Digital nomad, online workers.. Permission !

[Tuskfish]

However I hardly call that giving back to the community. If you're someone that is secretly making 100,000THB/month+ online (and we all know there are many making a whole lot more than that), giving back to the community is more than just spending that money here. In these cases you need to also provide employment and/or training and/or charitable contribution and/or family support. It's only fair.

I think too many guys are kicking back on 300,000THB/month and not giving a damn satang of it to improving the country they so often whinge about.

Would you say that 'traditional' onsite work expats or retirees need to provide employment / training / charitable contributions / family support as well? Why the highlighting of online workers in this regard?

I think the sentiment is noble, but disagree with the highlighting the group you chose to highlight. I don't see why someone who presently earns money online should be inherently more responsible for 'giving back to the community' than someone who doesn't.

If you're simply saying 'wealthy people should help others' I'm onboard with the sentiment.

Hi there - your last comment is correct

I chose to only refer to online workers in this case because its the topic of the thread

I don't mean to suggest that online workers are more responsible than other forms of businesses to contribute to thailand - however they probably are the ones that more often aren't

In regards to retirees I hadn't really thought about that - my first thought now would be that retirees have worked to earn their retirement and they can do whatever they want with it - maybe the family support aspect applies to them but it's hard to say because so many peoples situations are different - I know a british retiree who lives here on less than 25k per month and pays 10k in rent - pretty hard to support much after that!

Edited August 22, 2014 by Tuskfish

[ColdSingha]

What about the family guys who actually have a skillset and good reasons to stay, who would easily make 100k+ baht a month and wants to pay taxes? The only way would be to start a company, rent offices, hire 4 employees and an accountant etc. You are aware that costs more than 50k a month, right? And yes, that's before we get to the actual tax payments.

Are these criminals that should be thrown the hell out of the country, or would it be wise to have a system in place where they could stay and contribute legally (apart from the ridiculous idea of setting up an expensive company when they really shouldn't need one, that is)?

Don't you think that very old and outdated law is, in fact, making criminals out of ordinary people just trying to support their family?

if they are family guys, why do they need to hire 4 people ?, one supposes the are married to a Thai national, therefore its only 2 they need to employ, one can be the Mrs and the other a maid...and they only need a THB 1.0 mil capped Ltd company.

and I dont believe you on the THB 50k month costs either, and one can minimise any tax burden by paying only enough salary to get the extension based on a persons specific nationality...but you said you have a company inThailand so you knew all this already didnt you ?

Actually, you won't get a work permit with two employees even though you're married. And if your wife's the Director, she won't count as an employee. So no, I didn't know. Please enlighten me.

yes you can, I know guys who have this exact set up, the wife doesnt need to be a director or even a share holder in the company.

how can you say you will not get a WP, this is exactly what is quoted under Thai law in the civil and commerical code under Ltd company formations...

it's location specific - some areas require 4 staff, actual office, matching uniforms (!) even if wife is partner or director, others do not

[Soutpeel]

So let me guess you went and bought a bar girl, married her and got your visa that way.

Your comments really are sad, and you know we don't all want to risk venereal diseases the way you have just to stay in the country vs a decent chance to do it legally...disease and sleaze free

Well you guessed wrong dear boy, and I havent had visa for Thailand for almost 10 years either

and you forgot to mention I must be an alcoholic whore monger as well...

and I suppose youe next contribution will be to attack my post count ?

"lordblackadder" my ar*e, I am guessing based on your, insightful post... "Baldrick or "turnip" is more approriate

whats the fixation with VD ?.... had it few time have you ?

[ATF]

I think too many guys are kicking back on 300,000THB/month and not giving a damn satang of it to improving the country they so often whinge about.

Do you actually believe than any monies paid to the Thai government in the form of taxes would result in even the smallest improvement of anything, except possibly the personal bank balances of various civil 'servants'?

If you do, then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

;>

You're both right there's just a lot of changes happening at the moment.

[JLCrab]

Per post #392: The USA O-type visa for someone with exceptional ability requires that one have employment by a US company. It is not a visa for some non-US high-techie to come over as an individual and immediately go into start-up mode.

