 words is a lot! for a non-native speaker, and requires much dedication.

[GLOPglopMAmaTONG]

Most people learn an L2 language at this level, the advance level, in order to do research in the academic field of their choice. So then there is probably many additional terminology particular to their field of study which must be learned. And this is true of the native language speakers in this field, as well, since many learn the jargon of their field in the classroom.

[Aforek]

As for me,i have vocab of a bit less than 2500 words(i write down every word in my notebook).I can watch movies/news/talk shows and understand about 70-80%.No doubt that with 5000+ words i would understand majority of what is spoken.Of course speaking and listening/understand isn't the same but nonetheless 5000 words(with proper tones) would take you very far

How can you know how many words you know in a language ?; Writing down every word you know and understanding 70-80% of what is said in movies is very good already, better than me : now I look TV ( television, not thaivisa ), I have some vocabulary ( how many words, I don't know ) , but they speak a little bit too fast for me ; I must train, but in every day life I can have good conversation with people , who understand me most of the time

[GLOPglopMAmaTONG]

As for me,i have vocab of a bit less than 2500 words(i write down every word in my notebook).I can watch movies/news/talk shows and understand about 70-80%.No doubt that with 5000+ words i would understand majority of what is spoken.Of course speaking and listening/understand isn't the same but nonetheless 5000 words(with proper tones) would take you very far

How can you know how many words you know in a language ?; Writing down every word you know and understanding 70-80% of what is said in movies is very good already, better than me : now I look TV ( television, not thaivisa ), I have some vocabulary ( how many words, I don't know ) , but they speak a little bit too fast for me ; I must train, but in every day life I can have good conversation with people , who understand me most of the time

One way to measure vocabulary known by test subjects is to present them with a sampling of the entire lexicon, and then to test what percentage is known by each, and then to extrapolate back from that. But, you are correct that there are different vocabularies according to what areas one is measuring, such as science, versus literature, since none of the more esoteric science terms will ever be needed by most readers of the classics.

Probably we should ask a linguist, or two. For example isomer, and right handedness. This is an easy concept but there are a lot that are difficult.

[GotR1GHT]

As for me,i have vocab of a bit less than 2500 words(i write down every word in my notebook).I can watch movies/news/talk shows and understand about 70-80%.No doubt that with 5000+ words i would understand majority of what is spoken.Of course speaking and listening/understand isn't the same but nonetheless 5000 words(with proper tones) would take you very far

How can you know how many words you know in a language ?; Writing down every word you know and understanding 70-80% of what is said in movies is very good already, better than me : now I look TV ( television, not thaivisa ), I have some vocabulary ( how many words, I don't know ) , but they speak a little bit too fast for me ; I must train, but in every day life I can have good conversation with people , who understand me most of the time

When i started learning i've downloaded pdf. file called 5000 most frequent words(i think it's Chulalongkorn Uni. study,you can find it on google) and i used thai-language.com to translate words and which tone it is used.Sometimes when i read thai e-book i also write down word that i don't understand.

I try to learn 20 words a day and then repeat it every day and through the day.Every day i learn new words and repeat previous ones.It takes time to be able to remember all words though.But after learning tone rules and practicing it by reading thai had become so easier

[SlyAnimal]

5000 words would be a massive amount. Particularly if you could recall them all, as opposed to just recognising them.

With 5000+ words, you could likely study at a Thai university, in Thai, provided that you were willing to do a lot of extra work learning the new subject specific vocab associated with your field of study.

You should also definitely be able to read the newspaper, or understand almost everything on TV, provided that you've learnt the more formal language. What you didn't understand, you could probably work out based on context etc, since you'd understand the majority of words surrounding it. You would also likely be able to express yourself well on any topic, although of course people might use some words which you're unfamiliar with.