[Sirbergan]

To Post #371 above: Maybe the Thai laws should be revised. I have never said that they shouldn't be. But those are the laws that are on the books now and there was a revision just this month of the extension-of-stay Police Order and there were no such changes as you would suggest. Then comes the observation from those who might be affected that Thailand is totally unaware of the online sub-culture and that their decisions are stupid, xenophobic, head stuck in the sand etc. Even if so, where does that get you?

Nowhere. But it's ok to discuss matters that requires change. That's what discussion forums are for.

At some point is also OK to consider how one might go about nudging matters that require change in the desired direction but that would maybe require something more that an anonymous post on a website. Maybe contacting officials, various chambers of commerce, etc. but that takes some effort. Nah, easier just to post.

Are the two mutually exclusive?

[Sirbergan]

What about the family guys who actually have a skillset and good reasons to stay, who would easily make 100k+ baht a month and wants to pay taxes? The only way would be to start a company, rent offices, hire 4 employees and an accountant etc. You are aware that costs more than 50k a month, right? And yes, that's before we get to the actual tax payments.

Are these criminals that should be thrown the hell out of the country, or would it be wise to have a system in place where they could stay and contribute legally (apart from the ridiculous idea of setting up an expensive company when they really shouldn't need one, that is)?

Don't you think that very old and outdated law is, in fact, making criminals out of ordinary people just trying to support their family?

if they are family guys, why do they need to hire 4 people ?, one supposes the are married to a Thai national, therefore its only 2 they need to employ, one can be the Mrs and the other a maid...and they only need a THB 1.0 mil capped Ltd company.

and I dont believe you on the THB 50k month costs either, and one can minimise any tax burden by paying only enough salary to get the extension based on a persons specific nationality...but you said you have a company inThailand so you knew all this already didnt you ?

Actually, you won't get a work permit with two employees even though you're married. And if your wife's the Director, she won't count as an employee. So no, I didn't know. Please enlighten me.

yes you can, I know guys who have this exact set up, the wife doesnt need to be a director or even a share holder in the company.

how can you say you will not get a WP, this is exactly what is quoted under Thai law in the civil and commerical code under Ltd company formations...

Not according to my lawyer, at least not where we're located. Laws aren't always practiced the way they're written, so at the end of the day it comes down to the local labor department's decision. You're right about the wife not having to be the director or shareholder. A major shareholders can be any Thai person(s), and the director doesn't have to be Thai.

[JLCrab]

Per Post #399 No -- but if anybody on here is doing any of the latter they sure haven't said anything about it in comparison to a whole lot of the former.

[lordblackader]

So let me guess you went and bought a bar girl, married her and got your visa that way.

Your comments really are sad, and you know we don't all want to risk venereal diseases the way you have just to stay in the country vs a decent chance to do it legally...disease and sleaze free

Well you guessed wrong dear boy, and I havent had visa for Thailand for almost 10 years either

and you forgot to mention I must be an alcoholic whore monger as well...

and I suppose youe next contribution will be to attack my post count ?

"lordblackadder" my ar*e, I am guessing based on your, insightful post... "Baldrick or "turnip" is more approriate

whats the fixation with VD ?.... had it few time have you ?

So explain to me your problems with people who want to work here legally, in a sole-trading/ remote situation then without your usual nastiness, vexatiousness, and completely non-factual bullshit which is pages upon pages, upon pages long now.

Treat others as you want them to treat you.

[lordblackader]

Per post #392: The USA O-type visa for someone with exceptional ability requires that one have employment by a US company. It is not a visa for some non-US high-techie to come over as an individual and immediately go into start-up mode.

true, but you could set up a Delaware LLC and hire yourself with the right lawyer, which isn't hard.

There are also various other visas as well, H-1B and for Australians an E3, admittedly requiring employment, but you'd take a gig and set up your startup on the side if you'd prefer to do it on the ground.

[JLCrab]

Per post #392: The USA O-type visa for someone with exceptional ability requires that one have employment by a US company. It is not a visa for some non-US high-techie to come over as an individual and immediately go into start-up mode.

true, but you could set up a Delaware LLC and hire yourself with the right lawyer, which isn't hard.

There are also various other visas as well, H-1B and for Australians an E3, admittedly requiring employment, but you'd take a gig and set up your startup on the side if you'd prefer to do it on the ground.