[CaptHaddock]

5000 words is a good start, but doesn't get you to fluency. I have memorized over 9000 words and expressions via my flashcard program although I have certainly forgotten some of them until they pop up next time for another rehearsal. But even 9000 words is not nearly enough. Every newspaper article I read has more than one word that I have to look up or ask my teacher. By comparison I probably know 20,000 words in my native English along with etymologies for many of them. I consider myself at an intermediate level in Thai.

It seems to me that most of the foreign learners of Thai limit themselves severely by setting their sights too low, which in my opinion, is anything less than fluency. I want to be able to use and understand Thai language every bit as well as English. I expect to achieve that goal, but even if I don't get that far, just aiming high will result in a higher level of achievement than I would otherwise have reached. Language study is a very fair enterprise: the more you put in, the more you get out.

By the way, if you are trying to build your vocabulary without using a flashcard program that offers "spaced repetition" you are missing out on a major advantage of language learning in the computer age. After trying several such programs, I have been using Anki for several years now. Basically, language learners forget new words at predictable rates which Anki can use to reschedule the next rehearsal thereby improving retention. Responding to an English prompt with the corresponding Thai word is called "cold recall" since it is without the cues that occur in context. It's the toughest memory task. Recognition of words in the context of reading is easier, but cold recall is what we rely on when we want to introduce a new topic into the conversation, for instance.

Learning Thai is harder for a native English speaker than learning another European language for sure, but it is a lot easier than Chinese or Japanese because of the alphabet (actually an abugida.) But the tones are only a problem initially. After 2.5 years here in BKK I can produce the tones and recognize them pretty much without difficulty although I am still improving and still make mistakes. The key to getting the tones right is having a professional teacher correct you whenever you mispronounce them, which is, basically, all the time. The average Thai person in conversation will not do this, including my wife who, although bilingual, is not a language teacher. And you are simply fooling yourself if you think you can correct your own tones. You need competent feedback. I was lucky to find good teachers who correct me constantly. Tones, just by the way, are also a great deal of fun.

[thaichalina]

5000 words is a good start, but doesn't get you to fluency. I have memorized over 9000 words and expressions via my flashcard program although I have certainly forgotten some of them until they pop up next time for another rehearsal. But even 9000 words is not nearly enough. Every newspaper article I read has more than one word that I have to look up or ask my teacher. By comparison I probably know 20,000 words in my native English along with etymologies for many of them. I consider myself at an intermediate level in Thai.

It seems to me that most of the foreign learners of Thai limit themselves severely by setting their sights too low, which in my opinion, is anything less than fluency. I want to be able to use and understand Thai language every bit as well as English. I expect to achieve that goal, but even if I don't get that far, just aiming high will result in a higher level of achievement than I would otherwise have reached. Language study is a very fair enterprise: the more you put in, the more you get out.

By the way, if you are trying to build your vocabulary without using a flashcard program that offers "spaced repetition" you are missing out on a major advantage of language learning in the computer age. After trying several such programs, I have been using Anki for several years now. Basically, language learners forget new words at predictable rates which Anki can use to reschedule the next rehearsal thereby improving retention. Responding to an English prompt with the corresponding Thai word is called "cold recall" since it is without the cues that occur in context. It's the toughest memory task. Recognition of words in the context of reading is easier, but cold recall is what we rely on when we want to introduce a new topic into the conversation, for instance.

Learning Thai is harder for a native English speaker than learning another European language for sure, but it is a lot easier than Chinese or Japanese because of the alphabet (actually an abugida.) But the tones are only a problem initially. After 2.5 years here in BKK I can produce the tones and recognize them pretty much without difficulty although I am still improving and still make mistakes. The key to getting the tones right is having a professional teacher correct you whenever you mispronounce them, which is, basically, all the time. The average Thai person in conversation will not do this, including my wife who, although bilingual, is not a language teacher. And you are simply fooling yourself if you think you can correct your own tones. You need competent feedback. I was lucky to find good teachers who correct me constantly. Tones, just by the way, are also a great deal of fun.

I've heard a lot about Anki flash card way of learning/memorizing words.Please,can you explain in short how do you use it?