Sure if you can actually get the visa -- Microsoft, Google, Intel, etc, all have their lobbyists in Washing right now saying there is an insufficient number of visas available.

[Tuskfish]

I think too many guys are kicking back on 300,000THB/month and not giving a damn satang of it to improving the country they so often whinge about.

Do you actually believe than any monies paid to the Thai government in the form of taxes would result in even the smallest improvement of anything, except possibly the personal bank balances of various civil 'servants'?

If you do, then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

;>

Hi there, please read my post again

I thought it was pretty clear that isn't what I was referring to at all

P.S. Corruption in government doesn't remove personal responsibility. The Australian government is also corrupt - in fact all governments I've ever dealt with appear to be in some form. This doesn't remove our obligation to be a fair contributor to our local community.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Tuskfish

[ColdSingha]

Per post #392: The USA O-type visa for someone with exceptional ability requires that one have employment by a US company. It is not a visa for some non-US high-techie to come over as an individual and immediately go into start-up mode.

true, but you could set up a Delaware LLC and hire yourself with the right lawyer, which isn't hard.

There are also various other visas as well, H-1B and for Australians an E3, admittedly requiring employment, but you'd take a gig and set up your startup on the side if you'd prefer to do it on the ground.

or go for an E-2 after the first round of funds has been raised

bottom line, if you have skills you will get a visa or get sponsored for one and with none of this handing half your company away for nothing

there is no reward here for hard work, company control is gone before getting started (madness) so no-one bothers

i meet many who build their businesses (shape initial ideas) as nomads and then start them elsewhere where the rules are more favorable

Edited August 22, 2014 by ColdSingha

[JLCrab]

I don't know much about US visas but guys like yourselves who are clever enough to work the loophole game in the US shouldn't really have a problem doing the same here in The Kingdom.

BTW I am US citizen in good standing if anyone needs a token-Yank for an Amity Treaty company.

Edited August 22, 2014 by JLCrab

[RichardThailand]

does your home country allow everybody to come and stay permanently just because they have decided they want to live and work there?? mine sure doesnt.

mine sure as h*ll doesnt, in fact in this sort of situation, tourists are allowed 180 days a year in country and after that bugger off...come back next year

Which country is that ? I need a simple country where I can go to and do the 180 days.

[ColdSingha]

I don't know much about US visas but guys like yourselves who are clever enough to work the loophole game in the US shouldn't really have a problem doing the same here in The Kingdom.

i agree but i'm not a nomad i'm an investor and legal, my tech days are a life ago, before thailand.

however, i'm in the community and i know for a fact asking a fresh faced 20 year old with a laptop and bundles of motivation to form a thai company, then sign it away, hire 4 staff and get them office space.. while still hungover from the last full moon party is laughable

much talent passes through these shores and then goes somewhere more favourable (business wise) begrudgingly when the party stops

[Soutpeel]

So let me guess you went and bought a bar girl, married her and got your visa that way.

Your comments really are sad, and you know we don't all want to risk venereal diseases the way you have just to stay in the country vs a decent chance to do it legally...disease and sleaze free

Well you guessed wrong dear boy, and I havent had visa for Thailand for almost 10 years either

and you forgot to mention I must be an alcoholic whore monger as well...

and I suppose youe next contribution will be to attack my post count ?

"lordblackadder" my ar*e, I am guessing based on your, insightful post... "Baldrick or "turnip" is more approriate

whats the fixation with VD ?.... had it few time have you ?

So explain to me your problems with people who want to work here legally, in a sole-trading/ remote situation then without your usual nastiness, vexatiousness, and completely non-factual bullshit which is pages upon pages, upon pages long now.

Treat others as you want them to treat you.

"nastiness" maybe I should remind you of who suggested in a completely off topic post that I had married a bar girl to get a visa and suggesting the I had VD...

so yes I have treated others as they have treated me dear boy...

but to answer your question, I have no problem with people wanting to work here legally, and I do know a few people who do work legally in a "sole trading" /remote type situations, but these people have taken the time/trouble and investment to get fully legal, by forming a Ltd Thai company, but thats not want the average "on line" poster wants to hear, they are demanding special treatment wanting somthing for nothing, full of self entitlement and stamping their little feet cos they cant get their own way and thats what I comment on

[lordblackader]

Per post #392: The USA O-type visa for someone with exceptional ability requires that one have employment by a US company. It is not a visa for some non-US high-techie to come over as an individual and immediately go into start-up mode.

true, but you could set up a Delaware LLC and hire yourself with the right lawyer, which isn't hard.

There are also various other visas as well, H-1B and for Australians an E3, admittedly requiring employment, but you'd take a gig and set up your startup on the side if you'd prefer to do it on the ground.

Sure if you can actually get the visa -- Microsoft, Google, Intel, etc, all have their lobbyists in Washing right now saying there is an insufficient number of visas available.

true, but relative to what you want to do. For employment, definitely.

If you want to do a startup you either employ yourself via an LLC structure (it's tricky but it can be done) and you give yourself a visa, or you do what many people I know did, ran the startup from Australia but constantly flew back and forward until they could raise angel funding (or even straight to Series A) to set up a proper office/ corporate structure in the Valley or other places (SFO, Boulder or New York in particular.)

Despite the fact I find it stupidly cold if I was doing a startup again tomorrow I'd go to Boulder, beautiful place, still fairly affordable and everything that America is supposed to be. Does also help that a lot of the really early stage funds are based there as well

[JLCrab]

I don't know much about US visas but guys like yourselves who are clever enough to work the loophole game in the US shouldn't really have a problem doing the same here in The Kingdom.

i agree but i'm not a nomad i'm an investor and legal, my tech days are a life ago, before thailand.

however, i'm in the community and i know for a fact asking a fresh faced 20 year old with a laptop and bundles of motivation to form a thai company, then sign it away, hire 4 staff and get them office space.. while still hungover from the last full moon party is laughable

much talent passes through these shores and then goes somewhere more favourable (business wise) begrudgingly when the party stops

I don't know anybody here in Thailand -- the only 2 I know in that age range are my brother's son and my friend of 40+-years' son: One just got a PhD in Math and the other is completing a PhD in Computer Science. So the 20 year old with a laptop I guess is out there but I don't know any.

Maybe the ones you know here in Thailand go elsewhere but there are several hundred BOI Software related companies on the BOI website so at least some decide not to go elsewhere.

[lordblackader]

So let me guess you went and bought a bar girl, married her and got your visa that way.

Your comments really are sad, and you know we don't all want to risk venereal diseases the way you have just to stay in the country vs a decent chance to do it legally...disease and sleaze free

Well you guessed wrong dear boy, and I havent had visa for Thailand for almost 10 years either

and you forgot to mention I must be an alcoholic whore monger as well...

and I suppose youe next contribution will be to attack my post count ?

"lordblackadder" my ar*e, I am guessing based on your, insightful post... "Baldrick or "turnip" is more approriate

whats the fixation with VD ?.... had it few time have you ?

So explain to me your problems with people who want to work here legally, in a sole-trading/ remote situation then without your usual nastiness, vexatiousness, and completely non-factual bullshit which is pages upon pages, upon pages long now.

Treat others as you want them to treat you.

"nastiness" maybe I should remind you of who suggested in a completely off topic post that I had married a bar girl to get a visa and suggesting the I had VD...

so yes I have treated others as they have treated me dear boy...

but to answer your question, I have no problem with people wanting to work here legally, and I do know a few people who do work legally in a "sole trading" /remote type situations, but these people have taken the time/trouble and investment to get fully legal, by forming a Ltd Thai company, but thats not want the average "on line" poster wants to hear, they are demanding special treatment wanting somthing for nothing, full of self entitlement and stamping their little feet cos they cant get their own way and thats what I comment on

And then being forced to 1. have enough capital say if you wanted to do a startup Thai business 2. being forced to hire 4 most likely useless Thais 3. have an office?

I'm trying to be nice about this, but this is 2014, that's not how startups and small businesses work in this day and age.

By all means, the Government should encourage people to set up shop in a big way here over a period of time, but they need to accept that the pathway should be allowed to start small, particularly for small scale startups...which I would add are the bread and butter of god knows how many startups that have gone onto success world wide.

For those freelancing/ digital nomads, a pathway that would allow them to work 100% legally and pay tax. The logistics, sure, not easy, but the additional revenue would make it worth it.