[CaptHaddock]

You should build your own database of words you are memorizing and not attempt to use some pre-existing version someone else has compiled, which would amount to sitting down to memorize the dictionary. As you look up words in the dictionary or have a teacher give you a definition you enter the Thai word and its English definition onto an Anki "card." You would be well advised to enter the usage (formal, spoken, slang, poetical, technical, etc.) along with the meaning, for instance within brackets "[]", since this information is very important in Thai, but not consistently available from dictionaries, at least from none that I have found.

So, now you have a bunch of words that you have actually encountered in your learning that you want to memorize. You then "review" the cards. Anki prompts you with the English definition and you give the Thai word and hit enter. At this point what Anki returns depends on how you have configured it. You might just say the Thai word, hit enter and compare with the Thai word that Anki returns from the original card. However, a better way to use Anki is to cause it to force you to type the answer in Thai. Anki will then compare your typed response to the correct word on the "back" of the card and either report it correct or flag the discrepancies. In this way Anki will help you with Thai spelling, which is not easy. If, in addition, you know how to touch type in English and you scrupulously use the correct fingers for the corresponding keys on the Thai keyboard, your Anki practice will also result in your learning to touch type Thai, which I can do easily now even on a keyboard without Thai characters.

The big advantage comes next. Having either spoken or typed your response and seen from Anki whether it is correct or not, you can let Anki reschedule the card for you or reschedule it yourself. At first Anki reschedules the card for the very near future (e.g. 10 minutes), but as you rehearse the card more, it will spread out the rescheduled rehearsals more widely until there will be years between repetitions. This approach is a further development of the "spaced repetition" method of memorizing developed by a German psychologist, named Leitner, in the 1970's. The result is that you spend less time on words you already know and more on those that are either newer or harder for you. Makes your memorization effort much more efficient.

In addition, your Anki database, which Anki calls a "deck", can be searched, for instance when you encounter a word in your reading that you think you have learned already, but whose definition you don't remember clearly. I use it on my laptop during class sessions with my teachers, both to enter new words and to look up those whose meaning I am not sure of.

Anki offers a lot of customization and has further uses than these basic, but very important, ones. The program is free, but the developer welcomes, and fully deserves, contributions.

Since vocabulary is the most basic element of language learning, we cannot avoid the large memorization task that is required to assemble an adequate vocabulary in a newly acquired language. Therefore, it behooves us to do the memorization as efficiently as possible.

5000 words is a good start, but doesn't get you to fluency. I have memorized over 9000 words and expressions via my flashcard program although I have certainly forgotten some of them until they pop up next time for another rehearsal. But even 9000 words is not nearly enough. Every newspaper article I read has more than one word that I have to look up or ask my teacher. By comparison I probably know 20,000 words in my native English along with etymologies for many of them. I consider myself at an intermediate level in Thai.

It seems to me that most of the foreign learners of Thai limit themselves severely by setting their sights too low, which in my opinion, is anything less than fluency. I want to be able to use and understand Thai language every bit as well as English. I expect to achieve that goal, but even if I don't get that far, just aiming high will result in a higher level of achievement than I would otherwise have reached. Language study is a very fair enterprise: the more you put in, the more you get out.

By the way, if you are trying to build your vocabulary without using a flashcard program that offers "spaced repetition" you are missing out on a major advantage of language learning in the computer age. After trying several such programs, I have been using Anki for several years now. Basically, language learners forget new words at predictable rates which Anki can use to reschedule the next rehearsal thereby improving retention. Responding to an English prompt with the corresponding Thai word is called "cold recall" since it is without the cues that occur in context. It's the toughest memory task. Recognition of words in the context of reading is easier, but cold recall is what we rely on when we want to introduce a new topic into the conversation, for instance.

Learning Thai is harder for a native English speaker than learning another European language for sure, but it is a lot easier than Chinese or Japanese because of the alphabet (actually an abugida.) But the tones are only a problem initially. After 2.5 years here in BKK I can produce the tones and recognize them pretty much without difficulty although I am still improving and still make mistakes. The key to getting the tones right is having a professional teacher correct you whenever you mispronounce them, which is, basically, all the time. The average Thai person in conversation will not do this, including my wife who, although bilingual, is not a language teacher. And you are simply fooling yourself if you think you can correct your own tones. You need competent feedback. I was lucky to find good teachers who correct me constantly. Tones, just by the way, are also a great deal of fun.

I've heard a lot about Anki flash card way of learning/memorizing words.Please,can you explain in short how do you use it?

[zeichen]

I think people are confusing active with passive vocabulary. "I have memorized over 9000 words and expressions via my flashcard program although"

Memorizing vocabulary doesn't build active vocabulary it only adds to your passive skills.

Also the other thing people confuse is the term fluency doesn't equate to knowledge but the ability to communicate one's thoughts clearly.

Since the average person uses around 1000 words a day for normal conversations and on average only 10,000 words in their life, 5k active words would be Upper intermediate to advanced.

Your passive vocabulary should be around 10x your active. Meaning that you recognize them and comprehend but just don't/can't use them normally without looking them up.

[Aforek]

I have memorized over 9000 words and expressions ... Every newspaper article I read has more than one word that I have to look up or ask my teacher.

...Learning Thai is harder for a native English speaker than learning another European language for sure...

You who knows over 9000 words and expressions and who can read almost fluently thai newspapers, can you tell us why thai language , in your opinion, is harder than other European languages ?

apart from the tone rules, the big alphabet and how to pronounce correctly the tones ( everything here is question of memory and ear ), I don't think that the structure of the language is very difficult : grammar is not very difficult, and when you master it, there is no surprise at every corner of the sentences

I am certainly wrong somewhere, you are much more advanced than me ( I am only interested in every day language and chidren books , not by newspapers: I read Manee and Mary Haas books )

[GLOPglopMAmaTONG]

5000 words is a good start, but doesn't get you to fluency. I have memorized over 9000 words and expressions via my flashcard program although I have certainly forgotten some of them until they pop up next time for another rehearsal. But even 9000 words is not nearly enough. Every newspaper article I read has more than one word that I have to look up or ask my teacher. By comparison I probably know 20,000 words in my native English along with etymologies for many of them. I consider myself at an intermediate level in Thai.

It seems to me that most of the foreign learners of Thai limit themselves severely by setting their sights too low, which in my opinion, is anything less than fluency. I want to be able to use and understand Thai language every bit as well as English. I expect to achieve that goal, but even if I don't get that far, just aiming high will result in a higher level of achievement than I would otherwise have reached. Language study is a very fair enterprise: the more you put in, the more you get out.

By the way, if you are trying to build your vocabulary without using a flashcard program that offers "spaced repetition" you are missing out on a major advantage of language learning in the computer age. After trying several such programs, I have been using Anki for several years now. Basically, language learners forget new words at predictable rates which Anki can use to reschedule the next rehearsal thereby improving retention. Responding to an English prompt with the corresponding Thai word is called "cold recall" since it is without the cues that occur in context. It's the toughest memory task. Recognition of words in the context of reading is easier, but cold recall is what we rely on when we want to introduce a new topic into the conversation, for instance.

Learning Thai is harder for a native English speaker than learning another European language for sure, but it is a lot easier than Chinese or Japanese because of the alphabet (actually an abugida.) But the tones are only a problem initially. After 2.5 years here in BKK I can produce the tones and recognize them pretty much without difficulty although I am still improving and still make mistakes. The key to getting the tones right is having a professional teacher correct you whenever you mispronounce them, which is, basically, all the time. The average Thai person in conversation will not do this, including my wife who, although bilingual, is not a language teacher. And you are simply fooling yourself if you think you can correct your own tones. You need competent feedback. I was lucky to find good teachers who correct me constantly. Tones, just by the way, are also a great deal of fun.