You know small single person "digital nomads" often start that way, grow the business, then need to hire people (on a need be basis vs some imposition enforced by Government.) Why not get them in here, encourage them to stay, give them pathways to build a business here, and with time hire Thai's, and I think more importantly (given how bad education is here) train them.

There are more startups in Indonesia now by multiples than Thailand, and HK and Singapore (and to a lesser extent Malaysia) are leaps ahead again. Many of them were set up by farangs given the chance to start a business there, with far less onerous rules than in Thailand.

There is a reason Thailand is close to becoming a digital backwater, well if you can regard that it isn't already.

[metisdead]

An insulting post using pidgin Thai has been removed.

[JLCrab]

Re: There is a reason Thailand is close to becoming a digital backwater, well if you can regard that it isn't already.

The Chairman of The Bank of Thailand, Dr. Prasarn Trairatvorakul has an MBA and PhD from Harvard Business School. If you contact his office c/o below, he may be delighted to hear your suggestions on how Thailand might avoid becoming or becoming worse of a digital backwater. You can always take a chance; the worst they can do is ignore you.

http://www.bot.or.th/English/Contactus/Pages/ContactUs.aspx

[NancyL]

I was at this meeting! Too bad I'VE been busy and missed the OP. The reporter is making a big deal about an off-hand answer to an audience question about tourist can do work on line to handle overseas clients while on holiday in CM. IE checking email, Skype calls. It wasn't a policy change announcement

[JLCrab]

That's OK Nancy -- other than the first few pages it evolved into the usual why doesn't Thailand have a policy to treat the class of individuals mentioned the way the class of individuals mentioned feels they should be treated for the long-term benefit to Thailand on which they have a better handle than those involved in creating and implementing such policy.

[Soutpeel]

And then being forced to 1. have enough capital say if you wanted to do a startup Thai business 2. being forced to hire 4 most likely useless Thais 3. have an office?

I'm trying to be nice about this, but this is 2014, that's not how startups and small businesses work in this day and age.

By all means, the Government should encourage people to set up shop in a big way here over a period of time, but they need to accept that the pathway should be allowed to start small, particularly for small scale startups...which I would add are the bread and butter of god knows how many startups that have gone onto success world wide.

For those freelancing/ digital nomads, a pathway that would allow them to work 100% legally and pay tax. The logistics, sure, not easy, but the additional revenue would make it worth it.

You know small single person "digital nomads" often start that way, grow the business, then need to hire people (on a need be basis vs some imposition enforced by Government.) Why not get them in here, encourage them to stay, give them pathways to build a business here, and with time hire Thai's, and I think more importantly (given how bad education is here) train them.

There are more startups in Indonesia now by multiples than Thailand, and HK and Singapore (and to a lesser extent Malaysia) are leaps ahead again. Many of them were set up by farangs given the chance to start a business there, with far less onerous rules than in Thailand.

There is a reason Thailand is close to becoming a digital backwater, well if you can regard that it isn't already.

your not being forced to do anything, the fact is the Thai goverments interests and rightly so should rest with looking after its citizens, not someone who gets off a bannana boat from farangland and start making demands that their current immigration and work polices have to be changed to suit someone, why should they ?....

for every "sucessful" start up 20+ others have failed

the rules that are in place currently are the rules you have, if somoeone sincerly wants to start a company here and contribute to "building" Thailand one can, the rules are not that difficult to comply with, however as you commented and others have "forced to hire useless Thai's" already tells me the intent of setting up in Thailand has nothing to do with "building" a business in Thailand as you are already treating the "natives" with contempt by making remarks such as this, you are demanding the goverment make changes to suit "farangs" but in the next breath you are calling them useless, if its so bad here, why do you want to live in Thailand then ?

Seeing as you have stated Indonesia, HK and Singapore are more "friendly" to "farang" start up's then if you really want to start up a legimate business, then maybe thats where you need to set up then not in Thailand with "useless Thai's" but the fact is, the likes of Singapore, HK and indonesia will not let people do what they doing in Thailand currently either, yes Indo, HK and Sing want foreign investment but not in the way a lot of posters commenting on here want to do it, ie be given a long term visa just because they work "on line" and have invested nothing in the country they wish to reside in.

[anon676545345]

Can’t believe crabsticks and co are still banging on about this, they mounted their high horse when the visa “crackdown” was announced, filled with an unfounded sense of superiority. Then as it turned out the “crackdown” only affected visa exempts and really wasn’t going to cause a mass exodus of those they felt were undesirable, their horse was not as high but they’d still ride it.

“Your all illegal, immoral you’ll get yours just you wait” they sniped with joyous glee, it didn’t matter that there was no evidence to support their claims. Then as it turns out it’s not illegal and that high horse now looks more like a rocking horse but still they’ll ride it yet no matter how many times you rock from irrelevance to ignorance you’ll never get that horse moving.

And why do these precious unique flowers deem to grace us with their presence all day everyday from dawn till dusk? That is a question for which they have no real answer “I don’t care” they say though their constant presence belies that statement. No one will really know why these arse clowns have adopted this subject with such enthusiasm but it doesn’t really matter as their bitter objections count for nothing.

[hugolars]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Hello Forum!

My first post so go easy on me. I am a digital nomad for over 10 years now and have worked many times from Thailand in cafes etc. I pay my taxes in the UK as my income is derived from the UK.

I don't really understand why anyone would have a problem with the concept of working remotely when it has no negative impact whatsoever on the host country.

As many have said the only consequence is an extra foreign body spending their foreign earnings in Thailand on accommodation, coffee, food, travel etc.

How can this be an issue?

You use the streets in Thailand. You drink the water in Thailand. You are protected by the police and military in Thailand. You use Thailand's roads and mass transit. You are protected from having a building fall on you by Thai building inspectors. Thai health department money protects you from Ebola and scads of other threats, whether you know it or not. Thai money kills the mosquitoes so you don't get dengue. The list goes on and on.

All that costs money, and yours is going to the UK where it doesn't do the Thai people much benefit.

You pay 7% VAT on the stuff you buy here. That doesn't come close to covering your share of the wear and tear on the infrastructure.

You pump some money into the economy. Thai's that earn the same money to pump into the economy also pump a lot more into the tax coffers.

You're getting a free ride in Thailand, and that's the issue. I love visitors to my home. So do the Thai's. But if my guests plan to stay for 10 years, they probably ought to chip in some rent and put some food into the fridge occasionally.

If you disagree with that, I dare you to go to the Revenue Department back home and claim you pump so much money into the economy that you shouldn't be required to pay taxes on top of your VAT, GST or sales tax.

So shut down all tourism because they also do not pay tax for those "services". So what if i "pay tax" as you want mo to do and i get hit by a car. Does the service include medical expenses? Hell no!

Man get real. A farang working here online pays more tax in form of VAT than majority of Thais do in total in a lifetime.

[JLCrab]

Can’t believe crabsticks and co are still banging on about this, they mounted their high horse when the visa “crackdown” was announced, filled with an unfounded sense of superiority. Then as it turned out the “crackdown” only affected visa exempts and really wasn’t going to cause a mass exodus of those they felt were undesirable, their horse was not as high but they’d still ride it.

“Your all illegal, immoral you’ll get yours just you wait” they sniped with joyous glee, it didn’t matter that there was no evidence to support their claims. Then as it turns out it’s not illegal and that high horse now looks more like a rocking horse but still they’ll ride it yet no matter how many times you rock from irrelevance to ignorance you’ll never get that horse moving.

And why do these precious unique flowers deem to grace us with their presence all day everyday from dawn till dusk? That is a question for which they have no real answer “I don’t care” they say though their constant presence belies that statement. No one will really know why these arse clowns have adopted this subject with such enthusiasm but it doesn’t really matter as their bitter objections count for nothing.

From My Cousin Vinny:

Judge Chamberlain Haller: Are you on drugs?

[Soutpeel]

I was at this meeting! Too bad I'VE been busy and missed the OP. The reporter is making a big deal about an off-hand answer to an audience question about tourist can do work on line to handle overseas clients while on holiday in CM. IE checking email, Skype calls. It wasn't a policy change announcement

thats interesting Nancy so the whole premise of this topic was completely flawed from the offset and the reporter is quoting things completely out of context

hardly worth carrying on with this debate then, nothing has changing from what was already known anyway..

[Soutpeel]

Man get real. A farang working here online pays more tax in form of VAT than majority of Thais do in total in a lifetime.

one supposes you have statisical data which proves this, or are you just pulling comments out your a*se cos it sounds good ?