Sorry, Sir, but:

"Learning Thai is harder for a native English speaker than learning another European language for sure, but it is a lot easier than Chinese or Japanese because of the alphabet (actually an abugida.)"

Is not true.

"but it is a lot easier than Chinese or Japanese because of the alphabet (actually an abugida.)" "

This part is NOT true.

[GLOPglopMAmaTONG]

I have memorized over 9000 words and expressions ... Every newspaper article I read has more than one word that I have to look up or ask my teacher.

...Learning Thai is harder for a native English speaker than learning another European language for sure...

You who knows over 9000 words and expressions and who can read almost fluently thai newspapers, can you tell us why thai language , in your opinion, is harder than other European languages ?

apart from the tone rules, the big alphabet and how to pronounce correctly the tones ( everything here is question of memory and ear ), I don't think that the structure of the language is very difficult : grammar is not very difficult, and when you master it, there is no surprise at every corner of the sentences

I am certainly wrong somewhere, you are much more advanced than me ( I am only interested in every day language and chidren books , not by newspapers: I read Manee and Mary Haas books )

You are right, the fish captain is wrong. Probably English is hardest of the European languages, if you do not add in Czech, maybe.

But, since we are on the subject of working vocab, commenter who stated that 5000 would be enough to enter a university to study for a degree is CORRECT.

Also is correct the statement where he/she says a lot of work is required.

A lot of work is required because you need to begin learning the special terminology of your field of study, be it architecture, biology, etc.

5000 is PLENTY for entering a degree program, especially since many of the texts are in English, and you only need to understand the lectures, and maybe use Thai for research purposes if you are doing a history degree, etc.

[DavidHouston]

I would like to ask the experts here about the measurement process. When you say x number of words constitutes a certain level of fluency, how is a "word" measured for this purpose? If the word ไป, for example, has three or four different meanings and usages in Thai, is that word counted as one or four? (The same question for words like ได้ and ให้.) If one knows the word รถ and ยนต์ and the combination of รถยนต์, are three words added to the list, or only two? Are คะ and จ้า treated as two words, or variations on one? How about the pronouns เขา and เค้า?

Do names of people and universities, for example, count as separate words for this purpose? Do the adjectival forms of words and their adverbial counterparts count as separate words (e.g. มาก and อย่างมาก); How about simple adjectives and their comparative and superlative forms (e.g. เก่ง. เก่งกว่า, เก่งที่สุด); are these one word or three for the accounting?

Or, is the definition of a "word" for this purpose based on a "one Anki card, one word" approach?

Sorry for asking what may seem a trivial question, but I would like to understand the accounting. I am very impressed by how much knowledge so many of you have of the Thai language and its vocabulary and grammatical structures. Your knowledge and dedication can only serve as an inspiration to the rest of us.

[GLOPglopMAmaTONG]

I would like to ask the experts here about the measurement process. When you say x number of words constitutes a certain level of fluency, how is a "word" measured for this purpose? If the word ไป, for example, has three or four different meanings and usages in Thai, is that word counted as one or four? (The same question for words like ได้ and ให้.) If one knows the word รถ and ยนต์ and the combination of รถยนต์, are three words added to the list, or only two? Are คะ and จ้า treated as two words, or variations on one? How about the pronouns เขา and เค้า?

Do names of people and universities, for example, count as separate words for this purpose? Do the adjectival forms of words and their adverbial counterparts count as separate words (e.g. มาก and อย่างมาก); How about simple adjectives and their comparative and superlative forms (e.g. เก่ง. เก่งกว่า, เก่งที่สุด); are these one word or three for the accounting?

Or, is the definition of a "word" for this purpose based on a "one Anki card, one word" approach?

Sorry for asking what may seem a trivial question, but I would like to understand the accounting. I am very impressed by how much knowledge so many of you have of the Thai language and its vocabulary and grammatical structures. Your knowledge and dedication can only serve as an inspiration to the rest of us.

I think you might contact the compilers and publishers of the Thai dictionaries, and other dictionaries, to ask them how they determine what constitutes a separate "entry".